Redirect 302 redirect from GET @entry_comment_create (78443c)

GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/index.php/m/asklemmy@lemmy.world/t/4842/At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified/oldest

Response
200 OK
IP
216.73.216.97
Profiled on
Token
41396c

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
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 20.01 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
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 0.05 ms (none) 
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Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
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6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
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Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
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null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
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      4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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      ---\n
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      5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
      \n
      Partnered Communities:\n
      ----------------------\n
      \n
      [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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      [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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      [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
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      ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1889 …}
  +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
  +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
  +url: null
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    I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
    \n
    What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
    \n
    What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
    \n
    What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
    \n
    Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Entry {#2412
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  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#264
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#245 …}
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    +title: "asklemmy"
    +description: """
      A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
      -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      **Rules: (interactive)**\n
      ------------------------\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
      \n
      Partnered Communities:\n
      ----------------------\n
      \n
      [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      ---\n
      \n
      ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
      """
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  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1889 …}
  +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
  +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
    \n
    What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
    \n
    What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
    \n
    What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
    \n
    Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
    """
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      ---\n
      \n
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      \n
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      1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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      [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
      \n
      [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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      [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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      Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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    I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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    What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
    \n
    What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
    \n
    Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
    """
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5 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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6 DENIED moderate 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.\n
    \n
    Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
    """
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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    When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.\n
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    Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.\n
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    Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.\n
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      Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
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      Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
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        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
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        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
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      When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.\n
      \n
      Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
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Show voter details
13 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
14 DENIED moderate 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
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        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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    +url: null
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.\n
        \n
        Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
        """
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    Not so much an answer to your question, but I want to push back on the idea that Hamas are in any way about defending the rights of ordinary Palestinians. They are a genocidal hate group who use other Palestinians as pawns in their terrorist atrocities. Think whatever you want about Israel and support whatever solution to the situation you like (unless it’s genocide - don’t support that), but don’t think that Hamas are in any way the good guys.\n
    \n
    If in doubt, just remember - the good guys never murder babies. Hannah are not freedom fighters, they are evil.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
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        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.\n
        \n
        Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
        """
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  +body: """
    Not so much an answer to your question, but I want to push back on the idea that Hamas are in any way about defending the rights of ordinary Palestinians. They are a genocidal hate group who use other Palestinians as pawns in their terrorist atrocities. Think whatever you want about Israel and support whatever solution to the situation you like (unless it’s genocide - don’t support that), but don’t think that Hamas are in any way the good guys.\n
    \n
    If in doubt, just remember - the good guys never murder babies. Hannah are not freedom fighters, they are evil.
    """
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        ---\n
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        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        When widespread violence is already in play, then the use of widespread violence in opposition is justified. It’s not always the right move, though.\n
        \n
        Edit to add that, looking at history, those advocating for large-scale violence in pursuit of a righteous cause are typically more interested in the violence than the cause.
        """
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    +body: "Is it possible to pursue a righteous cause through violence? What if every alternative to violence has been exhausted, if that’s even possible."
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    Not so much an answer to your question, but I want to push back on the idea that Hamas are in any way about defending the rights of ordinary Palestinians. They are a genocidal hate group who use other Palestinians as pawns in their terrorist atrocities. Think whatever you want about Israel and support whatever solution to the situation you like (unless it’s genocide - don’t support that), but don’t think that Hamas are in any way the good guys.\n
    \n
    If in doubt, just remember - the good guys never murder babies. Hannah are not freedom fighters, they are evil.
    """
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        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
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        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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  +body: "People have been coming up with theories about this *forever*, from perspectives and time periods as diverse as Aristotle, St. Augustine, Gandhi, and Trotsky. You put a lot of very difficult questions in your post, but you didn’t put forth a criteria for what “justified” means to you. I think you’re going to need to interrogate that before being able to even think about any of these questions. For example, is violence justified by better outcomes, or by some absolute individual right to fight your oppressor? Is justification a question of morality, legality, tactical value, or something entirely different?"
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21 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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22 DENIED moderate 
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        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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    +url: null
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    +body: "People have been coming up with theories about this *forever*, from perspectives and time periods as diverse as Aristotle, St. Augustine, Gandhi, and Trotsky. You put a lot of very difficult questions in your post, but you didn’t put forth a criteria for what “justified” means to you. I think you’re going to need to interrogate that before being able to even think about any of these questions. For example, is violence justified by better outcomes, or by some absolute individual right to fight your oppressor? Is justification a question of morality, legality, tactical value, or something entirely different?"
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  +body: """
    I know this lies at the core of the question, simply because “justification” is such a complex concept on its own. I asked the question because I can’t for the life of me get even remotely close to an answer because the different theories of morality and justice all are founded in sound logic, even though they contradict one another.\n
    \n
    I want to hear what other people think, if they’ve made up their mind, and why they think what they think.
    """
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
23 DENIED edit 
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      +name: "asklemmy@lemmy.world"
      +title: "asklemmy"
      +description: """
        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
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      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
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      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    +body: "People have been coming up with theories about this *forever*, from perspectives and time periods as diverse as Aristotle, St. Augustine, Gandhi, and Trotsky. You put a lot of very difficult questions in your post, but you didn’t put forth a criteria for what “justified” means to you. I think you’re going to need to interrogate that before being able to even think about any of these questions. For example, is violence justified by better outcomes, or by some absolute individual right to fight your oppressor? Is justification a question of morality, legality, tactical value, or something entirely different?"
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    I know this lies at the core of the question, simply because “justification” is such a complex concept on its own. I asked the question because I can’t for the life of me get even remotely close to an answer because the different theories of morality and justice all are founded in sound logic, even though they contradict one another.\n
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
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    I know this lies at the core of the question, simply because “justification” is such a complex concept on its own. I asked the question because I can’t for the life of me get even remotely close to an answer because the different theories of morality and justice all are founded in sound logic, even though they contradict one another.\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    My understanding of history is that most improvements in living standarts have been bought by violence or the threat of it against the ruling class (yes, i guess you could call me a commie).\n
    \n
    Though i also feel like it is a bit of a dice roll. Kinda like rerolling a dice and hoping you get a higher number. The higher your starting number the higher the chance you end up with a lower number. Does that make sense to anyone or have i completely detached from reality here? :D
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        \n
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        \n
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        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    My understanding of history is that most improvements in living standarts have been bought by violence or the threat of it against the ruling class (yes, i guess you could call me a commie).\n
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    Though i also feel like it is a bit of a dice roll. Kinda like rerolling a dice and hoping you get a higher number. The higher your starting number the higher the chance you end up with a lower number. Does that make sense to anyone or have i completely detached from reality here? :D
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Show voter details
28 DENIED moderate 
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        ---\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    My understanding of history is that most improvements in living standarts have been bought by violence or the threat of it against the ruling class (yes, i guess you could call me a commie).\n
    \n
    Though i also feel like it is a bit of a dice roll. Kinda like rerolling a dice and hoping you get a higher number. The higher your starting number the higher the chance you end up with a lower number. Does that make sense to anyone or have i completely detached from reality here? :D
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Show voter details
29 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
30 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#5011
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      \n
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      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      My understanding of history is that most improvements in living standarts have been bought by violence or the threat of it against the ruling class (yes, i guess you could call me a commie).\n
      \n
      Though i also feel like it is a bit of a dice roll. Kinda like rerolling a dice and hoping you get a higher number. The higher your starting number the higher the chance you end up with a lower number. Does that make sense to anyone or have i completely detached from reality here? :D
      """
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    Not detached. No rights have ever been won under capitalism through a peace movement alone.\n
    \n
    No, not the US Civil Rights Movement.\n
    \n
    No, not the fall off apartheid in S.A.\n
    \n
    No, not even the independence movement in India.\n
    \n
    All has peace movements. All also had organizations that engaged in actions of violence against their oppressors. To ignore that is ahistorical.
