GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/index.php/u/@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me/commented/2023-11-19::2023-11-19

Response
200 OK
IP
216.73.216.122
Profiled on
Token
22dac4

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 12.16 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.08 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2267 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
  +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
  +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
    \n
    This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
    \n
    Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
    \n
    ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
    \n
    - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
    - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
    - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
    - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
    \n
    …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
    \n
    In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
    \n
    As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
    \n
    Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
    \n
    And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
    \n
    As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
    \n
    Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
    - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
    - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
    - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
    \n
    Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
    - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
    \n
    Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
    - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
    - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
    \n
    Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
    \n
    DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
    \n
    Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
    \n
    As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
    - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
    - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
    \n
    Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
    - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
    - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
    - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
    - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
    - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
    - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
    - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
    - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
    \n
    And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 206
  +favouriteCount: 419
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1708204610 {#2211
    date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2273 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2239 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2236 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2226 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2238 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1701 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1683 …}
      +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700349770 {#1559
        date: 2023-11-19 00:22:50.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@weketi6945@sh.itjust.works"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1711 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1628 …}
      -id: 138377
      -bodyTs: "'call':5 'close':27 'get':35 'includ':3 'made':17 'maintain':21 'peopl':2 'protocol':16 'subset':12 'successor':31 'wayland':6,9 'x11':20,30 'x12':7,15"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202789"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700678383 {#1689
        date: 2023-11-22 19:39:43.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700349770 {#1686
        date: 2023-11-19 00:22:50.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138377
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
      +body: """
        It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
        \n
        English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 7
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700348785 {#1612
        date: 2023-11-19 00:06:25.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1579 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1589 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1555 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1557 …}
      -id: 138325
      -bodyTs: "'broken':6 'english':4,15,22,23 'feel':2 'fine':18 'friend':9,21,29 'german':12,26 'know':11 'like':3 'softwar':31 'teach':19 'wayland':25 'work':16 'x11':28"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202777"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700681954 {#1639
        date: 2023-11-22 20:39:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700348785 {#1752
        date: 2023-11-19 00:06:25.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138325
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
      +body: """
        > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
        \n
        … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
        \n
        > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
        \n
        Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 2
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700405297 {#1729
        date: 2023-11-19 15:48:17.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
        "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1740 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2465 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
      -id: 139935
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2267 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
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  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
  +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
  +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
    \n
    This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
    \n
    Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
    \n
    ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
    \n
    - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
    - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
    - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
    - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
    \n
    …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
    \n
    In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
    \n
    As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
    \n
    Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
    \n
    And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
    \n
    As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
    \n
    Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
    - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
    - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
    - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
    \n
    Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
    - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
    \n
    Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
    - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
    - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
    \n
    Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
    \n
    DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
    \n
    Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
    \n
    As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
    - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
    - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
    \n
    Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
    - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
    - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
    - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
    - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
    - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
    - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
    - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
    - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
    \n
    And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
    """
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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      +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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      +body: """
        It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
        \n
        English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
        """
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      +body: """
        > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
        \n
        … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
        \n
        > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
        \n
        Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
        """
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4 DENIED moderate 
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  +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
  +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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  +body: """
    Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
    \n
    This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
    \n
    Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
    \n
    ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
    \n
    - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
    - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
    - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
    - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
    \n
    …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
    \n
    In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
    \n
    As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
    \n
    Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
    \n
    And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
    \n
    As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
    \n
    Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
    - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
    - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
    - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
    - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
    \n
    Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
    - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
    \n
    Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
    - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
    - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
    \n
    Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
    \n
    DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
    \n
    Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
    \n
    As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
    - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
    - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
    \n
    Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
    \n
    - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
    - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
    - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
    - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
    - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
    - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
    - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
    - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
    - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
    - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
    - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
    \n
    And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
    """
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      +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700678383 {#1689
        date: 2023-11-22 19:39:43.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-11-19 00:22:50.0 +01:00
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666
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      +body: """
        It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
        \n
        English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-22 20:39:14.0 +01:00
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      +body: """
        > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
        \n
        … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
        \n
        > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
        \n
        Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
        """
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        date: 2023-11-19 15:48:17.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 139935
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  -id: 13812
  -titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
  -bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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          It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
          \n
          English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
          """
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          > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
          \n
          … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
          \n
          > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
          \n
          Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
          """
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  +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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7 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1680
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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      date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
          \n
          English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
          """
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700681954 {#1639
          date: 2023-11-22 20:39:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700348785 {#1752
          date: 2023-11-19 00:06:25.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
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        +body: """
          > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
          \n
          … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
          \n
          > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
          \n
          Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
          """
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
        +body: """
          It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
          \n
          English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        ]
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          date: 2023-11-22 20:39:14.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:06:25.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138325
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
        +body: """
          > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
          \n
          … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
          \n
          > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
          \n
          Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
          """
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
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        -id: 139935
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          date: 2023-11-23 18:21:48.0 +01:00
        }
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    ]
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    -bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 'consid':752,1068 'control':862 'convinc':33 'cooler':1517 'correct':366,783,1163,1920,2012 'couldn':642 'cours':1317,1655,1827 'crash':102 'cross':1136 'cruft':249 'current':599,1375 'd':1334 'de':299,306 'debian':436,575 'decid':387 'decor':1204 'default':433 'defenc':413 'deni':1065 'depend':1280 'des':1380,1403 'describ':1295 'design':100,920 'desktop':625,1968 'dev':416,1441,1491 'develop':144,259,591 'differ':278 'difficulti':1264 'disabl':1752 'discuss':1267 'doc':1592 'doesn':301,312,702,845,956,1649 'driver':1027,1071 'drm':1902 'drop':766,1456 'drop-in':1455 'dwl':1451 'dwm':1445 'edit':1102,1177,1577,1680 'effici':235 'effort':73 'either':393,1416 'els':963,1887 'enforc':587 'enlighten':1410 'enough':399,427,1770 'especi':851 'even':434,1383,1413 'everi':709 'evid':2017 'evidenc':1510 'exist':708,1513 'face':681 'fact':1343,1580 'fade':1549 'fair':1983 'fallback':827 'familiar':1907,1933 'fan':27 'far':965 'featur':318,331,1402 'fedora':762 'file':1969 'fit':177,1809 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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2088
      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1701 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1683 …}
  +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-11-19 00:22:50.0 +01:00
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  +ip: null
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  +mentions: [
    "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
    "@weketi6945@sh.itjust.works"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
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  -id: 138377
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  +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202789"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700678383 {#1689
