GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/u/@archomrade@midwest.social/commented

Response
200 OK
IP
111.119.218.70
Profiled on
Token
fdc161

Components

21 Twig Components
276 Render Count
274 ms Render Time
22.0 MiB Memory Usage

Components

Name Metadata Render Count Render Time
date 
"App\Twig\Components\DateComponent"
components/date.html.twig 		36 7.16ms
user_inline 
"App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent"
components/user_inline.html.twig 		35 30.34ms
date_edited 
"App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent"
components/date_edited.html.twig 		35 3.65ms
vote 
"App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent"
components/vote.html.twig 		35 13.60ms
boost 
"App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent"
components/boost.html.twig 		35 27.58ms
entry_comment 
"App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent"
components/entry_comment.html.twig 		24 143.39ms
user_avatar 
"App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent"
components/user_avatar.html.twig 		24 3.56ms
settings_row_switch 
"App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent"
components/_settings_row_switch.html.twig 		15 2.06ms
entry 
"App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig 		11 119.05ms
magazine_inline 
"App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent"
components/magazine_inline.html.twig 		11 1.65ms
user_settings_row_switch 
"App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent"
components/_user_settings_row_switch.html.twig 		4 0.70ms
settings_row_enum 
"App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowEnumComponent"
components/_settings_row_enum.html.twig 		2 0.37ms
user_box 
"App\Twig\Components\UserBoxComponent"
components/user_box.html.twig 		1 1.46ms
user_actions 
"App\Twig\Components\UserActionsComponent"
components/user_actions.html.twig 		1 0.82ms
related_magazines 
"App\Twig\Components\RelatedMagazinesComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig 		1 2.12ms
active_users 
"App\Twig\Components\ActiveUsersComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig 		1 0.22ms
related_categories 
"App\Twig\Components\RelatedCategoriesComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig 		1 1.31ms
related_posts 
"App\Twig\Components\RelatedPostsComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig 		1 1.49ms
related_entries 
"App\Twig\Components\RelatedEntriesComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig 		1 1.32ms
support_us_block 
"App\Twig\Components\SupportUsBlock"
components/_cached.html.twig 		1 0.23ms
featured_magazines 
"App\Twig\Components\FeaturedMagazinesComponent"
components/_cached.html.twig 		1 0.82ms

Render calls

user_box App\Twig\Components\UserBoxComponent 12.0 MiB 1.46 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "stretchedLink" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserBoxComponent {#2855
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +stretchedLink: false
}
user_actions App\Twig\Components\UserActionsComponent 12.0 MiB 0.82 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserActionsComponent {#3037
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 12.0 MiB 16.19 ms
Input props 
[
  "entry" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3813 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
      +username: "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1704989374 {#3808
        date: 2024-01-11 17:09:34.0 +01:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3815 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3817 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3819 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3821 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3823 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3825 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3827 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3829 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3831 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3833 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3835 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3837 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3839 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3841 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3843 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3845 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3847 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3849 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3851 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3853 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3855 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3857 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3859 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3861 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3863 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3865 …}
      -id: 78017
      -password: "$2y$13$h/KvWTR9fJm5ui9lcY/ZEOIKSzinR0mCG5CToi2IyARwIVSERqeNm"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3867 …}
      +apId: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
      +apProfileId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/u/kirk782"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/u/kirk782"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/inbox"
      +apDomain: "discuss.tchncs.de"
      +apPreferredUsername: "kirk782"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1726405185 {#3805
        date: 2024-09-15 14:59:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700774398 {#3807
        date: 2023-11-23 22:19:58.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
      Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
      """
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112 …2}
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        +image: null
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        +body: """
          > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
          \n
          Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
          """
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    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Attributes 
[
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]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent {#3564
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
  -newCommentMarkerCount: App\Kbin\NewCommentMarker\NewCommentMarkerCount {#3565 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -security: Symfony\Bundle\SecurityBundle\Security {#1101 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674
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        date: 2023-11-23 22:19:58.0 +01:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
      Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
      """
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
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          +featuredMagazines: null
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          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
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          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
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          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
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          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
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          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
        +body: """
          > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
          \n
          Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 5
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1702753931 {#2106
          date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
        -id: 227740
        -bodyTs: "'app':4 'bought':2 'case':26 'd':42 'free':8 'grandfath':12 'hadn':22 'lifetim':16 'otherwis':47 'pay':31,44 'plan':18 'plus':17 'subscript':34 'think':40 'today':35 'went':7 'would':28"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5543533"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
          date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 227740
      }
    ]
    -id: 22409
    -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
    -bodyTs: "'7':29 'acquir':79 'aghast':46 'also':178 'altern':95 'android':25 'app':6,23,52 'ask':174 'assum':62 'base':40 'blow':54 'boy':146 'branch':81 'ceil':170 'check':137 'choic':119 'controversi':118 'countri':149 'day':30,144 'dev':103 'droid':101 'easier':194 'enough':201 'even':202 'everyth':59 'exist':92 'expect':50 'f':100 'factor':110 'find':191 'folk':82 'free':123 'given':12 'go':64 'good':127,200 'googl':154 'hit':168 'includ':96 'know':75 'launcher':22,72 'left':165 'like':130 'liter':49 'mani':94 'mind':56 'minimalist':21,97 'model':41 'money':164 'much':133,193 'must':104 'niagara':91 'nova':71 'one':60,89,98,184,212 'paid':176 'pass':156 'peopl':129 'person':189 'pirat':206 'play':155 'plus':93 'pocketcast':135,172 'premium':158 'price':141 'purchas':186,196,214 'quit':126 'rather':215 'releas':106 'repetit':217 'revolutionari':107 'second':115 'seen':10 'servic':114 'sinc':120 'someth':33,207 'spotifi':160 'still':85,162 'stuff':108 'sturdi':88 'subscrib':152 'subscript':15,39,113,188 'tier':124 'time':185,213 'tri':19 'trial':31 'upgrad':177 'useless':5 'view':182 'vs':187 'way':66 'world':69 'would':48 'year':38,140 'yes':73 'youtub':157"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702733354
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
      date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +isSingle: false
  +showShortSentence: true
  +showBody: false
  +showMagazineName: true
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +newComments: 0
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 3.53 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3813 …}
    +cover: null
    +email: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
    +username: "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1704989374 {#3808
      date: 2024-01-11 17:09:34.0 +01:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: false
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
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    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3815 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3817 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3819 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3821 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3823 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3825 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3827 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3829 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3831 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3833 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3835 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3837 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3839 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3841 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3843 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3845 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3847 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3849 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3851 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3853 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3855 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3857 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3859 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3861 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3863 …}
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    -id: 78017
    -password: "$2y$13$h/KvWTR9fJm5ui9lcY/ZEOIKSzinR0mCG5CToi2IyARwIVSERqeNm"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3867 …}
    +apId: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
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    +apFollowersUrl: null
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    +privateKey: null
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      date: 2024-09-15 14:59:45.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
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      date: 2023-11-23 22:19:58.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#3760
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3813 …}
    +cover: null
    +email: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
    +username: "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1704989374 {#3808
      date: 2024-01-11 17:09:34.0 +01:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
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    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
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    +featuredMagazines: null
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    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
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    +addMentionsEntries: false
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    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3815 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3817 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3819 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3821 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3823 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3825 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3827 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3829 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3831 …}
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    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3839 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3841 …}
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    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3845 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3847 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3849 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3851 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3853 …}
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    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3861 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
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    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3867 …}
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    +apFollowersUrl: null
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    +privateKey: null
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      date: 2024-09-15 14:59:45.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700774398 {#3807
      date: 2023-11-23 22:19:58.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.38 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
    date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#3889
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
    date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.21 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
    date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#3953
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
    date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.21 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
    +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +title: "piracy"
    +description: """
      ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
      \n
      **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
      \n
      **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
      \n
      **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
      \n
      **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
      \n
      - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
      - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
      - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
      - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
      \n
      [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
      \n
      ---
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 866
    +entryCommentCount: 20194
    +postCount: 7
    +postCommentCount: 149
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
      date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
    -id: 51
    +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
      date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
      date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#4018
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
    +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +title: "piracy"
    +description: """
      ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
      \n
      **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
      \n
      **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
      \n
      **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
      \n
      **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
      \n
      - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
      - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
      - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
      - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
      \n
      [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
      \n
      ---
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
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  +showTitle: true
  +fullName: false
  +stretchedLink: false
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}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.67 ms
Input props 
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      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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    +image: null
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    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
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      """
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112 …2}
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        +body: """
          > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
          \n
          Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
          """
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    +cross: false
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#4084
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      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3813 …}
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3815 …}
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
      Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
      """
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      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
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        +body: """
          > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
          \n
          Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
          """
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    +cross: false
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     …2
  }
  +formDest: "entry"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 12.0 MiB 1.38 ms
Input props 
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      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
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    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
      Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
      """
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
        +body: """
          > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
          \n
          Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
          """
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     …2
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#4149
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       …2
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      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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       …2
    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
      Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
      """
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        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
        +body: """
          > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
          \n
          Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
          """
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    }
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     …2
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 12.0 MiB 5.64 ms
Input props 
[
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      +roles: []
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      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
      +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
        \n
        For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
        \n
        Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
        \n
        Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
        """
      +type: "article"
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      +ip: null
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107}
      ]
      -id: 22409
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       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
    +body: """
      > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
      \n
      Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
      """
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      "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
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    -id: 227740
    -bodyTs: "'app':4 'bought':2 'case':26 'd':42 'free':8 'grandfath':12 'hadn':22 'lifetim':16 'otherwis':47 'pay':31,44 'plan':18 'plus':17 'subscript':34 'think':40 'today':35 'went':7 'would':28"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
      date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 227740
  }
  "showEntryTitle" => false
  "dateAsUrl" => true
  "showMagazineName" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent {#4465
  +comment: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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      +cover: null
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
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        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
      +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
        \n
        For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
        \n
        Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
        \n
        Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
        """
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
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    +body: """
      > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
      \n
      Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
      """
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  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
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}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
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  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#4524
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    +avatar: null
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    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#4582
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#4636
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.24 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#4692
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.41 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
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      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
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      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3813 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
        +username: "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1704989374 {#3808
          date: 2024-01-11 17:09:34.0 +01:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
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        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
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        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
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        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3815 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3817 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3819 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3821 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3823 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3825 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3827 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3829 …}
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        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3835 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3837 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3839 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3841 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3843 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3845 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3847 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3849 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3851 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3853 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3855 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3857 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3859 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3861 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3863 …}
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        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3867 …}
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          date: 2024-09-15 14:59:45.0 +02:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700774398 {#3807
          date: 2023-11-23 22:19:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
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        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
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        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
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        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
      +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
        \n
        For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
        \n
        Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
        \n
        Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
        """
      +type: "article"
      +lang: "en"
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      +ip: null
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
      +children: [
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      ]
      -id: 22409
      -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
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        date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
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    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
    +body: """
      > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
      \n
      Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
      """
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    +"title": 227740
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#4781
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
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      +roles: []
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
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        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3813 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
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        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3815 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3817 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3819 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3821 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3823 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3825 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3827 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3829 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3831 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3833 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3835 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3837 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3839 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3841 …}
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        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3845 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3847 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3849 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3851 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3853 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3855 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3857 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3859 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3861 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3863 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3865 …}
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        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3867 …}
        +apId: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
        +apProfileId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/u/kirk782"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/u/kirk782"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/inbox"
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          date: 2024-09-15 14:59:45.0 +02:00
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700774398 {#3807
          date: 2023-11-23 22:19:58.0 +01:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
      +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
        \n
        For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
        \n
        Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
        \n
        Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
        """
      +type: "article"
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      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107}
      ]
      -id: 22409
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      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
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      +ranking: 1702733354
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
        date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
    +body: """
      > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
      \n
      Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
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    +ip: null
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    +mentions: [
      "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
      "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
    -id: 227740
    -bodyTs: "'app':4 'bought':2 'case':26 'd':42 'free':8 'grandfath':12 'hadn':22 'lifetim':16 'otherwis':47 'pay':31,44 'plan':18 'plus':17 'subscript':34 'think':40 'today':35 'went':7 'would':28"
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    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
      date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 227740
  }
  +formDest: "entry_comment"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 12.0 MiB 0.71 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
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      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
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          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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      +url: null
      +body: """
        What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
        \n
        For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
        \n
        Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
        \n
        Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
        """
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      > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
      \n
      Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
      """
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#4838
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3855 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3857 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3859 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3861 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3863 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3865 …}
        -id: 78017
        -password: "$2y$13$h/KvWTR9fJm5ui9lcY/ZEOIKSzinR0mCG5CToi2IyARwIVSERqeNm"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3867 …}
        +apId: "kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
        +apProfileId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/u/kirk782"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/u/kirk782"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/inbox"
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        +apPreferredUsername: "kirk782"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +privateKey: null
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        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1726405185 {#3805
          date: 2024-09-15 14:59:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700774398 {#3807
          date: 2023-11-23 22:19:58.0 +01:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
      +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
        \n
        For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
        \n
        Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
        \n
        Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
        """
      +type: "article"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: false
      +commentCount: 170
      +favouriteCount: 291
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      +isAdult: false
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1702940454 {#2709
        date: 2023-12-19 00:00:54.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107}
      ]
      -id: 22409
      -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
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      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
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      +ranking: 1702733354
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
        date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
    +body: """
      > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
      \n
      Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
      """
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +mentions: [
      "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
      "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
    -id: 227740
    -bodyTs: "'app':4 'bought':2 'case':26 'd':42 'free':8 'grandfath':12 'hadn':22 'lifetim':16 'otherwis':47 'pay':31,44 'plan':18 'plus':17 'subscript':34 'think':40 'today':35 'went':7 'would':28"
    +ranking: 0
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5543533"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
      date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 227740
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 12.0 MiB 8.01 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
      +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
        date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +showSubscribedDomains: true
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      +featuredMagazines: null
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      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
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      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
      -id: 46131
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
      +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
        date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
        date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
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      +entryCommentCount: 65073
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      +postCommentCount: 152
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
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      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
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      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
      -id: 38
      +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
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      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
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      +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
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        date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
    +title: "Rent is Robbery"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
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    +hasEmbed: true
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    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
      date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
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          +markedForDeletionAt: null
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          +hideAdult: true
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          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
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          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
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          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
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          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
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          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
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          +privateKey: null
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            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        -id: 251619
        -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 251619
      }
    ]
    -id: 24213
    -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1703425611
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
      date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Attributes 
[
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent {#5092
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
  -newCommentMarkerCount: App\Kbin\NewCommentMarker\NewCommentMarkerCount {#3565 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -security: Symfony\Bundle\SecurityBundle\Security {#1101 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
      +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
        date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
      -id: 46131
      -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
      +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
        date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
        date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 5926
      +entryCommentCount: 65073
      +postCount: 25
      +postCommentCount: 152
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
        date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
      -id: 38
      +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
        date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
    +title: "Rent is Robbery"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 150
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    +score: 0
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    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
      date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
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          +oauthGithubId: null
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          +oauthFacebookId: null
          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
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          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
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          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        -id: 251619
        -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 251619
      }
    ]
    -id: 24213
    -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1703425611
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
      date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +isSingle: false
  +showShortSentence: true
  +showBody: false
  +showMagazineName: true
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +newComments: 0
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.45 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
    +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
      date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: false
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
    -id: 46131
    -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
    +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
      date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
      date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#5170
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
    +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
      date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: false
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
    -id: 46131
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
    +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
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    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
      date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
    date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#5285
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
    date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
    date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#5339
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
    date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
    +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "memes"
    +description: """
      #### Rules:\n
      \n
      1. Be civil and nice.\n
      2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 5926
    +entryCommentCount: 65073
    +postCount: 25
    +postCommentCount: 152
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
      date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
    -id: 38
    +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
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    +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
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      date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
      date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#5393
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
    +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "memes"
    +description: """
      #### Rules:\n
      \n
      1. Be civil and nice.\n
      2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 5926
    +entryCommentCount: 65073
    +postCount: 25
    +postCommentCount: 152
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
      date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
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    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
    -id: 38
    +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
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      date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
      date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showTitle: true
  +fullName: false
  +stretchedLink: false
  +showAvatar: false
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.36 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
      +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
        date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +oauthGithubId: null
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      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
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      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
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      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
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      +addMentionsEntries: false
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
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      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
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      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
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      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
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        date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
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      +rules: null
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
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    +title: "Rent is Robbery"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
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    +type: "image"
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
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    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
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          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
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          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
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          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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          -totpSecret: null
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          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
        +lang: "en"
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        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        -id: 251619
        -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 251619
      }
    ]
    -id: 24213
    -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
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    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
      date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#5458
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
      +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
        date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
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      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
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       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
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        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
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    }
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    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
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        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
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        -id: 251619
        -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
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        +"title": 251619
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    ]
    -id: 24213
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +formDest: "entry"
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  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 12.0 MiB 0.68 ms
Input props 
[
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       …2
    }
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      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
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        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
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    }
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        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        -id: 251619
        -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 251619
      }
    ]
    -id: 24213
    -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1703425611
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
      date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#5521
  +formDest: "entry"
  +subject: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
      +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
        date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
      -id: 46131
      -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
      +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
        date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
        date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
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      +entryCommentCount: 65073
      +postCount: 25
      +postCommentCount: 152
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
        date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
      -id: 38
      +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
        date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
    +title: "Rent is Robbery"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 150
    +favouriteCount: 1166
    +score: 0
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    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
      date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
          +oauthGoogleId: null
          +oauthFacebookId: null
          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
          +showProfileSubscriptions: true
          +showProfileFollowings: true
          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
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          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
        +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
        -id: 251619
        -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
          date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 251619
      }
    ]
    -id: 24213
    -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1703425611
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
      date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 12.0 MiB 4.84 ms
Input props 
[
  "comment" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
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        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
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        -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
        +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 5926
        +entryCommentCount: 65073
        +postCount: 25
        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
      +title: "Rent is Robbery"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
      +body: null
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 150
      +favouriteCount: 1166
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
        date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228}
      ]
      -id: 24213
      -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1703425611
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
        date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 0
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
    -id: 251619
    -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 251619
  }
  "showEntryTitle" => false
  "dateAsUrl" => true
  "showMagazineName" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent {#5772
  +comment: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
        -id: 46131
        -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
        +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 5926
        +entryCommentCount: 65073
        +postCount: 25
        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
      +title: "Rent is Robbery"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
      +body: null
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 150
      +favouriteCount: 1166
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
        date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228}
      ]
      -id: 24213
      -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1703425611
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
        date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 0
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
    -id: 251619
    -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 251619
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#5817
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
    date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#5873
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
    date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
    date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#5927
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
    date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#5981
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.32 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
        -id: 46131
        -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
        +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 5926
        +entryCommentCount: 65073
        +postCount: 25
        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
      +title: "Rent is Robbery"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
      +body: null
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 150
      +favouriteCount: 1166
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
        date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228}
      ]
      -id: 24213
      -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1703425611
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
        date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 0
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
    -id: 251619
    -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 251619
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#6052
  +subject: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
        -id: 46131
        -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
        +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 5926
        +entryCommentCount: 65073
        +postCount: 25
        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
      +title: "Rent is Robbery"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
      +body: null
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 150
      +favouriteCount: 1166
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
        date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228}
      ]
      -id: 24213
      -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1703425611
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
        date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 0
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
    -id: 251619
    -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 251619
  }
  +formDest: "entry_comment"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 12.0 MiB 0.66 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
        -id: 46131
        -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
        +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 5926
        +entryCommentCount: 65073
        +postCount: 25
        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
      +title: "Rent is Robbery"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
      +body: null
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 150
      +favouriteCount: 1166
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
        date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228}
      ]
      -id: 24213
      -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1703425611
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
        date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 0
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
    -id: 251619
    -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 251619
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#6109
  +formDest: "entry_comment"
  +subject: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
        -id: 46131
        -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
        +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 5926
        +entryCommentCount: 65073
        +postCount: 25
        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#5134
          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
      +title: "Rent is Robbery"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
      +body: null
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 150
      +favouriteCount: 1166
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
        date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228}
      ]
      -id: 24213
      -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1703425611
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
        date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
    +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 0
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
    -id: 251619
    -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5699654"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
      date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 251619
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 12.0 MiB 6.64 ms
Input props 
[
  "entry" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
      +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
        date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        +"title": 208299
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207931
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2467 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        -id: 207880
        -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207880
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2012 …}
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
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          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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        -totpSecret: null
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        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
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          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
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         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#5133
          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      +type: "image"
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        date: 2023-12-09 09:51:13.0 +01:00
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      +children: [
        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328}
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2335 …}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -id: 208299
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          +ranking: 0
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701984594 {#2095
            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2330 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703389253 {#2040
            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2447 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -id: 207670
          -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
          +ranking: 0
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5331749"
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
          +favouriteCount: 6
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          -id: 207931
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          +ranking: 0
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5333061"
          +editedAt: null
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2378 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
      \n
      > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