    """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
31 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#5011
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      My understanding of history is that most improvements in living standarts have been bought by violence or the threat of it against the ruling class (yes, i guess you could call me a commie).\n
      \n
      Though i also feel like it is a bit of a dice roll. Kinda like rerolling a dice and hoping you get a higher number. The higher your starting number the higher the chance you end up with a lower number. Does that make sense to anyone or have i completely detached from reality here? :D
      """
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  +body: """
    Not detached. No rights have ever been won under capitalism through a peace movement alone.\n
    \n
    No, not the US Civil Rights Movement.\n
    \n
    No, not the fall off apartheid in S.A.\n
    \n
    No, not even the independence movement in India.\n
    \n
    All has peace movements. All also had organizations that engaged in actions of violence against their oppressors. To ignore that is ahistorical.
    """
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    "@RepulsiveDog4415@feddit.de"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
32 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#5011
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  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2412
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1978 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#264
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#245 …}
      +name: "asklemmy@lemmy.world"
      +title: "asklemmy"
      +description: """
        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      My understanding of history is that most improvements in living standarts have been bought by violence or the threat of it against the ruling class (yes, i guess you could call me a commie).\n
      \n
      Though i also feel like it is a bit of a dice roll. Kinda like rerolling a dice and hoping you get a higher number. The higher your starting number the higher the chance you end up with a lower number. Does that make sense to anyone or have i completely detached from reality here? :D
      """
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    Not detached. No rights have ever been won under capitalism through a peace movement alone.\n
    \n
    No, not the US Civil Rights Movement.\n
    \n
    No, not the fall off apartheid in S.A.\n
    \n
    No, not even the independence movement in India.\n
    \n
    All has peace movements. All also had organizations that engaged in actions of violence against their oppressors. To ignore that is ahistorical.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    I have also been thinking about it myself for a while. Although I do not have a clear answer, I do think it is helpful to realize that violence comes in many forms and is almost always present in at least one. Take, for example, the state’s monopoly on violence, usually handled by the police. Whenever there is a differing opinion on how to handle something, one of the parties may ask: What if I just do the thing I want? If one foregoes compromise and dialogue, there is nothing but violence left as a tool to either push forward or back at a cause. Sometimes there may be legitimate reasons for not wanting to compromise on an issue. Sometimes the ones we see “engaging in violence” are those whose needs have been neglected due to their potential for violence deemed lower than those doing the neglect. Violence is a destructive tool that often have better alternatives. However this should not make us default to the position that there are always clear cut answers to who really started the cycle and that someone are morally faulty for engaging with it.\n
    \n
    TL;DR the status quo is usually backed by threats of violence or actual violence. This makes it hard to judge who is at fault for violent actions at any given moment, i.e. it all depends on context.
    """
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        ---\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    I have also been thinking about it myself for a while. Although I do not have a clear answer, I do think it is helpful to realize that violence comes in many forms and is almost always present in at least one. Take, for example, the state’s monopoly on violence, usually handled by the police. Whenever there is a differing opinion on how to handle something, one of the parties may ask: What if I just do the thing I want? If one foregoes compromise and dialogue, there is nothing but violence left as a tool to either push forward or back at a cause. Sometimes there may be legitimate reasons for not wanting to compromise on an issue. Sometimes the ones we see “engaging in violence” are those whose needs have been neglected due to their potential for violence deemed lower than those doing the neglect. Violence is a destructive tool that often have better alternatives. However this should not make us default to the position that there are always clear cut answers to who really started the cycle and that someone are morally faulty for engaging with it.\n
    \n
    TL;DR the status quo is usually backed by threats of violence or actual violence. This makes it hard to judge who is at fault for violent actions at any given moment, i.e. it all depends on context.
    """
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Show voter details
36 DENIED moderate 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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  +image: null
  +parent: null
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  +body: """
    I have also been thinking about it myself for a while. Although I do not have a clear answer, I do think it is helpful to realize that violence comes in many forms and is almost always present in at least one. Take, for example, the state’s monopoly on violence, usually handled by the police. Whenever there is a differing opinion on how to handle something, one of the parties may ask: What if I just do the thing I want? If one foregoes compromise and dialogue, there is nothing but violence left as a tool to either push forward or back at a cause. Sometimes there may be legitimate reasons for not wanting to compromise on an issue. Sometimes the ones we see “engaging in violence” are those whose needs have been neglected due to their potential for violence deemed lower than those doing the neglect. Violence is a destructive tool that often have better alternatives. However this should not make us default to the position that there are always clear cut answers to who really started the cycle and that someone are morally faulty for engaging with it.\n
    \n
    TL;DR the status quo is usually backed by threats of violence or actual violence. This makes it hard to judge who is at fault for violent actions at any given moment, i.e. it all depends on context.
    """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
37 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
38 DENIED moderate 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:48:21.0 +02:00
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    -titleTs: "'justifi':10 'larg':8 'point':3 'scale':9 'violenc':5"
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    +parent: null
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    +body: """
      I have also been thinking about it myself for a while. Although I do not have a clear answer, I do think it is helpful to realize that violence comes in many forms and is almost always present in at least one. Take, for example, the state’s monopoly on violence, usually handled by the police. Whenever there is a differing opinion on how to handle something, one of the parties may ask: What if I just do the thing I want? If one foregoes compromise and dialogue, there is nothing but violence left as a tool to either push forward or back at a cause. Sometimes there may be legitimate reasons for not wanting to compromise on an issue. Sometimes the ones we see “engaging in violence” are those whose needs have been neglected due to their potential for violence deemed lower than those doing the neglect. Violence is a destructive tool that often have better alternatives. However this should not make us default to the position that there are always clear cut answers to who really started the cycle and that someone are morally faulty for engaging with it.\n
      \n
      TL;DR the status quo is usually backed by threats of violence or actual violence. This makes it hard to judge who is at fault for violent actions at any given moment, i.e. it all depends on context.
      """
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      "@BmeBenji@lemm.ee"
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      date: 2023-10-13 00:44:54.0 +02:00
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  }
  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4219}
  +body: "Beautiful summary. I specially like that it exposes the power assimetry that is key to any oppressive relationship."
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    "@BmeBenji@lemm.ee"
    "@Urist@lemmy.ml"
  ]
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    date: 2023-10-15 09:55:37.0 +02:00
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
39 DENIED edit 
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      +name: "asklemmy@lemmy.world"
      +title: "asklemmy"
      +description: """
        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      I have also been thinking about it myself for a while. Although I do not have a clear answer, I do think it is helpful to realize that violence comes in many forms and is almost always present in at least one. Take, for example, the state’s monopoly on violence, usually handled by the police. Whenever there is a differing opinion on how to handle something, one of the parties may ask: What if I just do the thing I want? If one foregoes compromise and dialogue, there is nothing but violence left as a tool to either push forward or back at a cause. Sometimes there may be legitimate reasons for not wanting to compromise on an issue. Sometimes the ones we see “engaging in violence” are those whose needs have been neglected due to their potential for violence deemed lower than those doing the neglect. Violence is a destructive tool that often have better alternatives. However this should not make us default to the position that there are always clear cut answers to who really started the cycle and that someone are morally faulty for engaging with it.\n
      \n
      TL;DR the status quo is usually backed by threats of violence or actual violence. This makes it hard to judge who is at fault for violent actions at any given moment, i.e. it all depends on context.