    date: 2023-11-22 19:39:43.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700349770 {#1686
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  +"title": 138377
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
9 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
10 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2267 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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          > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
          \n
          … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
          \n
          > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
          \n
          Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
          """
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  +body: """
    It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
    \n
    English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
    """
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11 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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        -id: 138377
        -bodyTs: "'call':5 'close':27 'get':35 'includ':3 'made':17 'maintain':21 'peopl':2 'protocol':16 'subset':12 'successor':31 'wayland':6,9 'x11':20,30 'x12':7,15"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202789"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700678383 {#1689
          date: 2023-11-22 19:39:43.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700349770 {#1686
          date: 2023-11-19 00:22:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138377
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
        +body: """
          > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
          \n
          … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
          \n
          > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
          \n
          Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 15:48:17.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
          "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
        -id: 139935
        -bodyTs: "'16':254 'abandonwar':105 'adopt':135,148,155,240 'and/or':53 'anyth':31 'back':35,182 'better':127 'black':49 'broken':102 'chang':76 'come':131 'compat':197 'compositor':28 'connect':63 'consequ':251 'correct':18 'cours':85 'crash':48,69 'critic':237 'desktop':25,258 'didn':184 'display':64,78,88 'drag':144 'driver':23 'drop':242 'due':192,211,226 'either':45,93 'entir':47 'environ':26 'even':32 'everyth':2,70 'featur':162 'feet':146 'find':16 'fine':4,160 'flicker':55 'forc':74,134,152,235 'forgot':58 'game':199,206 'get':30 'glitch':52 'got':10 'graphic':51 'greet':43 'happen':119 'honor':12 'ideal':231 'ignor':253 'innov':260 'isn':170 'left':68,81 'let':117,245 'linux':208,257 'll':130 'lord':109 'lot':176 'make':138 'mass':238 'match':19 'mess':103 'natur':120 'never':91 'nobodi':151 'nvidia':22,37 'os/2':191,194 'packag':61 'part':210 'peopl':114,139 'pin':60 'port':186,204,220 'pretend':97 'problem':179 'protocol':259 'proton':214 'publish':200 'push':113 'readi':125 'remot':33 'resent':140 'right':66,83 'savior':111 'screen':50,54 'setup':79 'sleep':90 'softwar':142,180,189,215,223,246 'solut':232 'solv':174 'specif':21 'steam':213 'stop':112 'suffer':248 'support':39 'today':201,217 'toward':115 'tri':14,132 'usabl':34 'vendor':143,181,216,247 'version':24,62 'video':198 'wake':86 'wayland':99,116,149,156,158,167,169,225,241 'window':188,196 'work':3,92,159,165 'x11':161,172,222 'xorg':6,40,106 'xwayland':173,228,243 'year':255"
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700760108 {#1724
          date: 2023-11-23 18:21:48.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700405297 {#1719
          date: 2023-11-19 15:48:17.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 139935
      }
    ]
    -id: 13812
    -titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
    -bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 'consid':752,1068 'control':862 'convinc':33 'cooler':1517 'correct':366,783,1163,1920,2012 'couldn':642 'cours':1317,1655,1827 'crash':102 'cross':1136 'cruft':249 'current':599,1375 'd':1334 'de':299,306 'debian':436,575 'decid':387 'decor':1204 'default':433 'defenc':413 'deni':1065 'depend':1280 'des':1380,1403 'describ':1295 'design':100,920 'desktop':625,1968 'dev':416,1441,1491 'develop':144,259,591 'differ':278 'difficulti':1264 'disabl':1752 'discuss':1267 'doc':1592 'doesn':301,312,702,845,956,1649 'driver':1027,1071 'drm':1902 'drop':766,1456 'drop-in':1455 'dwl':1451 'dwm':1445 'edit':1102,1177,1577,1680 'effici':235 'effort':73 'either':393,1416 'els':963,1887 'enforc':587 'enlighten':1410 'enough':399,427,1770 'especi':851 'even':434,1383,1413 'everi':709 'evid':2017 'evidenc':1510 'exist':708,1513 'face':681 'fact':1343,1580 'fade':1549 'fair':1983 'fallback':827 'familiar':1907,1933 'fan':27 'far':965 'featur':318,331,1402 'fedora':762 'file':1969 'fit':177,1809 'fix':781,1101,1260,1274 'follow':368,1265 'forese':1175 'freebsd':26,68,1188 'full':18 'function':1366 'futur':1176 'game':1745 'gamer':1759 'gammastep':897 'gave':481 'get':12,910,1008,1765 'gist.github.com':4,7 'gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':6 'github.com':1604 'github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1603 'given':1388 'global':729,743,900,911 'gnome':286,543,615,651,726,733,1219,1404 'go':89 'got':1991 'graphic':472 'great':800 'guess':1161,1335,1629 'gui':1126 'guy':22 'happen':342,1670,1674 'hardwar':1004,1053,1123 'heard':710,1019,1078,1209 'hire':1439 'home':1930 'hope':1772 'hotkey':901,912 'howev':329,813 'hyprland':509,906,926 'i3':1452 'icewm':1539 'icon':1953 'ignor':1578 'implement':167,214,221,317,336,935,961,1362 'improv':1082 'in-hom':1928 'incred':757 'instert':1358 'integr':227 'intel':1052,1070,1086,1105,1122 'intend':1384 'introduc':987 'irrespons':398 'isn':48 'issu':181,554,597,655,724,777,1022,1118,1238,1713,1910 'jitsi':531 'jwm':1536 'kanshi':1353 'kde':350,728,736,763,1405 'keep':37,1006 'key':942 'keylogg':146 'keystrok':141 'know':669,741,968,1340,1564,1998 'knowledg':1730,1985,2004 'known':353 'kwin':360 'labwc':1467 'lack':1729 'last':654 'late':980 'lead':320 'lean':324 'leas':1903 'let':87,211,1996 'librari':86 'like':135,291,858,896,1167,1286,1348,1365,1548,1696 'limit':586,1984,2007 'link':1,550,1237,1583,1589,1602,1611,1705 'linux':60,82,1151,1601 'linux-specif':81 'littl':739 'll':1570 'look':1795 'lot':71,131 'm':448,462,787,1038,1056,1160,1325,1628,1747,1756,1804,1850 'made':283,695,1083 'main':1213 'make':45,143,253,421 'manag':106,120,197,231,1291,1310,1431,1891 'mani':172,438,452,1080,1081 'mark':1597,1619 'massiv':25 'mate':1406 'mayb':1848 'mean':240,704 'measur':924 'mention':1249,1532 'menus':730,744 'mess':184 'might':1192,1472 'mind':62 'minor':1377 'misrememb':1852 'miss':1480 'mode':832 'much':248 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'qt':798 'qtile':1432 'quit':491,520,2006 'quot':809,870,1370 'raising/activating':1234 'randr':294,1351 're':1294,1665,1794 'read':556,626 'readi':349 'realis':401 'realli':262 'reason':51,1095,1833 'recent':1412 'record':364,370,512 'redshift':837,872,894 'releas':992,1622 'remain':1171 'rememb':713,1835 'replac':1458,1801 'requir':468,1357,1397 'rescuetim':1277,1279 'resolv':1245,1716 'respons':1976 'restrict':607,633 'rhat':1906 'robertson':506 'root':1131 'rumour':1042 'run':110,222,829,1129 'safe':773 'said':1493,1639,1962 'screen':363,369,524 'screensav':1856 'screenshar':609 'secur':923 'see':139,176,833,1721,2002 'seem':539,958,1114,1156,1181,1242,1520,1706,1859,1945,1956 'server':118,1202 'set':158,1866 'setter':867 'shame':1488 'share':525 'sheer':1390 'ship':795,802,820 'show':530 'side':1087,1203 'simultan':223 'sinc':877 'sire':463 'skip':1558 'skiptaskbar':1595 'small':1543 'smaller':479 'softwar':327,676 'solut':328,346,937,1146 'solv':807,953,1621,1633 'someon':1499 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'writer':662,1141 'wrong':788,1679,1993 'x':1823 'x11':689,1283,1300,1313,1645,1726 'x11-only':1282,1299 'xcb':823 'xclip':1636,1642,1695 'xdm':1538 'xdotool':1786 'xfce':974,983,1407 'xkill':1816 'xmonad':1436 'xorg':40,188,767,844,1364,1552,1672,1783 'xorg-lik':1363 'xprop':1287 'xrandr':1345 'xwayland':831,1845 'ydotool':712,1791,1808 'yeah':1857,1943,1954 'year':190,411,439 'yes':112,153,199,691,1367,1788,1818 'yet':1014,1179 'zoom':537,553,590,601,638"
    +cross: false
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    +apId: "https://feddit.uk/post/4608014"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2043
      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2088
      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
  +body: """
    It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
    \n
    English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 7
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    date: 2023-11-19 00:06:25.0 +01:00
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  +mentions: [
    "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
    "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1579 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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  -id: 138325
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    date: 2023-11-22 20:39:14.0 +01:00
  }
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  +"title": 138325
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2267 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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          > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
          \n
          … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
          \n
          > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
          \n
          Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
          """
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  +body: """
    It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
    \n
    English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202789"
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          date: 2023-11-22 19:39:43.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700349770 {#1686
          date: 2023-11-19 00:22:50.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138377
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1666
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
        +body: """
          It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
          \n
          English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 7
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:06:25.0 +01:00
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          "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
          "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
        ]
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        -id: 138325
        -bodyTs: "'broken':6 'english':4,15,22,23 'feel':2 'fine':18 'friend':9,21,29 'german':12,26 'know':11 'like':3 'softwar':31 'teach':19 'wayland':25 'work':16 'x11':28"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202777"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700681954 {#1639
          date: 2023-11-22 20:39:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700348785 {#1752
          date: 2023-11-19 00:06:25.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138325
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715}
    ]
    -id: 13812
    -titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
    -bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 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'fix':781,1101,1260,1274 'follow':368,1265 'forese':1175 'freebsd':26,68,1188 'full':18 'function':1366 'futur':1176 'game':1745 'gamer':1759 'gammastep':897 'gave':481 'get':12,910,1008,1765 'gist.github.com':4,7 'gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':6 'github.com':1604 'github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1603 'given':1388 'global':729,743,900,911 'gnome':286,543,615,651,726,733,1219,1404 'go':89 'got':1991 'graphic':472 'great':800 'guess':1161,1335,1629 'gui':1126 'guy':22 'happen':342,1670,1674 'hardwar':1004,1053,1123 'heard':710,1019,1078,1209 'hire':1439 'home':1930 'hope':1772 'hotkey':901,912 'howev':329,813 'hyprland':509,906,926 'i3':1452 'icewm':1539 'icon':1953 'ignor':1578 'implement':167,214,221,317,336,935,961,1362 'improv':1082 'in-hom':1928 'incred':757 'instert':1358 'integr':227 'intel':1052,1070,1086,1105,1122 'intend':1384 'introduc':987 'irrespons':398 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'writer':662,1141 'wrong':788,1679,1993 'x':1823 'x11':689,1283,1300,1313,1645,1726 'x11-only':1282,1299 'xcb':823 'xclip':1636,1642,1695 'xdm':1538 'xdotool':1786 'xfce':974,983,1407 'xkill':1816 'xmonad':1436 'xorg':40,188,767,844,1364,1552,1672,1783 'xorg-lik':1363 'xprop':1287 'xrandr':1345 'xwayland':831,1845 'ydotool':712,1791,1808 'yeah':1857,1943,1954 'year':190,411,439 'yes':112,153,199,691,1367,1788,1818 'yet':1014,1179 'zoom':537,553,590,601,638"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700305796
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://feddit.uk/post/4608014"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2043
      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2088
      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
  +body: """
    > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
    \n
    … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
    \n
    > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
    \n
    Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
    """
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-11-19 15:48:17.0 +01:00
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  +mentions: [
    "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
    "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
    "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
    "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
  ]
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  -id: 139935
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    date: 2023-11-23 18:21:48.0 +01:00
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15 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1561
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2267 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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          It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
          \n
          English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
          """
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      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
    \n
    … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
    \n
    > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
    \n
    Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715
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    +slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
    +title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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      Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
      \n
      This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
      \n
      Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
      \n
      ##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
      \n
      - *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
      - *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
      - *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
      - *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
      \n
      …*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
      \n
      In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
      \n
      As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
      \n
      Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
      \n
      And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
      \n
      As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
      \n
      Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
      - *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
      - *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
      - *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
      - *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
      \n
      Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
      - *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
      \n
      Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
      - *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
      - *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
      \n
      Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
      \n
      DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
      \n
      Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
      \n
      As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
      - *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
      - *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
      \n
      Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
      \n
      - *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
      - *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
      - *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
      - *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
      - *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
      - *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
      - *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
      - *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
      - *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
      - *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
      - *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
      \n
      And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
      """
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        +body: "Some people including myself call Wayland X12 because Wayland is a subset of the X12 protocol made by the X11 maintainers, and as such is as close to an X11 successor as you can get."