      \n
      On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
      \n
      I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
      """
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          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
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         …2
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        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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          date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      +children: [
        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328}
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2330 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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          +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703389253 {#2040
            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2447 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
      \n
      > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
      \n
      On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
      \n
      I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
      """
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2341 …}
    -id: 208589
    -bodyTs: "'aim':133 'analysi':27 'appli':55 'arris':107 'capit':39 'caus':118 'class':142 'confus':119 'consid':80 'contrari':52 'current':38,59 'deviat':76,103 'dismiss':112 'drive':135 'easi':30 'econom':63 'elabor':115 'exercis':95 'explicit':99 'found':146 'intent':10,123 'interest':149 'ltv':49,160 'make':25,69 'marx':46 'mental':34,83 'mistrust':7 'misus':163 'model':57 'occur':104 'peopl':22 'plenti':128 'point':43 'polit':26 'prerequisit':89 'problem':42 'public':111 'real':61 'real-world':60 'realiti':75 'reduc':37 'reflect':4 'remind':21 'rendit':47 'sens':70 'shortcut':35,84 'sorri':13 'specif':155 'take':32 'theoret':56 'theori':73,109 'think':54,159 'tone':2 'uncomfort':17 'use':94 'want':19 'way':67 'wedg':136 'wholesal':113 'without':114 'work':141 'world':62 'would':144"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5336658"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701989769 {#2289
      date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 208589
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#6990
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701989769 {#2289
    date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#7046
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701989769 {#2289
    date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1701989769 {#2289
    date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#7100
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701989769 {#2289
    date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#7154
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.39 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
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        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328}
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207670
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
      \n
      > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
      \n
      On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
      \n
      I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
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          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328}
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
      \n
      > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
      \n
      On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
      \n
      I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
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            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
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            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
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            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          -id: 207931
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          ]
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207858
        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          -id: 207880
          -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207880
        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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        }
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
      \n
      > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
      \n
      On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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      I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
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            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
      \n
      > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
      \n
      On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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      I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
      \n
      The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
      \n
      If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
      \n
      > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336}
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          }
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
      \n
      The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
      \n
      If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
      \n
      > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
      """
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user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#7382
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1702060715 {#2343
    date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#7438
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1702060715 {#2343
    date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1702060715 {#2343
    date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#7492
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702060715 {#2343
    date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#7546
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.39 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208589
        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336}
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703389253 {#2040
            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5333061"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
      \n
      The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
      \n
      If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
      \n
      > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208589
        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336}
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208521
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
      \n
      The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
      \n
      If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
      \n
      > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
      """
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
      \n
      The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
      \n
      If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
      \n
      > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          -id: 207931
          -bodyTs: "'anyth':22 'cost':8 'cut':33 'els':12,30 'less':15 'pay':3,14,27 'share':7 'shorthand':26 'someon':11,29 'tax':32 'think':19 'wrong':23"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207858
        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          -id: 207880
          -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207880
        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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        }
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
      \n
      The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
      \n
      If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
      \n
      > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
      """
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
      \n
      What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
      \n
      My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
      """
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          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
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         …2
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703389253 {#2040
            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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      … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
      \n
      What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
      \n
      My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
      """
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    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#7982
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701984594 {#2095
    date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#8038
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701984594 {#2095
    date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.08 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1701984594 {#2095
    date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#8092
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701984594 {#2095
    date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.17 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#8146
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.38 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5210 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
        +email: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "Drive fast, bash fash, and support the working class"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729535343 {#5207
          date: 2024-10-21 20:29:03.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
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        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5222 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5224 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5226 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5228 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5230 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5232 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5234 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5236 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5238 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5240 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5242 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5244 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5246 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5248 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5250 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5252 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5254 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5256 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5258 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5260 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5262 …}
        -id: 46131
        -password: "$2y$13$vhIxdJ0fR2RQ9DzjjnZ4sOKs4pHLVSpA6x44dRAJV1RlcjSCFZ9Jq"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
        +apId: "Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/Grayox"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "Grayox"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729553020 {#5208
          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1694697225 {#5209
          date: 2023-09-14 15:13:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 5926
        +entryCommentCount: 65073
        +postCount: 25
        +postCommentCount: 152
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#5132
          date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5136 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5138 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5140 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5142 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5144 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5146 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5148 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5150 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5152 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5154 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5156 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5158 …}
        -id: 38
        +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
      \n
      What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
      \n
      My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
      """
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          date: 2024-10-22 01:23:40.0 +02:00
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
          }
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
      \n
      What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
      \n
      My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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      … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
      \n
      What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
      \n
      My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
      """
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
      \n
      What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
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      My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350}
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2447 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +isAdult: false
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
          +favouriteCount: 6
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
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          -id: 207931
          -bodyTs: "'anyth':22 'cost':8 'cut':33 'els':12,30 'less':15 'pay':3,14,27 'share':7 'shorthand':26 'someon':11,29 'tax':32 'think':19 'wrong':23"
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2378 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +isAdult: false
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2379 …}
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          -id: 207833
          -bodyTs: "'appl':11 'band':41 'billi':28 'comput':17 'concert':30 'conflat':48 'cultur':4 'determin':5 'eilish':29 'expens':14 'indi':39 'isn':1 'like':45 'mani':7 'neighbor':37 'one':34 'price':51 'product':12 're':47 'realli':43 'rock':40 'seem':44 'spec':21 'thing':8 'ticket':25 'valu':3,49 'valuabl':32"
          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207833
        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2467 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207821
        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2389 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207858
        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          -id: 207880
          -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207880
        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -id: 207881
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207881
        }
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
          +favouriteCount: 5
          +score: 0
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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          +ip: null
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
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          -id: 207466
          -bodyTs: "'around':19 'concept':13 'ghost':34 'hand':18 'isn':26 'labor':22 'labour':5 'marxist':12 'object':28 'peopl':15 'price':36 're':31 'remind':2 'say':21 'shadowbox':32 'theori':6,23 'true':29 'valu':8,25,35 'wave':16"
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207466
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            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > Price tries to measure value\n
      \n
      This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
      \n
      Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
      \n
      TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
      """
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        date: 2023-12-09 09:51:13.0 +01:00
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350}
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      > Price tries to measure value\n
      \n
      This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
      \n
      Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
      \n
      TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
      """
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date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
    date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#8632
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
    date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
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    date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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  "editedAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1703389253 {#2040
    date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#8686
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
    date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703389253 {#2040
    date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
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  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#8740
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}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.36 ms
Input props 
[
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        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
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         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
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        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208589
        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2335 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350}
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          ]
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      > Price tries to measure value\n
      \n
      This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
      \n
      Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
      \n
      TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
      """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350}
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      > Price tries to measure value\n
      \n
      This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
      \n
      Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
      \n
      TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350}
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5332551"
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701977694 {#2385
            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207833
        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      > Price tries to measure value\n
      \n
      This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
      \n
      Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
      \n
      TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350}
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          -id: 207670
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          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      > Price tries to measure value\n
      \n
      This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
      \n
      Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
      \n
      TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
      """
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
          }
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207880
        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207881
        }
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207466
        }
        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
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      I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
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      What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
      \n
      What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
      """
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  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#9346
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      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.40 ms
Input props 
[
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
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        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586
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        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5211 …}
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        +username: "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
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        +followersCount: 0
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        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5216 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5218 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5220 …}
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        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
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        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
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        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
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      +title: "Know your enemy"
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      +children: [
        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
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      What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
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      What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
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         …2
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
      \n
      What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
          }
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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      I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
      \n
      What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
      """
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entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 12.0 MiB 5.08 ms
Input props 
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          +"title": 208299
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076}
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
          }
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207880
        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          ]
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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Attributes 
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Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#9936
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}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.40 ms
Input props 
[
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    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
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        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5212 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5214 …}
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        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#5264 …}
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         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#5135 …}
        +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "memes"
        +description: """
          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      +children: [
        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2191 …}
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          -id: 208589
          -bodyTs: "'aim':133 'analysi':27 'appli':55 'arris':107 'capit':39 'caus':118 'class':142 'confus':119 'consid':80 'contrari':52 'current':38,59 'deviat':76,103 'dismiss':112 'drive':135 'easi':30 'econom':63 'elabor':115 'exercis':95 'explicit':99 'found':146 'intent':10,123 'interest':149 'ltv':49,160 'make':25,69 'marx':46 'mental':34,83 'mistrust':7 'misus':163 'model':57 'occur':104 'peopl':22 'plenti':128 'point':43 'polit':26 'prerequisit':89 'problem':42 'public':111 'real':61 'real-world':60 'realiti':75 'reduc':37 'reflect':4 'remind':21 'rendit':47 'sens':70 'shortcut':35,84 'sorri':13 'specif':155 'take':32 'theoret':56 'theori':73,109 'think':54,159 'tone':2 'uncomfort':17 'use':94 'want':19 'way':67 'wedg':136 'wholesal':113 'without':114 'work':141 'world':62 'would':144"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076}
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
          }
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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        }
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
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            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076}
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076}
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 12.0 MiB 4.88 ms
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
      \n
      It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384}
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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        }
        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
      \n
      It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
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vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.34 ms
Input props 
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
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      It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2447 …}
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -id: 207670
          -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
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          +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5331749"
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
          +favouriteCount: 6
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384}
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
          }
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +image: null
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          -id: 207858
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207858
        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -id: 207880
          -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207880
        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2012 …}
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207881
        }
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
      \n
      It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
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            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208589
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2335 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384}
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
      \n
      It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
      """
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         …2
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384}
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
      \n
      It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
      \n
      > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
      \n
      True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
      \n
      > “Value != price”\n
      \n
      > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
      \n
      Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2467 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
    +body: """
      I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
      \n
      > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
      \n
      True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
      \n
      > “Value != price”\n
      \n
      > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
      \n
      Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
      """
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    +"title": 207821
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  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
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Attributes 
[]
Component 
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date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#11006
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}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.08 ms
Input props 
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#11060
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}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#11114
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vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.30 ms
Input props 
[
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
      \n
      > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
      \n
      True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
      \n
      > “Value != price”\n
      \n
      > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
      \n
      Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469}
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
      \n
      > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
      \n
      True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
      \n
      > “Value != price”\n
      \n
      > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
      \n
      Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
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            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2330 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2447 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -id: 207670
          -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
          +ranking: 0
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          +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5331749"
          +editedAt: null
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
          +favouriteCount: 6
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          -id: 207931
          -bodyTs: "'anyth':22 'cost':8 'cut':33 'els':12,30 'less':15 'pay':3,14,27 'share':7 'shorthand':26 'someon':11,29 'tax':32 'think':19 'wrong':23"
          +ranking: 0
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5333061"
          +editedAt: null
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2378 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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          -id: 207833
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207833
        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469}
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2389 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
          +favouriteCount: 3
          +score: 0
          +lastActive: DateTime @1701977972 {#1407
            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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          +ip: null
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2387 …}
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207858
        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
          +favouriteCount: 1
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -id: 207880
          -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207880
        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
          +favouriteCount: 1
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2012 …}
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          -id: 207881
          -bodyTs: "'anyth':9 'correl':21 'doesn':5 'made':27 'mess':24 'necessarili':7 'o':3 'price':11,16 'said':14 'say':8 'theori':2 'two':20 'vale':15 'valu':4 've':26"
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          +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5332814"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207881
        }
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
      \n
      > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
      \n
      True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
      \n
      > “Value != price”\n
      \n
      > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
      \n
      Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
      """
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469}
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
      \n
      > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
      \n
      True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
      \n
      > “Value != price”\n
      \n
      > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
      \n
      Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208589
        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391}
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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        }
        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391}
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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          +editedAt: null
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
            date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 211434
        }
      ]
      -id: 20852
      -titleTs: "'enemi':3 'know':1"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1702038246
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/8990722"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701951846 {#2603
        date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2389 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
    +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 3
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1701977972 {#1407
      date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
      "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
      "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2387 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2394 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2393 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1381 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1402 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1385 …}
    -id: 207858
    -bodyTs: "'els':8 'less':11 'pay':3,10 'someon':7"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5332658"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701977972 {#1883
      date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 207858
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#11574
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701977972 {#1883
    date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#11630
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701977972 {#1883
    date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.08 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1701977972 {#1883
    date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#11684
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701977972 {#1883
    date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#11738
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.37 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391}
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391}
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391}
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
          }
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        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208589
        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363}
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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          +editedAt: null
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
            date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 211434
        }
      ]
      -id: 20852
      -titleTs: "'enemi':3 'know':1"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1702038246
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/8990722"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701951846 {#2603
        date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
    +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 1
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1701978397 {#1401
      date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
      "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1362 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2019 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2030 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2026 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2022 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2025 …}
    -id: 207880
    -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5332811"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701978397 {#1404
      date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 207880
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#12160
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701978397 {#1404
    date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#12216
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701978397 {#1404
    date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.08 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1701978397 {#1404
    date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#12270
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701978397 {#1404
    date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#12324
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 12.0 MiB 0.31 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363}
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363}
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        }
        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363}
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208589
        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028}
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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        }
        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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       …2
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      > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
      \n
      > Don’t the two correlate?\n
      \n
      What a mess we’ve made.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1702038246
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/8990722"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701951846 {#2603
        date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
    +body: """
      > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
      \n
      > Don’t the two correlate?\n
      \n
      What a mess we’ve made.
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 1
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1701978409 {#2033
      date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
      "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2012 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2013 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2035 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2036 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2144 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2061 …}
    -id: 207881
    -bodyTs: "'anyth':9 'correl':21 'doesn':5 'made':27 'mess':24 'necessarili':7 'o':3 'price':11,16 'said':14 'say':8 'theori':2 'two':20 'vale':15 'valu':4 've':26"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5332814"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701978409 {#2021
      date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 207881
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
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    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#12746
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
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    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 12.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701978409 {#2021
    date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#12802
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701978409 {#2021
    date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 12.0 MiB 0.08 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1701978409 {#2021
    date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#12856
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701978409 {#2021
    date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 14.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
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    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
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    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#12910
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
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    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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    +addMentionsPosts: true
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 14.0 MiB 0.31 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
      \n
      > Don’t the two correlate?\n
      \n
      What a mess we’ve made.
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028}
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
      \n
      > Don’t the two correlate?\n
      \n
      What a mess we’ve made.
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
      \n
      > Don’t the two correlate?\n
      \n
      What a mess we’ve made.
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
      \n
      > Don’t the two correlate?\n
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      What a mess we’ve made.
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entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 14.0 MiB 5.21 ms
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208589
        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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    +body: """
      A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
      \n
      Value != price
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1702038246
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/8990722"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701951846 {#2603
        date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
    +body: """
      A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
      \n
      Value != price
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 5
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1701972633 {#1525
      date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1616 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1598 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1629 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1689 …}
    -id: 207466
    -bodyTs: "'around':19 'concept':13 'ghost':34 'hand':18 'isn':26 'labor':22 'labour':5 'marxist':12 'object':28 'peopl':15 'price':36 're':31 'remind':2 'say':21 'shadowbox':32 'theori':6,23 'true':29 'valu':8,25,35 'wave':16"
    +ranking: 0
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5330806"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701972633 {#1568
      date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 207466
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 14.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
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    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
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    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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    +apDiscoverable: true
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    +privateKey: null
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#13344
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
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    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
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    +hideAdult: true
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    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
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    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
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    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
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    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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    +apDiscoverable: true
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    +privateKey: null
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 14.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701972633 {#1568
    date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#13400
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701972633 {#1568
    date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 14.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1701972633 {#1568
    date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#13454
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701972633 {#1568
    date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 14.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
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    +showProfileFollowings: true
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    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
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    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
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    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
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    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
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      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#13508
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
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    +showSubscribedDomains: true
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    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
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    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +apDiscoverable: true
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    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 14.0 MiB 0.33 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
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      +featuredMagazines: null
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      +markNewComments: false
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      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
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      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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      +addMentionsPosts: true
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
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      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          ]
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
      \n
      Value != price
      """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          ]
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        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621}
        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
      \n
      Value != price
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
      \n
      Value != price
      """
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
            \n
            You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
            \n
            *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
            \n
            - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
            - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
            \n
            These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
            \n
            You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
            \n
            Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
            """
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      A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
      \n
      Value != price
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208589
        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 211248
        }
        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
      \n
      You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
      \n
      *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
      \n
      - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
      - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
      \n
      These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
      \n
      You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
      \n
      Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
      """
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        }
        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
      \n
      You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
      \n
      *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
      \n
      - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
      - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
      \n
      These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
      \n
      You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
      \n
      Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
      """
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    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5360397"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
      date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 211434
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 14.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#13934
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 14.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
    date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#13990
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
    date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 14.0 MiB 0.08 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
    date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#14044
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
    date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 14.0 MiB 0.18 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#14098
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 14.0 MiB 0.33 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
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          #### Rules:\n
          \n
          1. Be civil and nice.\n
          2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
          """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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          +ranking: 0
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            date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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       …2
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    +body: """
      After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
      \n
      You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
      \n
      *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
      \n
      - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
      - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
      \n
      These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
      \n
      You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
      \n
      Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
      """
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      +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
      +title: "Know your enemy"
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        11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2330 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
          }
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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          +"title": 208521
        }
        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207670
        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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          -id: 207931
          -bodyTs: "'anyth':22 'cost':8 'cut':33 'els':12,30 'less':15 'pay':3,14,27 'share':7 'shorthand':26 'someon':11,29 'tax':32 'think':19 'wrong':23"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207931
        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
          }
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …2}
          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2467 …}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207858
        }
        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +image: null
          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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          -id: 207880
          -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 207880
        }
        2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
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          +body: """
            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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        }
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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          +body: """
            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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      After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
      \n
      You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
      \n
      *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
      \n
      - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
      - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
      \n
      These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
      \n
      You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
      \n
      Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
      """
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            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
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            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
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            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
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            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
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            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
          ]
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        9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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            "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
          }
          +"title": 208299
        }
        10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
          +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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            date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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          +body: """
            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        }
        8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
          +lang: "en"
          +isAdult: false
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            "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
            "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
          ]
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        }
        5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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        }
        6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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        4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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          +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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          +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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      After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
      \n
      You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
      \n
      *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
      \n
      - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
      - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
      \n
      These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
      \n
      You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
      \n
      Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
      """
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          +body: """
            My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
            \n
            > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
            \n
            On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
            \n
            I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
            """
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        12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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          +body: """
            True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
            \n
            The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
            \n
            If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
            \n
            > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
            """
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          +body: """
            … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
            \n
            What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
            \n
            My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
            """
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          +body: """
            > Price tries to measure value\n
            \n
            This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
            \n
            Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
            \n
            TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
            """
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            I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
            \n
            What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
            """
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          +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          +body: """
            > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
            \n
            It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
            """
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          +body: """
            I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
            \n
            > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
            \n
            True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
            \n
            > “Value != price”\n
            \n
            > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
            \n
            Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
            """
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            > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
            \n
            > Don’t the two correlate?\n
            \n
            What a mess we’ve made.