      """
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  +body: "Beautiful summary. I specially like that it exposes the power assimetry that is key to any oppressive relationship."
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      I have also been thinking about it myself for a while. Although I do not have a clear answer, I do think it is helpful to realize that violence comes in many forms and is almost always present in at least one. Take, for example, the state’s monopoly on violence, usually handled by the police. Whenever there is a differing opinion on how to handle something, one of the parties may ask: What if I just do the thing I want? If one foregoes compromise and dialogue, there is nothing but violence left as a tool to either push forward or back at a cause. Sometimes there may be legitimate reasons for not wanting to compromise on an issue. Sometimes the ones we see “engaging in violence” are those whose needs have been neglected due to their potential for violence deemed lower than those doing the neglect. Violence is a destructive tool that often have better alternatives. However this should not make us default to the position that there are always clear cut answers to who really started the cycle and that someone are morally faulty for engaging with it.\n
      \n
      TL;DR the status quo is usually backed by threats of violence or actual violence. This makes it hard to judge who is at fault for violent actions at any given moment, i.e. it all depends on context.
      """
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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        \n
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        \n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      \n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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48 DENIED moderate 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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49 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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  +body: "Exactly. The numerous rapes and kidnappings are absolutely not called for, nor justified, ever. These are innocent civilians being pulled into a larger conflict. That is the worst part of war - even innocent people suffer, instead of it being a private conflict between whatever groups."
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
51 DENIED edit 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
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      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
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      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    +body: "Exactly. The numerous rapes and kidnappings are absolutely not called for, nor justified, ever. These are innocent civilians being pulled into a larger conflict. That is the worst part of war - even innocent people suffer, instead of it being a private conflict between whatever groups."
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    > Exactly. The numerous rapes and kidnappings are absolutely not called for, nor justified, ever. These are innocent civilians settlers, many of whom are reservists in the oppressors armed forces, being pulled into a larger ongoing and extremely one-sided conflict. That is the worst part of war - even innocent people suffer, instead of it being a private conflict between whatever groups I am forced to acknowledge the ongoing support the first world has provided to an apartheid state and I don’t like being confronted with the consequences of decades of oppression.\n
    \n
    Fixed that for you.
    """
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55 DENIED edit 
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    > Exactly. The numerous rapes and kidnappings are absolutely not called for, nor justified, ever. These are innocent civilians settlers, many of whom are reservists in the oppressors armed forces, being pulled into a larger ongoing and extremely one-sided conflict. That is the worst part of war - even innocent people suffer, instead of it being a private conflict between whatever groups I am forced to acknowledge the ongoing support the first world has provided to an apartheid state and I don’t like being confronted with the consequences of decades of oppression.\n
    \n
    Fixed that for you.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
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    > Exactly. The numerous rapes and kidnappings are absolutely not called for, nor justified, ever. These are innocent civilians settlers, many of whom are reservists in the oppressors armed forces, being pulled into a larger ongoing and extremely one-sided conflict. That is the worst part of war - even innocent people suffer, instead of it being a private conflict between whatever groups I am forced to acknowledge the ongoing support the first world has provided to an apartheid state and I don’t like being confronted with the consequences of decades of oppression.\n
    \n
    Fixed that for you.
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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    Violence can be justified, especially to prevent or answer violence.\n
    \n
    But the target of the violence matters a lot. Violence against people who have nothing to do with the problem is never justified.\n
    \n
    Rebelling against violent police is perfectly justified. Rebelling against a terrorist state that commit atrocities is perfectly justified. All out war against a invader is perfectly justified.\n
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    Killing civilians, murdering civilians and taking them postage is not ever justified. This is either war crime or terrorism.
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        \n
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        \n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      \n
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      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    Violence can be justified, especially to prevent or answer violence.\n
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    Rebelling against violent police is perfectly justified. Rebelling against a terrorist state that commit atrocities is perfectly justified. All out war against a invader is perfectly justified.\n
    \n
    Killing civilians, murdering civilians and taking them postage is not ever justified. This is either war crime or terrorism.
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        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
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      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    Violence can be justified, especially to prevent or answer violence.\n
    \n
    But the target of the violence matters a lot. Violence against people who have nothing to do with the problem is never justified.\n
    \n
    Rebelling against violent police is perfectly justified. Rebelling against a terrorist state that commit atrocities is perfectly justified. All out war against a invader is perfectly justified.\n
    \n
    Killing civilians, murdering civilians and taking them postage is not ever justified. This is either war crime or terrorism.
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61 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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62 DENIED moderate 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      \n
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      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      Violence can be justified, especially to prevent or answer violence.\n
      \n
      But the target of the violence matters a lot. Violence against people who have nothing to do with the problem is never justified.\n
      \n
      Rebelling against violent police is perfectly justified. Rebelling against a terrorist state that commit atrocities is perfectly justified. All out war against a invader is perfectly justified.\n
      \n
      Killing civilians, murdering civilians and taking them postage is not ever justified. This is either war crime or terrorism.
      """
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63 DENIED edit 
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        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      Violence can be justified, especially to prevent or answer violence.\n
      \n
      But the target of the violence matters a lot. Violence against people who have nothing to do with the problem is never justified.\n
      \n
      Rebelling against violent police is perfectly justified. Rebelling against a terrorist state that commit atrocities is perfectly justified. All out war against a invader is perfectly justified.\n
      \n
      Killing civilians, murdering civilians and taking them postage is not ever justified. This is either war crime or terrorism.
      """
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Show voter details
64 DENIED moderate 
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      +description: """
        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      Violence can be justified, especially to prevent or answer violence.\n
      \n
      But the target of the violence matters a lot. Violence against people who have nothing to do with the problem is never justified.\n
      \n
      Rebelling against violent police is perfectly justified. Rebelling against a terrorist state that commit atrocities is perfectly justified. All out war against a invader is perfectly justified.\n
      \n
      Killing civilians, murdering civilians and taking them postage is not ever justified. This is either war crime or terrorism.
      """
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  +body: "Sure. Just keep in mind that settlers aren’t random innocent civilians."