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          It feels like “English is broken because my friend only knows German.” to me. English works just fine. Teach your friend English.\n
          \n
          English is Wayland. German is X11. Friend is software.
          """
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          date: 2023-11-19 00:06:25.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138325
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1715}
    ]
    -id: 13812
    -titleTs: "'articl':7 'boycott':5 'respons':2 'wayland':6"
    -bodyTs: "'-1':1800 '/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227':5 '/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1605 '/etc/os-release':571 '/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':8 '/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':996 '/usr/bin/wayland':152 '1':300,731,1798 '10':410 '2':307,734,1463 '2019':1257 '2024':981 '3':723 '4.20':984 '8':1625 '99':1748 'abandon':50 'absolut':147 'activ':1897 'adjust':883 'admit':1142 'agenda':1220 'allow':136,918,929 'alot':464 'alreadi':1427,1506 'also':239,808,993,1692,1760 'altern':895,1331,1347,1693 'alway':847 'amd':1035,1058 'announc':1417 'anymor':1893 'anyth':264,648,1886,1992 'anywher':962 'ao':1568 'api':618 'app':1846 'appar':1020 'appimag':665,791,818 'applic':111,258,270,365,371,446,460,526,602,685,699,863,950,1127,1646,1824 'appreci':2020 'arbirtrari':606 'argument':1155,1742 'articl':3,11,92,518,661,812,869,1140,1223,1372,1535,1918,1965,1979 'askpass':1703 'assum':775,1097,1571,1736,1883,1938 'atom':1727 'attempt':1508 'autom':675 'automat':826 'avoid':179 'awar':450 'away':1550 'awesom':1490 'awesomewm':1483 'back':503,976,2014 'backend':473 'base':1980 'basic':1587 'becom':425,1777 'better':1766,1768,1778 'bias':1149 'biggest':1477 'bill':1811 'boom':951 'bother':645 'break':362,523,674,790,836,899,1153,1232,1276,1289,1298,1554,1607,1635,1701,1725,1744,1785,1815,1855,1865,1889,1901,1927,1941,1951 'brodi':505 'broken':98,1585 'bsd':1154 'budgi':1409 'built':58,374,842 'bunch':163 'busi':395 'bwing':74 'call':1450,1459,1466 'cannot':128 'case':1576,1863,1949,1960 'challeng':1503 'chang':266,470,570,1593 'choos':941 'cinnamon':1408 'clear':562,566 'clipboard':1699 'close':1240 'closer':1009 'code':1396 'color':885,1890 'colour':860 'come':404,975 'comment':559,1112,1689 'compar':1781 'complet':768 'complex':1391 'complic':1201 'compon':84 'compositor':115,122,213,244,279,339,857,1186,1923 'conclud':1974 'confirm':1063 'consid':752,1068 'control':862 'convinc':33 'cooler':1517 'correct':366,783,1163,1920,2012 'couldn':642 'cours':1317,1655,1827 'crash':102 'cross':1136 'cruft':249 'current':599,1375 'd':1334 'de':299,306 'debian':436,575 'decid':387 'decor':1204 'default':433 'defenc':413 'deni':1065 'depend':1280 'des':1380,1403 'describ':1295 'design':100,920 'desktop':625,1968 'dev':416,1441,1491 'develop':144,259,591 'differ':278 'difficulti':1264 'disabl':1752 'discuss':1267 'doc':1592 'doesn':301,312,702,845,956,1649 'driver':1027,1071 'drm':1902 'drop':766,1456 'drop-in':1455 'dwl':1451 'dwm':1445 'edit':1102,1177,1577,1680 'effici':235 'effort':73 'either':393,1416 'els':963,1887 'enforc':587 'enlighten':1410 'enough':399,427,1770 'especi':851 'even':434,1383,1413 'everi':709 'evid':2017 'evidenc':1510 'exist':708,1513 'face':681 'fact':1343,1580 'fade':1549 'fair':1983 'fallback':827 'familiar':1907,1933 'fan':27 'far':965 'featur':318,331,1402 'fedora':762 'file':1969 'fit':177,1809 'fix':781,1101,1260,1274 'follow':368,1265 'forese':1175 'freebsd':26,68,1188 'full':18 'function':1366 'futur':1176 'game':1745 'gamer':1759 'gammastep':897 'gave':481 'get':12,910,1008,1765 'gist.github.com':4,7 'gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)':6 'github.com':1604 'github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)':1603 'given':1388 'global':729,743,900,911 'gnome':286,543,615,651,726,733,1219,1404 'go':89 'got':1991 'graphic':472 'great':800 'guess':1161,1335,1629 'gui':1126 'guy':22 'happen':342,1670,1674 'hardwar':1004,1053,1123 'heard':710,1019,1078,1209 'hire':1439 'home':1930 'hope':1772 'hotkey':901,912 'howev':329,813 'hyprland':509,906,926 'i3':1452 'icewm':1539 'icon':1953 'ignor':1578 'implement':167,214,221,317,336,935,961,1362 'improv':1082 'in-hom':1928 'incred':757 'instert':1358 'integr':227 'intel':1052,1070,1086,1105,1122 'intend':1384 'introduc':987 'irrespons':398 'isn':48 'issu':181,554,597,655,724,777,1022,1118,1238,1713,1910 'jitsi':531 'jwm':1536 'kanshi':1353 'kde':350,728,736,763,1405 'keep':37,1006 'key':942 'keylogg':146 'keystrok':141 'know':669,741,968,1340,1564,1998 'knowledg':1730,1985,2004 'known':353 'kwin':360 'labwc':1467 'lack':1729 'last':654 'late':980 'lead':320 'lean':324 'leas':1903 'let':87,211,1996 'librari':86 'like':135,291,858,896,1167,1286,1348,1365,1548,1696 'limit':586,1984,2007 'link':1,550,1237,1583,1589,1602,1611,1705 'linux':60,82,1151,1601 'linux-specif':81 'littl':739 'll':1570 'look':1795 'lot':71,131 'm':448,462,787,1038,1056,1160,1325,1628,1747,1756,1804,1850 'made':283,695,1083 'main':1213 'make':45,143,253,421 'manag':106,120,197,231,1291,1310,1431,1891 'mani':172,438,452,1080,1081 'mark':1597,1619 'massiv':25 'mate':1406 'mayb':1848 'mean':240,704 'measur':924 'mention':1249,1532 'menus':730,744 'mess':184 'might':1192,1472 'mind':62 'minor':1377 'misrememb':1852 'miss':1480 'mode':832 'much':248 'multipl':220,1104 'must':1841 'name':715 'necessari':333 'necessarili':303 'need':314 'net':1555 'netwm/ewmh':1942 'new':255,381 'next':719 'nomachin':1608 'non':650 'non-gnom':649 'normal':916 'notic':1473 'noveau':1029 'nvidia':1003 'nx':1609 'ob':484,516 'obscur':1545 'offer':879 'offload':192 'often':352 'oftentim':310 'okay':1497 'one':256,672,1133,1165,1228,1474,1567 'open':547,1073 'openbox':1461 'openbsd':1197 'opinion':1044 'other':1199 'outdat':10,521 'page':1615 'pantheon':1414 'part':203 'pass':946 'peopl':35,1686 'perfect':496 'perform':237,1775,1779 'person':564,594 'plagu':187 'plasma':358,1875 'pleas':782,1994,1995 'plugin':799,804,824 'point':93,95,1108,1612,1682,1708,1723 'pointless':585,632 'posit':1869 'post':13,595 'prefer':2013 'present':903 'prevent':1125,1668 'probabl':418,779,1337 'problem':658,806,952 'program':841 'project':165,480,748,1531,1881 'proper':1001,1050 'proprietari':1026 'protocol':160,209,1253,1560 'proven':892 'pureo':573 'put':75,604,634 'qt':798 'qtile':1432 'quit':491,520,2006 'quot':809,870,1370 'raising/activating':1234 'randr':294,1351 're':1294,1665,1794 'read':556,626 'readi':349 'realis':401 'realli':262 'reason':51,1095,1833 'recent':1412 'record':364,370,512 'redshift':837,872,894 'releas':992,1622 'remain':1171 'rememb':713,1835 'replac':1458,1801 'requir':468,1357,1397 'rescuetim':1277,1279 'resolv':1245,1716 'respons':1976 'restrict':607,633 'rhat':1906 'robertson':506 'root':1131 'rumour':1042 'run':110,222,829,1129 'safe':773 'said':1493,1639,1962 'screen':363,369,524 'screensav':1856 'screenshar':609 'secur':923 'see':139,176,833,1721,2002 'seem':539,958,1114,1156,1181,1242,1520,1706,1859,1945,1956 'server':118,1202 'set':158,1866 'setter':867 'shame':1488 'share':525 'sheer':1390 'ship':795,802,820 'show':530 'side':1087,1203 'simultan':223 'sinc':877 'sire':463 'skip':1558 'skiptaskbar':1595 'small':1543 'smaller':479 'softwar':327,676 'solut':328,346,937,1146 'solv':807,953,1621,1633 'someon':1499 'someth':1214 'sometim':330 'soon':1769 'sort':458 'sourc':1074 'special':797 'specif':83,284,288 'spiritu':1448,1464 'stabl':426,758 'stand':1376 'start':1419,1423 'state':567,598,678,1224,1557 'still':1574 'stop':932 'stori':19 'stream':1931 'streamlin':326 'structur':206 'subpar':1774 'successor':1449,1465 'sudo':1702 'suffer':245 'support':376,875,989,1386,1399,1428,1924 'sure':46,422,1327,1749,1806,1877 'sway':1460 'take':107,1500 'task':1306 'taskbar':1559 'team':639 'temperatur':861,886 'term':443 'test':647 'thing':133,1089 'think':500,770,1091,1226,1270 'though':1830 'thus':178,233 'time':16,126,1256 'tool':1285,1302,1314 'topic':1733,1915,1988 'toward':1150 'tri':31,1666 'trivial':148 'true':308,890,1168,1195,1212,1230,1884,1939 'twm':1537 'understand':1912 'understood':476 'unfortun':954 'univers':345 'unless':280 'unmaintain':183 'unsupport':1599 'updat':529 'use':39,79,508,515,620,697,746,1034,1057,1971 'user':1106 'usual':341 'valid':1157,1741 'various':1305 've':1018,1077,1208 'version':1624 'video':514 'vsync':1753 'wallpap':866 'want':43,419,1437 'way':217,881,1516,1711 'way-cool':1515 'waybox':1469 'wayland':56,96,155,273,361,377,379,402,423,489,522,536,624,673,692,760,789,835,850,876,898,969,988,997,1046,1120,1124,1147,1185,1200,1231,1275,1288,1297,1323,1356,1387,1429,1553,1606,1634,1653,1661,1663,1700,1724,1743,1763,1784,1814,1840,1854,1864,1888,1900,1926,1940,1950 'well':226,750,1031,1787,1817 'wiki.xfce.org':995 'wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)':994 'window':105,119,137,196,230,1233,1290,1309,1430,1868,1952 'wine':1761 'wip':1252,1873 'without':69 'wl':1698 'wl-clipboard':1697 'wlr':293,1350 'wlr-randr':292,1349 'wlroot':290,1355 'wm':1359,1556 'wms':1378,1478 'work':66,193,271,276,297,304,466,487,534,541,578,613,621,687,848,854,972,1000,1030,1040,1049,1321,1420,1424,1651,1659,1837,1898 'workaround':817 'woukd':1259 'would':64,1093,1495,2018 'wouldn':260,1523,1657 'write':1393 'writer':662,1141 'wrong':788,1679,1993 'x':1823 'x11':689,1283,1300,1313,1645,1726 'x11-only':1282,1299 'xcb':823 'xclip':1636,1642,1695 'xdm':1538 'xdotool':1786 'xfce':974,983,1407 'xkill':1816 'xmonad':1436 'xorg':40,188,767,844,1364,1552,1672,1783 'xorg-lik':1363 'xprop':1287 'xrandr':1345 'xwayland':831,1845 'ydotool':712,1791,1808 'yeah':1857,1943,1954 'year':190,411,439 'yes':112,153,199,691,1367,1788,1818 'yet':1014,1179 'zoom':537,553,590,601,638"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700305796
