GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/index.php/u/@archomrade@midwest.social/commented

Response
200 OK
IP
216.73.216.148
Profiled on
Token
4d2d02

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 0.93 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.06 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
  +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
    \n
    For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
    \n
    Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
    \n
    Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 170
  +favouriteCount: 291
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702940454 {#2709
    date: 2023-12-19 00:00:54.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
      +body: """
        > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
        \n
        Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702753931 {#2106
        date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
      -id: 227740
      -bodyTs: "'app':4 'bought':2 'case':26 'd':42 'free':8 'grandfath':12 'hadn':22 'lifetim':16 'otherwis':47 'pay':31,44 'plan':18 'plus':17 'subscript':34 'think':40 'today':35 'went':7 'would':28"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5543533"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
        date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 227740
    }
  ]
  -id: 22409
  -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
  -bodyTs: "'7':29 'acquir':79 'aghast':46 'also':178 'altern':95 'android':25 'app':6,23,52 'ask':174 'assum':62 'base':40 'blow':54 'boy':146 'branch':81 'ceil':170 'check':137 'choic':119 'controversi':118 'countri':149 'day':30,144 'dev':103 'droid':101 'easier':194 'enough':201 'even':202 'everyth':59 'exist':92 'expect':50 'f':100 'factor':110 'find':191 'folk':82 'free':123 'given':12 'go':64 'good':127,200 'googl':154 'hit':168 'includ':96 'know':75 'launcher':22,72 'left':165 'like':130 'liter':49 'mani':94 'mind':56 'minimalist':21,97 'model':41 'money':164 'much':133,193 'must':104 'niagara':91 'nova':71 'one':60,89,98,184,212 'paid':176 'pass':156 'peopl':129 'person':189 'pirat':206 'play':155 'plus':93 'pocketcast':135,172 'premium':158 'price':141 'purchas':186,196,214 'quit':126 'rather':215 'releas':106 'repetit':217 'revolutionari':107 'second':115 'seen':10 'servic':114 'sinc':120 'someth':33,207 'spotifi':160 'still':85,162 'stuff':108 'sturdi':88 'subscrib':152 'subscript':15,39,113,188 'tier':124 'time':185,213 'tri':19 'trial':31 'upgrad':177 'useless':5 'view':182 'vs':187 'way':66 'world':69 'would':48 'year':38,140 'yes':73 'youtub':157"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702733354
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
    date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
  +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
    \n
    For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
    \n
    Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
    \n
    Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 170
  +favouriteCount: 291
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702940454 {#2709
    date: 2023-12-19 00:00:54.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
      +body: """
        > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
        \n
        Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702753931 {#2106
        date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
      -id: 227740
      -bodyTs: "'app':4 'bought':2 'case':26 'd':42 'free':8 'grandfath':12 'hadn':22 'lifetim':16 'otherwis':47 'pay':31,44 'plan':18 'plus':17 'subscript':34 'think':40 'today':35 'went':7 'would':28"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5543533"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
        date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 227740
    }
  ]
  -id: 22409
  -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
  -bodyTs: "'7':29 'acquir':79 'aghast':46 'also':178 'altern':95 'android':25 'app':6,23,52 'ask':174 'assum':62 'base':40 'blow':54 'boy':146 'branch':81 'ceil':170 'check':137 'choic':119 'controversi':118 'countri':149 'day':30,144 'dev':103 'droid':101 'easier':194 'enough':201 'even':202 'everyth':59 'exist':92 'expect':50 'f':100 'factor':110 'find':191 'folk':82 'free':123 'given':12 'go':64 'good':127,200 'googl':154 'hit':168 'includ':96 'know':75 'launcher':22,72 'left':165 'like':130 'liter':49 'mani':94 'mind':56 'minimalist':21,97 'model':41 'money':164 'much':133,193 'must':104 'niagara':91 'nova':71 'one':60,89,98,184,212 'paid':176 'pass':156 'peopl':129 'person':189 'pirat':206 'play':155 'plus':93 'pocketcast':135,172 'premium':158 'price':141 'purchas':186,196,214 'quit':126 'rather':215 'releas':106 'repetit':217 'revolutionari':107 'second':115 'seen':10 'servic':114 'sinc':120 'someth':33,207 'spotifi':160 'still':85,162 'stuff':108 'sturdi':88 'subscrib':152 'subscript':15,39,113,188 'tier':124 'time':185,213 'tri':19 'trial':31 'upgrad':177 'useless':5 'view':182 'vs':187 'way':66 'world':69 'would':48 'year':38,140 'yes':73 'youtub':157"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702733354
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
    date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
  +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
    \n
    For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
    \n
    Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
    \n
    Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 170
  +favouriteCount: 291
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702940454 {#2709
    date: 2023-12-19 00:00:54.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
      +body: """
        > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
        \n
        Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 5
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702753931 {#2106
        date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
      -id: 227740
      -bodyTs: "'app':4 'bought':2 'case':26 'd':42 'free':8 'grandfath':12 'hadn':22 'lifetim':16 'otherwis':47 'pay':31,44 'plan':18 'plus':17 'subscript':34 'think':40 'today':35 'went':7 'would':28"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5543533"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
        date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 227740
    }
  ]
  -id: 22409
  -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