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    It’s not ever justified.\n
    \n
    Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
    \n
    It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
    \n
    Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
    \n
    But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
    \n
    And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
    \n
    So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
    \n
    And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
    """
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        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    It’s not ever justified.\n
    \n
    Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
    \n
    It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
    \n
    Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
    \n
    But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
    \n
    And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
    \n
    So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
    \n
    And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
    """
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        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        ---\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
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    It’s not ever justified.\n
    \n
    Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
    \n
    It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
    \n
    Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
    \n
    But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
    \n
    And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
    \n
    So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
    \n
    And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
    """
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      It’s not ever justified.\n
      \n
      Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
      \n
      It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
      \n
      Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
      \n
      But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
      \n
      And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
      \n
      So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
      \n
      And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
      """
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  +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      It’s not ever justified.\n
      \n
      Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
      \n
      It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
      \n
      Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
      \n
      But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
      \n
      And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
      \n
      So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
      \n
      And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
      """
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  +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      It’s not ever justified.\n
      \n
      Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
      \n
      It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
      \n
      Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
      \n
      But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
      \n
      And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
      \n
      So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
      \n
      And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
      """
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  +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      +body: """
        It’s not ever justified.\n
        \n
        Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
        \n
        It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
        \n
        Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
        \n
        But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
        \n
        And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
        \n
        So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
        \n
        And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
        """
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    +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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  +body: """
    There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
    \n
    The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
    \n
    The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
    """
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75 DENIED edit 
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        ---\n
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        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        It’s not ever justified.\n
        \n
        Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
        \n
        It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
        \n
        Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
        \n
        But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
        \n
        And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
        \n
        So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
        \n
        And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
        """
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    +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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  +body: """
    There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
    \n
    The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
    \n
    The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
    """
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        It’s not ever justified.\n
        \n
        Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
        \n
        It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
        \n
        Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
        \n
        But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
        \n
        And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
        \n
        So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
        \n
        And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
        """
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    +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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    There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
    \n
    The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
    \n
    The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        +body: """
          It’s not ever justified.\n
          \n
          Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
          \n
          It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
          \n
          Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
          \n
          But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
          \n
          And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
          \n
          So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
          \n
          And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
          """
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      +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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    +body: """
      There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
      \n
      The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
      \n
      The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
      """
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    Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
    \n
    Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
    \n
    Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
    """
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79 DENIED edit 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          It’s not ever justified.\n
          \n
          Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
          \n
          It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
          \n
          Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
          \n
          But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
          \n
          And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
          \n
          So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
          \n
          And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
          """
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      +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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    +body: """
      There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
      \n
      The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
      \n
      The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
      """
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    Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
    \n
    Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
    \n
    Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
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        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          It’s not ever justified.\n
          \n
          Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
          \n
          It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
          \n
          Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
          \n
          But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
          \n
          And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
          \n
          So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
          \n
          And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
          """
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      +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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      There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
      \n
      The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
      \n
      The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
      """
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    Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
    \n
    Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
    \n
    Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
    """
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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            It’s not ever justified.\n
            \n
            Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
            \n
            It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
            \n
            Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
            \n
            But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
            \n
            And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
            \n
            So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
            \n
            And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
            """
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        +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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      +body: """
        There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
        \n
        The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
        \n
        The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
        """
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      Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
      \n
      Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
      \n
      Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
      """
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  +body: """
    I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
    \n
    Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
    \n
    Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
    \n
    So now we’ve got:\n
    \n
    Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
    \n
    This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
    \n
    We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        ---\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        Partnered Communities:\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          +body: """
            It’s not ever justified.\n
            \n
            Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
            \n
            It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
            \n
            Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
            \n
            But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
            \n
            And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
            \n
            So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
            \n
            And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
            """
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        +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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      +body: """
        There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
        \n
        The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
        \n
        The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
        """
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      Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
      \n
      Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
      \n
      Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
      """
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  +body: """
    I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
    \n
    Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
    \n
    Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
    \n
    So now we’ve got:\n
    \n
    Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
    \n
    This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
    \n
    We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
    """
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          +body: """
            It’s not ever justified.\n
            \n
            Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
            \n
            It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
            \n
            Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
            \n
            But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
            \n
            And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
            \n
            So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
            \n
            And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
            """
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        +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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        There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
        \n
        The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
        \n
        The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
        """
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      Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
      \n
      Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
      \n
      Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
      """
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  +body: """
    I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
    \n
    Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
    \n
    Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
    \n
    So now we’ve got:\n
    \n
    Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
    \n
    This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
    \n
    We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
    """
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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            +body: """
              It’s not ever justified.\n
              \n
              Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
              \n
              It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
              \n
              Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
              \n
              But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
              \n
              And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
              \n
              So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
              \n
              And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
              """
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          +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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        +body: """
          There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
          \n
          The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
          \n
          The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
          """
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        Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
        \n
        Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
        \n
        Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
        """
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    +body: """
      I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
      \n
      Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
      \n
      Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
      \n
      So now we’ve got:\n
      \n
      Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
      \n
      This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
      \n
      We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
      """
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  +body: """
    You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
    \n
    The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
    \n
    If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
    \n
    My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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              It’s not ever justified.\n
              \n
              Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
              \n
              It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
              \n
              Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
              \n
              But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
              \n
              And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
              \n
              So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
              \n
              And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
              """
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          +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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        +body: """
          There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
          \n
          The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
          \n
          The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
          """
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        Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
        \n
        Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
        \n
        Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
        """
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    +body: """
      I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
      \n
      Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
      \n
      Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
      \n
      So now we’ve got:\n
      \n
      Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
      \n
      This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
      \n
      We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
      """
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    You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
    \n
    The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
    \n
    If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
    \n
    My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
    """
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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              It’s not ever justified.\n
              \n
              Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
              \n
              It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
              \n
              Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
              \n
              But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
              \n
              And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
              \n
              So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
              \n
              And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
              """
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          +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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          There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
          \n
          The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
          \n
          The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
          """
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        Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
        \n
        Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
        \n
        Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
        """
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    +body: """
      I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
      \n
      Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
      \n
      Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
      \n
      So now we’ve got:\n
      \n
      Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
      \n
      This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
      \n
      We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
      """
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  +body: """
    You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
    \n
    The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
    \n
    If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
    \n
    My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
    """
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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              +body: """
                It’s not ever justified.\n
                \n
                Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                \n
                It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                \n
                Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                \n
                But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                \n
                And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                \n
                So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                \n
                And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                """
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            +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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          +body: """
            There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
            \n
            The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
            \n
            The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
            """
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        +body: """
          Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
          \n
          Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
          \n
          Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
          """
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      +body: """
        I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
        \n
        Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
        \n
        Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
        \n
        So now we’ve got:\n
        \n
        Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
        \n
        This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
        \n
        We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
        """
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    +body: """
      You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
      \n
      The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
      \n
      If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
      \n
      My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
      """
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  +body: """
    I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
    \n
    I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
    \n
    I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
    \n
    I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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              +body: """
                It’s not ever justified.\n
                \n
                Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                \n
                It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                \n
                Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                \n
                But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                \n
                And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                \n
                So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                \n
                And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                """
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            +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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          +body: """
            There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
            \n
            The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
            \n
            The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
            """
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        +body: """
          Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
          \n
          Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
          \n
          Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
          """
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      +body: """
        I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
        \n
        Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
        \n
        Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
        \n
        So now we’ve got:\n
        \n
        Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
        \n
        This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
        \n
        We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
        """
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      You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
      \n
      The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
      \n
      If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
      \n
      My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
      """
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    I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
    \n
    I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
    \n
    I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
    \n
    I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
    """
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92 DENIED moderate 
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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              +body: """
                It’s not ever justified.\n
                \n
                Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                \n
                It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                \n
                Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                \n
                But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                \n
                And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                \n
                So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                \n
                And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                """
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            +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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          +body: """
            There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
            \n
            The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
            \n
            The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
            """
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        +body: """
          Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
          \n
          Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
          \n
          Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
          """
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      +body: """
        I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
        \n
        Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
        \n
        Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
        \n
        So now we’ve got:\n
        \n
        Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
        \n
        This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
        \n
        We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
        """
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      You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
      \n
      The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
      \n
      If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
      \n
      My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
      """
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    I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
    \n
    I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
    \n
    I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
    \n
    I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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                +body: """
                  It’s not ever justified.\n
                  \n
                  Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                  \n
                  It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                  \n
                  Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                  \n
                  But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                  \n
                  And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                  \n
                  So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                  \n
                  And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                  """
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              +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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            +body: """
              There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
              \n
              The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
              \n
              The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
              """
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            Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
            \n
            Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
            \n
            Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
            """
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            date: 2023-10-14 01:09:48.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
          \n
          Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
          \n
          Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
          \n
          So now we’ve got:\n
          \n
          Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
          \n
          This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
          \n
          We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
          """
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        You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
        \n
        The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
        \n
        If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
        \n
        My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
        """
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      I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
      \n
      I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
      \n
      I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
      \n
      I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
      """
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  +body: "Do you include the 1804 massacres of the French with the mass rape of women and killing of children by Dessalines which followed the Haitian revolt in that intrinsic good?"