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://feddit.uk/post/4608014"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2043
      date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2088
      date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1565 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1714 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1584 …}
  +body: """
    > because everything works fine in Xorg.\n
    \n
    … for *you*. I got the honor to try to find the correct match of specific NVIDIA driver version, desktop environment and compositor to get anything even remotely usable back when NVIDIA only supported Xorg. I was greeted with either an entire crash, black screen, graphical glitches, and/or screen flickering if I forgot to pin package versions. Connecting displays from right to left crashed everything, so I was forced to change my display setup to left to right. Of course, waking up displays from sleep never worked either. So don’t pretend that Wayland is a broken mess while abandonware Xorg is our Lord and savior.\n
    \n
    > Stop pushing people towards Wayland, let it happen naturally when it will be ready and better, and they’ll come. Trying to force adoption will just make people resent it.\n
    \n
    Software vendors drag their feet to adopt Wayland as nobody forces them to adopt Wayland. Again, Wayland works fine. X11 features don’t work in Wayland. But Wayland isn’t X11. Xwayland solves a lot of these problems. Software vendors back then didn’t port their Windows software to OS/2 due to OS/2’s Windows compatibility. Video game publishers today don’t port their games to Linux in part due to Steam Proton. Software vendors today don’t port their X11 software to Wayland due to Xwayland. So the ideal solution is to force a critical mass to adopt Wayland, drop Xwayland, and let software vendors suffer from the consequences of ignoring 16 years of Linux desktop protocol innovation.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 2
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700405297 {#1729
    date: 2023-11-19 15:48:17.0 +01:00
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  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
    "@JakenVeina@lemm.ee"
    "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
    "@lemmyvore@feddit.nl"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1718 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1716 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1739 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1740 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2465 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
  -id: 139935
  -bodyTs: "'16':254 'abandonwar':105 'adopt':135,148,155,240 'and/or':53 'anyth':31 'back':35,182 'better':127 'black':49 'broken':102 'chang':76 'come':131 'compat':197 'compositor':28 'connect':63 'consequ':251 'correct':18 'cours':85 'crash':48,69 'critic':237 'desktop':25,258 'didn':184 'display':64,78,88 'drag':144 'driver':23 'drop':242 'due':192,211,226 'either':45,93 'entir':47 'environ':26 'even':32 'everyth':2,70 'featur':162 'feet':146 'find':16 'fine':4,160 'flicker':55 'forc':74,134,152,235 'forgot':58 'game':199,206 'get':30 'glitch':52 'got':10 'graphic':51 'greet':43 'happen':119 'honor':12 'ideal':231 'ignor':253 'innov':260 'isn':170 'left':68,81 'let':117,245 'linux':208,257 'll':130 'lord':109 'lot':176 'make':138 'mass':238 'match':19 'mess':103 'natur':120 'never':91 'nobodi':151 'nvidia':22,37 'os/2':191,194 'packag':61 'part':210 'peopl':114,139 'pin':60 'port':186,204,220 'pretend':97 'problem':179 'protocol':259 'proton':214 'publish':200 'push':113 'readi':125 'remot':33 'resent':140 'right':66,83 'savior':111 'screen':50,54 'setup':79 'sleep':90 'softwar':142,180,189,215,223,246 'solut':232 'solv':174 'specif':21 'steam':213 'stop':112 'suffer':248 'support':39 'today':201,217 'toward':115 'tri':14,132 'usabl':34 'vendor':143,181,216,247 'version':24,62 'video':198 'wake':86 'wayland':99,116,149,156,158,167,169,225,241 'window':188,196 'work':3,92,159,165 'x11':161,172,222 'xorg':6,40,106 'xwayland':173,228,243 'year':255"
  +ranking: 0
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  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/203274"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700760108 {#1724
    date: 2023-11-23 18:21:48.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700405297 {#1719
    date: 2023-11-19 15:48:17.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 139935
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
17 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
18 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
  +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
  +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
    \n
    I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
    \n
    Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 192
  +favouriteCount: 475
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700681324 {#2361
    date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
      +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700351294 {#1599
        date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
        "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
        "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
      -id: 138444
      -bodyTs: "'advertis':1,15,31,47 'base':52 'buy':63 'care':3 'cost':29 'cpm':12 'creator':37,73 'ctr':9,13 'earn':43 'enabl':14 'engag':7,20,25 'even':65 'fake':39 'ignor':75 'inform':55 'instead':10 'keep':17 'lie':22 'lot':5 'measur':49 'money':45 'number':26 'payout':51 'peopl':57 'rare':48 'real':24 'reli':32 'save':28 'segment':35 'sponsorblock':60,67,76 'statist':36,41 'track':18 'unverifi':54 'use':8,59 'video':34 'without':66 'word':71 'wouldn':61"
      +ranking: 0
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      +upVotes: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202801"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700680580 {#1618
        date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351294 {#1625
        date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138444
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
      +body: """
        > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
        \n
        I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
        \n
        If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
        \n
        If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700406973 {#2411
        date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
        "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
        "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
      -id: 139999
      -bodyTs: "'/)':218 'ad':91,119 'adblock':57 'advert':66 'advertis':241 'annoy':141 'aren':48 'assert':4 'automat':154 'base':131 'benefici':110 'blacklist':157 'browser':186 'budget':151 'buy':17,37 'charg':195 'come':5 'compani':175 'consid':84 'crap':242 'd':82 'definit':83 'exclud':169 'extens':187 'fantasi':127 'fantasy-them':126 'filter':225 'fit':75 'fuck':143 'gacha':135 'game':136,140,163,171,173 'get':28,85,201 'go':15 'googl':180 'idea':239 'ignor':161 'impact':102 'influenc':94 'keep':20 'land':209 'lifetim':206 'like':72 'live':31 'll':159 'look':123 'market':150,166 'massiv':149 'need':77 'negat':101 'never':14 'opportun':207 'peopl':8,19,36,45,52,246 'perfect':74 'play':134 'preemptiv':224 'premium':197 'proactiv':160 'process':232 'product':18,40,69,87 'public':212 'publish':177 'purchas':231 're':153 'realli':237 'relev':42 'research':167 'result':182 'role':133 'role-play':132 'saa':192 'say':21 'search':181 'see':64,117 'seem':71 'sell':106 'shame':215 'shitti':238 'softwar':227 'somehow':13,63 'specif':139 'sponsorblock':11,55,90 'sso':199 'sso.tax':217 'sso.tax/)':216 'sysadmin':221 'theme':128 'thing':38 'turn':130 'turn-bas':129 'ublacklist':185 'use':10,54,89,222 'usual':98 'vendor':228 'wall':213 'whatev':104 'world':34 'wrong':245"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/203295"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700763201 {#2447
        date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700406973 {#2422
        date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139999
    }
  ]
  -id: 13845
  -titleTs: "'app':5 'grayjay':6 'loui':1 'rossman/futo':2 'shame':11 'sponsorblock':9 'support':8 'use':15 'youtub':4"
  -bodyTs: "'ad':76,111,127,168 'ad-block':110,126 'ahead':148,164 'announc':15 'app':25,61 'autom':146 'backend':66 'block':112,128 'box':100 'bruh':105 'click':98 'concern':30 'continu':104 'could':103 'creator':94,178 'delight':73 'design':56 'enabl':85 'end':138 'end-us':137 'even':158 'experi':9 'extens':143 'facilit':125 'frontend':114 'general':55 'gonna':154 'grayjay':11 'gymnast':119 'harm':93,176 'hell':43 'howev':80 'isn':34 'kind':116 'know':27 'larg':18 'like':53 'liter':108 'lot':46 'm':175 'made':96 'mental':118 'open':37,48 'past':165 'philosophi':58 'plus':51 'pretti':23 're':107 'read':169 'recent':67 'revanc':50 'seek':147 'serious':1,153 'shame':135 'simpli':145 'sinc':12 'skip':163 'sourc':38 'sponsor':167 'sponsorblock':79,160 'support':77 'surpris':5,71 'sweet':24 'take':122 'tell':155 'think':19 'time':134 'true':36 'turn':90 'updat':63 'use':141 'user':139 've':7 'video':150,172 'warn':88 'went':83 'without':159 'youtub':65,113"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700313808
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ca/post/9522961"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
    date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
  +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
  +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
    \n
    I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
    \n
    Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 192
  +favouriteCount: 475