            """
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            A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
            \n
            Value != price
            """
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    +body: """
      After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
      \n
      You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
      \n
      *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
      \n
      - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
      - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
      \n
      These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
      \n
      You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
      \n
      Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
      """
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        \n
        Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules:**\n
        ==========\n
        \n
        1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
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        2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
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        ---\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
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        …\n
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        If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Also check out:**\n
        \n
        **Partnered Communities:**\n
        \n
        1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
        \n
        9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reach out to\n
        \n
        *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
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]
Attributes 
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]
Component 
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      +title: "lemmyshitpost"
      +description: """
        Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
        \n
        Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules:**\n
        ==========\n
        \n
        1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
        \n
        …\n
        \n
        If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Also check out:**\n
        \n
        **Partnered Communities:**\n
        \n
        1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
        \n
        9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reach out to\n
        \n
        *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
        """
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          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
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          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2310 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2306 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2308 …}
        +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 4
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1704204463 {#2322
          date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
          "@kibiz0r@lemmy.world"
          "@angrymouse@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2305 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2303 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2317 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2290 …}
        -id: 273457
        -bodyTs: "'bait':4 'boy':5 'get':6 'im':7 'took':2"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5841077"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
          date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 273457
      }
    ]
    -id: 26619
    -titleTs: "'fellow':1 'happen':11 'hate':8 'landchad':2 'lemmi':4"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1704245553
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/10219474"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704159153 {#2733
      date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +isSingle: false
  +showShortSentence: true
  +showBody: false
  +showMagazineName: true
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +newComments: 0
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 14.0 MiB 0.62 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2712
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#10582 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#11171 …}
    +email: "STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    +username: "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: "23 year old Irish non binary satanist"
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729188897 {#10581
      date: 2024-10-17 20:14:57.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11211 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11172 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11209 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11208 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11174 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11205 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11199 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11202 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11204 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11176 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11197 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11196 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11178 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11193 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11192 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11180 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11189 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11183 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11186 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11188 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11182 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11797 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11796 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12383 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12382 …}
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    -id: 1575
    -password: "$2y$13$6ktd00mDUrU2CYpwd2.DTO7.6KWunOZlclLDgszBYeXtqwzo.DkG."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12980 …}
    +apId: "STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.world"
    +apPreferredUsername: "STRIKINGdebate2"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
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      date: 2024-10-12 06:32:40.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1686991071 {#10584
      date: 2023-06-17 10:37:51.0 +02:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#8798
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2712
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#10582 …}
    +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#11171 …}
    +email: "STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    +username: "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1729188897 {#10581
      date: 2024-10-17 20:14:57.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
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    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
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    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
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    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11211 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11172 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11209 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11208 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11174 …}
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    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11204 …}
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    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11197 …}
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    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11178 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11193 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11192 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11180 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11189 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11183 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11186 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11188 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11182 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11797 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11796 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12383 …}
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    -password: "$2y$13$6ktd00mDUrU2CYpwd2.DTO7.6KWunOZlclLDgszBYeXtqwzo.DkG."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12980 …}
    +apId: "STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
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    +privateKey: null
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      date: 2024-10-12 06:32:40.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
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      date: 2023-06-17 10:37:51.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 14.0 MiB 2.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1704159153 {#2733
    date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#14155
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1704159153 {#2733
    date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 14.0 MiB 0.10 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1704159153 {#2733
    date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#7663
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704159153 {#2733
    date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 14.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
    +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
    +title: "lemmyshitpost"
    +description: """
      Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
      \n
      Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      **Rules:**\n
      ==========\n
      \n
      1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
      \n
      …\n
      \n
      If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      **Also check out:**\n
      \n
      **Partnered Communities:**\n
      \n
      1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
      \n
      9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Reach out to\n
      \n
      *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 2449
    +entryCommentCount: 36496
    +postCount: 2
    +postCommentCount: 9
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729582894 {#14555
      date: 2024-10-22 09:41:34.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7619 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7604 …}
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    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7606 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7615 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7608 …}
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7612 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7610 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8213 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8204 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8211 …}
    -id: 102
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    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
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    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583684 {#14556
      date: 2024-10-22 09:54:44.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700687993 {#14557
      date: 2023-11-22 22:19:53.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#9997
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
    +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
    +title: "lemmyshitpost"
    +description: """
      Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
      \n
      Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      **Rules:**\n
      ==========\n
      \n
      1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
      \n
      …\n
      \n
      If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      **Also check out:**\n
      \n
      **Partnered Communities:**\n
      \n
      1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
      \n
      9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Reach out to\n
      \n
      *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
      """
    +rules: null
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    +entryCommentCount: 36496
    +postCount: 2
    +postCommentCount: 9
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729582894 {#14555
      date: 2024-10-22 09:41:34.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7619 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7604 …}
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    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7606 …}
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7612 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7610 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8213 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8204 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8211 …}
    -id: 102
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    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyshitpost"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyshitpost/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
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    +apDiscoverable: true
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    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583684 {#14556
      date: 2024-10-22 09:54:44.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700687993 {#14557
      date: 2023-11-22 22:19:53.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showTitle: true
  +fullName: false
  +stretchedLink: false
  +showAvatar: false
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 14.0 MiB 0.43 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2712
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#10582 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#11171 …}
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      +homepage: "front"
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11211 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11172 …}
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       …2
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
      +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
      +title: "lemmyshitpost"
      +description: """
        Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
        \n
        Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules:**\n
        ==========\n
        \n
        1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
        \n
        …\n
        \n
        If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Also check out:**\n
        \n
        **Partnered Communities:**\n
        \n
        1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
        \n
        9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reach out to\n
        \n
        *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
        """
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2751 …}
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    +slug: "Fellow-landchads-of-Lemmy-Don-t-you-hate-when-this-happens"
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    +children: [
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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        +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
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     …2
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#12546
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2712
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#10582 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#11171 …}
      +email: "STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
      +username: "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "23 year old Irish non binary satanist"
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
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      +addMentionsEntries: false
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      +isBanned: false
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      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11211 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11172 …}
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      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11208 …}
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      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11205 …}
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      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11176 …}
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      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11183 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11188 …}
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      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12383 …}
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        date: 2023-06-17 10:37:51.0 +02:00
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       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
      +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
      +title: "lemmyshitpost"
      +description: """
        Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
        \n
        Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules:**\n
        ==========\n
        \n
        1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
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        …\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Also check out:**\n
        \n
        **Partnered Communities:**\n
        \n
        1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
        \n
        9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reach out to\n
        \n
        *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
        """
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        \n
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        ---\n
        \n
        **Also check out:**\n
        \n
        **Partnered Communities:**\n
        \n
        1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
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        9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
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        10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reach out to\n
        \n
        *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
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          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
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          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
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          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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          +privateKey: null
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          +apDeletedAt: null
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2310 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2306 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2308 …}
        +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@kibiz0r@lemmy.world"
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        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2305 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2303 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2317 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2290 …}
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    -id: 26619
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      date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#14577
  +formDest: "entry"
  +subject: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2310
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2712
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#10582 …}
      +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#11171 …}
      +email: "STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
      +username: "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "23 year old Irish non binary satanist"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729188897 {#10581
        date: 2024-10-17 20:14:57.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11211 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11172 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11209 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11208 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11174 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11205 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11199 …}
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      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11204 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11176 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11197 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11196 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11178 …}
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      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11183 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11186 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11188 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11182 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11797 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11796 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12980 …}
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      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2"
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +privateKey: null
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      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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        date: 2023-06-17 10:37:51.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
      +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
      +title: "lemmyshitpost"
      +description: """
        Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
        \n
        Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules:**\n
        ==========\n
        \n
        1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
        \n
        …\n
        \n
        If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Also check out:**\n
        \n
        **Partnered Communities:**\n
        \n
        1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
        \n
        9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reach out to\n
        \n
        *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
        """
      +rules: null
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7619 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7604 …}
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      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7608 …}
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      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
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        date: 2023-11-22 22:19:53.0 +01:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2751 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2753 …}
    +slug: "Fellow-landchads-of-Lemmy-Don-t-you-hate-when-this-happens"
    +title: "Fellow landchads of Lemmy. Don't you hate when this happens?"
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d892d362-cd30-4ab7-a655-fd9887e55417.jpeg"
    +body: null
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    }
    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2754 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2756 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2758 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2762 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2764 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
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        }
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2306 …}
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        +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
        +lang: "en"
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        +ip: null
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        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2305 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2303 …}
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        -id: 273457
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    ]
    -id: 26619
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 14.0 MiB 7.26 ms
Input props 
[
  "comment" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
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      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
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      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
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      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
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        +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
        +title: "lemmyshitpost"
        +description: """
          Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
          \n
          Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules:**\n
          ==========\n
          \n
          1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
          \n
          …\n
          \n
          If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Also check out:**\n
          \n
          **Partnered Communities:**\n
          \n
          1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
          \n
          9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reach out to\n
          \n
          *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
          """
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Attributes 
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Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent {#14828
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          date: 2023-06-17 10:37:51.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
        +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
        +title: "lemmyshitpost"
        +description: """
          Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
          \n
          Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules:**\n
          ==========\n
          \n
          1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
          \n
          …\n
          \n
          If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Also check out:**\n
          \n
          **Partnered Communities:**\n
          \n
          1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
          \n
          9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reach out to\n
          \n
          *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 2449
        +entryCommentCount: 36496
        +postCount: 2
        +postCommentCount: 9
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729582894 {#14555
          date: 2024-10-22 09:41:34.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7619 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7604 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7617 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7606 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7615 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7608 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7613 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7612 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7610 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8213 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8204 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8211 …}
        -id: 102
        +apId: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyshitpost"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyshitpost"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyshitpost/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.world"
        +apPreferredUsername: "lemmyshitpost"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583684 {#14556
          date: 2024-10-22 09:54:44.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700687993 {#14557
          date: 2023-11-22 22:19:53.0 +01:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2751 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2753 …}
      +slug: "Fellow-landchads-of-Lemmy-Don-t-you-hate-when-this-happens"
      +title: "Fellow landchads of Lemmy. Don't you hate when this happens?"
      +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d892d362-cd30-4ab7-a655-fd9887e55417.jpeg"
      +body: null
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 53
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      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1712587153 {#2746
        date: 2024-04-08 16:39:13.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2754 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2756 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2758 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2760 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2762 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2764 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312}
      ]
      -id: 26619
      -titleTs: "'fellow':1 'happen':11 'hate':8 'landchad':2 'lemmi':4"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1704245553
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/10219474"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704159153 {#2733
        date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2306 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2308 …}
    +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 4
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1704204463 {#2322
      date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
      "@kibiz0r@lemmy.world"
      "@angrymouse@lemmy.world"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2305 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2303 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2317 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2290 …}
    -id: 273457
    -bodyTs: "'bait':4 'boy':5 'get':6 'im':7 'took':2"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5841077"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
      date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 273457
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 14.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
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    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
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    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#14873
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -id: 7025
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
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      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 14.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#14929
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 14.0 MiB 0.10 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#14983
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 14.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#15037
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 14.0 MiB 0.34 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2310
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2712
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#10582 …}
        +cover: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#11171 …}
        +email: "STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
        +username: "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "23 year old Irish non binary satanist"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729188897 {#10581
          date: 2024-10-17 20:14:57.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: true
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
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        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
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        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11211 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11172 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11209 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11208 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11174 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11205 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11199 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11202 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11204 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11176 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11197 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11196 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11178 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11193 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11192 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11180 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11189 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11183 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11186 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11188 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11182 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11797 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#11796 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12383 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12382 …}
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        -id: 1575
        -password: "$2y$13$6ktd00mDUrU2CYpwd2.DTO7.6KWunOZlclLDgszBYeXtqwzo.DkG."
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#12980 …}
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        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.world"
        +apPreferredUsername: "STRIKINGdebate2"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +privateKey: null
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          date: 2024-10-12 06:32:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1686991071 {#10584
          date: 2023-06-17 10:37:51.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
        +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
        +title: "lemmyshitpost"
        +description: """
          Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
          \n
          Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules:**\n
          ==========\n
          \n
          1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
          \n
          …\n
          \n
          If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Also check out:**\n
          \n
          **Partnered Communities:**\n
          \n
          1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
          \n
          9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reach out to\n
          \n
          *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        +entryCommentCount: 36496
        +postCount: 2
        +postCommentCount: 9
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
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        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7619 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7604 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7617 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7606 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7615 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7608 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7613 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7612 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#7610 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8213 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8204 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#8211 …}
        -id: 102
        +apId: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyshitpost"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyshitpost"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/lemmyshitpost/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.world"
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        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583684 {#14556
          date: 2024-10-22 09:54:44.0 +02:00
        }
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700687993 {#14557
          date: 2023-11-22 22:19:53.0 +01:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2751 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2753 …}
      +slug: "Fellow-landchads-of-Lemmy-Don-t-you-hate-when-this-happens"
      +title: "Fellow landchads of Lemmy. Don't you hate when this happens?"
      +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d892d362-cd30-4ab7-a655-fd9887e55417.jpeg"
      +body: null
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1712587153 {#2746
        date: 2024-04-08 16:39:13.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2754 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2756 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2758 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2760 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2762 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2764 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312}
      ]
      -id: 26619
      -titleTs: "'fellow':1 'happen':11 'hate':8 'landchad':2 'lemmi':4"
      -bodyTs: null
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        date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2306 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2308 …}
    +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
    +lang: "en"
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    }
    +ip: null
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      "@kibiz0r@lemmy.world"
      "@angrymouse@lemmy.world"
    ]
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    -id: 273457
    -bodyTs: "'bait':4 'boy':5 'get':6 'im':7 'took':2"
    +ranking: 0
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
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    }
    +"title": 273457
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#15106
  +subject: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
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      +homepage: "front"
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        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
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      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
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      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
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         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
        +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
        +title: "lemmyshitpost"
        +description: """
          Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
          \n
          Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules:**\n
          ==========\n
          \n
          1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
          \n
          …\n
          \n
          If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Also check out:**\n
          \n
          **Partnered Communities:**\n
          \n
          1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
          \n
          9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reach out to\n
          \n
          *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
          """
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +ip: null
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      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2764 …}
      +children: [
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      -id: 26619
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …2}
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    +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
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    +"title": 273457
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}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 14.0 MiB 0.78 ms
Input props 
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         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#7603 …}
        +name: "lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world"
        +title: "lemmyshitpost"
        +description: """
          Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
          \n
          Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules:**\n
          ==========\n
          \n
          1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
          \n
          …\n
          \n
          If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Also check out:**\n
          \n
          **Partnered Communities:**\n
          \n
          1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
          \n
          9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reach out to\n
          \n
          *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
          """
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Component 
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        +title: "lemmyshitpost"
        +description: """
          Welcome to Lemmy Shitpost. Here you can shitpost to your hearts content.\n
          \n
          Anything and everything goes. Memes, Jokes, Vents and Banter. Though we still have to comply with lemmy.world instance rules. So behave!\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules:**\n
          ==========\n
          \n
          1. Be Respectful___ Refrain from using harmful language pertaining to a protected characteristic: e.g. race, gender, sexuality, disability or religion. Refrain from being argumentative when responding or commenting to posts/replies. Personal attacks are not welcome here. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          2. No Illegal Content___ Content that violates the law. Any post/comment found to be in breach of common law will be removed and given to the authorities if required. That means: -No promoting violence/threats against any individuals -No CSA content or Revenge Porn -No sharing private/personal information (Doxxing) …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3. No Spam___ Posting the same post, no matter the intent is against the rules. -If you have posted content, please refrain from re-posting said content within this community. -Do not spam posts with intent to harass, annoy, bully, advertise, scam or harm this community. -No posting Scams/Advertisements/Phishing Links/IP Grabbers -No Bots, Bots will be banned from the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4. No Porn/ExplicitContent ___ -Do not post explicit content. Lemmy.World is not the instance for NSFW content. -Do not post Gore or Shock Content. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5. No Enciting Harassment,Brigading, Doxxing or Witch Hunts ___ -Do not Brigade other Communities -No calls to action against other communities/users within Lemmy or outside of Lemmy. -No Witch Hunts against users/communities. -No content that harasses members within or outside of the community. …\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          6. NSFW should be behind NSFW tags.___ -Content that is NSFW should be behind NSFW tags. -Content that might be distressing should be kept behind NSFW tags.\n
          \n
          …\n
          \n
          If you see content that is a breach of the rules, please flag and report the comment and a moderator will take action where they can.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Also check out:**\n
          \n
          **Partnered Communities:**\n
          \n
          1.[Memes](/c/memes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          2.[Lemmy Review](/c/lemmyreview@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          3.[Mildly Infuriating](/c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          4.[Lemmy Be Wholesome](/c/lemmybewholesome@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          5.[No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          6.[You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          7.[Comedy Heaven](/c/comedyheaven@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          8.[Credible Defense](/c/credibledefense@sh.itjust.works)\n
          \n
          9.[Ten Forward](/c/tenforward@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          10.[LinuxMemes](/c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world) (Linux themed memes)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reach out to\n
          \n
          *All communities included on the sidebar are to be made in compliance with the instance rules.* [Striker](https://lemmy.world/u/STRIKINGdebate2)
          """
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    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2317 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2290 …}
    -id: 273457
    -bodyTs: "'bait':4 'boy':5 'get':6 'im':7 'took':2"
    +ranking: 0
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +visibility: "visible             "
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    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
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    }
    +"title": 273457
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 16.0 MiB 6.28 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#15517 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
      +username: "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1728695849 {#15514
        date: 2024-10-12 03:17:29.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
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      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
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      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
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      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15518 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15520 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15522 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15524 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15526 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15528 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15530 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15532 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15534 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15536 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15538 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15540 …}
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      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15550 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15552 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15556 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15558 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15560 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15562 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15564 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15566 …}
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      -id: 90415
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15570 …}
      +apId: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
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      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719249765 {#15516
        date: 2024-06-24 19:22:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
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      +entryCommentCount: 20194
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      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
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      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
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      -id: 51
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        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
    +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
    +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
    +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
    +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
    +type: "link"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 50
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1722895668 {#2766
      date: 2024-08-06 00:07:48.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2776 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2778 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2780 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
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          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          +customCss: null
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          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
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          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
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          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
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          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
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          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
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          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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          +privateKey: null
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            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
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          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
          \n
          I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        +score: 0
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          date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2212 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2209 …}
        -id: 293410
        -bodyTs: "'abl':23 'fortun':6 'get':25 'glad':20 'guess':16 'happen':31 'instal':10 'mayb':5 'need':28 'offlin':13 'read':14 'tachiyomi':11 'time':7 'unfortun':3"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
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          date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293410
      }
    ]
    -id: 28258
    -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
    -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1704858013
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://reddthat.com/post/11519171"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704771613 {#2752
      date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Attributes 
[
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent {#15414
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
  -newCommentMarkerCount: App\Kbin\NewCommentMarker\NewCommentMarkerCount {#3565 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -security: Symfony\Bundle\SecurityBundle\Security {#1101 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#15517 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
      +username: "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1728695849 {#15514
        date: 2024-10-12 03:17:29.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
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      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
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      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15518 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15520 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15522 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15524 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15526 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15528 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15530 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15532 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15534 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15536 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15538 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15540 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15542 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15544 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15546 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15548 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15550 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15552 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15554 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15556 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15558 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15560 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15562 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15564 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15566 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15568 …}
      -id: 90415
      -password: "$2y$13$ltywMFXXUSCUhL3R/uj1VO1xbk7o0XoE4JwbDLhtQidaXPaBfOk4i"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15570 …}
      +apId: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
      +apProfileId: "https://reddthat.com/u/ardi60"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://reddthat.com/u/ardi60"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://reddthat.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "reddthat.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "ardi60"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1719249769 {#15515
        date: 2024-06-24 19:22:49.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719249765 {#15516
        date: 2024-06-24 19:22:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
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      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
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      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
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        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
    +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
    +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
    +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
    +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
    +type: "link"
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    +ip: null
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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          +roles: []
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          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
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          -totpSecret: null
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          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
          \n
          I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        +ip: null
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
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        -id: 293410
        -bodyTs: "'abl':23 'fortun':6 'get':25 'glad':20 'guess':16 'happen':31 'instal':10 'mayb':5 'need':28 'offlin':13 'read':14 'tachiyomi':11 'time':7 'unfortun':3"
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        +"title": 293410
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    -id: 28258
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    +cross: false
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
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  +isSingle: false
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}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 14.0 MiB 0.48 ms
Input props 
[
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    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#15517 …}
    +cover: null
    +email: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
    +username: "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
    +roles: []
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    +homepage: "front"
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    +markedForDeletionAt: null
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    +customCss: null
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    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15518 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15520 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15522 …}
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    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15550 …}
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#15477
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date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 14.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
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    date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#15591
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1704771613 {#2752
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}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 14.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
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    date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
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  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#15645
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704771613 {#2752
    date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
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  +editedAt: null
}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 14.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
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    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
    +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +title: "piracy"
    +description: """
      ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
      \n
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      \n
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      \n
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      \n
      **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
      \n
      - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
      - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
      - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
      - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
      \n
      [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
      \n
      ---
      """
    +rules: null
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    +isAdult: false
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      date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#15699
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
    +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +title: "piracy"
    +description: """
      ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
      \n
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      \n
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      **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
      \n
      **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
      \n
      - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
      - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
      - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
      - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
      \n
      [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
      \n
      ---
      """
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
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  +showTitle: true
  +fullName: false
  +stretchedLink: false
  +showAvatar: false
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 14.0 MiB 0.45 ms
Input props 
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       …2
    }
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      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
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    +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
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    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
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      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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        +body: """
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          \n
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     …2
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#15759
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        date: 2024-06-24 19:22:45.0 +02:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
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      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
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        \n
        ---
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          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
          \n
          I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 7
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1704806324 {#2199
          date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2212 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2209 …}
        -id: 293410
        -bodyTs: "'abl':23 'fortun':6 'get':25 'glad':20 'guess':16 'happen':31 'instal':10 'mayb':5 'need':28 'offlin':13 'read':14 'tachiyomi':11 'time':7 'unfortun':3"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031057"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
          date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293410
      }
    ]
    -id: 28258
    -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
    -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704858013
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://reddthat.com/post/11519171"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704771613 {#2752
      date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#15816
  +formDest: "entry"
  +subject: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#15517 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
      +username: "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1728695849 {#15514
        date: 2024-10-12 03:17:29.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15518 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15520 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15522 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15524 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15526 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15528 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15530 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15532 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15534 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15536 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15538 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15540 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15542 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15544 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15546 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15548 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15550 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15552 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15554 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15556 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15558 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15560 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15562 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15564 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15566 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15568 …}
      -id: 90415
      -password: "$2y$13$ltywMFXXUSCUhL3R/uj1VO1xbk7o0XoE4JwbDLhtQidaXPaBfOk4i"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15570 …}
      +apId: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
      +apProfileId: "https://reddthat.com/u/ardi60"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://reddthat.com/u/ardi60"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://reddthat.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "reddthat.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "ardi60"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1719249769 {#15515
        date: 2024-06-24 19:22:49.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719249765 {#15516
        date: 2024-06-24 19:22:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
      -id: 51
      +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
    +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
    +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
    +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
    +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
    +type: "link"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 50
    +favouriteCount: 215
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1722895668 {#2766
      date: 2024-08-06 00:07:48.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2776 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2778 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2780 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
          +oauthGoogleId: null
          +oauthFacebookId: null
          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
          +showProfileSubscriptions: true
          +showProfileFollowings: true
          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
          \n
          I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 7
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1704806324 {#2199
          date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2212 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2209 …}
        -id: 293410
        -bodyTs: "'abl':23 'fortun':6 'get':25 'glad':20 'guess':16 'happen':31 'instal':10 'mayb':5 'need':28 'offlin':13 'read':14 'tachiyomi':11 'time':7 'unfortun':3"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031057"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
          date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293410
      }
    ]
    -id: 28258
    -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
    -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704858013
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://reddthat.com/post/11519171"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704771613 {#2752
      date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 16.0 MiB 5.57 ms
Input props 
[
  "comment" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#15517 …}
        +cover: null
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1728695849 {#15514
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        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15520 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15522 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15524 …}
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        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15570 …}
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        +privateKey: null
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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          date: 2024-06-24 19:22:45.0 +02:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
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        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
      +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
      +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
      +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
      +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
      +type: "link"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: false
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      +ip: null
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      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2776 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195}
      ]
      -id: 28258
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      -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
      \n
      I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
      """
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    +ip: null
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    ]
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  "showEntryTitle" => false
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent {#16072
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      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
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      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730
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        +cover: null
        +email: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
        +username: "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
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        +customCss: null
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        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15518 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15520 …}
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        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15524 …}
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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        +postCommentCount: 149
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        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
      +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
      +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
      +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
      +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
      +type: "link"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: false
      +commentCount: 50
      +favouriteCount: 215
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1722895668 {#2766
        date: 2024-08-06 00:07:48.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2776 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2778 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2780 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195}
      ]
      -id: 28258
      -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
      -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1704858013
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://reddthat.com/post/11519171"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704771613 {#2752
        date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
      \n
      I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 7
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1704806324 {#2199
      date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2212 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2209 …}
    -id: 293410
    -bodyTs: "'abl':23 'fortun':6 'get':25 'glad':20 'guess':16 'happen':31 'instal':10 'mayb':5 'need':28 'offlin':13 'read':14 'tachiyomi':11 'time':7 'unfortun':3"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031057"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
      date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293410
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 16.0 MiB 0.18 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#16117
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
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      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
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  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 16.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
    date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#16173
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
    date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 16.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
    date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#16227
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
    date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 16.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#16281
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
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    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 16.0 MiB 0.45 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#15517 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
        +username: "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
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        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +customCss: null
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        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15520 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15522 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15524 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15526 …}
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        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15552 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15554 …}
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        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15570 …}
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        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719249765 {#15516
          date: 2024-06-24 19:22:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
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        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
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        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
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        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
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          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
      +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
      +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
      +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
      +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
      +type: "link"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: false
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      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2776 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2778 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2780 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195}
      ]
      -id: 28258
      -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
      -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
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      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
      \n
      I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 7
    +score: 0
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      date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
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    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2212 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2209 …}
    -id: 293410
    -bodyTs: "'abl':23 'fortun':6 'get':25 'glad':20 'guess':16 'happen':31 'instal':10 'mayb':5 'need':28 'offlin':13 'read':14 'tachiyomi':11 'time':7 'unfortun':3"
    +ranking: 0
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      date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293410
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#16354
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      +avatar: null
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      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
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        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +hideAdult: true
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
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      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
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      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
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      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#15517 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "ardi60@reddthat.com"
        +username: "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: null
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          date: 2024-10-12 03:17:29.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
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        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
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        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
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        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15518 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15520 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15522 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15524 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15526 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15528 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15530 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15532 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15534 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15536 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15538 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15540 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15542 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15544 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15546 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15548 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15550 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15552 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15554 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15556 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15558 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15560 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15562 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15564 …}
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        -id: 90415
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        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#15570 …}
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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          date: 2024-06-24 19:22:45.0 +02:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 866
        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
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        -id: 51
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
      +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
      +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
      +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
      +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
      +type: "link"
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      +ip: null
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195}
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      -id: 28258
      -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
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      +cross: false
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
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    +root: null
    +body: """
      What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
      \n
      I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
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    +ip: null
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    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
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    +"title": 293410
  }
  +formDest: "entry_comment"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 16.0 MiB 0.69 ms
Input props 
[
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         …2
      }
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        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
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        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
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        -id: 51
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          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
      +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
      +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
      +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
      +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
      +type: "link"
      +lang: "en"
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      +ip: null
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195}
      ]
      -id: 28258
      -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
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        date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
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    +root: null
    +body: """
      What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
      \n
      I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
      """
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
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    +ip: null
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    +mentions: [
      "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#16411
  +formDest: "entry_comment"
  +subject: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
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      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
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        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
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      +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
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      +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
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      What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
      \n
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      """
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entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 16.0 MiB 7.81 ms
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      +name: "selfhosted@lemmy.world"
      +title: "selfhosted"
      +description: """
        A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
        \n
        Rules:\n
        \n
        - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
        - No spam posting.\n
        - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
        - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
        - No trolling.\n
        \n
        Resources:\n
        \n
        - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
        - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
        - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
        \n
        > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
        \n
        > Questions? DM the mods!