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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                +body: """
                  It’s not ever justified.\n
                  \n
                  Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                  \n
                  It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                  \n
                  Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                  \n
                  But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                  \n
                  And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                  \n
                  So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                  \n
                  And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                  """
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              +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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            +body: """
              There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
              \n
              The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
              \n
              The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
              """
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          +body: """
            Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
            \n
            Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
            \n
            Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
            """
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        +body: """
          I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
          \n
          Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
          \n
          Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
          \n
          So now we’ve got:\n
          \n
          Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
          \n
          This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
          \n
          We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
          """
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        You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
        \n
        The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
        \n
        If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
        \n
        My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
        """
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      I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
      \n
      I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
      \n
      I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
      \n
      I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
      """
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  +body: "Do you include the 1804 massacres of the French with the mass rape of women and killing of children by Dessalines which followed the Haitian revolt in that intrinsic good?"
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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                +body: """
                  It’s not ever justified.\n
                  \n
                  Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                  \n
                  It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                  \n
                  Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                  \n
                  But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                  \n
                  And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                  \n
                  So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                  \n
                  And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                  """
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              +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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            +body: """
              There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
              \n
              The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
              \n
              The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
              """
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          +body: """
            Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
            \n
            Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
            \n
            Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
            """
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        +body: """
          I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
          \n
          Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
          \n
          Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
          \n
          So now we’ve got:\n
          \n
          Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
          \n
          This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
          \n
          We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
          """
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      +body: """
        You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
        \n
        The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
        \n
        If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
        \n
        My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
        """
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    +body: """
      I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
      \n
      I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
      \n
      I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
      \n
      I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
      """
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  +body: "Do you include the 1804 massacres of the French with the mass rape of women and killing of children by Dessalines which followed the Haitian revolt in that intrinsic good?"
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}
 
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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                  +body: """
                    It’s not ever justified.\n
                    \n
                    Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                    \n
                    It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                    \n
                    Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                    \n
                    But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                    \n
                    And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                    \n
                    So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                    \n
                    And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                    """
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                +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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              +body: """
                There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
                \n
                The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
                \n
                The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
                """
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            +body: """
              Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
              \n
              Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
              \n
              Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
              """
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          +body: """
            I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
            \n
            Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
            \n
            Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
            \n
            So now we’ve got:\n
            \n
            Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
            \n
            This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
            \n
            We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
            """
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        +body: """
          You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
          \n
          The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
          \n
          If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
          \n
          My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
          """
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      +body: """
        I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
        \n
        I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
        \n
        I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
        \n
        I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
        """
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    +body: "Do you include the 1804 massacres of the French with the mass rape of women and killing of children by Dessalines which followed the Haitian revolt in that intrinsic good?"
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  +body: "I find it hard to consider that as part of the liberation since it happened after independence. Looks more like state violence aimed at a minority to me."
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        ---\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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                  +body: """
                    It’s not ever justified.\n
                    \n
                    Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                    \n
                    It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                    \n
                    Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                    \n
                    But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                    \n
                    And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                    \n
                    So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                    \n
                    And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                    """
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                +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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              +body: """
                There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
                \n
                The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
                \n
                The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
                """
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                date: 2023-10-13 16:59:15.0 +02:00
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            +body: """
              Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
              \n
              Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
              \n
              Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
              """
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          +body: """
            I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
            \n
            Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
            \n
            Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
            \n
            So now we’ve got:\n
            \n
            Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
            \n
            This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
            \n
            We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
            """
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          You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
          \n
          The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
          \n
          If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
          \n
          My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
          """
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        I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
        \n
        I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
        \n
        I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
        \n
        I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
        """
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    +body: "Do you include the 1804 massacres of the French with the mass rape of women and killing of children by Dessalines which followed the Haitian revolt in that intrinsic good?"
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  +body: "I find it hard to consider that as part of the liberation since it happened after independence. Looks more like state violence aimed at a minority to me."
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
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        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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                  +body: """
                    It’s not ever justified.\n
                    \n
                    Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
                    \n
                    It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
                    \n
                    Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
                    \n
                    But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
                    \n
                    And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
                    \n
                    So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
                    \n
                    And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
                    """
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                +body: "Wow that is extremely well written. Here I was going to say only in self defense but I think you changed my mind. The nuance of necessity and justification is interesting and one I will have to think about."
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              +body: """
                There is no nuance. If it is necessary, it is justified.\n
                \n
                The only nuance that exists is for acts you can create justifications for that aren’t necessary.\n
                \n
                The only argument to be had is whether an action is necessary or not. If not necessary, then justification is required. Otherwise, they’re functionally synonymous.
                """
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                date: 2023-10-13 16:56:43.0 +02:00
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            }
            +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4439}
            +body: """
              Bob needed a new heart to survive, but the waiting list was too long.\n
              \n
              Bob killed his next door neighbor Jane, cutting out her heart and taking it to a back alley surgeon in order to survive.\n
              \n
              Bob was justified in doing this, because whatever is necessary is justified.
              """
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              date: 2023-10-14 01:09:48.0 +02:00
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          +body: """
            I mean that is sort of the definition of justified but it’s being misused here, it just means having a good reason. Everyone is ignoring how subjective it is though. Bob may consider his life above others, so for him staying alive is a good enough reason to commit murder. Jane and a jury are very likely to disagree.\n
            \n
            Different language needs to be used I think to avoid the issues people have with the concept of violent resistance.\n
            \n
            Peace isn’t an option because injustice still happens under peace time. Liberation is a better solution for the oppressed.\n
            \n
            So now we’ve got:\n
            \n
            Liberation of oppressed peoples from oppression is always justified.\n
            \n
            This focuses more on the end goal than the action that resistance implies. Liberation can still involve violent resistance and that’s okay. You can be on the side of righteousness and still do what is morally wrong, this is true of all movements.\n
            \n
            We have to agree that liberation from oppression is always morally good and we have to apply it to all cases. So if we don’t look at the Palestinian struggle the same way we’d look at indigenous issues in north America or apartheid SA, we’d be hypocrites.
            """
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        +body: """
          You’re close to the crux of the issue.\n
          \n
          The real issue at hand is whether or not we’re talking about moral relativism or absolutism.\n
          \n
          If we are endorsing relativism, then all actions have a relative frame of reference by which they are justified (i.e. Bob’s killing Jane).\n
          \n
          My stance is that in terms of absolutism, there is no such thing as justified mass violence, and that while it is certainly possible for mass violence to be a lesser evil absolutely, and thus easily argued as a moral good relative to the alternative, that ultimately it remains an evil under all circumstances objectively, and at best can be a lesser evil regarded absolutely.
          """
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      +body: """
        I would have to disagree on the absolutism bit.\n
        \n
        I would consider that the Haitian slave rebellion or Warsaw ghetto uprisings were intrinsically good.\n
        \n
        I would wish to see liberation of oppressed peoples be a universal law. I would wish for this to be applied to all and I wish for everyone to act on this.\n
        \n
        I believe the above fits under Kantian ethics.
        """
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    +body: "Do you include the 1804 massacres of the French with the mass rape of women and killing of children by Dessalines which followed the Haitian revolt in that intrinsic good?"
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  +body: "I find it hard to consider that as part of the liberation since it happened after independence. Looks more like state violence aimed at a minority to me."