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700681324 {#2361
    date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
      +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700351294 {#1599
        date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
        "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
        "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
      -id: 138444
      -bodyTs: "'advertis':1,15,31,47 'base':52 'buy':63 'care':3 'cost':29 'cpm':12 'creator':37,73 'ctr':9,13 'earn':43 'enabl':14 'engag':7,20,25 'even':65 'fake':39 'ignor':75 'inform':55 'instead':10 'keep':17 'lie':22 'lot':5 'measur':49 'money':45 'number':26 'payout':51 'peopl':57 'rare':48 'real':24 'reli':32 'save':28 'segment':35 'sponsorblock':60,67,76 'statist':36,41 'track':18 'unverifi':54 'use':8,59 'video':34 'without':66 'word':71 'wouldn':61"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202801"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700680580 {#1618
        date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351294 {#1625
        date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138444
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
      +body: """
        > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
        \n
        I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
        \n
        If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
        \n
        If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700406973 {#2411
        date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
        "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
        "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
      -id: 139999
      -bodyTs: "'/)':218 'ad':91,119 'adblock':57 'advert':66 'advertis':241 'annoy':141 'aren':48 'assert':4 'automat':154 'base':131 'benefici':110 'blacklist':157 'browser':186 'budget':151 'buy':17,37 'charg':195 'come':5 'compani':175 'consid':84 'crap':242 'd':82 'definit':83 'exclud':169 'extens':187 'fantasi':127 'fantasy-them':126 'filter':225 'fit':75 'fuck':143 'gacha':135 'game':136,140,163,171,173 'get':28,85,201 'go':15 'googl':180 'idea':239 'ignor':161 'impact':102 'influenc':94 'keep':20 'land':209 'lifetim':206 'like':72 'live':31 'll':159 'look':123 'market':150,166 'massiv':149 'need':77 'negat':101 'never':14 'opportun':207 'peopl':8,19,36,45,52,246 'perfect':74 'play':134 'preemptiv':224 'premium':197 'proactiv':160 'process':232 'product':18,40,69,87 'public':212 'publish':177 'purchas':231 're':153 'realli':237 'relev':42 'research':167 'result':182 'role':133 'role-play':132 'saa':192 'say':21 'search':181 'see':64,117 'seem':71 'sell':106 'shame':215 'shitti':238 'softwar':227 'somehow':13,63 'specif':139 'sponsorblock':11,55,90 'sso':199 'sso.tax':217 'sso.tax/)':216 'sysadmin':221 'theme':128 'thing':38 'turn':130 'turn-bas':129 'ublacklist':185 'use':10,54,89,222 'usual':98 'vendor':228 'wall':213 'whatev':104 'world':34 'wrong':245"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/203295"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700763201 {#2447
        date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700406973 {#2422
        date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139999
    }
  ]
  -id: 13845
  -titleTs: "'app':5 'grayjay':6 'loui':1 'rossman/futo':2 'shame':11 'sponsorblock':9 'support':8 'use':15 'youtub':4"
  -bodyTs: "'ad':76,111,127,168 'ad-block':110,126 'ahead':148,164 'announc':15 'app':25,61 'autom':146 'backend':66 'block':112,128 'box':100 'bruh':105 'click':98 'concern':30 'continu':104 'could':103 'creator':94,178 'delight':73 'design':56 'enabl':85 'end':138 'end-us':137 'even':158 'experi':9 'extens':143 'facilit':125 'frontend':114 'general':55 'gonna':154 'grayjay':11 'gymnast':119 'harm':93,176 'hell':43 'howev':80 'isn':34 'kind':116 'know':27 'larg':18 'like':53 'liter':108 'lot':46 'm':175 'made':96 'mental':118 'open':37,48 'past':165 'philosophi':58 'plus':51 'pretti':23 're':107 'read':169 'recent':67 'revanc':50 'seek':147 'serious':1,153 'shame':135 'simpli':145 'sinc':12 'skip':163 'sourc':38 'sponsor':167 'sponsorblock':79,160 'support':77 'surpris':5,71 'sweet':24 'take':122 'tell':155 'think':19 'time':134 'true':36 'turn':90 'updat':63 'use':141 'user':139 've':7 'video':150,172 'warn':88 'went':83 'without':159 'youtub':65,113"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700313808
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ca/post/9522961"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
    date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
20 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
  +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
  +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
    \n
    I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
    \n
    Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 192
  +favouriteCount: 475
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700681324 {#2361
    date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
      +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1700351294 {#1599
        date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
        "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
        "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
      -id: 138444
      -bodyTs: "'advertis':1,15,31,47 'base':52 'buy':63 'care':3 'cost':29 'cpm':12 'creator':37,73 'ctr':9,13 'earn':43 'enabl':14 'engag':7,20,25 'even':65 'fake':39 'ignor':75 'inform':55 'instead':10 'keep':17 'lie':22 'lot':5 'measur':49 'money':45 'number':26 'payout':51 'peopl':57 'rare':48 'real':24 'reli':32 'save':28 'segment':35 'sponsorblock':60,67,76 'statist':36,41 'track':18 'unverifi':54 'use':8,59 'video':34 'without':66 'word':71 'wouldn':61"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202801"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700680580 {#1618
        date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351294 {#1625
        date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 138444
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
      +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
      +body: """
        > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
        \n
        I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
        \n
        If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
        \n
        If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1700406973 {#2411
        date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
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        "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
        "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
        "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
        "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
      -id: 139999
      -bodyTs: "'/)':218 'ad':91,119 'adblock':57 'advert':66 'advertis':241 'annoy':141 'aren':48 'assert':4 'automat':154 'base':131 'benefici':110 'blacklist':157 'browser':186 'budget':151 'buy':17,37 'charg':195 'come':5 'compani':175 'consid':84 'crap':242 'd':82 'definit':83 'exclud':169 'extens':187 'fantasi':127 'fantasy-them':126 'filter':225 'fit':75 'fuck':143 'gacha':135 'game':136,140,163,171,173 'get':28,85,201 'go':15 'googl':180 'idea':239 'ignor':161 'impact':102 'influenc':94 'keep':20 'land':209 'lifetim':206 'like':72 'live':31 'll':159 'look':123 'market':150,166 'massiv':149 'need':77 'negat':101 'never':14 'opportun':207 'peopl':8,19,36,45,52,246 'perfect':74 'play':134 'preemptiv':224 'premium':197 'proactiv':160 'process':232 'product':18,40,69,87 'public':212 'publish':177 'purchas':231 're':153 'realli':237 'relev':42 'research':167 'result':182 'role':133 'role-play':132 'saa':192 'say':21 'search':181 'see':64,117 'seem':71 'sell':106 'shame':215 'shitti':238 'softwar':227 'somehow':13,63 'specif':139 'sponsorblock':11,55,90 'sso':199 'sso.tax':217 'sso.tax/)':216 'sysadmin':221 'theme':128 'thing':38 'turn':130 'turn-bas':129 'ublacklist':185 'use':10,54,89,222 'usual':98 'vendor':228 'wall':213 'whatev':104 'world':34 'wrong':245"
      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/203295"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700763201 {#2447
        date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700406973 {#2422
        date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 139999
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  ]
  -id: 13845
  -titleTs: "'app':5 'grayjay':6 'loui':1 'rossman/futo':2 'shame':11 'sponsorblock':9 'support':8 'use':15 'youtub':4"
  -bodyTs: "'ad':76,111,127,168 'ad-block':110,126 'ahead':148,164 'announc':15 'app':25,61 'autom':146 'backend':66 'block':112,128 'box':100 'bruh':105 'click':98 'concern':30 'continu':104 'could':103 'creator':94,178 'delight':73 'design':56 'enabl':85 'end':138 'end-us':137 'even':158 'experi':9 'extens':143 'facilit':125 'frontend':114 'general':55 'gonna':154 'grayjay':11 'gymnast':119 'harm':93,176 'hell':43 'howev':80 'isn':34 'kind':116 'know':27 'larg':18 'like':53 'liter':108 'lot':46 'm':175 'made':96 'mental':118 'open':37,48 'past':165 'philosophi':58 'plus':51 'pretti':23 're':107 'read':169 'recent':67 'revanc':50 'seek':147 'serious':1,153 'shame':135 'simpli':145 'sinc':12 'skip':163 'sourc':38 'sponsor':167 'sponsorblock':79,160 'support':77 'surpris':5,71 'sweet':24 'take':122 'tell':155 'think':19 'time':134 'true':36 'turn':90 'updat':63 'use':141 'user':139 've':7 'video':150,172 'warn':88 'went':83 'without':159 'youtub':65,113"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700313808
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ca/post/9522961"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
    date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