        """
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      \n
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      """
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          I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
          \n
          I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
          """
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    }
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        A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
        \n
        Rules:\n
        \n
        - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
        - No spam posting.\n
        - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
        - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
        - No trolling.\n
        \n
        Resources:\n
        \n
        - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
        - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
        - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
        \n
        > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
        \n
        > Questions? DM the mods!
        """
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       …2
    }
    +image: null
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    +url: null
    +body: """
      I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
      \n
      1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
      2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
      3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
      """
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
        +body: """
          I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
          \n
          I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
          """
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          "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
        ]
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2264 …}
        -id: 293479
        -bodyTs: "'ahead':30 'arr':87 'bit':73 'compose.yml':109 'configur':29 'contain':52,124 'coordin':104 'correct':54 'determin':27 'differen':37 'direct':49 'docker':84,123 'easi':102 'file':110 'fuss':71 'get':114 'go':64 'long':9 'lxc':34,92,126 'm':58 'map':41,76 'mount':14,46,105,118 'need':69 'network':15,116 'person':78 'point':106 'prepar':25 'proper':13 'proxmox':18 'read/write':120 'realli':8 'root':39 'rout':66 'run':82 's/lxc':20 'sambashar':96 'second':2 'separ':91 'servic':99 'smb':48 'someon':53 'still':112 'storag':16,117 'stream':98 'suit':88 'time':10,32 'took':5 'tricki':113 'unprivilag':33 'user':40,75 'vm':19,81 'within':121 'wrong':59"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031622"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
          date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293479
      }
    ]
    -id: 28133
    -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
    -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704825191
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
      date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
      date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +isSingle: false
  +showShortSentence: true
  +showBody: false
  +showMagazineName: true
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +newComments: 0
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 16.0 MiB 2.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16822 …}
    +cover: null
    +email: "Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    +username: "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1726870799 {#16817
      date: 2024-09-21 00:19:59.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: false
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16824 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16826 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16828 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16830 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16832 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16834 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16836 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16838 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16840 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16842 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16844 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16846 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16848 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16850 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16852 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16854 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16856 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16858 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16860 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16862 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16864 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16866 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16868 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16870 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16872 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16874 …}
    -id: 42554
    -password: "$2y$13$c3rfsCSay7QnXoMBZadPwOzCmXtz8Ph5I8AstuZVXpKKROpRsgqw."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16876 …}
    +apId: "Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/Edgarallenpwn"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/Edgarallenpwn"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "Edgarallenpwn"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577495 {#16814
      date: 2024-10-22 08:11:35.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1692991431 {#16816
      date: 2023-08-25 21:23:51.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#16777
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16822 …}
    +cover: null
    +email: "Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    +username: "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1726870799 {#16817
      date: 2024-09-21 00:19:59.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: false
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16824 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16826 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16828 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16830 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16832 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16834 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16836 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16838 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16840 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16842 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16844 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16846 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16848 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16850 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16852 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16854 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16856 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16858 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16860 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16862 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16864 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16866 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16868 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16870 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16872 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16874 …}
    -id: 42554
    -password: "$2y$13$c3rfsCSay7QnXoMBZadPwOzCmXtz8Ph5I8AstuZVXpKKROpRsgqw."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16876 …}
    +apId: "Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/Edgarallenpwn"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/Edgarallenpwn"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "Edgarallenpwn"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577495 {#16814
      date: 2024-10-22 08:11:35.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1692991431 {#16816
      date: 2023-08-25 21:23:51.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 16.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
    date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#16896
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
    date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 16.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
    date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
    date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#16950
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
    date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
    date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
  }
}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 16.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16705 …}
    +name: "selfhosted@lemmy.world"
    +title: "selfhosted"
    +description: """
      A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
      \n
      Rules:\n
      \n
      - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
      - No spam posting.\n
      - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
      - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
      - No trolling.\n
      \n
      Resources:\n
      \n
      - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
      - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
      - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
      \n
      > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
      \n
      > Questions? DM the mods!
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 222
    +entryCommentCount: 3916
    +postCount: 0
    +postCommentCount: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729582735 {#16702
      date: 2024-10-22 09:38:55.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16706 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16708 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16710 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16712 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16714 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16716 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16718 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16720 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16722 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16724 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16726 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16728 …}
    -id: 120
    +apId: "selfhosted@lemmy.world"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.world"
    +apPreferredUsername: "selfhosted"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1703473826 {#16703
      date: 2023-12-25 04:10:26.0 +01:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703473826 {#16704
      date: 2023-12-25 04:10:26.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#17004
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16705 …}
    +name: "selfhosted@lemmy.world"
    +title: "selfhosted"
    +description: """
      A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
      \n
      Rules:\n
      \n
      - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
      - No spam posting.\n
      - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
      - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
      - No trolling.\n
      \n
      Resources:\n
      \n
      - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
      - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
      - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
      \n
      > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
      \n
      > Questions? DM the mods!
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 222
    +entryCommentCount: 3916
    +postCount: 0
    +postCommentCount: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729582735 {#16702
      date: 2024-10-22 09:38:55.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16706 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16708 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16710 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16712 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16714 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16716 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16718 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16720 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16722 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16724 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16726 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16728 …}
    -id: 120
    +apId: "selfhosted@lemmy.world"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.world"
    +apPreferredUsername: "selfhosted"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1703473826 {#16703
      date: 2023-12-25 04:10:26.0 +01:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703473826 {#16704
      date: 2023-12-25 04:10:26.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showTitle: true
  +fullName: false
  +stretchedLink: false
  +showAvatar: false
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 16.0 MiB 0.36 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16822 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
      +username: "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1726870799 {#16817
        date: 2024-09-21 00:19:59.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16824 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16826 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16828 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16830 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16832 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16834 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16836 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16838 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16840 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16842 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16844 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16846 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16848 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16850 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16852 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16854 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16856 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16858 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16860 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16862 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16864 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16866 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16868 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16870 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16872 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16874 …}
      -id: 42554
      -password: "$2y$13$c3rfsCSay7QnXoMBZadPwOzCmXtz8Ph5I8AstuZVXpKKROpRsgqw."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16876 …}
      +apId: "Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/Edgarallenpwn"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/Edgarallenpwn"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "Edgarallenpwn"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577495 {#16814
        date: 2024-10-22 08:11:35.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
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        \n
        Rules:\n
        \n
        - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
        - No spam posting.\n
        - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
        - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
        - No trolling.\n
        \n
        Resources:\n
        \n
        - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
        - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
        - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
        \n
        > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
        \n
        > Questions? DM the mods!
        """
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      I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
      \n
      1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
      2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
      3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
      """
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          I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
          \n
          I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
          """
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#17060
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    }
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        A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
        \n
        Rules:\n
        \n
        - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
        - No spam posting.\n
        - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
        - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
        - No trolling.\n
        \n
        Resources:\n
        \n
        - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
        - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
        - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
        \n
        > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
        \n
        > Questions? DM the mods!
        """
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    +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
    +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
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    +body: """
      I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
      \n
      1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
      2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
      3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
      """
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          I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
          \n
          I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
          """
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  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
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boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 16.0 MiB 0.67 ms
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        A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
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        Rules:\n
        \n
        - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
        - No spam posting.\n
        - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
        - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
        - No trolling.\n
        \n
        Resources:\n
        \n
        - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
        - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
        - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
        \n
        > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
        \n
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      I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
      \n
      1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
      2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
      3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
      """
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        +body: """
          I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
          \n
          I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
          """
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#17117
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      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16826 …}
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        date: 2023-08-25 21:23:51.0 +02:00
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    }
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16705 …}
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      +title: "selfhosted"
      +description: """
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        \n
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        \n
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        - No spam posting.\n
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        - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
        - No trolling.\n
        \n
        Resources:\n
        \n
        - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
        - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
        - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
        \n
        > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
        \n
        > Questions? DM the mods!
        """
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16706 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16708 …}
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    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
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    +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
    +url: null
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      I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
      \n
      1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
      2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
      3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
      """
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    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2659 …}
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      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270
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          -totpSecret: null
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            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
        +body: """
          I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
          \n
          I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
          """
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          date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
          "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2267 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2271 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2272 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2253 …}
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        +"title": 293479
      }
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    -id: 28133
    -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
    -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704825191
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
      date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
      date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 16.0 MiB 5.58 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
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      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
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        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16705 …}
        +name: "selfhosted@lemmy.world"
        +title: "selfhosted"
        +description: """
          A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
          \n
          Rules:\n
          \n
          - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
          - No spam posting.\n
          - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
          - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
          - No trolling.\n
          \n
          Resources:\n
          \n
          - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
          - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
          - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
          \n
          > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
          \n
          > Questions? DM the mods!
          """
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      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
      +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
        \n
        1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
        2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
        3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
        """
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
      +children: [
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      ]
      -id: 28133
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      }
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       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
    +body: """
      I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
      \n
      I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
      """
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      "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
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        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1692991431 {#16816
          date: 2023-08-25 21:23:51.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16705 …}
        +name: "selfhosted@lemmy.world"
        +title: "selfhosted"
        +description: """
          A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
          \n
          Rules:\n
          \n
          - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
          - No spam posting.\n
          - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
          - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
          - No trolling.\n
          \n
          Resources:\n
          \n
          - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
          - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
          - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
          \n
          > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
          \n
          > Questions? DM the mods!
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 222
        +entryCommentCount: 3916
        +postCount: 0
        +postCommentCount: 0
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729582735 {#16702
          date: 2024-10-22 09:38:55.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16706 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16708 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16710 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16712 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16714 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16716 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16718 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16720 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16722 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16724 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16726 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#16728 …}
        -id: 120
        +apId: "selfhosted@lemmy.world"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.world/c/selfhosted/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.world/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.world"
        +apPreferredUsername: "selfhosted"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1703473826 {#16703
          date: 2023-12-25 04:10:26.0 +01:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703473826 {#16704
          date: 2023-12-25 04:10:26.0 +01:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
      +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
        \n
        1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
        2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
        3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
        """
      +type: "article"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: false
      +commentCount: 50
      +favouriteCount: 59
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1723332587 {#2652
        date: 2024-08-11 01:29:47.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2659 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2661 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2663 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270}
      ]
      -id: 28133
      -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
      -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1704825191
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
        date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
        date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
    +body: """
      I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
      \n
      I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 1
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1704808692 {#2200
      date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
      "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2267 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2271 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2272 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2253 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2262 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2264 …}
    -id: 293479
    -bodyTs: "'ahead':30 'arr':87 'bit':73 'compose.yml':109 'configur':29 'contain':52,124 'coordin':104 'correct':54 'determin':27 'differen':37 'direct':49 'docker':84,123 'easi':102 'file':110 'fuss':71 'get':114 'go':64 'long':9 'lxc':34,92,126 'm':58 'map':41,76 'mount':14,46,105,118 'need':69 'network':15,116 'person':78 'point':106 'prepar':25 'proper':13 'proxmox':18 'read/write':120 'realli':8 'root':39 'rout':66 'run':82 's/lxc':20 'sambashar':96 'second':2 'separ':91 'servic':99 'smb':48 'someon':53 'still':112 'storag':16,117 'stream':98 'suit':88 'time':10,32 'took':5 'tricki':113 'unprivilag':33 'user':40,75 'vm':19,81 'within':121 'wrong':59"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031622"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
      date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293479
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 16.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#17413
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
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    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
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  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 16.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#17469
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 16.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#17523
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 16.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
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    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
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    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
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    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
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    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#17577
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
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          \n
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          \n
          - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
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          - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
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          - No trolling.\n
          \n
          Resources:\n
          \n
          - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
          - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
          - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
          \n
          > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
          \n
          > Questions? DM the mods!
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        I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
        \n
        1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
        2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
        3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
        """
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    +body: """
      I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
      \n
      I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
      """
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        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#16705 …}
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        +title: "selfhosted"
        +description: """
          A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
          \n
          Rules:\n
          \n
          - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
          - No spam posting.\n
          - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
          - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
          - No trolling.\n
          \n
          Resources:\n
          \n
          - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
          - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
          - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
          \n
          > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
          \n
          > Questions? DM the mods!
          """
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      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
      +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
        \n
        1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
        2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
        3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
        """
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      +children: [
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      ]
      -id: 28133
      -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
      -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
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      }
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       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …2}
    +image: null
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    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
    +body: """
      I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
      \n
      I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
      """
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      "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
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    -id: 293479
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          \n
          Rules:\n
          \n
          - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
          - No spam posting.\n
          - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
          - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
          - No trolling.\n
          \n
          Resources:\n
          \n
          - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
          - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
          - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
          \n
          > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
          \n
          > Questions? DM the mods!
          """
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        I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
        \n
        1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
        2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
        3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
        """
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      I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
      \n
      I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
      """
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]
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        +title: "selfhosted"
        +description: """
          A place to share alternatives to popular online services that can be self-hosted without giving up privacy or locking you into a service you don’t control.\n
          \n
          Rules:\n
          \n
          - Be civil: we’re here to support and learn from one another. Insults won’t be tolerated. Flame wars are frowned upon.\n
          - No spam posting.\n
          - Don’t duplicate the full text of your blog or github here. Just post the link for folks to click.\n
          - Submission headline should match the article title (don’t cherry-pick information from the title to fit your agenda).\n
          - No trolling.\n
          \n
          Resources:\n
          \n
          - [awesome-selfhosted software](https://github.com/awesome-selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted)\n
          - [awesome-sysadmin](https://github.com/awesome-foss/awesome-sysadmin) resources\n
          - [Self-Hosted Podcast from Jupiter Broadcasting](https://selfhosted.show)\n
          \n
          > Any issues on the community? Report it using the report flag.\n
          \n
          > Questions? DM the mods!