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        Partnered Communities:\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      It’s not ever justified.\n
      \n
      Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
      \n
      It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
      \n
      Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
      \n
      But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
      \n
      And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
      \n
      So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
      \n
      And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
      """
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    You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
    \n
    However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
    \n
    While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
    \n
    As such, your argument crumbles.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        \n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      It’s not ever justified.\n
      \n
      Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
      \n
      It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
      \n
      Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
      \n
      But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
      \n
      And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
      \n
      So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
      \n
      And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
      """
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    You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
    \n
    However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
    \n
    While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
    \n
    As such, your argument crumbles.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        \n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      It’s not ever justified.\n
      \n
      Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
      \n
      It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
      \n
      Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
      \n
      But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
      \n
      And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
      \n
      So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
      \n
      And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
      """
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    You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
    \n
    However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
    \n
    While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
    \n
    As such, your argument crumbles.
    """
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106 DENIED moderate 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        It’s not ever justified.\n
        \n
        Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
        \n
        It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
        \n
        Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
        \n
        But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
        \n
        And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
        \n
        So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
        \n
        And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
        """
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      You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
      \n
      However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
      \n
      While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
      \n
      As such, your argument crumbles.
      """
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    If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
    \n
    It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
    \n
    You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
    \n
    I don’t agree.\n
    \n
    If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
    \n
    But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
    \n
    Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
    \n
    There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
    \n
    I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
    """
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        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        It’s not ever justified.\n
        \n
        Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
        \n
        It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
        \n
        Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
        \n
        But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
        \n
        And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
        \n
        So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
        \n
        And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
        """
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      You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
      \n
      However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
      \n
      While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
      \n
      As such, your argument crumbles.
      """
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  +body: """
    If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
    \n
    It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
    \n
    You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
    \n
    I don’t agree.\n
    \n
    If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
    \n
    But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
    \n
    Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
    \n
    There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
    \n
    I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        ---\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        It’s not ever justified.\n
        \n
        Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
        \n
        It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
        \n
        Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
        \n
        But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
        \n
        And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
        \n
        So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
        \n
        And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
        """
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      You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
      \n
      However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
      \n
      While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
      \n
      As such, your argument crumbles.
      """
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  +body: """
    If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
    \n
    It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
    \n
    You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
    \n
    I don’t agree.\n
    \n
    If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
    \n
    But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
    \n
    Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
    \n
    There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
    \n
    I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
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        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        ---\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          It’s not ever justified.\n
          \n
          Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
          \n
          It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
          \n
          Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
          \n
          But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
          \n
          And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
          \n
          So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
          \n
          And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
          """
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        You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
        \n
        However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
        \n
        While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
        \n
        As such, your argument crumbles.
        """
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      If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
      \n
      It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
      \n
      You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
      \n
      I don’t agree.\n
      \n
      If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
      \n
      But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
      \n
      Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
      \n
      There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
      \n
      I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
      """
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    Okay cool, I’ll go back in time and tell everyone to roll over to the Nazis, that Apartheid S.A. can stay, that we shouldn’t have fought the Civil War in the U.S. and freed the slaves.\n
    \n
    Your circle jerk about not causing bloodshed would be cool if the world would get on board with BDS of Israel to stop their Apartheid. Given it hasn’t, it’s NECESSARY for Palestine to work to free itself, by any means necessary.\n
    \n
    Tl;Dr, fuck off with your ahistorical moralizing.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        Partnered Communities:\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          It’s not ever justified.\n
          \n
          Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
          \n
          It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
          \n
          Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
          \n
          But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
          \n
          And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
          \n
          So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
          \n
          And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
          """
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        You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
        \n
        However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
        \n
        While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
        \n
        As such, your argument crumbles.
        """
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      If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
      \n
      It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
      \n
      You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
      \n
      I don’t agree.\n
      \n
      If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
      \n
      But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
      \n
      Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
      \n
      There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
      \n
      I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
      """
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    Okay cool, I’ll go back in time and tell everyone to roll over to the Nazis, that Apartheid S.A. can stay, that we shouldn’t have fought the Civil War in the U.S. and freed the slaves.\n
    \n
    Your circle jerk about not causing bloodshed would be cool if the world would get on board with BDS of Israel to stop their Apartheid. Given it hasn’t, it’s NECESSARY for Palestine to work to free itself, by any means necessary.\n
    \n
    Tl;Dr, fuck off with your ahistorical moralizing.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
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        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        ---\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        Partnered Communities:\n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        +body: """
          It’s not ever justified.\n
          \n
          Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
          \n
          It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
          \n
          Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
          \n
          But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
          \n
          And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
          \n
          So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
          \n
          And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
          """
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        You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
        \n
        However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
        \n
        While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
        \n
        As such, your argument crumbles.
        """
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      If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
      \n
      It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
      \n
      You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
      \n
      I don’t agree.\n
      \n
      If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
      \n
      But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
      \n
      Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
      \n
      There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
      \n
      I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
      """
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  +body: """
    Okay cool, I’ll go back in time and tell everyone to roll over to the Nazis, that Apartheid S.A. can stay, that we shouldn’t have fought the Civil War in the U.S. and freed the slaves.\n
    \n
    Your circle jerk about not causing bloodshed would be cool if the world would get on board with BDS of Israel to stop their Apartheid. Given it hasn’t, it’s NECESSARY for Palestine to work to free itself, by any means necessary.\n
    \n
    Tl;Dr, fuck off with your ahistorical moralizing.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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        +body: """
          It’s not ever justified.\n
          \n
          Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
          \n
          It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
          \n
          Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
          \n
          But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
          \n
          And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
          \n
          So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
          \n
          And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
          """
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        You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
        \n
        However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
        \n
        While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
        \n
        As such, your argument crumbles.
        """
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      If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
      \n
      It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
      \n
      You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
      \n
      I don’t agree.\n
      \n
      If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
      \n
      But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
      \n
      Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
      \n
      There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
      \n
      I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
      """
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    Okay cool, I’ll go back in time and tell everyone to roll over to the Nazis, that Apartheid S.A. can stay, that we shouldn’t have fought the Civil War in the U.S. and freed the slaves.\n
    \n
    Your circle jerk about not causing bloodshed would be cool if the world would get on board with BDS of Israel to stop their Apartheid. Given it hasn’t, it’s NECESSARY for Palestine to work to free itself, by any means necessary.\n
    \n
    Tl;Dr, fuck off with your ahistorical moralizing.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          +body: """
            It’s not ever justified.\n
            \n
            Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
            \n
            It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
            \n
            Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
            \n
            But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
            \n
            And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
            \n
            So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
            \n
            And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
            """
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          You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
          \n
          However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
          \n
          While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
          \n
          As such, your argument crumbles.
          """
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        If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
        \n
        It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
        \n
        You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
        \n
        I don’t agree.\n
        \n
        If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
        \n
        But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
        \n
        Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
        \n
        There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
        \n
        I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
        """
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      Okay cool, I’ll go back in time and tell everyone to roll over to the Nazis, that Apartheid S.A. can stay, that we shouldn’t have fought the Civil War in the U.S. and freed the slaves.\n
      \n
      Your circle jerk about not causing bloodshed would be cool if the world would get on board with BDS of Israel to stop their Apartheid. Given it hasn’t, it’s NECESSARY for Palestine to work to free itself, by any means necessary.\n
      \n
      Tl;Dr, fuck off with your ahistorical moralizing.