21 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
22 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
    +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
      \n
      I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
      \n
      Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 192
    +favouriteCount: 475
    +score: 0
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1700681324 {#2361
      date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
        +body: """
          > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
          \n
          I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
          \n
          If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
          \n
          If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700406973 {#2411
          date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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          "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
          "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
          "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
        -id: 139999
        -bodyTs: "'/)':218 'ad':91,119 'adblock':57 'advert':66 'advertis':241 'annoy':141 'aren':48 'assert':4 'automat':154 'base':131 'benefici':110 'blacklist':157 'browser':186 'budget':151 'buy':17,37 'charg':195 'come':5 'compani':175 'consid':84 'crap':242 'd':82 'definit':83 'exclud':169 'extens':187 'fantasi':127 'fantasy-them':126 'filter':225 'fit':75 'fuck':143 'gacha':135 'game':136,140,163,171,173 'get':28,85,201 'go':15 'googl':180 'idea':239 'ignor':161 'impact':102 'influenc':94 'keep':20 'land':209 'lifetim':206 'like':72 'live':31 'll':159 'look':123 'market':150,166 'massiv':149 'need':77 'negat':101 'never':14 'opportun':207 'peopl':8,19,36,45,52,246 'perfect':74 'play':134 'preemptiv':224 'premium':197 'proactiv':160 'process':232 'product':18,40,69,87 'public':212 'publish':177 'purchas':231 're':153 'realli':237 'relev':42 'research':167 'result':182 'role':133 'role-play':132 'saa':192 'say':21 'search':181 'see':64,117 'seem':71 'sell':106 'shame':215 'shitti':238 'softwar':227 'somehow':13,63 'specif':139 'sponsorblock':11,55,90 'sso':199 'sso.tax':217 'sso.tax/)':216 'sysadmin':221 'theme':128 'thing':38 'turn':130 'turn-bas':129 'ublacklist':185 'use':10,54,89,222 'usual':98 'vendor':228 'wall':213 'whatev':104 'world':34 'wrong':245"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/203295"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700763201 {#2447
          date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700406973 {#2422
          date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139999
      }
    ]
    -id: 13845
    -titleTs: "'app':5 'grayjay':6 'loui':1 'rossman/futo':2 'shame':11 'sponsorblock':9 'support':8 'use':15 'youtub':4"
    -bodyTs: "'ad':76,111,127,168 'ad-block':110,126 'ahead':148,164 'announc':15 'app':25,61 'autom':146 'backend':66 'block':112,128 'box':100 'bruh':105 'click':98 'concern':30 'continu':104 'could':103 'creator':94,178 'delight':73 'design':56 'enabl':85 'end':138 'end-us':137 'even':158 'experi':9 'extens':143 'facilit':125 'frontend':114 'general':55 'gonna':154 'grayjay':11 'gymnast':119 'harm':93,176 'hell':43 'howev':80 'isn':34 'kind':116 'know':27 'larg':18 'like':53 'liter':108 'lot':46 'm':175 'made':96 'mental':118 'open':37,48 'past':165 'philosophi':58 'plus':51 'pretti':23 're':107 'read':169 'recent':67 'revanc':50 'seek':147 'serious':1,153 'shame':135 'simpli':145 'sinc':12 'skip':163 'sourc':38 'sponsor':167 'sponsorblock':79,160 'support':77 'surpris':5,71 'sweet':24 'take':122 'tell':155 'think':19 'time':134 'true':36 'turn':90 'updat':63 'use':141 'user':139 've':7 'video':150,172 'warn':88 'went':83 'without':159 'youtub':65,113"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700313808
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ca/post/9522961"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
      date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
  +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 5
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700351294 {#1599
    date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
    "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
    "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
  -id: 138444
  -bodyTs: "'advertis':1,15,31,47 'base':52 'buy':63 'care':3 'cost':29 'cpm':12 'creator':37,73 'ctr':9,13 'earn':43 'enabl':14 'engag':7,20,25 'even':65 'fake':39 'ignor':75 'inform':55 'instead':10 'keep':17 'lie':22 'lot':5 'measur':49 'money':45 'number':26 'payout':51 'peopl':57 'rare':48 'real':24 'reli':32 'save':28 'segment':35 'sponsorblock':60,67,76 'statist':36,41 'track':18 'unverifi':54 'use':8,59 'video':34 'without':66 'word':71 'wouldn':61"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
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  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202801"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700680580 {#1618
    date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351294 {#1625
    date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 138444
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
23 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
    +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
      \n
      I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
      \n
      Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 192
    +favouriteCount: 475
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1700681324 {#2361
      date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
        +body: """
          > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
          \n
          I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
          \n
          If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
          \n
          If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700406973 {#2411
          date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
          "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
          "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
        -id: 139999
        -bodyTs: "'/)':218 'ad':91,119 'adblock':57 'advert':66 'advertis':241 'annoy':141 'aren':48 'assert':4 'automat':154 'base':131 'benefici':110 'blacklist':157 'browser':186 'budget':151 'buy':17,37 'charg':195 'come':5 'compani':175 'consid':84 'crap':242 'd':82 'definit':83 'exclud':169 'extens':187 'fantasi':127 'fantasy-them':126 'filter':225 'fit':75 'fuck':143 'gacha':135 'game':136,140,163,171,173 'get':28,85,201 'go':15 'googl':180 'idea':239 'ignor':161 'impact':102 'influenc':94 'keep':20 'land':209 'lifetim':206 'like':72 'live':31 'll':159 'look':123 'market':150,166 'massiv':149 'need':77 'negat':101 'never':14 'opportun':207 'peopl':8,19,36,45,52,246 'perfect':74 'play':134 'preemptiv':224 'premium':197 'proactiv':160 'process':232 'product':18,40,69,87 'public':212 'publish':177 'purchas':231 're':153 'realli':237 'relev':42 'research':167 'result':182 'role':133 'role-play':132 'saa':192 'say':21 'search':181 'see':64,117 'seem':71 'sell':106 'shame':215 'shitti':238 'softwar':227 'somehow':13,63 'specif':139 'sponsorblock':11,55,90 'sso':199 'sso.tax':217 'sso.tax/)':216 'sysadmin':221 'theme':128 'thing':38 'turn':130 'turn-bas':129 'ublacklist':185 'use':10,54,89,222 'usual':98 'vendor':228 'wall':213 'whatev':104 'world':34 'wrong':245"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/203295"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700763201 {#2447
          date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700406973 {#2422
          date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139999
      }
    ]
    -id: 13845
    -titleTs: "'app':5 'grayjay':6 'loui':1 'rossman/futo':2 'shame':11 'sponsorblock':9 'support':8 'use':15 'youtub':4"
    -bodyTs: "'ad':76,111,127,168 'ad-block':110,126 'ahead':148,164 'announc':15 'app':25,61 'autom':146 'backend':66 'block':112,128 'box':100 'bruh':105 'click':98 'concern':30 'continu':104 'could':103 'creator':94,178 'delight':73 'design':56 'enabl':85 'end':138 'end-us':137 'even':158 'experi':9 'extens':143 'facilit':125 'frontend':114 'general':55 'gonna':154 'grayjay':11 'gymnast':119 'harm':93,176 'hell':43 'howev':80 'isn':34 'kind':116 'know':27 'larg':18 'like':53 'liter':108 'lot':46 'm':175 'made':96 'mental':118 'open':37,48 'past':165 'philosophi':58 'plus':51 'pretti':23 're':107 'read':169 'recent':67 'revanc':50 'seek':147 'serious':1,153 'shame':135 'simpli':145 'sinc':12 'skip':163 'sourc':38 'sponsor':167 'sponsorblock':79,160 'support':77 'surpris':5,71 'sweet':24 'take':122 'tell':155 'think':19 'time':134 'true':36 'turn':90 'updat':63 'use':141 'user':139 've':7 'video':150,172 'warn':88 'went':83 'without':159 'youtub':65,113"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700313808
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ca/post/9522961"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
      date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
  +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 5
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700351294 {#1599
    date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
    "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
    "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
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  -id: 138444
  -bodyTs: "'advertis':1,15,31,47 'base':52 'buy':63 'care':3 'cost':29 'cpm':12 'creator':37,73 'ctr':9,13 'earn':43 'enabl':14 'engag':7,20,25 'even':65 'fake':39 'ignor':75 'inform':55 'instead':10 'keep':17 'lie':22 'lot':5 'measur':49 'money':45 'number':26 'payout':51 'peopl':57 'rare':48 'real':24 'reli':32 'save':28 'segment':35 'sponsorblock':60,67,76 'statist':36,41 'track':18 'unverifi':54 'use':8,59 'video':34 'without':66 'word':71 'wouldn':61"