          """
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      +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
      +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
        \n
        1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
        2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
        3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
        """
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      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2661 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2663 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270}
      ]
      -id: 28133
      -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
      -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1704825191
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
        date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
        date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
    +body: """
      I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
      \n
      I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 1
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1704808692 {#2200
      date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
      "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2267 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2271 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2272 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2253 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2262 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2264 …}
    -id: 293479
    -bodyTs: "'ahead':30 'arr':87 'bit':73 'compose.yml':109 'configur':29 'contain':52,124 'coordin':104 'correct':54 'determin':27 'differen':37 'direct':49 'docker':84,123 'easi':102 'file':110 'fuss':71 'get':114 'go':64 'long':9 'lxc':34,92,126 'm':58 'map':41,76 'mount':14,46,105,118 'need':69 'network':15,116 'person':78 'point':106 'prepar':25 'proper':13 'proxmox':18 'read/write':120 'realli':8 'root':39 'rout':66 'run':82 's/lxc':20 'sambashar':96 'second':2 'separ':91 'servic':99 'smb':48 'someon':53 'still':112 'storag':16,117 'stream':98 'suit':88 'time':10,32 'took':5 'tricki':113 'unprivilag':33 'user':40,75 'vm':19,81 'within':121 'wrong':59"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031622"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
      date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293479
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 16.0 MiB 5.86 ms
Input props 
[
  "entry" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729519089 {#18072
        date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18076 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18078 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18080 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18082 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18084 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18086 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18088 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18090 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18092 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18094 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18096 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18098 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18100 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18102 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18104 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18106 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18108 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18110 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18112 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18114 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18116 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18118 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18120 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18122 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18124 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18126 …}
      -id: 6911
      -password: "$2y$13$tvDZJuZpbEBKVvyDO2ivQetg917pCmRzhhjP36z71pN/wUULz2/ie"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18128 …}
      +apId: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "TheImpressiveX"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577204 {#18073
        date: 2024-10-22 08:06:44.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687448444 {#18074
        date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
      -id: 51
      +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
    +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
    +body: """
      And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
      \n
      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
      """
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 41
    +favouriteCount: 605
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
      date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
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          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
          +showProfileSubscriptions: true
          +showProfileFollowings: true
          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
        +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
          date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
          "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
        -id: 349856
        -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6673767"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
          date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 349856
      }
    ]
    -id: 33746
    -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
    -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':5 '6':16 'agenc':48 'back':38 'bill':29 'communiti':41 'comput':13 'copyright':70 'd':22 'day':17 'dream':67 'edit':42 'electr':28 'far':25 'get':23 'give':37 'gonna':31 'good':35 'iso':59 'left':11 'lemmy.ml':4 'lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':3 'letter':47 'linux':58 'materi':71 'might':50 'never':19,66 'paper':63 'post':54 'qbittorr':8 'read':52 'research':62 'run':14 'scientif':61 'stat':9 'sting':32 'thought':20 'three':46 'three-lett':45 'upload':57,69 'would':65"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1706579615
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
      date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
      date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Attributes 
[
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent {#17958
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
  -newCommentMarkerCount: App\Kbin\NewCommentMarker\NewCommentMarkerCount {#3565 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -security: Symfony\Bundle\SecurityBundle\Security {#1101 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729519089 {#18072
        date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
    +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
    +body: """
      And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
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      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
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     …2
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  +isSingle: false
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}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 16.0 MiB 0.49 ms
Input props 
[
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    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
    +cover: null
    +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
    +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
    +roles: []
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#18035
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    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18128 …}
    +apId: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "TheImpressiveX"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577204 {#18073
      date: 2024-10-22 08:06:44.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687448444 {#18074
      date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 16.0 MiB 0.17 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
    date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#18149
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
    date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 16.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
    date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
    date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#18203
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
    date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
    date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
  }
}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 16.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
    +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +title: "piracy"
    +description: """
      ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
      \n
      **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
      \n
      **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
      \n
      **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
      \n
      **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
      \n
      - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
      - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
      - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
      - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
      \n
      [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
      \n
      ---
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 866
    +entryCommentCount: 20194
    +postCount: 7
    +postCommentCount: 149
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
      date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
    -id: 51
    +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
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    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
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    +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
      date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
      date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#18257
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
    +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +title: "piracy"
    +description: """
      ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
      \n
      **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
      \n
      **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
      \n
      **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
      \n
      **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
      \n
      - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
      - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
      - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
      - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
      \n
      [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
      \n
      ---
      """
    +rules: null
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    +postCount: 7
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    +isAdult: false
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
      date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
    -id: 51
    +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
      date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
      date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showTitle: true
  +fullName: false
  +stretchedLink: false
  +showAvatar: false
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 16.0 MiB 0.37 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729519089 {#18072
        date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
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      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
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      +markNewComments: false
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      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
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      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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      +isBanned: false
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18076 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18078 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18080 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18082 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18084 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18086 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18088 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18090 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18092 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18094 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18096 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18098 …}
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      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18102 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18104 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18106 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18108 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18110 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18112 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18114 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18116 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18118 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18120 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18122 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18124 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18126 …}
      -id: 6911
      -password: "$2y$13$tvDZJuZpbEBKVvyDO2ivQetg917pCmRzhhjP36z71pN/wUULz2/ie"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18128 …}
      +apId: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +privateKey: null
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      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577204 {#18073
        date: 2024-10-22 08:06:44.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687448444 {#18074
        date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
      -id: 51
      +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
    +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
    +body: """
      And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
      \n
      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
      """
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 41
    +favouriteCount: 605
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
      date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
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          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
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          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
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          +showProfileFollowings: true
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          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
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          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
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          -id: 7025
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          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
        +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
          date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
          "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
        -id: 349856
        -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
          date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 349856
      }
    ]
    -id: 33746
    -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1706579615
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
      date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
      date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#18313
  +subject: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729519089 {#18072
        date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
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      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18076 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18078 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18080 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18082 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18084 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18086 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18088 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18090 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18092 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18094 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18096 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18098 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18100 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18102 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18104 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18106 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18108 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18110 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18112 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18114 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18116 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18118 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18120 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18122 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18124 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18126 …}
      -id: 6911
      -password: "$2y$13$tvDZJuZpbEBKVvyDO2ivQetg917pCmRzhhjP36z71pN/wUULz2/ie"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18128 …}
      +apId: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "TheImpressiveX"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577204 {#18073
        date: 2024-10-22 08:06:44.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687448444 {#18074
        date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
      -id: 51
      +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
    +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
    +body: """
      And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
      \n
      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
      """
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 41
    +favouriteCount: 605
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
      date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
          +oauthGoogleId: null
          +oauthFacebookId: null
          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
          +showProfileSubscriptions: true
          +showProfileFollowings: true
          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
        +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
          date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
          "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
        -id: 349856
        -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6673767"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
          date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 349856
      }
    ]
    -id: 33746
    -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
    -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':5 '6':16 'agenc':48 'back':38 'bill':29 'communiti':41 'comput':13 'copyright':70 'd':22 'day':17 'dream':67 'edit':42 'electr':28 'far':25 'get':23 'give':37 'gonna':31 'good':35 'iso':59 'left':11 'lemmy.ml':4 'lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':3 'letter':47 'linux':58 'materi':71 'might':50 'never':19,66 'paper':63 'post':54 'qbittorr':8 'read':52 'research':62 'run':14 'scientif':61 'stat':9 'sting':32 'thought':20 'three':46 'three-lett':45 'upload':57,69 'would':65"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1706579615
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
      date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
      date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +formDest: "entry"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 16.0 MiB 0.74 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729519089 {#18072
        date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18076 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18078 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18080 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18082 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18084 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18086 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18088 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18090 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18092 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18094 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18096 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18098 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18100 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18102 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18104 …}
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      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18108 …}
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
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      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
      \n
      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
      """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
        +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
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          "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
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      date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#18370
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
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      +cover: null
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        date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
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      +customCss: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18076 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18078 …}
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        date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
    +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
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      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
      \n
      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
      """
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entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 18.0 MiB 5.39 ms
Input props 
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          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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      +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
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        And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
        \n
        It’s good to give back to the community.\n
        \n
        EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
        """
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       …2
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    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
    +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 6
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
      date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
    -id: 349856
    -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
    +ranking: 0
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
      date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 349856
  }
  "showEntryTitle" => false
  "dateAsUrl" => true
  "showMagazineName" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent {#18621
  +comment: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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      -id: 7025
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
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        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1729519089 {#18072
          date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +markNewComments: false
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        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
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        +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
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        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18076 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18078 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18080 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18082 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18084 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18086 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18088 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18090 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18092 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18094 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18096 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18098 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18100 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18102 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18104 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18106 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18108 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18110 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18112 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18114 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18116 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18118 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18120 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18122 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18124 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18126 …}
        -id: 6911
        -password: "$2y$13$tvDZJuZpbEBKVvyDO2ivQetg917pCmRzhhjP36z71pN/wUULz2/ie"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18128 …}
        +apId: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
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        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577204 {#18073
          date: 2024-10-22 08:06:44.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687448444 {#18074
          date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 866
        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
      +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
      +body: """
        And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
        \n
        It’s good to give back to the community.\n
        \n
        EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
        """
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 41
      +favouriteCount: 605
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
        date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158}
      ]
      -id: 33746
      -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
      -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':5 '6':16 'agenc':48 'back':38 'bill':29 'communiti':41 'comput':13 'copyright':70 'd':22 'day':17 'dream':67 'edit':42 'electr':28 'far':25 'get':23 'give':37 'gonna':31 'good':35 'iso':59 'left':11 'lemmy.ml':4 'lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':3 'letter':47 'linux':58 'materi':71 'might':50 'never':19,66 'paper':63 'post':54 'qbittorr':8 'read':52 'research':62 'run':14 'scientif':61 'stat':9 'sting':32 'thought':20 'three':46 'three-lett':45 'upload':57,69 'would':65"
      +cross: false
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      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1706579615
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
        date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
        date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
    +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 6
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
      date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
    -id: 349856
    -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
    +ranking: 0
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    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6673767"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
      date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 349856
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 16.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
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    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
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    +hideAdult: true
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    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#18666
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 16.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
    date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#18722
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
    date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 16.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
    date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#18776
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
    date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 16.0 MiB 0.22 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#18830
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 18.0 MiB 0.37 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
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      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1729519089 {#18072
          date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
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        +featuredMagazines: null
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        +markNewComments: false
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        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18076 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18078 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18080 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18082 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18084 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18086 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18088 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18090 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18092 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18094 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18096 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18098 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18100 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18102 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18104 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18106 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18108 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18110 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18112 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18114 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18116 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18118 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18120 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18122 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18124 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18126 …}
        -id: 6911
        -password: "$2y$13$tvDZJuZpbEBKVvyDO2ivQetg917pCmRzhhjP36z71pN/wUULz2/ie"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18128 …}
        +apId: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "TheImpressiveX"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +privateKey: null
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          date: 2024-10-22 08:06:44.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687448444 {#18074
          date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
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        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
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        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
      +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
      +body: """
        And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
        \n
        It’s good to give back to the community.\n
        \n
        EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
        """
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
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      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
        date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158}
      ]
      -id: 33746
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      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
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      +ranking: 1706579615
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        date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
        date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
    +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 6
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    +ip: null
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    +mentions: [
      "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
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    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
    -id: 349856
    -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
    +ranking: 0
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
      date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
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    +"title": 349856
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#18899
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +hideAdult: true
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      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
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      +markNewComments: false
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      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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      +privateKey: null
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        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#18075 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +username: "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729519089 {#18072
          date: 2024-10-21 15:58:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
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        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: true
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18076 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18078 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18080 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18082 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18084 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18086 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18088 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18090 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18092 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18094 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18096 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18098 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18100 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18102 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18104 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18106 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18108 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18110 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18112 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18114 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18116 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18118 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18120 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18122 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18124 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18126 …}
        -id: 6911
        -password: "$2y$13$tvDZJuZpbEBKVvyDO2ivQetg917pCmRzhhjP36z71pN/wUULz2/ie"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#18128 …}
        +apId: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "TheImpressiveX"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729577204 {#18073
          date: 2024-10-22 08:06:44.0 +02:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687448444 {#18074
          date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 866
        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
      +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
      +body: """
        And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
        \n
        It’s good to give back to the community.\n
        \n
        EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
        """
      +type: "image"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 41
      +favouriteCount: 605
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
        date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158}
      ]
      -id: 33746
      -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
      -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':5 '6':16 'agenc':48 'back':38 'bill':29 'communiti':41 'comput':13 'copyright':70 'd':22 'day':17 'dream':67 'edit':42 'electr':28 'far':25 'get':23 'give':37 'gonna':31 'good':35 'iso':59 'left':11 'lemmy.ml':4 'lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':3 'letter':47 'linux':58 'materi':71 'might':50 'never':19,66 'paper':63 'post':54 'qbittorr':8 'read':52 'research':62 'run':14 'scientif':61 'stat':9 'sting':32 'thought':20 'three':46 'three-lett':45 'upload':57,69 'would':65"
      +cross: false
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      +ranking: 1706579615
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
        date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
        date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
    +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 6
    +score: 0
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      date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
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    +ip: null
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    +mentions: [
      "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
      "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
    -id: 349856
    -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
    +ranking: 0
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      date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 349856
  }
  +formDest: "entry_comment"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 18.0 MiB 0.69 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
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        +title: "piracy"
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          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
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      +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
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        And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
        \n
        It’s good to give back to the community.\n
        \n
        EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
        """
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#18956
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        +apId: "TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/u/TheImpressiveX"
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        }
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687448444 {#18074
          date: 2023-06-22 17:40:44.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
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        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
      +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
      +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
      +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
      +body: """
        And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
        \n
        It’s good to give back to the community.\n
        \n
        EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
        """
      +type: "image"
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      +ip: null
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
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    +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
    +lang: "en"
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    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
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    -id: 349856
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    +"title": 349856
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  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 18.0 MiB 11.22 ms
Input props 
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       …2
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
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       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
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    +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
    +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
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      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
        +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701405568 {#2295
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
          "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
          "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
          "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
        -id: 293011
        -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5156986"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293011
      }
    ]
    -id: 18142
    -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701337922
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://sopuli.xyz/post/6388215"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
      date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Attributes 
[
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent {#19207
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
  -newCommentMarkerCount: App\Kbin\NewCommentMarker\NewCommentMarkerCount {#3565 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -security: Symfony\Bundle\SecurityBundle\Security {#1101 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
        date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19321 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19353 …}
      -id: 46662
      -password: "$2y$13$D2lyf6XRyucrZu9OodHNaOyZmI6vEVs2p/5hkovdmDzgh6NUsrnie"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
      +apId: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +apProfileId: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/inbox"
      +apDomain: "sopuli.xyz"
      +apPreferredUsername: "misk"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729339477 {#19293
        date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
        date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
      -id: 51
      +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
    +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
    +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
    +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 32
    +favouriteCount: 219
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1719301458 {#2671
      date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2681 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2683 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2685 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
          +oauthGoogleId: null
          +oauthFacebookId: null
          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
          +showProfileSubscriptions: true
          +showProfileFollowings: true
          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
        +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701405568 {#2295
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
          "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
          "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
          "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
        -id: 293011
        -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5156986"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293011
      }
    ]
    -id: 18142
    -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701337922
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://sopuli.xyz/post/6388215"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
      date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +isSingle: false
  +showShortSentence: true
  +showBody: false
  +showMagazineName: true
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +newComments: 0
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 18.0 MiB 2.28 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
    +cover: null
    +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
    +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
      date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: false
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19321 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19353 …}
    -id: 46662
    -password: "$2y$13$D2lyf6XRyucrZu9OodHNaOyZmI6vEVs2p/5hkovdmDzgh6NUsrnie"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
    +apId: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
    +apProfileId: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/inbox"
    +apDomain: "sopuli.xyz"
    +apPreferredUsername: "misk"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729339477 {#19293
      date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
      date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#19256
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
    +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
    +cover: null
    +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
    +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
      date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: false
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19321 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19353 …}
    -id: 46662
    -password: "$2y$13$D2lyf6XRyucrZu9OodHNaOyZmI6vEVs2p/5hkovdmDzgh6NUsrnie"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
    +apId: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
    +apProfileId: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/inbox"
    +apDomain: "sopuli.xyz"
    +apPreferredUsername: "misk"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729339477 {#19293
      date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
      date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 18.0 MiB 0.17 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
    date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#19375
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
    date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 18.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
    date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#19429
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
    date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 18.0 MiB 0.20 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
    +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +title: "piracy"
    +description: """
      ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
      \n
      **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
      \n
      **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
      \n
      **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
      \n
      **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
      \n
      - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
      - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
      - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
      - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
      \n
      [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
      \n
      ---
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 866
    +entryCommentCount: 20194
    +postCount: 7
    +postCommentCount: 149
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
      date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
    -id: 51
    +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
      date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
      date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#19483
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
    +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +title: "piracy"
    +description: """
      ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
      \n
      **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
      \n
      **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
      \n
      **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
      \n
      **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
      \n
      - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
      - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
      - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
      - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
      \n
      [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
      \n
      ---
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 866
    +entryCommentCount: 20194
    +postCount: 7
    +postCommentCount: 149
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
      date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
    -id: 51
    +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
      date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
      date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showTitle: true
  +fullName: false
  +stretchedLink: false
  +showAvatar: false
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 18.0 MiB 0.48 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
        date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19321 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19353 …}
      -id: 46662
      -password: "$2y$13$D2lyf6XRyucrZu9OodHNaOyZmI6vEVs2p/5hkovdmDzgh6NUsrnie"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
      +apId: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +apProfileId: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/inbox"
      +apDomain: "sopuli.xyz"
      +apPreferredUsername: "misk"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729339477 {#19293
        date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
        date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
      -id: 51
      +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
    +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
    +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
    +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 32
    +favouriteCount: 219
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1719301458 {#2671
      date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2681 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2683 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2685 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
          +oauthGoogleId: null
          +oauthFacebookId: null
          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
          +showProfileSubscriptions: true
          +showProfileFollowings: true
          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
        +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701405568 {#2295
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
          "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
          "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
          "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
        -id: 293011
        -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5156986"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293011
      }
    ]
    -id: 18142
    -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701337922
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://sopuli.xyz/post/6388215"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
      date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#19549
  +subject: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
        date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19321 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19353 …}
      -id: 46662
      -password: "$2y$13$D2lyf6XRyucrZu9OodHNaOyZmI6vEVs2p/5hkovdmDzgh6NUsrnie"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
      +apId: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +apProfileId: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/inbox"
      +apDomain: "sopuli.xyz"
      +apPreferredUsername: "misk"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729339477 {#19293
        date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
        date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
      -id: 51
      +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
    +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
    +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
    +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 32
    +favouriteCount: 219
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1719301458 {#2671
      date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2681 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2683 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2685 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
          +oauthGoogleId: null
          +oauthFacebookId: null
          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
          +showProfileSubscriptions: true
          +showProfileFollowings: true
          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
        +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701405568 {#2295
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
          "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
          "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
          "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
        -id: 293011
        -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5156986"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293011
      }
    ]
    -id: 18142
    -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1701337922
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://sopuli.xyz/post/6388215"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
      date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +formDest: "entry"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 18.0 MiB 0.78 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
        date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
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      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
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      -password: "$2y$13$D2lyf6XRyucrZu9OodHNaOyZmI6vEVs2p/5hkovdmDzgh6NUsrnie"
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      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
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      +apProfileId: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
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      +apInboxUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/inbox"
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      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729339477 {#19293
        date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
        date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
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      +postCommentCount: 149
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
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      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
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      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
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        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
    +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
    +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
    +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
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    +type: "link"
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      date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
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          +addMentionsPosts: true
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          +customCss: null
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          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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          -id: 7025
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          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
        +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1701405568 {#2295
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
          "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
          "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
          "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
        -id: 293011
        -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 293011
      }
    ]
    -id: 18142
    -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1701337922
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://sopuli.xyz/post/6388215"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
      date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#19606
  +formDest: "entry"
  +subject: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
      +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
      +cover: null
      +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
        date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: false
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19321 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19353 …}
      -id: 46662
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
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      +apPublicUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
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      +apPreferredUsername: "misk"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
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        date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
        date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
      +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +title: "piracy"
      +description: """
        ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
        \n
        **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
        \n
        **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
        \n
        **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
        \n
        **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
        \n
        - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
        - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
        - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
        - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
        \n
        [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
        \n
        ---
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 866
      +entryCommentCount: 20194
      +postCount: 7
      +postCommentCount: 149
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
        date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
      -id: 51
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      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +publicKey: null
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        date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
        date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
    +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
    +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
    +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
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      date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
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    +ip: null
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    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2681 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
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          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
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          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
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          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
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          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
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          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
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          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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          -totpSecret: null
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          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
        +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        +ip: null