      """
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    Ok, let’s stay within the confines of individual self-preservation.\n
    \n
    If it is necessary for you to have a new organ to survive, but not enough are available through organ donation programs, does the fact that it is necessary to your survival mean that acquiring an organ from an unwilling donor (directly or though black market proxy) is a justified action?\n
    \n
    How about a murderer that killed someone and left witnesses? If they are caught, it would mean they are sentenced to death. So it is necessary for their continued self-preservation to minimize the chances of being caught. Does that make their murder of the witnesses of their earlier crime justified?\n
    \n
    Your pithy take on necessity = justification is BS at even a cursory examination.\n
    \n
    I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have freed the slaves. Just that neither the Union nor the Confederate killing of each other was justified. I’m not saying that the US shouldn’t have fought in WW2. Just that bombing Hiroshima wasn’t justified.\n
    \n
    You are the one conflating necessity with justification. And as such you seem to not be able to wrap your head around that while I’m saying mass violence is never justified, that doesn’t mean I’m saying the relative necessity for admirable goals means it was in the best interest of the US to have had a show of overwhelming force at the end of the WW2 conflict in mind of Stalin’s USSR post-war or that Sherman was wise to burn crops as he marched through the South to reduce supplies for Confederate opposition.\n
    \n
    Edit: Also, thank you for making my point about how the notion of justified violence is a slippery slope that can easily end up justifying atrocities by relativist moralizing there with the whole “by any means necessary.”
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          +body: """
            It’s not ever justified.\n
            \n
            Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
            \n
            It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
            \n
            Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
            \n
            But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
            \n
            And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
            \n
            So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
            \n
            And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
            """
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          You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
          \n
          However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
          \n
          While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
          \n
          As such, your argument crumbles.
          """
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        If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
        \n
        It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
        \n
        You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
        \n
        I don’t agree.\n
        \n
        If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
        \n
        But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
        \n
        Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
        \n
        There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
        \n
        I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
        """
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      Okay cool, I’ll go back in time and tell everyone to roll over to the Nazis, that Apartheid S.A. can stay, that we shouldn’t have fought the Civil War in the U.S. and freed the slaves.\n
      \n
      Your circle jerk about not causing bloodshed would be cool if the world would get on board with BDS of Israel to stop their Apartheid. Given it hasn’t, it’s NECESSARY for Palestine to work to free itself, by any means necessary.\n
      \n
      Tl;Dr, fuck off with your ahistorical moralizing.
      """
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    Ok, let’s stay within the confines of individual self-preservation.\n
    \n
    If it is necessary for you to have a new organ to survive, but not enough are available through organ donation programs, does the fact that it is necessary to your survival mean that acquiring an organ from an unwilling donor (directly or though black market proxy) is a justified action?\n
    \n
    How about a murderer that killed someone and left witnesses? If they are caught, it would mean they are sentenced to death. So it is necessary for their continued self-preservation to minimize the chances of being caught. Does that make their murder of the witnesses of their earlier crime justified?\n
    \n
    Your pithy take on necessity = justification is BS at even a cursory examination.\n
    \n
    I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have freed the slaves. Just that neither the Union nor the Confederate killing of each other was justified. I’m not saying that the US shouldn’t have fought in WW2. Just that bombing Hiroshima wasn’t justified.\n
    \n
    You are the one conflating necessity with justification. And as such you seem to not be able to wrap your head around that while I’m saying mass violence is never justified, that doesn’t mean I’m saying the relative necessity for admirable goals means it was in the best interest of the US to have had a show of overwhelming force at the end of the WW2 conflict in mind of Stalin’s USSR post-war or that Sherman was wise to burn crops as he marched through the South to reduce supplies for Confederate opposition.\n
    \n
    Edit: Also, thank you for making my point about how the notion of justified violence is a slippery slope that can easily end up justifying atrocities by relativist moralizing there with the whole “by any means necessary.”
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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          +body: """
            It’s not ever justified.\n
            \n
            Which is kind of the point. If it’s a last resort of self-preservation or to prevent an unacceptable alternative outcome, inherent to the choice to engage or endorse large scale violence is the underlying reality of choosing between two evils.\n
            \n
            It’s not noble or good. It’s never justified.\n
            \n
            Yet in certain situations it may be regarded as necessary.\n
            \n
            But a necessary evil is not made good by virtue of its necessity.\n
            \n
            And attempts to undermine the absolutism by which large scale violence is inherently unjustifiable, to turn atrocity into Micky Mouse heroism or patriotism, ultimately creates a moral tapestry wherein all atrocities can thus be justified by the relative perspectives of what is good.\n
            \n
            So no, there is no measure by which large scale violence transforms into justifiable behavior, under any circumstances.\n
            \n
            And a wise society would always regard its adoption as a stain upon its history, irrespective of what other horrors it was brought in to clear out.
            """
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          You seem to think necessary !-> justified.\n
          \n
          However, if something is necessary, it is justified.\n
          \n
          While you may quibble, “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations, but it isn’t justified”, this part “it’s necessary to defend myself in life or death situations” IS the justification of the action. It’s justified definitionally.\n
          \n
          As such, your argument crumbles.
          """
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        If you want a diamond necklace that you can’t afford, it is necessary to steal it in order to have it.\n
        \n
        It is not justified to steal it simply because it was necessary to meet your goals.\n
        \n
        You are implicitly assuming that the necessity of self-preservation equates justification on the premise that self-preservation is a just result.\n
        \n
        I don’t agree.\n
        \n
        If two soldiers are fighting for their lives against each other, it may be necessary for each to survive to kill the other.\n
        \n
        But the family of the one that dies may not see their loved one’s death as justified even if the family of the one that survived sees it that way.\n
        \n
        Your self-preservation is worthless to me, and thus justifies nothing. My own self-preservation is literally worth everything to me - and yet if still does not *justify* my taking everything from you, even if *I* deem it necessary to achieve my own desires and goals, any more than my desire for a necklace I cannot afford justifies its theft.\n
        \n
        There is a distinction between things like stealing bread to save a life where a necessary action is justified by the good that comes out of it and stealing bread to throw away in order to achieve a thrill. Both are necessary to their goals, but one has a goal that justifies the necessary action while the other does not.\n
        \n
        I’m saying that there is no goal or good in existence that justifies the inherit evil of mass violence, even if there are a myriad of ways in which mass violence might be necessary to one’s goals, with those ranging from ethnic cleansing to fighting tyranny.
        """
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      Okay cool, I’ll go back in time and tell everyone to roll over to the Nazis, that Apartheid S.A. can stay, that we shouldn’t have fought the Civil War in the U.S. and freed the slaves.\n
      \n
      Your circle jerk about not causing bloodshed would be cool if the world would get on board with BDS of Israel to stop their Apartheid. Given it hasn’t, it’s NECESSARY for Palestine to work to free itself, by any means necessary.\n
      \n
      Tl;Dr, fuck off with your ahistorical moralizing.
      """
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      date: 2023-10-14 00:49:00.0 +02:00
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    Ok, let’s stay within the confines of individual self-preservation.\n
    \n
    If it is necessary for you to have a new organ to survive, but not enough are available through organ donation programs, does the fact that it is necessary to your survival mean that acquiring an organ from an unwilling donor (directly or though black market proxy) is a justified action?\n
    \n
    How about a murderer that killed someone and left witnesses? If they are caught, it would mean they are sentenced to death. So it is necessary for their continued self-preservation to minimize the chances of being caught. Does that make their murder of the witnesses of their earlier crime justified?\n
    \n
    Your pithy take on necessity = justification is BS at even a cursory examination.\n
    \n
    I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have freed the slaves. Just that neither the Union nor the Confederate killing of each other was justified. I’m not saying that the US shouldn’t have fought in WW2. Just that bombing Hiroshima wasn’t justified.\n
    \n
    You are the one conflating necessity with justification. And as such you seem to not be able to wrap your head around that while I’m saying mass violence is never justified, that doesn’t mean I’m saying the relative necessity for admirable goals means it was in the best interest of the US to have had a show of overwhelming force at the end of the WW2 conflict in mind of Stalin’s USSR post-war or that Sherman was wise to burn crops as he marched through the South to reduce supplies for Confederate opposition.\n
    \n
    Edit: Also, thank you for making my point about how the notion of justified violence is a slippery slope that can easily end up justifying atrocities by relativist moralizing there with the whole “by any means necessary.”