  +ranking: 0
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  +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202801"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700680580 {#1618
    date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351294 {#1625
    date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 138444
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
24 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
    +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
      \n
      I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
      \n
      Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
      """
    +type: "article"
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      date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
    }
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
        +body: """
          > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
          \n
          I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
          \n
          If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
          \n
          If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
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          "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
          "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
          "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
          "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
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        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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          date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 139999
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    ]
    -id: 13845
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700313808
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ca/post/9522961"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
      date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
  +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +score: 0
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    date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
  }
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  +mentions: [
    "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
    "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
    "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
  -id: 138444
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  +ranking: 0
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    date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
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    date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
25 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
26 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
    +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
      \n
      I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
      \n
      Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 192
    +favouriteCount: 475
    +score: 0
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1700681324 {#2361
      date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
        +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 5
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700351294 {#1599
          date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
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        +mentions: [
          "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
          "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
          "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
        -id: 138444
        -bodyTs: "'advertis':1,15,31,47 'base':52 'buy':63 'care':3 'cost':29 'cpm':12 'creator':37,73 'ctr':9,13 'earn':43 'enabl':14 'engag':7,20,25 'even':65 'fake':39 'ignor':75 'inform':55 'instead':10 'keep':17 'lie':22 'lot':5 'measur':49 'money':45 'number':26 'payout':51 'peopl':57 'rare':48 'real':24 'reli':32 'save':28 'segment':35 'sponsorblock':60,67,76 'statist':36,41 'track':18 'unverifi':54 'use':8,59 'video':34 'without':66 'word':71 'wouldn':61"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202801"
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          date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351294 {#1625
          date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138444
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
    ]
    -id: 13845
    -titleTs: "'app':5 'grayjay':6 'loui':1 'rossman/futo':2 'shame':11 'sponsorblock':9 'support':8 'use':15 'youtub':4"
    -bodyTs: "'ad':76,111,127,168 'ad-block':110,126 'ahead':148,164 'announc':15 'app':25,61 'autom':146 'backend':66 'block':112,128 'box':100 'bruh':105 'click':98 'concern':30 'continu':104 'could':103 'creator':94,178 'delight':73 'design':56 'enabl':85 'end':138 'end-us':137 'even':158 'experi':9 'extens':143 'facilit':125 'frontend':114 'general':55 'gonna':154 'grayjay':11 'gymnast':119 'harm':93,176 'hell':43 'howev':80 'isn':34 'kind':116 'know':27 'larg':18 'like':53 'liter':108 'lot':46 'm':175 'made':96 'mental':118 'open':37,48 'past':165 'philosophi':58 'plus':51 'pretti':23 're':107 'read':169 'recent':67 'revanc':50 'seek':147 'serious':1,153 'shame':135 'simpli':145 'sinc':12 'skip':163 'sourc':38 'sponsor':167 'sponsorblock':79,160 'support':77 'surpris':5,71 'sweet':24 'take':122 'tell':155 'think':19 'time':134 'true':36 'turn':90 'updat':63 'use':141 'user':139 've':7 'video':150,172 'warn':88 'went':83 'without':159 'youtub':65,113"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700313808
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ca/post/9522961"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
      date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
  +body: """
    > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
    \n
    I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
    \n
    If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
    \n
    If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700406973 {#2411
    date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
    "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
    "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
    "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
  -id: 139999
  -bodyTs: "'/)':218 'ad':91,119 'adblock':57 'advert':66 'advertis':241 'annoy':141 'aren':48 'assert':4 'automat':154 'base':131 'benefici':110 'blacklist':157 'browser':186 'budget':151 'buy':17,37 'charg':195 'come':5 'compani':175 'consid':84 'crap':242 'd':82 'definit':83 'exclud':169 'extens':187 'fantasi':127 'fantasy-them':126 'filter':225 'fit':75 'fuck':143 'gacha':135 'game':136,140,163,171,173 'get':28,85,201 'go':15 'googl':180 'idea':239 'ignor':161 'impact':102 'influenc':94 'keep':20 'land':209 'lifetim':206 'like':72 'live':31 'll':159 'look':123 'market':150,166 'massiv':149 'need':77 'negat':101 'never':14 'opportun':207 'peopl':8,19,36,45,52,246 'perfect':74 'play':134 'preemptiv':224 'premium':197 'proactiv':160 'process':232 'product':18,40,69,87 'public':212 'publish':177 'purchas':231 're':153 'realli':237 'relev':42 'research':167 'result':182 'role':133 'role-play':132 'saa':192 'say':21 'search':181 'see':64,117 'seem':71 'sell':106 'shame':215 'shitti':238 'softwar':227 'somehow':13,63 'specif':139 'sponsorblock':11,55,90 'sso':199 'sso.tax':217 'sso.tax/)':216 'sysadmin':221 'theme':128 'thing':38 'turn':130 'turn-bas':129 'ublacklist':185 'use':10,54,89,222 'usual':98 'vendor':228 'wall':213 'whatev':104 'world':34 'wrong':245"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/203295"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700763201 {#2447
    date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700406973 {#2422
    date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 139999
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
27 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
    +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
      \n
      I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
      \n
      Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 192
    +favouriteCount: 475
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1700681324 {#2361
      date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
        +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 5
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700351294 {#1599
          date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
          "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
          "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
        -id: 138444
        -bodyTs: "'advertis':1,15,31,47 'base':52 'buy':63 'care':3 'cost':29 'cpm':12 'creator':37,73 'ctr':9,13 'earn':43 'enabl':14 'engag':7,20,25 'even':65 'fake':39 'ignor':75 'inform':55 'instead':10 'keep':17 'lie':22 'lot':5 'measur':49 'money':45 'number':26 'payout':51 'peopl':57 'rare':48 'real':24 'reli':32 'save':28 'segment':35 'sponsorblock':60,67,76 'statist':36,41 'track':18 'unverifi':54 'use':8,59 'video':34 'without':66 'word':71 'wouldn':61"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202801"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700680580 {#1618
          date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351294 {#1625
          date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138444
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
    ]
    -id: 13845
    -titleTs: "'app':5 'grayjay':6 'loui':1 'rossman/futo':2 'shame':11 'sponsorblock':9 'support':8 'use':15 'youtub':4"