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          "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
          "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
          "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
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        -id: 293011
        -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 293011
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    -id: 18142
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    -bodyTs: null
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
      date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 18.0 MiB 7.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "comment" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
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      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
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      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
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      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
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      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
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      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
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      -id: 7025
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
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      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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      +privateKey: null
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        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
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          date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
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        +customCss: null
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        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
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        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
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        -id: 46662
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        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
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          date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 866
        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
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        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
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        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
      +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
      +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
      +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
      +body: null
      +type: "link"
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
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      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2681 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2683 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2685 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283}
      ]
      -id: 18142
      -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
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        date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
    +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 1
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1701405568 {#2295
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    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
      "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
      "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
    -id: 293011
    -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
    +ranking: 0
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5156986"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
      date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293011
  }
  "showEntryTitle" => false
  "dateAsUrl" => true
  "showMagazineName" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent {#19867
  +comment: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +customCss: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
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      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
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      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
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      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
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      -id: 7025
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      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
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      +privateKey: null
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        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
          date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
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        +hideAdult: true
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        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
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        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
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        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
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        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
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        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19353 …}
        -id: 46662
        -password: "$2y$13$D2lyf6XRyucrZu9OodHNaOyZmI6vEVs2p/5hkovdmDzgh6NUsrnie"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
        +apId: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +apProfileId: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/inbox"
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        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729339477 {#19293
          date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
          date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
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          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
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        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
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        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
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        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
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          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
      +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
      +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
      +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
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      +type: "link"
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
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      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283}
      ]
      -id: 18142
      -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
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        date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
    +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 1
    +score: 0
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    }
    +ip: null
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    +mentions: [
      "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
      "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
      "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
    -id: 293011
    -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
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    +editedAt: null
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      date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293011
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 18.0 MiB 0.16 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
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    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
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    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
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    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
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    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#19912
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
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    +addMentionsEntries: false
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    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
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    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
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    +apDiscoverable: true
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    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 18.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
    date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#19968
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
    date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 18.0 MiB 0.10 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
    date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#20022
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
    date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 18.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
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    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
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    +markNewComments: false
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    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
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    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
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    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#20076
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
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    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
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    +addMentionsPosts: true
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    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +privateKey: null
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      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
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      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 18.0 MiB 0.39 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
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      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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      +privateKey: null
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      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
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          date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +customCss: null
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        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
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        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
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        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
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          date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
          date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
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          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
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        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
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        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
      +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
      +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
      +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
      +body: null
      +type: "link"
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
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      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2681 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283}
      ]
      -id: 18142
      -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
      -bodyTs: null
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
        date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
    +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 1
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1701405568 {#2295
      date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
      "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
      "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
    -id: 293011
    -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5156986"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
      date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293011
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#20145
  +subject: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
          date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19321 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19351 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19353 …}
        -id: 46662
        -password: "$2y$13$D2lyf6XRyucrZu9OodHNaOyZmI6vEVs2p/5hkovdmDzgh6NUsrnie"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
        +apId: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +apProfileId: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/u/misk"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://sopuli.xyz/inbox"
        +apDomain: "sopuli.xyz"
        +apPreferredUsername: "misk"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729339477 {#19293
          date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
          date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 866
        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
        +apId: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1708748229 {#3618
          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697197339 {#3619
          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
      +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
      +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
      +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
      +body: null
      +type: "link"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: false
      +commentCount: 32
      +favouriteCount: 219
      +score: 0
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      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1719301458 {#2671
        date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2681 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2683 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2685 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283}
      ]
      -id: 18142
      -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
      -bodyTs: null
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1701337922
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://sopuli.xyz/post/6388215"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
        date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
    +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 1
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1701405568 {#2295
      date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
      "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
      "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
      "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2217 …}
    -id: 293011
    -bodyTs: "'actual':3 'alway':7 'consid':4 'extra':16 'layer':17 'privaci':19 'remot':12 'seedbox':5 'thing':13 'thought':8"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5156986"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701405568 {#2281
      date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293011
  }
  +formDest: "entry_comment"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 18.0 MiB 0.95 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729059240 {#19296
          date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
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        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
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        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
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        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
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        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
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        +privateKey: null
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          date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
          date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
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          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
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        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
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          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
      +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
      +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
      +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
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      +type: "link"
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2681 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2683 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2685 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2687 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2689 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283}
      ]
      -id: 18142
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      +cross: false
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        date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278 …}
    +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
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    +score: 0
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    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
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      "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
      "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
      "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2275 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2261 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2218 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2221 …}
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    -id: 293011
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    +ranking: 0
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      date: 2023-12-01 05:39:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 293011
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#20202
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
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      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
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        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +featuredMagazines: null
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      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
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      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
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      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
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      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
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      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
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      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635
        +avatar: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#19301 …}
        +cover: null
        +email: "misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +username: "@misk@sopuli.xyz"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "ex [misk@lemm.ee](https://lemm.ee/u/misk)ex [misk@sh.itjust.works](https://sh.itjust.works/u/misk)"
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          date: 2024-10-16 08:14:00.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: false
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: true
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: true
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        +notifyOnNewPostReply: true
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: true
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        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19303 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19305 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19307 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19309 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19311 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19313 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19315 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19317 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19319 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19321 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19323 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19325 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19327 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19329 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19331 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19333 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19335 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19337 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19339 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19341 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19343 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19345 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19347 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19349 …}
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        -id: 46662
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        -totpSecret: null
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        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#19355 …}
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        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
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          date: 2024-10-19 14:04:37.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1695363895 {#19295
          date: 2023-09-22 08:24:55.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#3620 …}
        +name: "piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        +title: "piracy"
        +description: """
          ##### ⚓ Community devoted to in-depth debate on topics concerning digital piracy, ethical problems, and legal advancements.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ### Rules • [Full Version](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          **1**. Posts must be related to the discussion of digital piracy\n
          \n
          **2**. Don’t request invites, trade, sell, or self-promote\n
          \n
          **3**. Don’t request or link to specific pirated titles, including DMs\n
          \n
          **4**. Don’t submit low-quality posts, be entitled, or harass others\n
          \n
          **5**. Don’t post questions already answered. READ THE [WIKI](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          [![](https://a.imagem.app/oZoQ1v.png)](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/10901)\n
          ---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ### Loot, Pillage, & Plunder\n
          \n
          - [📜 Megathread](https://rentry.co/megathread)\n
          - [🪶 FAQ](https://rentry.co/piracy-faq)\n
          - [🪶 ISP Complaints](https://rentry.co/piracy-isp-complaints)\n
          - [🪶 Rules](https://rentry.co/piracy-rules)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          💰 Please help cover server costs.\n
          \n
          [![Ko-Fi](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/4a2f073a-3dd8-492a-942d-72bd929c9f1d.png)](https://ko-fi.com/dbzer0)[![Liberapay](https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/eec4659d-39be-4fc9-bc9e-66a96285ea2c.png)](https://liberapay.com/db0/)\n
          \n
          ---
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        +entryCommentCount: 20194
        +postCount: 7
        +postCommentCount: 149
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729581369 {#3617
          date: 2024-10-22 09:16:09.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3621 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3623 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3625 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3627 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3629 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3631 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3637 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3645 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3658 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3650 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#3674 …}
        -id: 51
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        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/piracy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/inbox"
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        +apPreferredUsername: "piracy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
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          date: 2024-02-24 05:17:09.0 +01:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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          date: 2023-10-13 13:42:19.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2678 …}
      +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
      +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
      +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
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        date: 2024-06-25 09:44:18.0 +02:00
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      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
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      +children: [
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      ]
      -id: 18142
      -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
      -bodyTs: null
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …2}
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    +body: "Is this actually considered seedboxing? I always thought it was a remote thing for an extra layer of privacy"
    +lang: "en"
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    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2276 …}
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    +"title": 293011
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 18.0 MiB 16.14 ms
Input props 
[
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#20603 …}
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       …2
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      +title: "asklemmy"
      +description: """
        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      +rules: null
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       …2
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
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    +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
    +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
    +body: """
      An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
      \n
      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
      \n
      I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
      \n
      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
      """
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    +children: [
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …2}
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        +body: """
          It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
          \n
          The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
          \n
          If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
          """
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          "@Lafari@lemmy.world"
          "@Bye@lemmy.world"
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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    -id: 24154
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     …2
  }
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Attributes 
[
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]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent {#20453
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
  -newCommentMarkerCount: App\Kbin\NewCommentMarker\NewCommentMarkerCount {#3565 …}
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  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -security: Symfony\Bundle\SecurityBundle\Security {#1101 …}
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
      \n
      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
      \n
      I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
      \n
      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
      """
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        +body: """
          It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
          \n
          The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
          \n
          If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
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date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 18.0 MiB 0.25 ms
Input props 
[
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#20676
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}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 18.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
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[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#20730
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}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 18.0 MiB 0.22 ms
Input props 
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      -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
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      ---\n
      \n
      **Rules: (interactive)**\n
      ------------------------\n
      \n
      ---\n
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      1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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      4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
      \n
      Partnered Communities:\n
      ----------------------\n
      \n
      [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
      """
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Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#20784
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      \n
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      \n
      ---\n
      \n
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      3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
      \n
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      4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
      \n
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      \n
      5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
      \n
      Partnered Communities:\n
      ----------------------\n
      \n
      [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 18.0 MiB 0.43 ms
Input props 
[
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#20603 …}
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127
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      +description: """
        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:47:25.0 +02:00
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       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
    +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
    +body: """
      An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
      \n
      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
      \n
      I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
      \n
      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
      """
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          It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
          \n
          The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
          \n
          If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
          """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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      An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
      \n
      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
      \n
      I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
      \n
      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
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          It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
          \n
          The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
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          """
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        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
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      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
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          It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
          \n
          The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
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          """
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Attributes 
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Component 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
      \n
      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
      \n
      I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
      \n
      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
      """
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        +body: """
          It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
          \n
          The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
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          A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
          -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules: (interactive)**\n
          ------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
          \n
          ---\n
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          2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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          3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
          \n
          ---\n
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          4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
          \n
          Partnered Communities:\n
          ----------------------\n
          \n
          [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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          [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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          [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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          [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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        People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
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      If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
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        +description: """
          A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
          -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules: (interactive)**\n
          ------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
          \n
          ---\n
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          2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
          \n
          Partnered Communities:\n
          ----------------------\n
          \n
          [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
          """
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
      +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
      +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
      +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
      +body: """
        An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
        \n
        People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
        \n
        I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
        \n
        Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
        """
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      ]
      -id: 24154
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        date: 2023-12-23 04:25:37.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2126 …}
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    +body: """
      It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
      \n
      The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
      \n
      If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
      """
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    +"title": 251544
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  +showMagazineName: false
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  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
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}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 18.0 MiB 0.16 ms
Input props 
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  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#21213
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}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 18.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#21269
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  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 18.0 MiB 0.11 ms
Input props 
[
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  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#21323
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  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 18.0 MiB 0.19 ms
Input props 
[
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  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#15094
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  +height: 40
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          A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
          -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
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          \n
          **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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          \n
          ---\n
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          1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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          4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
          \n
          ---\n
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          5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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          \n
          Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
          \n
          Partnered Communities:\n
          ----------------------\n
          \n
          [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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          [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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          [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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          [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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          [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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          Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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        People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
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        I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
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        Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
        """
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      It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
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      """
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Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#20533
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          A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
          -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
          \n
          ---\n
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          2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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          3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
          \n
          Partnered Communities:\n
          ----------------------\n
          \n
          [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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          [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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          [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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          [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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          [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
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          Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
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          ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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        People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
        \n
        I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
        \n
        Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
        """
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      It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
      \n
      The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
      \n
      If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
      """
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          A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
          -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules: (interactive)**\n
          ------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
          \n
          Partnered Communities:\n
          ----------------------\n
          \n
          [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
          """
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        People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
        \n
        I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
        \n
        Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
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      It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
      \n
      The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
      \n
      If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
      """
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        +name: "asklemmy@lemmy.world"
        +title: "asklemmy"
        +description: """
          A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
          -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          **Rules: (interactive)**\n
          ------------------------\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
          \n
          Partnered Communities:\n
          ----------------------\n
          \n
          [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
          \n
          ---\n
          \n
          ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        +entryCommentCount: 42676
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        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#20497 …}
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        +apId: "asklemmy@lemmy.world"
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          date: 2024-10-22 09:48:21.0 +02:00
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         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
      +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
      +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
      +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
      +body: """
        An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
        \n
        People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
        \n
        I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
        \n
        Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
        """
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        date: 2024-02-12 14:51:11.0 +01:00
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      +children: [
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      ]
      -id: 24154
      -titleTs: "'agre':9 'disagre':18 'major':21 'one':11 'peopl':3 'said':14 'someon':13 'stand':25 'thing':12 'understand':5"
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      +cross: false
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      +ranking: 1703388337
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9883787"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703301937 {#2715
        date: 2023-12-23 04:25:37.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2126 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043 …}
    +body: """
      It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
      \n
      The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
      \n
      If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
      """
    +lang: "en"
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      "@Bye@lemmy.world"
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    +"title": 251544
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 20.0 MiB 16.60 ms
Input props 
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       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
      +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "privacy"
      +description: """
        A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
        ============================================================\n
        \n
        Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
        \n
        In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
        \n
        ### Some Rules\n
        \n
        - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
        - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
        - Try to keep things on topic\n
        - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
        - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
        - Be nice :)\n
        \n
        ### Related communities\n
        \n
        - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
        - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
        \n
        ### Chat rooms\n
        \n
        - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
        - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
        \n
        much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
        """
      +rules: null
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      -id: 85
      +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
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        date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
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       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
    +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
    +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
    +type: "video"
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          +privateKey: null
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            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
          \n
          The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
          \n
          If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 11
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          date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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        -id: 217418
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        +"title": 217418
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    ]
    -id: 21645
    -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
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    +cross: false
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
      date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Attributes 
[
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent {#21492
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
  -newCommentMarkerCount: App\Kbin\NewCommentMarker\NewCommentMarkerCount {#3565 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -security: Symfony\Bundle\SecurityBundle\Security {#1101 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "I am no longer here, and have moved to lemmy.world"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1723054061 {#21621
        date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
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      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21626 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21628 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21632 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21634 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21636 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21638 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21640 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21642 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21644 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21646 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21648 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21650 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21652 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21654 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21656 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21658 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21660 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21662 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21664 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21666 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21670 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21672 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21674 …}
      -id: 23754
      -password: "$2y$13$Hq1ZuLK3N.cqXHNe8Y87yON8Jx.0V0sqaZ4TUIr4LOsipU3HXq7Km"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21676 …}
      +apId: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemm.ee/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemm.ee"
      +apPreferredUsername: "HurlingDurling"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728840650 {#21622
        date: 2024-10-13 19:30:50.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1689112242 {#21623
        date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
      +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "privacy"
      +description: """
        A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
        ============================================================\n
        \n
        Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
        \n
        In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
        \n
        ### Some Rules\n
        \n
        - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
        - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
        - Try to keep things on topic\n
        - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
        - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
        - Be nice :)\n
        \n
        ### Related communities\n
        \n
        - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
        - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
        \n
        ### Chat rooms\n
        \n
        - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
        - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
        \n
        much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 561
      +entryCommentCount: 7684
      +postCount: 6
      +postCommentCount: 73
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729582580 {#21532
        date: 2024-10-22 09:36:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21538 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21540 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21542 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21544 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21546 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21548 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21550 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21552 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21554 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21556 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21558 …}
      -id: 85
      +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583592 {#21533
        date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699780272 {#21534
        date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
    +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
    +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
    +type: "video"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 15
    +favouriteCount: 73
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702469336 {#2182
      date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2626 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2622 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
          +oauthGoogleId: null
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          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
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          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
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          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
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          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
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          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
          +apTimeoutAt: null
          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
          \n
          The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
          \n
          If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 11
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
          date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
        -id: 217418
        -bodyTs: "'-90':259 '80':258 'abl':21 'absolut':3 'accuraci':120,231 'action':65 'ad':224 'adblock':146 'almost':39 'alreadi':143 'also':198 'app':160,202 'aren':262 'assum':140 'avoid':32,181,199 'back':112 'bad':27 'biggest':156 'bound':242 'brows':154 'card':168 'case':134 'collect':37,79,162 'credit':167 'data':36,72,82,99,118,125,161,189,213,274 'dead':236 'dead-set':235 'degre':229 'easi':94 'edward':41 'essenti':107 'even':17,56,62 'explain':23 'feel':244,249 'footprint':275 'futur':10 'give':52 'given':221 'go':111 'good':250 'harder':269 'help':69 'helpless':245 'high':228 'imag':222 'in-person':175 'kind':50 'less':75,138,194 'level':43 'littl':74,253 'login':206 'long':216 'look':218 'lot':193 'make':70 'mani':85 'media':201 'much':81,268 'obsess':46 'onlin':170 'peopl':48,86,261 'perfect':239 'person':177 'phone':159 'plan':44 'portal':171 'possibl':8 'pretti':227 'profil':102 'purchas':164 're':20,78,142,234,241,266 'realli':89 'relev':122 'requir':208 'scrape':212 'set':237 'site':204 'sleepwalk':4 'small':64 'snowden':42 'social':200 'someon':25 'sour':128 'start':57 'step':254 'success':139,195 'take':40,68,256 'target':271 'tech':9 'thing':28,157 'tri':30 'truth':59 'type':34 'ubiquit':14 'use':133,144,187 'use-cas':132 'valuabl':76 'verifi':97 'via':169,272 'vpn':148 'way':95,109 'well':173 'worst':7 'would':38,197"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5431108"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
          date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217418
      }
    ]
    -id: 21645
    -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
    -bodyTs: "'actual':61 'becom':43 'cabin':27 'current':10,58 'defeat':4 'differ':64 'doesn':69 'everyth':55 'feel':3,8,53,71 'ghost':45 'help':51 'honest':2 'imposs':13 'internet':33 'like':9,54,72 'make':62 'move':24 'offlin':48 'one':20 'onlin':18 'privat':17 'right':5,66 'someon':50 'stay':16,47 'stop':36 'tech':38 'togeth':40 'truli':15,42 'unless':19 'use':37 'will':22 'wood':30"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702344361
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/17599563"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
      date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +isSingle: false
  +showShortSentence: true
  +showBody: false
  +showMagazineName: true
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +newComments: 0
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 18.0 MiB 8.34 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
    +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: "I am no longer here, and have moved to lemmy.world"
    +lastActive: DateTime @1723054061 {#21621
      date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21626 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21628 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21632 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21634 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21636 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21638 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21640 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21642 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21644 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21646 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21648 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21650 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21652 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21654 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21656 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21658 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21660 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21662 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21664 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21666 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21668 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21670 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21672 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21674 …}
    -id: 23754
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21676 …}
    +apId: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
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    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemm.ee/inbox"
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    +apDiscoverable: true
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    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728840650 {#21622
      date: 2024-10-13 19:30:50.0 +02:00
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    +apDeletedAt: null
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    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1689112242 {#21623
      date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#21584
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
    +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: "I am no longer here, and have moved to lemmy.world"
    +lastActive: DateTime @1723054061 {#21621
      date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21626 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21628 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21632 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21634 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21636 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21638 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21640 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21642 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21644 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21646 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21648 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21650 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21652 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21654 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21656 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21658 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21660 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21662 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21664 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21666 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21668 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21670 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21672 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21674 …}
    -id: 23754