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
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        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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    +url: null
    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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  +body: "When delusional trust fund kids from Just Stop Oil prevent you from going to work/school …"
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
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        ------------------------\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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  +body: "Violence against an oppressor is always justified. Why does your gov support the oppressor? Because they’re an oppressor themselves and need to support the narrative of being an oppressor being fine, so they don’t get revolted against."
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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  +body: "Hmmm I’m going to re-watch Andor and then read some books about the American Revolution and get back with you."
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        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
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        \n
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        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
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        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
    \n
    Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
    \n
    Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
    """
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
    \n
    Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
    """
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        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
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        Partnered Communities:\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
      \n
      Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
      """
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  +body: "It’s never justified, but it also feels gross to join this chorus of condemnation against Hamas, when it’s so much louder and widespread than any condemnation of official Israeli policies which have had the same or worse material effect for decades."
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
135 DENIED edit 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
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        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
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        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
      \n
      Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
      """
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  +body: "It’s never justified, but it also feels gross to join this chorus of condemnation against Hamas, when it’s so much louder and widespread than any condemnation of official Israeli policies which have had the same or worse material effect for decades."
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        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
      \n
      Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
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  +body: "It’s never justified, but it also feels gross to join this chorus of condemnation against Hamas, when it’s so much louder and widespread than any condemnation of official Israeli policies which have had the same or worse material effect for decades."
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        ---\n
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
      \n
      Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
      """
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  +body: "I wanna see you try dialoguing with Putin. Do you think everyone is shy and nobody ever tried??"
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}
 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
139 DENIED edit 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
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    +url: null
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
      \n
      Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
      """
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  +body: "I wanna see you try dialoguing with Putin. Do you think everyone is shy and nobody ever tried??"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
140 DENIED moderate 
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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    +slug: "At-what-point-is-violence-on-a-large-scale-justified"
    +title: "At what point is violence on a large scale justified?"
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    +body: """
      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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      one thing is for sure; it is NEVER justified to attack and use unarmed unengaged civilians to further narratives and motivations. It only strengthens the occupiers stance to ignore military targets for soft ones instead. The ends NEVER justify the means, PERIOD.\n
      \n
      Reminds me of the TNG episode The High Ground, there is always a way forward that doesn’t include mass casualties, it’s just humans are too fucking shit to try.
      """
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  +body: "I wanna see you try dialoguing with Putin. Do you think everyone is shy and nobody ever tried??"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
141 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
142 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4807
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      +name: "asklemmy@lemmy.world"
      +title: "asklemmy"
      +description: """
        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
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      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    Depends on what kind of mass violence you’re thinking of.\n
    \n
    The degree to which you can control its extent, direction, and collateral damage is the degree to which you can justify it.\n
    \n
    An organized millitary march to capture vital infrastructure and establish defensible positions in preparation for retaliation and most likely war, quite easily justified.\n
    \n
    An unhinged hate fueled massacre and mass raping to the point of literally smashing open panic room vaults to drag out more victims to murder and rape, well at least Lemmygrad and Hexbear will still have your back!
    """
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    Depends on what kind of mass violence you’re thinking of.\n
    \n
    The degree to which you can control its extent, direction, and collateral damage is the degree to which you can justify it.\n
    \n
    An organized millitary march to capture vital infrastructure and establish defensible positions in preparation for retaliation and most likely war, quite easily justified.\n
    \n
    An unhinged hate fueled massacre and mass raping to the point of literally smashing open panic room vaults to drag out more victims to murder and rape, well at least Lemmygrad and Hexbear will still have your back!
    """
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144 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4807
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        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    Depends on what kind of mass violence you’re thinking of.\n
    \n
    The degree to which you can control its extent, direction, and collateral damage is the degree to which you can justify it.\n
    \n
    An organized millitary march to capture vital infrastructure and establish defensible positions in preparation for retaliation and most likely war, quite easily justified.\n
    \n
    An unhinged hate fueled massacre and mass raping to the point of literally smashing open panic room vaults to drag out more victims to murder and rape, well at least Lemmygrad and Hexbear will still have your back!
    """
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        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        ---\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
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      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
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        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        \n
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        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
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        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
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        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
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        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
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        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
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        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
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        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
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        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
152 DENIED moderate 
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      +title: "asklemmy"
      +description: """
        A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
        -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        **Rules: (interactive)**\n
        ------------------------\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
        \n
        Partnered Communities:\n
        ----------------------\n
        \n
        [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
        \n
        ---\n
        \n
        ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
        """
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      I know this is a really vague question, but it’s been on my mind A LOT lately. I’m specifically asking about people fighting on behalf of a group that is subject to oppression of some kind. 3 years ago, with all of the protests in America that included violence majorly against property and minorly against people but were about police brutality, I couldn’t help but question the seemingly popular notion that the violence wasn’t justified. Why wasn’t it justified? Because the police had not officially declared war on black people and other minority groups, but instead continue as an authority figure to protect and uplift their own members who do punch down on people belonging to minority groups? Because the protesters had yet to exhaust their non-violent routes? Were these protests in 2020 a retaliation or a first strike? Even if they were a first strike, was it justified?\n
      \n
      What about Hamas? Palestine has suffered from genocide in all but name for over 70 years so does that make Hamas the aggressor or are they the ones acting in self-defense?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with income inequality that have previously around the world led to uprisings and revolutions like in France and Russia? Were they justified even though the poor were not being constantly physically oppressed?\n
      \n
      What about the issues with representation in government that led to the American revolution? Did those justify violence? Was the American revolution justified simply because of violent moments like the Boston massacre?\n
      \n
      Is there a line that a group in power crosses that justifies violent revolt, or is it never justified?
      """
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    +body: "violence is never justified unless it is in self defense, the problem is people interpret self defense in different ways, that seems to be the issue"
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      date: 2023-10-22 05:36:30.0 +02:00
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  +body: "But I think the fact that the definition of self defense is up for debate calls into question whether violent self defense is ever justified."
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
153 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Magazine {#264
  +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#245 …}
  +name: "asklemmy@lemmy.world"
  +title: "asklemmy"
  +description: """
    A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions\n
    -----------------------------------------------------------------\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    **Rules: (interactive)**\n
    ------------------------\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. [Please familiarize yourself with them](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/)\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [!asklemmyafterdark@lemmy.world](https://lemmy.world/c/asklemmyafterdark) or [!asklemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com](https://lemmynsfw.com/c/asklemmynsfw). NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    5) This is not a support community.It is not a place for ‘how do I?’, type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to [Lemmy.world Support](https://lemmy.world/c/support) or email info@lemmy.world. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    Reminder: The [terms of service](https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/) apply here too.\n
    \n
    Partnered Communities:\n
    ----------------------\n
    \n
    [Tech Support](/c/techsupport@lemmy.world)\n
    \n
    [No Stupid Questions](/c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world)\n
    \n
    [You Should Know](/c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world)\n
    \n
    [Reddit](/c/reddit@lemmy.world)\n
    \n
    [Jokes](/c/jokes@lemmy.world)\n
    \n
    [Ask Ouija](/c/askouija@lemmy.world)\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    Logo design credit goes to: [tubbadu](/u/tubbadu@lemmy.world)\n
    \n
    ---\n
    \n
    ![](https://img.shields.io/lemmy/asklemmy%40lemmy.world?logo=lemmy&label=Total%20Subscribers)
    """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details