    -bodyTs: "'ad':76,111,127,168 'ad-block':110,126 'ahead':148,164 'announc':15 'app':25,61 'autom':146 'backend':66 'block':112,128 'box':100 'bruh':105 'click':98 'concern':30 'continu':104 'could':103 'creator':94,178 'delight':73 'design':56 'enabl':85 'end':138 'end-us':137 'even':158 'experi':9 'extens':143 'facilit':125 'frontend':114 'general':55 'gonna':154 'grayjay':11 'gymnast':119 'harm':93,176 'hell':43 'howev':80 'isn':34 'kind':116 'know':27 'larg':18 'like':53 'liter':108 'lot':46 'm':175 'made':96 'mental':118 'open':37,48 'past':165 'philosophi':58 'plus':51 'pretti':23 're':107 'read':169 'recent':67 'revanc':50 'seek':147 'serious':1,153 'shame':135 'simpli':145 'sinc':12 'skip':163 'sourc':38 'sponsor':167 'sponsorblock':79,160 'support':77 'surpris':5,71 'sweet':24 'take':122 'tell':155 'think':19 'time':134 'true':36 'turn':90 'updat':63 'use':141 'user':139 've':7 'video':150,172 'warn':88 'went':83 'without':159 'youtub':65,113"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1700313808
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ca/post/9522961"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
      date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
  +body: """
    > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
    \n
    I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
    \n
    If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
    \n
    If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 0
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700406973 {#2411
    date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
    "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
    "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
    "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2461 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2460 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2452 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2454 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
  -id: 139999
  -bodyTs: "'/)':218 'ad':91,119 'adblock':57 'advert':66 'advertis':241 'annoy':141 'aren':48 'assert':4 'automat':154 'base':131 'benefici':110 'blacklist':157 'browser':186 'budget':151 'buy':17,37 'charg':195 'come':5 'compani':175 'consid':84 'crap':242 'd':82 'definit':83 'exclud':169 'extens':187 'fantasi':127 'fantasy-them':126 'filter':225 'fit':75 'fuck':143 'gacha':135 'game':136,140,163,171,173 'get':28,85,201 'go':15 'googl':180 'idea':239 'ignor':161 'impact':102 'influenc':94 'keep':20 'land':209 'lifetim':206 'like':72 'live':31 'll':159 'look':123 'market':150,166 'massiv':149 'need':77 'negat':101 'never':14 'opportun':207 'peopl':8,19,36,45,52,246 'perfect':74 'play':134 'preemptiv':224 'premium':197 'proactiv':160 'process':232 'product':18,40,69,87 'public':212 'publish':177 'purchas':231 're':153 'realli':237 'relev':42 'research':167 'result':182 'role':133 'role-play':132 'saa':192 'say':21 'search':181 'see':64,117 'seem':71 'sell':106 'shame':215 'shitti':238 'softwar':227 'somehow':13,63 'specif':139 'sponsorblock':11,55,90 'sso':199 'sso.tax':217 'sso.tax/)':216 'sysadmin':221 'theme':128 'thing':38 'turn':130 'turn-bas':129 'ublacklist':185 'use':10,54,89,222 'usual':98 'vendor':228 'wall':213 'whatev':104 'world':34 'wrong':245"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/203295"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700763201 {#2447
    date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700406973 {#2422
    date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 139999
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
28 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
  +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1910 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2294 …}
    +slug: "Louis-Rossman-FUTO-s-YouTube-app-GrayJay-now-supports-Sponsorblock-and-shames"
    +title: "Louis Rossman/FUTO's YouTube app, GrayJay, now supports Sponsorblock... and shames you if you use it"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      Seriously this was very surprising. I’ve been experimenting with GrayJay since it was announced and I largely think it’s a pretty sweet app. I know there are concerns over how it isn’t “true open source” but it’s a hell of a lot more open than ReVanced. Plus, I like the general design and philosophy of the app.\n
      \n
      I updated the YouTube backend recently and to my surprise and delight they had added support for SponsorBlock. However, when I went to enable it, it warned me “turning this on harms creators” and made me click a box before I could continue.\n
      \n
      Bruh, you’re literally an ad-blocking YouTube frontend. What kind of mental gymnastics does it take to be facilitating ad-blocking and then at the same time shame the end-user for using an extension which simply automates seeking ahead in videos. Are you seriously gonna tell me that even without Sponsorblock, if I skip ahead past the sponsored ad read in a video, that I’m “harming the creator”?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 192
    +favouriteCount: 475
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1700681324 {#2361
      date: 2023-11-22 20:28:44.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2202 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2257 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
        +user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1725 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
        +body: "Advertisers that care a lot about engagement use CTR instead of CPM. CTR enables advertisers to keep track of engagement and lie about real engagement numbers to save costs. If advertisers rely on video segment statistics, creators can fake the statistics to earn more money. So advertisers rarely measure their payout based on unverifiable information. And people that use SponsorBlock wouldn’t buy it, even without SponsorBlock. Or in other words: Most creators can ignore SponsorBlock."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 5
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1700351294 {#1599
          date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
          "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
          "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1735 …}
        -id: 138444
        -bodyTs: "'advertis':1,15,31,47 'base':52 'buy':63 'care':3 'cost':29 'cpm':12 'creator':37,73 'ctr':9,13 'earn':43 'enabl':14 'engag':7,20,25 'even':65 'fake':39 'ignor':75 'inform':55 'instead':10 'keep':17 'lie':22 'lot':5 'measur':49 'money':45 'number':26 'payout':51 'peopl':57 'rare':48 'real':24 'reli':32 'save':28 'segment':35 'sponsorblock':60,67,76 'statist':36,41 'track':18 'unverifi':54 'use':8,59 'video':34 'without':66 'word':71 'wouldn':61"
        +ranking: 0
        +commentCount: 0
        +upVotes: 0
        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://lemmy.haigner.me/comment/202801"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700680580 {#1618
          date: 2023-11-22 20:16:20.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700351294 {#1625
          date: 2023-11-19 00:48:14.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 138444
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
    ]
    -id: 13845
    -titleTs: "'app':5 'grayjay':6 'loui':1 'rossman/futo':2 'shame':11 'sponsorblock':9 'support':8 'use':15 'youtub':4"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700227408 {#2326
      date: 2023-11-17 14:23:28.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2458 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1723 …}
  +body: """
    > Where does this assertion come from that people that use sponsorblock are somehow never going to buy products? People keep saying it but I just don’t get it. We live in a world where people buy things. Some products are relevant to some people and some aren’t to other people. I use sponsorblock and adblock, and if I were to somehow see an advert for a product that seemed like it perfectly fit a need that I had, I’d definitely consider getting the product.\n
    \n
    I use SponsorBlock. Ads have an influence on me, but usually with a negative impact on whatever they sell, so it’s beneficial for them that I don’t see their ads.\n
    \n
    If I was looking for a fantasy-themed, turn-based role-playing gacha game, and a specific game annoys the fuck out of me with their massive marketing budget, they’re automatically on my blacklist. I’ll proactively ignore the game in my market research and exclude the game, the game’s company and publisher from my Google search results with the uBlacklist browser extension.\n
    \n
    If it’s a SaaS and they charge a premium for SSO, they get a once in a lifetime opportunity to land on a [public wall of shame](https://sso.tax/) that some sysadmins use to preemptively filter out software vendors from their purchasing process. So it’s a really shitty idea to advertise crap to the wrong people.
    """
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    date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
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    "@bionicjoey@lemmy.ca"
    "@apotheotic@beehaw.org"
    "@RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml"
    "@lukas@lemmy.haigner.me"
  ]
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2459 …}
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  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700763201 {#2447
    date: 2023-11-23 19:13:21.0 +01:00
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    date: 2023-11-19 16:16:13.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 139999
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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29 DENIED ROLE_ADMIN 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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30 DENIED ROLE_MODERATOR 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details