    -password: "$2y$13$Hq1ZuLK3N.cqXHNe8Y87yON8Jx.0V0sqaZ4TUIr4LOsipU3HXq7Km"
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21676 …}
    +apId: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemm.ee/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemm.ee"
    +apPreferredUsername: "HurlingDurling"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728840650 {#21622
      date: 2024-10-13 19:30:50.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1689112242 {#21623
      date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 18.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
    date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#21697
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
    date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 18.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
    date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#21751
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
    date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 18.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
    +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "privacy"
    +description: """
      A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
      ============================================================\n
      \n
      Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
      \n
      In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
      \n
      ### Some Rules\n
      \n
      - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
      - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
      - Try to keep things on topic\n
      - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
      - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
      - Be nice :)\n
      \n
      ### Related communities\n
      \n
      - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
      - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
      - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
      - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
      \n
      ### Chat rooms\n
      \n
      - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
      - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
      \n
      much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 561
    +entryCommentCount: 7684
    +postCount: 6
    +postCommentCount: 73
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729582580 {#21532
      date: 2024-10-22 09:36:20.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21538 …}
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    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21542 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21544 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21546 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21548 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21550 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21552 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21554 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21556 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21558 …}
    -id: 85
    +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583592 {#21533
      date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699780272 {#21534
      date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#21805
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
    +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "privacy"
    +description: """
      A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
      ============================================================\n
      \n
      Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
      \n
      In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
      \n
      ### Some Rules\n
      \n
      - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
      - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
      - Try to keep things on topic\n
      - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
      - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
      - Be nice :)\n
      \n
      ### Related communities\n
      \n
      - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
      - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
      - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
      - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
      \n
      ### Chat rooms\n
      \n
      - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
      - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
      \n
      much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 561
    +entryCommentCount: 7684
    +postCount: 6
    +postCommentCount: 73
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729582580 {#21532
      date: 2024-10-22 09:36:20.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21538 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21540 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21542 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21544 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21546 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21548 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21550 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21552 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21554 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21556 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21558 …}
    -id: 85
    +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583592 {#21533
      date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699780272 {#21534
      date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +showTitle: true
  +fullName: false
  +stretchedLink: false
  +showAvatar: false
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 20.0 MiB 0.45 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "I am no longer here, and have moved to lemmy.world"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1723054061 {#21621
        date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21626 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21628 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21632 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21634 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21636 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21638 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21640 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21642 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21644 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21646 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21648 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21650 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21652 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21654 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21656 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21658 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21660 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21662 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21664 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21666 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21670 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21672 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21674 …}
      -id: 23754
      -password: "$2y$13$Hq1ZuLK3N.cqXHNe8Y87yON8Jx.0V0sqaZ4TUIr4LOsipU3HXq7Km"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21676 …}
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      +apFollowersUrl: null
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +privateKey: null
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        date: 2024-10-13 19:30:50.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
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        date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
      +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "privacy"
      +description: """
        A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
        ============================================================\n
        \n
        Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
        \n
        In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
        \n
        ### Some Rules\n
        \n
        - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
        - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
        - Try to keep things on topic\n
        - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
        - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
        - Be nice :)\n
        \n
        ### Related communities\n
        \n
        - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
        - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
        \n
        ### Chat rooms\n
        \n
        - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
        - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
        \n
        much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 561
      +entryCommentCount: 7684
      +postCount: 6
      +postCommentCount: 73
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729582580 {#21532
        date: 2024-10-22 09:36:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21538 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21540 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21542 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21544 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21546 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21548 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21550 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21552 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21554 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21556 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21558 …}
      -id: 85
      +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583592 {#21533
        date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699780272 {#21534
        date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
    +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
    +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
    +type: "video"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 15
    +favouriteCount: 73
    +score: 0
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            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
          \n
          The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
          \n
          If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        }
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          "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
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    ]
    -id: 21645
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      date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#21871
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        date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
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        date: 2024-10-13 19:30:50.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
      +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "privacy"
      +description: """
        A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
        ============================================================\n
        \n
        Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
        \n
        In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
        \n
        ### Some Rules\n
        \n
        - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
        - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
        - Try to keep things on topic\n
        - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
        - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
        - Be nice :)\n
        \n
        ### Related communities\n
        \n
        - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
        - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
        \n
        ### Chat rooms\n
        \n
        - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
        - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
        \n
        much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
        """
      +rules: null
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:36:20.0 +02:00
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21538 …}
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      +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
      }
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        date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
    +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
    +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
    +type: "video"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 15
    +favouriteCount: 73
    +score: 0
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    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702469336 {#2182
      date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2626 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2622 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
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          +markedForDeletionAt: null
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          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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          +addMentionsPosts: true
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          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
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          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
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            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
          \n
          The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
          \n
          If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 11
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
          date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
        -id: 217418
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        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5431108"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
          date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217418
      }
    ]
    -id: 21645
    -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702344361
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/17599563"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
      date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +formDest: "entry"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 20.0 MiB 0.71 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "I am no longer here, and have moved to lemmy.world"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1723054061 {#21621
        date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
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      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21626 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21628 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21632 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21634 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21636 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21638 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21640 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21642 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21644 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21646 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21648 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21650 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21652 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21654 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21656 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21658 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21660 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21662 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21664 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21666 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21668 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21670 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21672 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21674 …}
      -id: 23754
      -password: "$2y$13$Hq1ZuLK3N.cqXHNe8Y87yON8Jx.0V0sqaZ4TUIr4LOsipU3HXq7Km"
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21676 …}
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      +apProfileId: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemm.ee/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemm.ee"
      +apPreferredUsername: "HurlingDurling"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728840650 {#21622
        date: 2024-10-13 19:30:50.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1689112242 {#21623
        date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
      +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "privacy"
      +description: """
        A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
        ============================================================\n
        \n
        Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
        \n
        In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
        \n
        ### Some Rules\n
        \n
        - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
        - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
        - Try to keep things on topic\n
        - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
        - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
        - Be nice :)\n
        \n
        ### Related communities\n
        \n
        - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
        - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
        \n
        ### Chat rooms\n
        \n
        - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
        - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
        \n
        much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 561
      +entryCommentCount: 7684
      +postCount: 6
      +postCommentCount: 73
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729582580 {#21532
        date: 2024-10-22 09:36:20.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21538 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21540 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21542 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21544 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21546 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21548 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21550 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21552 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21554 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21556 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21558 …}
      -id: 85
      +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583592 {#21533
        date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699780272 {#21534
        date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
    +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
    +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
    +type: "video"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 15
    +favouriteCount: 73
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702469336 {#2182
      date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2626 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2622 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261
          +avatar: null
          +cover: null
          +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          +roles: []
          +followersCount: 0
          +homepage: "front"
          +about: null
          +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
            date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
          }
          +markedForDeletionAt: null
          +fields: null
          +oauthGithubId: null
          +oauthGoogleId: null
          +oauthFacebookId: null
          +oauthKeycloakId: null
          +hideAdult: true
          +showSubscribedUsers: true
          +showSubscribedMagazines: true
          +showSubscribedDomains: true
          +preferredLanguages: []
          +featuredMagazines: null
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          +showProfileFollowings: true
          +markNewComments: false
          +notifyOnNewEntry: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
          +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPost: false
          +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
          +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
          +addMentionsEntries: false
          +addMentionsPosts: true
          +isBanned: false
          +isVerified: false
          +isDeleted: false
          +isBot: false
          +spamProtection: true
          +customCss: null
          +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
          +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
          +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
          +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
          +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
          +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
          +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
          +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
          +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
          +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
          +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
          +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
          +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
          +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
          +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
          +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
          +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
          +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
          +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
          +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
          +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
          +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
          +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
          +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
          +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
          +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
          +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
          -id: 7025
          -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
          -totpSecret: null
          -totpBackupCodes: []
          -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
          +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
          +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
          +apFollowersUrl: null
          +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
          +apDomain: "midwest.social"
          +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
          +apDiscoverable: true
          +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
          +privateKey: null
          +publicKey: null
          +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
            date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
          }
          +apDeletedAt: null
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          +visibility: "visible             "
          +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
          }
        }
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
          \n
          The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
          \n
          If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 11
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
          date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
        -id: 217418
        -bodyTs: "'-90':259 '80':258 'abl':21 'absolut':3 'accuraci':120,231 'action':65 'ad':224 'adblock':146 'almost':39 'alreadi':143 'also':198 'app':160,202 'aren':262 'assum':140 'avoid':32,181,199 'back':112 'bad':27 'biggest':156 'bound':242 'brows':154 'card':168 'case':134 'collect':37,79,162 'credit':167 'data':36,72,82,99,118,125,161,189,213,274 'dead':236 'dead-set':235 'degre':229 'easi':94 'edward':41 'essenti':107 'even':17,56,62 'explain':23 'feel':244,249 'footprint':275 'futur':10 'give':52 'given':221 'go':111 'good':250 'harder':269 'help':69 'helpless':245 'high':228 'imag':222 'in-person':175 'kind':50 'less':75,138,194 'level':43 'littl':74,253 'login':206 'long':216 'look':218 'lot':193 'make':70 'mani':85 'media':201 'much':81,268 'obsess':46 'onlin':170 'peopl':48,86,261 'perfect':239 'person':177 'phone':159 'plan':44 'portal':171 'possibl':8 'pretti':227 'profil':102 'purchas':164 're':20,78,142,234,241,266 'realli':89 'relev':122 'requir':208 'scrape':212 'set':237 'site':204 'sleepwalk':4 'small':64 'snowden':42 'social':200 'someon':25 'sour':128 'start':57 'step':254 'success':139,195 'take':40,68,256 'target':271 'tech':9 'thing':28,157 'tri':30 'truth':59 'type':34 'ubiquit':14 'use':133,144,187 'use-cas':132 'valuabl':76 'verifi':97 'via':169,272 'vpn':148 'way':95,109 'well':173 'worst':7 'would':38,197"
        +ranking: 0
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        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5431108"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
          date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 217418
      }
    ]
    -id: 21645
    -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
    -bodyTs: "'actual':61 'becom':43 'cabin':27 'current':10,58 'defeat':4 'differ':64 'doesn':69 'everyth':55 'feel':3,8,53,71 'ghost':45 'help':51 'honest':2 'imposs':13 'internet':33 'like':9,54,72 'make':62 'move':24 'offlin':48 'one':20 'onlin':18 'privat':17 'right':5,66 'someon':50 'stay':16,47 'stop':36 'tech':38 'togeth':40 'truli':15,42 'unless':19 'use':37 'will':22 'wood':30"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702344361
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/17599563"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
      date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#21928
  +formDest: "entry"
  +subject: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: "I am no longer here, and have moved to lemmy.world"
      +lastActive: DateTime @1723054061 {#21621
        date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
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        date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
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    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
      +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "privacy"
      +description: """
        A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
        ============================================================\n
        \n
        Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
        \n
        In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
        \n
        ### Some Rules\n
        \n
        - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
        - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
        - Try to keep things on topic\n
        - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
        - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
        - Be nice :)\n
        \n
        ### Related communities\n
        \n
        - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
        - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
        - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
        \n
        ### Chat rooms\n
        \n
        - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
        - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
        \n
        much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
        """
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        date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
    +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
    +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
    +type: "video"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: true
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            date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: """
          We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
          \n
          The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
          \n
          If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
          """
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        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
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        -id: 217418
        -bodyTs: "'-90':259 '80':258 'abl':21 'absolut':3 'accuraci':120,231 'action':65 'ad':224 'adblock':146 'almost':39 'alreadi':143 'also':198 'app':160,202 'aren':262 'assum':140 'avoid':32,181,199 'back':112 'bad':27 'biggest':156 'bound':242 'brows':154 'card':168 'case':134 'collect':37,79,162 'credit':167 'data':36,72,82,99,118,125,161,189,213,274 'dead':236 'dead-set':235 'degre':229 'easi':94 'edward':41 'essenti':107 'even':17,56,62 'explain':23 'feel':244,249 'footprint':275 'futur':10 'give':52 'given':221 'go':111 'good':250 'harder':269 'help':69 'helpless':245 'high':228 'imag':222 'in-person':175 'kind':50 'less':75,138,194 'level':43 'littl':74,253 'login':206 'long':216 'look':218 'lot':193 'make':70 'mani':85 'media':201 'much':81,268 'obsess':46 'onlin':170 'peopl':48,86,261 'perfect':239 'person':177 'phone':159 'plan':44 'portal':171 'possibl':8 'pretti':227 'profil':102 'purchas':164 're':20,78,142,234,241,266 'realli':89 'relev':122 'requir':208 'scrape':212 'set':237 'site':204 'sleepwalk':4 'small':64 'snowden':42 'social':200 'someon':25 'sour':128 'start':57 'step':254 'success':139,195 'take':40,68,256 'target':271 'tech':9 'thing':28,157 'tri':30 'truth':59 'type':34 'ubiquit':14 'use':133,144,187 'use-cas':132 'valuabl':76 'verifi':97 'via':169,272 'vpn':148 'way':95,109 'well':173 'worst':7 'would':38,197"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5431108"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
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        +"title": 217418
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    ]
    -id: 21645
    -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
    -bodyTs: "'actual':61 'becom':43 'cabin':27 'current':10,58 'defeat':4 'differ':64 'doesn':69 'everyth':55 'feel':3,8,53,71 'ghost':45 'help':51 'honest':2 'imposs':13 'internet':33 'like':9,54,72 'make':62 'move':24 'offlin':48 'one':20 'onlin':18 'privat':17 'right':5,66 'someon':50 'stay':16,47 'stop':36 'tech':38 'togeth':40 'truli':15,42 'unless':19 'use':37 'will':22 'wood':30"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1702344361
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     …2
  }
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry_comment App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent 20.0 MiB 5.65 ms
Input props 
[
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      }
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        +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "privacy"
        +description: """
          A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
          ============================================================\n
          \n
          Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
          \n
          In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
          \n
          ### Some Rules\n
          \n
          - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
          - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
          - Try to keep things on topic\n
          - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
          - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
          - Be nice :)\n
          \n
          ### Related communities\n
          \n
          - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
          - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
          \n
          ### Chat rooms\n
          \n
          - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
          - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
          \n
          much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
          """
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      }
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      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
      +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
      +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
      +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
      +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
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    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
      \n
      The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
      \n
      If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
      """
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Attributes 
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Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent {#22179
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        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
        +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "privacy"
        +description: """
          A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
          ============================================================\n
          \n
          Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
          \n
          In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
          \n
          ### Some Rules\n
          \n
          - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
          - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
          - Try to keep things on topic\n
          - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
          - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
          - Be nice :)\n
          \n
          ### Related communities\n
          \n
          - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
          - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
          \n
          ### Chat rooms\n
          \n
          - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
          - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
          \n
          much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
          """
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      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
      +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
      +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
      +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
      +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
      +type: "video"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 15
      +favouriteCount: 73
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702469336 {#2182
        date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2626 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2622 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058}
      ]
      -id: 21645
      -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
      -bodyTs: "'actual':61 'becom':43 'cabin':27 'current':10,58 'defeat':4 'differ':64 'doesn':69 'everyth':55 'feel':3,8,53,71 'ghost':45 'help':51 'honest':2 'imposs':13 'internet':33 'like':9,54,72 'make':62 'move':24 'offlin':48 'one':20 'onlin':18 'privat':17 'right':5,66 'someon':50 'stay':16,47 'stop':36 'tech':38 'togeth':40 'truli':15,42 'unless':19 'use':37 'will':22 'wood':30"
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1702344361
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/17599563"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
        date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
      \n
      The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
      \n
      If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 11
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
      date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
    -id: 217418
    -bodyTs: "'-90':259 '80':258 'abl':21 'absolut':3 'accuraci':120,231 'action':65 'ad':224 'adblock':146 'almost':39 'alreadi':143 'also':198 'app':160,202 'aren':262 'assum':140 'avoid':32,181,199 'back':112 'bad':27 'biggest':156 'bound':242 'brows':154 'card':168 'case':134 'collect':37,79,162 'credit':167 'data':36,72,82,99,118,125,161,189,213,274 'dead':236 'dead-set':235 'degre':229 'easi':94 'edward':41 'essenti':107 'even':17,56,62 'explain':23 'feel':244,249 'footprint':275 'futur':10 'give':52 'given':221 'go':111 'good':250 'harder':269 'help':69 'helpless':245 'high':228 'imag':222 'in-person':175 'kind':50 'less':75,138,194 'level':43 'littl':74,253 'login':206 'long':216 'look':218 'lot':193 'make':70 'mani':85 'media':201 'much':81,268 'obsess':46 'onlin':170 'peopl':48,86,261 'perfect':239 'person':177 'phone':159 'plan':44 'portal':171 'possibl':8 'pretti':227 'profil':102 'purchas':164 're':20,78,142,234,241,266 'realli':89 'relev':122 'requir':208 'scrape':212 'set':237 'site':204 'sleepwalk':4 'small':64 'snowden':42 'social':200 'someon':25 'sour':128 'start':57 'step':254 'success':139,195 'take':40,68,256 'target':271 'tech':9 'thing':28,157 'tri':30 'truth':59 'type':34 'ubiquit':14 'use':133,144,187 'use-cas':132 'valuabl':76 'verifi':97 'via':169,272 'vpn':148 'way':95,109 'well':173 'worst':7 'would':38,197"
    +ranking: 0
    +commentCount: 0
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5431108"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
      date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 217418
  }
  +showMagazineName: false
  +showEntryTitle: false
  +showNested: false
  +level: 1
  +canSeeTrash: false
  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 20.0 MiB 0.33 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#22224
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
    -id: 7025
    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +showAvatar: false
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 20.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
    date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#22280
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
    date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 20.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
    date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
  }
  "editedAt" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#22334
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
    date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: null
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 20.0 MiB 0.16 ms
Input props 
[
  "user" => App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
    +notifyOnNewEntry: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
    +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPost: false
    +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
    +addMentionsEntries: false
    +addMentionsPosts: true
    +isBanned: false
    +isVerified: false
    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
    +apFollowersUrl: null
    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#22388
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
    +followersCount: 0
    +homepage: "front"
    +about: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +fields: null
    +oauthGithubId: null
    +oauthGoogleId: null
    +oauthFacebookId: null
    +oauthKeycloakId: null
    +hideAdult: true
    +showSubscribedUsers: true
    +showSubscribedMagazines: true
    +showSubscribedDomains: true
    +preferredLanguages: []
    +featuredMagazines: null
    +showProfileSubscriptions: true
    +showProfileFollowings: true
    +markNewComments: false
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    +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
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    +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
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    +addMentionsPosts: true
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    +isDeleted: false
    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
    +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
    +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
    +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
    +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
    +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
    +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
    +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
    +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
    +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
    +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
    +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
    +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
    +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
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    -id: 7025
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    -totpSecret: null
    -totpBackupCodes: []
    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
    +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
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    +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
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    +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
    +apDomain: "midwest.social"
    +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
      date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +asLink: true
}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 20.0 MiB 0.38 ms
Input props 
[
  "subject" => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
        +avatar: null
        +cover: null
        +email: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "I am no longer here, and have moved to lemmy.world"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1723054061 {#21621
          date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: true
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21626 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21628 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21632 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21634 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21636 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21638 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21640 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21642 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21644 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21646 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21648 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21650 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21652 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21654 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21656 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21658 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21660 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21662 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21664 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21666 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21670 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21672 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21674 …}
        -id: 23754
        -password: "$2y$13$Hq1ZuLK3N.cqXHNe8Y87yON8Jx.0V0sqaZ4TUIr4LOsipU3HXq7Km"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21676 …}
        +apId: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemm.ee/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemm.ee"
        +apPreferredUsername: "HurlingDurling"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728840650 {#21622
          date: 2024-10-13 19:30:50.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
        +apTimeoutAt: null
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1689112242 {#21623
          date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
        +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "privacy"
        +description: """
          A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
          ============================================================\n
          \n
          Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
          \n
          In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
          \n
          ### Some Rules\n
          \n
          - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
          - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
          - Try to keep things on topic\n
          - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
          - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
          - Be nice :)\n
          \n
          ### Related communities\n
          \n
          - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
          - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
          \n
          ### Chat rooms\n
          \n
          - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
          - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
          \n
          much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 561
        +entryCommentCount: 7684
        +postCount: 6
        +postCommentCount: 73
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729582580 {#21532
          date: 2024-10-22 09:36:20.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21538 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21540 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21542 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21544 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21546 …}
        +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21548 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21550 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21552 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21554 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21556 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21558 …}
        -id: 85
        +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583592 {#21533
          date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699780272 {#21534
          date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
      +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
      +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
      +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
      +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
      +type: "video"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 15
      +favouriteCount: 73
      +score: 0
      +isAdult: false
      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702469336 {#2182
        date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2626 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2622 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058}
      ]
      -id: 21645
      -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
      -bodyTs: "'actual':61 'becom':43 'cabin':27 'current':10,58 'defeat':4 'differ':64 'doesn':69 'everyth':55 'feel':3,8,53,71 'ghost':45 'help':51 'honest':2 'imposs':13 'internet':33 'like':9,54,72 'make':62 'move':24 'offlin':48 'one':20 'onlin':18 'privat':17 'right':5,66 'someon':50 'stay':16,47 'stop':36 'tech':38 'togeth':40 'truli':15,42 'unless':19 'use':37 'will':22 'wood':30"
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1702344361
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/17599563"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
        date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
      \n
      The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
      \n
      If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 11
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
      date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +tags: null
    +mentions: [
      "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
    -id: 217418
    -bodyTs: "'-90':259 '80':258 'abl':21 'absolut':3 'accuraci':120,231 'action':65 'ad':224 'adblock':146 'almost':39 'alreadi':143 'also':198 'app':160,202 'aren':262 'assum':140 'avoid':32,181,199 'back':112 'bad':27 'biggest':156 'bound':242 'brows':154 'card':168 'case':134 'collect':37,79,162 'credit':167 'data':36,72,82,99,118,125,161,189,213,274 'dead':236 'dead-set':235 'degre':229 'easi':94 'edward':41 'essenti':107 'even':17,56,62 'explain':23 'feel':244,249 'footprint':275 'futur':10 'give':52 'given':221 'go':111 'good':250 'harder':269 'help':69 'helpless':245 'high':228 'imag':222 'in-person':175 'kind':50 'less':75,138,194 'level':43 'littl':74,253 'login':206 'long':216 'look':218 'lot':193 'make':70 'mani':85 'media':201 'much':81,268 'obsess':46 'onlin':170 'peopl':48,86,261 'perfect':239 'person':177 'phone':159 'plan':44 'portal':171 'possibl':8 'pretti':227 'profil':102 'purchas':164 're':20,78,142,234,241,266 'realli':89 'relev':122 'requir':208 'scrape':212 'set':237 'site':204 'sleepwalk':4 'small':64 'snowden':42 'social':200 'someon':25 'sour':128 'start':57 'step':254 'success':139,195 'take':40,68,256 'target':271 'tech':9 'thing':28,157 'tri':30 'truth':59 'type':34 'ubiquit':14 'use':133,144,187 'use-cas':132 'valuabl':76 'verifi':97 'via':169,272 'vpn':148 'way':95,109 'well':173 'worst':7 'would':38,197"
    +ranking: 0
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    +downVotes: 0
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5431108"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
      date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
    }
    +"title": 217418
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#22465
  +subject: App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
      +followersCount: 0
      +homepage: "front"
      +about: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +fields: null
      +oauthGithubId: null
      +oauthGoogleId: null
      +oauthFacebookId: null
      +oauthKeycloakId: null
      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPost: false
      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
      +addMentionsPosts: true
      +isBanned: false
      +isVerified: false
      +isDeleted: false
      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
      +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1794 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1931 …}
      +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2401 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1951 …}
      +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1924 …}
      -id: 7025
      -password: "$2y$13$f3GeuUyH1k3WkfboLUJIeehhQKeGa0b6FL6kGi8Q178zCKH.LAce."
      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
      +apDomain: "midwest.social"
      +apPreferredUsername: "archomrade"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: false
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729550284 {#272
        date: 2024-10-22 00:38:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
        date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
        +avatar: null
        +cover: null
        +email: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        +roles: []
        +followersCount: 0
        +homepage: "front"
        +about: "I am no longer here, and have moved to lemmy.world"
        +lastActive: DateTime @1723054061 {#21621
          date: 2024-08-07 20:07:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +fields: null
        +oauthGithubId: null
        +oauthGoogleId: null
        +oauthFacebookId: null
        +oauthKeycloakId: null
        +hideAdult: true
        +showSubscribedUsers: true
        +showSubscribedMagazines: true
        +showSubscribedDomains: true
        +preferredLanguages: []
        +featuredMagazines: null
        +showProfileSubscriptions: true
        +showProfileFollowings: true
        +markNewComments: false
        +notifyOnNewEntry: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
        +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
        +notifyOnNewPost: false
        +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
        +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
        +addMentionsEntries: false
        +addMentionsPosts: true
        +isBanned: false
        +isVerified: false
        +isDeleted: false
        +isBot: false
        +spamProtection: true
        +customCss: null
        +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21626 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21628 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21632 …}
        +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21634 …}
        +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21636 …}
        +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21638 …}
        +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21640 …}
        +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21642 …}
        +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21644 …}
        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21646 …}
        +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21648 …}
        +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21650 …}
        +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21652 …}
        +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21654 …}
        +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21656 …}
        +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21658 …}
        +blockedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21660 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21662 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21664 …}
        +violations: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21666 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21668 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21670 …}
        +subscribedCategories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21672 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21674 …}
        -id: 23754
        -password: "$2y$13$Hq1ZuLK3N.cqXHNe8Y87yON8Jx.0V0sqaZ4TUIr4LOsipU3HXq7Km"
        -totpSecret: null
        -totpBackupCodes: []
        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21676 …}
        +apId: "HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemm.ee/u/HurlingDurling"
        +apFollowersUrl: null
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemm.ee/inbox"
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        +privateKey: null
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        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728840650 {#21622
          date: 2024-10-13 19:30:50.0 +02:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1689112242 {#21623
          date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
        +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "privacy"
        +description: """
          A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
          ============================================================\n
          \n
          Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
          \n
          In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
          \n
          ### Some Rules\n
          \n
          - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
          - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
          - Try to keep things on topic\n
          - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
          - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
          - Be nice :)\n
          \n
          ### Related communities\n
          \n
          - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
          - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
          \n
          ### Chat rooms\n
          \n
          - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
          - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
          \n
          much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
          """
        +rules: null
        +subscriptionsCount: 1
        +entryCount: 561
        +entryCommentCount: 7684
        +postCount: 6
        +postCommentCount: 73
        +isAdult: false
        +customCss: null
        +lastActive: DateTime @1729582580 {#21532
          date: 2024-10-22 09:36:20.0 +02:00
        }
        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21538 …}
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        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21542 …}
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        +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21546 …}
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        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21554 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21556 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21558 …}
        -id: 85
        +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy/followers"
        +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
        +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
        +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
        +apDiscoverable: true
        +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
        +privateKey: null
        +publicKey: null
        +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1729583592 {#21533
          date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +apDeletedAt: null
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699780272 {#21534
          date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
      +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
      +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
      +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
      +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
      +type: "video"
      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: true
      +commentCount: 15
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      +sticky: false
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702469336 {#2182
        date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
      +tags: null
      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2626 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2622 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
      +children: [
        App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058}
      ]
      -id: 21645
      -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
      -bodyTs: "'actual':61 'becom':43 'cabin':27 'current':10,58 'defeat':4 'differ':64 'doesn':69 'everyth':55 'feel':3,8,53,71 'ghost':45 'help':51 'honest':2 'imposs':13 'internet':33 'like':9,54,72 'make':62 'move':24 'offlin':48 'one':20 'onlin':18 'privat':17 'right':5,66 'someon':50 'stay':16,47 'stop':36 'tech':38 'togeth':40 'truli':15,42 'unless':19 'use':37 'will':22 'wood':30"
      +cross: false
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +ranking: 1702344361
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      +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/17599563"
      +editedAt: null
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        date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
      }
      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
      \n
      The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
      \n
      If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 11
    +score: 0
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
      date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +mentions: [
      "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
    ]
    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
    -id: 217418
    -bodyTs: "'-90':259 '80':258 'abl':21 'absolut':3 'accuraci':120,231 'action':65 'ad':224 'adblock':146 'almost':39 'alreadi':143 'also':198 'app':160,202 'aren':262 'assum':140 'avoid':32,181,199 'back':112 'bad':27 'biggest':156 'bound':242 'brows':154 'card':168 'case':134 'collect':37,79,162 'credit':167 'data':36,72,82,99,118,125,161,189,213,274 'dead':236 'dead-set':235 'degre':229 'easi':94 'edward':41 'essenti':107 'even':17,56,62 'explain':23 'feel':244,249 'footprint':275 'futur':10 'give':52 'given':221 'go':111 'good':250 'harder':269 'help':69 'helpless':245 'high':228 'imag':222 'in-person':175 'kind':50 'less':75,138,194 'level':43 'littl':74,253 'login':206 'long':216 'look':218 'lot':193 'make':70 'mani':85 'media':201 'much':81,268 'obsess':46 'onlin':170 'peopl':48,86,261 'perfect':239 'person':177 'phone':159 'plan':44 'portal':171 'possibl':8 'pretti':227 'profil':102 'purchas':164 're':20,78,142,234,241,266 'realli':89 'relev':122 'requir':208 'scrape':212 'set':237 'site':204 'sleepwalk':4 'small':64 'snowden':42 'social':200 'someon':25 'sour':128 'start':57 'step':254 'success':139,195 'take':40,68,256 'target':271 'tech':9 'thing':28,157 'tri':30 'truth':59 'type':34 'ubiquit':14 'use':133,144,187 'use-cas':132 'valuabl':76 'verifi':97 'via':169,272 'vpn':148 'way':95,109 'well':173 'worst':7 'would':38,197"
    +ranking: 0
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      date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
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    +"title": 217418
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  +formDest: "entry_comment"
  +showDownvote: true
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 20.0 MiB 0.69 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1885 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
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      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
      +apId: "archomrade@midwest.social"
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      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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      +apDiscoverable: true
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      +privateKey: null
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
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    +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
        +avatar: null
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        +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
        +roles: []
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +customCss: null
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        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
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        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
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         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
        +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "privacy"
        +description: """
          A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
          ============================================================\n
          \n
          Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
          \n
          In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
          \n
          ### Some Rules\n
          \n
          - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
          - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
          - Try to keep things on topic\n
          - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
          - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
          - Be nice :)\n
          \n
          ### Related communities\n
          \n
          - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
          - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
          \n
          ### Chat rooms\n
          \n
          - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
          - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
          \n
          much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
          """
        +rules: null
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        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
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      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
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      -id: 21645
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    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
      \n
      The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
      \n
      If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
      """
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#22522
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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      +cover: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598
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        +username: "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21624 …}
        +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21626 …}
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        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21630 …}
        +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21632 …}
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        -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21676 …}
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        +privateKey: null
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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          date: 2023-07-11 23:50:42.0 +02:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#21535 …}
        +name: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +title: "privacy"
        +description: """
          A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.\n
          ============================================================\n
          \n
          Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.\n
          \n
          In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.\n
          \n
          ### Some Rules\n
          \n
          - Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post\n
          - Don’t promote proprietary software\n
          - Try to keep things on topic\n
          - If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered\n
          - Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience\n
          - Be nice :)\n
          \n
          ### Related communities\n
          \n
          - [Lemmy.ml libre_culture](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml privatelife](https://lemmy.ml/c/privatelife)\n
          - [Lemmy.ml DeGoogle](https://lemmy.ml/c/degoogle)\n
          - [Lemmy.ca privacy](https://lemmy.ca/c/privacy)\n
          \n
          ### Chat rooms\n
          \n
          - [Matrix/Element]Dead\n
          - [Discord](https://discord.gg/8xfrVjvngh)\n
          \n
          much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
          """
        +rules: null
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        +entryCount: 561
        +entryCommentCount: 7684
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        +postCommentCount: 73
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
        +tags: null
        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#21536 …}
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        -id: 85
        +apId: "privacy@lemmy.ml"
        +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
        +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/privacy"
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        +apPreferredUsername: "privacy"
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          date: 2024-10-22 09:53:12.0 +02:00
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        +apDeletedAt: null
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          date: 2023-11-12 10:11:12.0 +01:00
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
      +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
      +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
      +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
      +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
      +type: "video"
      +lang: "en"
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      +hasEmbed: true
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        date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
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      ]
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      +cross: false
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: null
    +root: null
    +body: """
      We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
      \n
      The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
      \n
      If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
      """
    +lang: "en"
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    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
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  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
}
entry App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent 20.0 MiB 10.33 ms
Input props 
[
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
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      +customCss: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
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      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
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      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2421 …}
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      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#22816 …}
      +name: "linux@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "linux"
      +description: """
        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
        \n
        Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).\n
        \n
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        \n
        ### Rules\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.\n
        - No misinformation\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        ### Related Communities\n
        \n
        - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        \n
        Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
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      +customCss: null
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:52:22.0 +02:00
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22817 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22819 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22821 …}
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
    +type: "article"
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    +hasEmbed: false
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    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1641 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1551 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
        +image: null
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        +body: """
          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2226 …}
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        -id: 343318
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        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706310212 {#2240
          date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 343318
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2247 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
        +body: """
          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
          "@d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2255 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2287 …}
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        -id: 343392
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729391389 {#1637
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      date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
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  }
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Attributes 
[
  "dateAsUrl" => true
]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\EntryComponent {#22773
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
  -newCommentMarkerCount: App\Kbin\NewCommentMarker\NewCommentMarkerCount {#3565 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -security: Symfony\Bundle\SecurityBundle\Security {#1101 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261
      +avatar: null
      +cover: null
      +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
      +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      +roles: []
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        date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +hideAdult: true
      +showSubscribedUsers: true
      +showSubscribedMagazines: true
      +showSubscribedDomains: true
      +preferredLanguages: []
      +featuredMagazines: null
      +showProfileSubscriptions: true
      +showProfileFollowings: true
      +markNewComments: false
      +notifyOnNewEntry: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryReply: false
      +notifyOnNewEntryCommentReply: false
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      +notifyOnNewPostReply: false
      +notifyOnNewPostCommentReply: false
      +addMentionsEntries: false
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      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
      +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
      +entryVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#163 …}
      +entryComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#136 …}
      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#79 …}
      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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      -totpSecret: null
      -totpBackupCodes: []
      -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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      +apProfileId: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://midwest.social/u/archomrade"
      +apFollowersUrl: null
      +apInboxUrl: "https://midwest.social/inbox"
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    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#22816 …}
      +name: "linux@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "linux"
      +description: """
        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
        \n
        Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).\n
        \n
        Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word “Linux” in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.\n
        \n
        ### Rules\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.\n
        - No misinformation\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        ### Related Communities\n
        \n
        - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        \n
        Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
        """
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       …2
    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +body: """
          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
        +body: """
          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
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      date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
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  }
  +isSingle: false
  +showShortSentence: true
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}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 20.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
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    +avatar: null
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    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
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    +customCss: null
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    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#22896
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    +avatar: null
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    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
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}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 20.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
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    date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#22951
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1706308065 {#1643
    date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 20.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "createdAt" => DateTimeImmutable @1706308065 {#1643
    date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
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    date: 2024-10-20 04:29:49.0 +02:00
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#23005
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706308065 {#1643
    date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729391389 {#1637
    date: 2024-10-20 04:29:49.0 +02:00
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}
magazine_inline App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent 20.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#22816 …}
    +name: "linux@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "linux"
    +description: """
      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
      \n
      Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).\n
      \n
      Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word “Linux” in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.\n
      \n
      ### Rules\n
      \n
      - Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.\n
      - No misinformation\n
      - No NSFW content\n
      - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
      \n
      ### Related Communities\n
      \n
      - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
      - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
      - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
      - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
      \n
      Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
      """
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  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\MagazineInlineComponent {#23059
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    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#22816 …}
    +name: "linux@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "linux"
    +description: """
      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
      \n
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      \n
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      \n
      ### Rules\n
      \n
      - Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.\n
      - No misinformation\n
      - No NSFW content\n
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      \n
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      \n
      - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
      - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
      - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
      - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
      \n
      Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
      """
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  +showTitle: true
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  +stretchedLink: false
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}
vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 20.0 MiB 0.38 ms
Input props 
[
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      +title: "linux"
      +description: """
        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
        \n
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        \n
        ### Rules\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.\n
        - No misinformation\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        ### Related Communities\n
        \n
        - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        \n
        Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
        """
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
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    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: false
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    +ip: null
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1551 …}
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
        +image: null
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        +body: """
          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
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          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
        +image: null
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        +body: """
          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2039 …}
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#23115
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      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +isBot: false
      +spamProtection: true
      +customCss: null
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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        Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
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    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
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        +body: """
          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
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        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
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        +body: """
          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
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}
boost App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent 20.0 MiB 0.73 ms
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        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
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        \n
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        - No misinformation\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
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        \n
        - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
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        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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        Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
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      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
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      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
        +image: null
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          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
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        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
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          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
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]
Attributes 
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Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#23172
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      +description: """
        From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
        \n
        Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).\n
        \n
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        \n
        ### Rules\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.\n
        - No misinformation\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        ### Related Communities\n
        \n
        - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        \n
        Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
        """
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      +__isInitialized__: true
       …2
    }
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
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    +ip: null
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    +children: [
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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        +body: """
          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
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          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
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          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
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        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
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        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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            Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
            \n
            I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
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            Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
            """
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      > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
      \n
      My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
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      The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
      """
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App\Twig\Components\EntryCommentComponent {#23423
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          From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
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          - No misinformation\n
          - No NSFW content\n
          - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
          \n
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          \n
          - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
          - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
          - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
          \n
          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
          """
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          date: 2023-11-02 13:51:08.0 +01:00
        }
        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
      +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
        \n
        Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
        \n
        - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
        - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
        - there are no other processes running\n
        \n
        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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      +ip: null
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1641 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1665 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1676 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1551 …}
      +children: [
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236}
        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
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          +body: """
            Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
            \n
            I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
            \n
            Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
            """
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            "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
            "@d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz"
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    }
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
    +image: null
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    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
    +body: """
      > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
      \n
      My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
      \n
      The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
      """
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      "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
      "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
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    +"title": 343318
  }
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  +level: 1
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  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 20.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
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    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
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    +customCss: null
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    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#191 …}
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    +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
    +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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    -oAuth2UserConsents: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1896 …}
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      date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
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  "showAvatar" => false
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#23468
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    +avatar: null
    +cover: null
    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    +roles: []
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    +markedForDeletionAt: null
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    +customCss: null
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    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
    +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
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}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 20.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
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    date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#23524
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1706310212 {#2240
    date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
  }
}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 20.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
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    date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
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    date: 2024-10-14 02:03:48.0 +02:00
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#23578
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706310212 {#2240
    date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1728864228 {#2239
    date: 2024-10-14 02:03:48.0 +02:00
  }
}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 20.0 MiB 0.16 ms
Input props 
[
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    +avatar: null
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    +email: "archomrade@midwest.social"
    +username: "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1729393030 {#269
      date: 2024-10-20 04:57:10.0 +02:00
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    +markedForDeletionAt: null
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    +isBot: false
    +spamProtection: true
    +customCss: null
    +ignoreMagazinesCustomCss: false
    +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
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  "width" => 40
  "height" => 40
  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#23632
  +width: 40
  +height: 40
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261
    +avatar: null
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vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 20.0 MiB 0.38 ms
Input props 
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          \n
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          ### Related Communities\n
          \n
          - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
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          - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
          - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
          \n
          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
          """
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        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
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        Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
        \n
        - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
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        \n
        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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            Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
            \n
            I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
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            Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
            """
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    +body: """
      > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
      \n
      My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
      \n
      The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
      """
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#23724
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        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
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            Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
            \n
            I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
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            Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
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      > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
      \n
      My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
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      The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
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        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
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            Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
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            I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
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            Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
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      > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
      \n
      My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
      \n
      The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
      """
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          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
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      +body: """
        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
        \n
        Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
        \n
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        - there are no other processes running\n
        \n
        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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            Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
            \n
            I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
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            Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
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      > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
      \n
      My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
      \n
      The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
      """
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Input props 
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          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
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        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
        \n
        Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
        \n
        - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
        - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
        - there are no other processes running\n
        \n
        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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            > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
            \n
            My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
            \n
            The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
            """
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      Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
      \n
      I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
      \n
      Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
      """
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          - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
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          \n
          - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
          - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
          - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
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          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
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      +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
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      +body: """
        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
        \n
        Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
        \n
        - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
        - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
        - there are no other processes running\n
        \n
        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1641 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1551 …}
      +children: [
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +body: """
            > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
            \n
            My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
            \n
            The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
            """
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            "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
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    +image: null
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    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
    +body: """
      Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
      \n
      I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
      \n
      Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
      """
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  +dateAsUrl: true
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -authorizationChecker: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\AuthorizationChecker {#931 …}
}
user_inline App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent 22.0 MiB 3.10 ms
Input props 
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]
Attributes 
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Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserInlineComponent {#24077
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date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 22.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#24133
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}
date_edited App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent 22.0 MiB 0.09 ms
Input props 
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateEditedComponent {#24187
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}
user_avatar App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent 22.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
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  "width" => 40
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  "asLink" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserAvatarComponent {#24241
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vote App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent 22.0 MiB 0.44 ms
Input props 
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          \n
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          \n
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          \n
          ### Related Communities\n
          \n
          - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
          - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
          - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
          \n
          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
          """
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      +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
      +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
        \n
        Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
        \n
        - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
        - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
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        \n
        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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            > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
            \n
            My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
            \n
            The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
            """
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      Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
      \n
      I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
      \n
      Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
      """
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]
Attributes 
[]
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App\Twig\Components\VoteComponent {#24318
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        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#22816 …}
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        +title: "linux"
        +description: """
          From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
          \n
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          - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
          - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
          \n
          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
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        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
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        - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
        - there are no other processes running\n
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        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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            > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
            \n
            My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
            \n
            The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
            """
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      Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
      \n
      I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
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      Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
      """
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          \n
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          - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
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          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
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        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
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            > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
            \n
            My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
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            The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
            """
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243}
      ]
      -id: 33332
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
    +image: null
    +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2247 …}
    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
    +body: """
      Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
      \n
      I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
      \n
      Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
      """
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      "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
      "@d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz"
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    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2255 …}
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    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2285 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2287 …}
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]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\BoostComponent {#24375
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      +moderatorTokens: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#248 …}
      +magazineOwnershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#244 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#233 …}
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      +entryCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#106 …}
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      +postVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#94 …}
      +postComments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1793 …}
      +postCommentVotes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1847 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2478 …}
      +subscribedDomains: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1871 …}
      +follows: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1605 …}
      +followers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1770 …}
      +blocks: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1844 …}
      +blockers: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1827 …}
      +blockedMagazines: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2415 …}
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    }
    +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656
        +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#22816 …}
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        +title: "linux"
        +description: """
          From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia\n
          \n
          Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).\n
          \n
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          \n
          ### Rules\n
          \n
          - Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.\n
          - No misinformation\n
          - No NSFW content\n
          - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
          \n
          ### Related Communities\n
          \n
          - [!opensource@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/opensource)\n
          - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
          - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
          - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
          \n
          Community icon by [Alpár-Etele Méder](https://www.iconfinder.com/pocike), licensed under [CC BY 3.0](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/)
          """
        +rules: null
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        +markedForDeletionAt: null
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        +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22817 …}
        +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22819 …}
        +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22821 …}
        +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22823 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22831 …}
        +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22833 …}
        +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22835 …}
        +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22837 …}
        +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#22839 …}
        -id: 73
        +apId: "linux@lemmy.ml"
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        +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/linux/followers"
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        +__isInitialized__: true
         …2
      }
      +image: null
      +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
      +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
      +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
      +url: null
      +body: """
        I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
        \n
        Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
        \n
        - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
        - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
        - there are no other processes running\n
        \n
        What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
        """
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      +lang: "en"
      +isOc: false
      +hasEmbed: false
      +commentCount: 12
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      +ip: null
      +adaAmount: 0
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      +mentions: null
      +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1641 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1665 …}
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      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1551 …}
      +children: [
        1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
          +user: App\Entity\User {#261}
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          +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
          +image: null
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          +body: """
            > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
            \n
            My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
            \n
            The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
            """
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            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
            "@archomrade@midwest.social"
            "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
          ]
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        0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243}
      ]
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …2}
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    +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
    +body: """
      Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
      \n
      I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
      \n
      Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
      """
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      "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
      "@d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz"
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    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2287 …}
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}
settings_row_enum App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowEnumComponent 22.0 MiB 0.20 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Sidebar position"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_GENERAL_SIDEBAR_POSITION"
  "values" => [
    [
      "name" => "Left"
      "value" => "LEFT"
    ]
    [
      "name" => "Right"
      "value" => "RIGHT"
    ]
  ]
  "defaultValue" => "RIGHT"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowEnumComponent {#24771
  +label: "Sidebar position"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_SIDEBAR_POSITION"
  +values: [
    [
      "name" => "Left"
      "value" => "LEFT"
    ]
    [
      "name" => "Right"
      "value" => "RIGHT"
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  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.17 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Dynamic lists"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_GENERAL_DYNAMIC_LISTS"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#24843
  +label: "Dynamic lists"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_DYNAMIC_LISTS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Rounded edges"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_GENERAL_ROUNDED_EDGES"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#24906
  +label: "Rounded edges"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_ROUNDED_EDGES"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Infinite scrolling"
  "help" => "Automatically load more content when you reach the bottom of the page."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_GENERAL_INFINITE_SCROLL"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#24962
  +label: "Infinite scrolling"
  +help: "Automatically load more content when you reach the bottom of the page."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_INFINITE_SCROLL"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Sticky navbar"
  "help" => "The navbar will stick to the top of the page when you scroll down."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_GENERAL_FIXED_NAVBAR"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25021
  +label: "Sticky navbar"
  +help: "The navbar will stick to the top of the page when you scroll down."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_FIXED_NAVBAR"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show top bar"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_GENERAL_TOPBAR"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25077
  +label: "Show top bar"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_TOPBAR"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Turbo mode (experimental)"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_GENERAL_TURBO"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25133
  +label: "Turbo mode (experimental)"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_TURBO"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
user_settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.21 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Mark new comments"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_MARK_NEW_COMMENTS"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25191
  +label: "Mark new comments"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_MARK_NEW_COMMENTS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.15 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show "Support Us" block"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_GENERAL_SUPPORT_US_BLOCK"
  "defaultValue" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25254
  +label: "Show "Support Us" block"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_GENERAL_SUPPORT_US_BLOCK"
  +defaultValue: true
  +reloadRequired: true
}
user_settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.20 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show subscribed users"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_USERS"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25312
  +label: "Show subscribed users"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_USERS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
user_settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.16 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show subscribed magazines"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_MAGAZINES"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25368
  +label: "Show subscribed magazines"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_MAGAZINES"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
user_settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show subscribed domains"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_DOMAINS"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\UserSettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25424
  +label: "Show subscribed domains"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_SUB_CHANNEL_DOMAINS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Auto media preview"
  "help" => "Automatically expand media previews."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_PREVIEW"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25480
  +label: "Auto media preview"
  +help: "Automatically expand media previews."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_PREVIEW"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Compact view"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_COMPACT"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25536
  +label: "Compact view"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_COMPACT"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show users’ avatars"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_USERS_AVATARS"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25592
  +label: "Show users’ avatars"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_USERS_AVATARS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.16 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show magazines’ icons"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_MAGAZINES_ICONS"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25648
  +label: "Show magazines’ icons"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_MAGAZINES_ICONS"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show thumbnails"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_THUMBNAILS"
  "defaultValue" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25704
  +label: "Show thumbnails"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_ENTRIES_SHOW_THUMBNAILS"
  +defaultValue: true
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.14 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Auto media preview"
  "help" => "Automatically expand media previews."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_POSTS_SHOW_PREVIEW"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25760
  +label: "Auto media preview"
  +help: "Automatically expand media previews."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_POSTS_SHOW_PREVIEW"
  +defaultValue: false
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show users’ avatars"
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_POSTS_SHOW_USERS_AVATARS"
  "defaultValue" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25816
  +label: "Show users’ avatars"
  +help: ""
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_POSTS_SHOW_USERS_AVATARS"
  +defaultValue: true
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_enum App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowEnumComponent 22.0 MiB 0.16 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Comment reply position"
  "help" => "Display the comment reply form either at the top or bottom of the page. When 'infinite scroll' is enabled the position will always appear at the top."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_COMMENTS_REPLY_POSITION"
  "values" => [
    [
      "name" => "top"
      "value" => "TOP"
    ]
    [
      "name" => "bottom"
      "value" => "BOTTOM"
    ]
  ]
  "defaultValue" => "TOP"
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowEnumComponent {#25872
  +label: "Comment reply position"
  +help: "Display the comment reply form either at the top or bottom of the page. When 'infinite scroll' is enabled the position will always appear at the top."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_COMMENTS_REPLY_POSITION"
  +values: [
    [
      "name" => "top"
      "value" => "TOP"
    ]
    [
      "name" => "bottom"
      "value" => "BOTTOM"
    ]
  ]
  +defaultValue: "TOP"
  +reloadRequired: true
}
settings_row_switch App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent 22.0 MiB 0.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "label" => "Show Comment Avatars"
  "help" => "Display/hide user avatars when viewing comments on a single thread or post."
  "settingsKey" => "KBIN_COMMENTS_SHOW_USER_AVATAR"
  "defaultValue" => true
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SettingsRowSwitchComponent {#25930
  +label: "Show Comment Avatars"
  +help: "Display/hide user avatars when viewing comments on a single thread or post."
  +settingsKey: "KBIN_COMMENTS_SHOW_USER_AVATAR"
  +defaultValue: true
  +reloadRequired: true
}
date App\Twig\Components\DateComponent 22.0 MiB 0.13 ms
Input props 
[
  "date" => DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
    date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
  }
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\DateComponent {#26003
  +date: DateTimeImmutable @1687452116 {#275
    date: 2023-06-22 18:41:56.0 +02:00
  }
}
related_magazines App\Twig\Components\RelatedMagazinesComponent 22.0 MiB 2.12 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => null
  "tag" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\RelatedMagazinesComponent {#26090
  +limit: 4
  +tag: null
  +magazine: null
  +type: "random"
  +title: "random_magazines"
  +refreshedRandom: false
  -repository: App\Repository\MagazineRepository {#2438 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
}
active_users App\Twig\Components\ActiveUsersComponent 22.0 MiB 0.22 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\ActiveUsersComponent {#26155
  +magazine: null
  -userRepository: App\Repository\UserRepository {#603 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
}
related_categories App\Twig\Components\RelatedCategoriesComponent 22.0 MiB 1.31 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => null
  "tag" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\RelatedCategoriesComponent {#26214
  +limit: 4
  +tag: null
  +magazine: null
  +type: "random"
  +title: "random_categories"
  +refreshedRandom: false
  -repository: App\Repository\CategoryRepository {#26215 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
}
related_posts App\Twig\Components\RelatedPostsComponent 22.0 MiB 1.49 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => null
  "tag" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\RelatedPostsComponent {#26284
  +limit: 4
  +tag: null
  +magazine: null
  +type: "random"
  +post: null
  +title: "random_posts"
  +refreshedRandom: false
  -repository: App\Repository\PostRepository {#1466 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -mentionManager: App\Service\MentionManager {#1539 …}
}
related_entries App\Twig\Components\RelatedEntriesComponent 22.0 MiB 1.32 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => null
  "tag" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\RelatedEntriesComponent {#26353
  +limit: 4
  +tag: null
  +magazine: null
  +type: "random"
  +entry: null
  +title: "random_entries"
  +refreshedRandom: false
  -repository: App\Repository\EntryRepository {#1772 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -mentionManager: App\Service\MentionManager {#1539 …}
}
support_us_block App\Twig\Components\SupportUsBlock 22.0 MiB 0.23 ms
Input props 
[]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\SupportUsBlock {#26422
  +subject: ? App\Entity\Contracts\VotableInterface
  +url: ? string
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -cache: Symfony\Component\Cache\Adapter\TraceableTagAwareAdapter {#600 …}
  -requestStack: Symfony\Component\HttpFoundation\RequestStack {#1328 …}
  -partnerBlockRepository: App\Repository\PartnerBlockRepository {#26423 …}
}
featured_magazines App\Twig\Components\FeaturedMagazinesComponent 22.0 MiB 0.82 ms
Input props 
[
  "magazine" => null
]
Attributes 
[]
Component 
App\Twig\Components\FeaturedMagazinesComponent {#26515
  +magazine: null
  -twig: Twig\Environment {#1252 …}
  -repository: App\Repository\MagazineRepository {#2438 …}
}