  -bodyTs: "'7':29 'acquir':79 'aghast':46 'also':178 'altern':95 'android':25 'app':6,23,52 'ask':174 'assum':62 'base':40 'blow':54 'boy':146 'branch':81 'ceil':170 'check':137 'choic':119 'controversi':118 'countri':149 'day':30,144 'dev':103 'droid':101 'easier':194 'enough':201 'even':202 'everyth':59 'exist':92 'expect':50 'f':100 'factor':110 'find':191 'folk':82 'free':123 'given':12 'go':64 'good':127,200 'googl':154 'hit':168 'includ':96 'know':75 'launcher':22,72 'left':165 'like':130 'liter':49 'mani':94 'mind':56 'minimalist':21,97 'model':41 'money':164 'much':133,193 'must':104 'niagara':91 'nova':71 'one':60,89,98,184,212 'paid':176 'pass':156 'peopl':129 'person':189 'pirat':206 'play':155 'plus':93 'pocketcast':135,172 'premium':158 'price':141 'purchas':186,196,214 'quit':126 'rather':215 'releas':106 'repetit':217 'revolutionari':107 'second':115 'seen':10 'servic':114 'sinc':120 'someth':33,207 'spotifi':160 'still':85,162 'stuff':108 'sturdi':88 'subscrib':152 'subscript':15,39,113,188 'tier':124 'time':185,213 'tri':19 'trial':31 'upgrad':177 'useless':5 'view':182 'vs':187 'way':66 'world':69 'would':48 'year':38,140 'yes':73 'youtub':157"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1702733354
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
    date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
5 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
6 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
      Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
      """
    +type: "article"
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      date: 2023-12-19 00:00:54.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107}
    ]
    -id: 22409
    -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
    -bodyTs: "'7':29 'acquir':79 'aghast':46 'also':178 'altern':95 'android':25 'app':6,23,52 'ask':174 'assum':62 'base':40 'blow':54 'boy':146 'branch':81 'ceil':170 'check':137 'choic':119 'controversi':118 'countri':149 'day':30,144 'dev':103 'droid':101 'easier':194 'enough':201 'even':202 'everyth':59 'exist':92 'expect':50 'f':100 'factor':110 'find':191 'folk':82 'free':123 'given':12 'go':64 'good':127,200 'googl':154 'hit':168 'includ':96 'know':75 'launcher':22,72 'left':165 'like':130 'liter':49 'mani':94 'mind':56 'minimalist':21,97 'model':41 'money':164 'much':133,193 'must':104 'niagara':91 'nova':71 'one':60,89,98,184,212 'paid':176 'pass':156 'peopl':129 'person':189 'pirat':206 'play':155 'plus':93 'pocketcast':135,172 'premium':158 'price':141 'purchas':186,196,214 'quit':126 'rather':215 'releas':106 'repetit':217 'revolutionari':107 'second':115 'seen':10 'servic':114 'sinc':120 'someth':33,207 'spotifi':160 'still':85,162 'stuff':108 'sturdi':88 'subscrib':152 'subscript':15,39,113,188 'tier':124 'time':185,213 'tri':19 'trial':31 'upgrad':177 'useless':5 'view':182 'vs':187 'way':66 'world':69 'would':48 'year':38,140 'yes':73 'youtub':157"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702733354
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
      date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
  +body: """
    > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
    \n
    Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 5
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702753931 {#2106
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
    "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
  -id: 227740
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  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5543533"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 227740
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
7 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
      Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 170
    +favouriteCount: 291
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1702940454 {#2709
      date: 2023-12-19 00:00:54.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2714 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107}
    ]
    -id: 22409
    -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
    -bodyTs: "'7':29 'acquir':79 'aghast':46 'also':178 'altern':95 'android':25 'app':6,23,52 'ask':174 'assum':62 'base':40 'blow':54 'boy':146 'branch':81 'ceil':170 'check':137 'choic':119 'controversi':118 'countri':149 'day':30,144 'dev':103 'droid':101 'easier':194 'enough':201 'even':202 'everyth':59 'exist':92 'expect':50 'f':100 'factor':110 'find':191 'folk':82 'free':123 'given':12 'go':64 'good':127,200 'googl':154 'hit':168 'includ':96 'know':75 'launcher':22,72 'left':165 'like':130 'liter':49 'mani':94 'mind':56 'minimalist':21,97 'model':41 'money':164 'much':133,193 'must':104 'niagara':91 'nova':71 'one':60,89,98,184,212 'paid':176 'pass':156 'peopl':129 'person':189 'pirat':206 'play':155 'plus':93 'pocketcast':135,172 'premium':158 'price':141 'purchas':186,196,214 'quit':126 'rather':215 'releas':106 'repetit':217 'revolutionari':107 'second':115 'seen':10 'servic':114 'sinc':120 'someth':33,207 'spotifi':160 'still':85,162 'stuff':108 'sturdi':88 'subscrib':152 'subscript':15,39,113,188 'tier':124 'time':185,213 'tri':19 'trial':31 'upgrad':177 'useless':5 'view':182 'vs':187 'way':66 'world':69 'would':48 'year':38,140 'yes':73 'youtub':157"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702733354
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
      date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
  +body: """
    > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
    \n
    Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 5
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702753931 {#2106
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
    "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2115 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2123 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2116 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
  -id: 227740
  -bodyTs: "'app':4 'bought':2 'case':26 'd':42 'free':8 'grandfath':12 'hadn':22 'lifetim':16 'otherwis':47 'pay':31,44 'plan':18 'plus':17 'subscript':34 'think':40 'today':35 'went':7 'would':28"
  +ranking: 0
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  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5543533"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 227740
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
8 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2112
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2674 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Apps-that-shouldn-t-be-Subscriptions"
    +title: "Apps that shouldn't be Subscriptions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      What is the most useless app that you have seen being given as a *subscription*?\n
      \n
      For me, I tried a ‘minimalist’ launcher app for Android that had a 7 day trial or something and they had a yearly subscription based model for it. I was aghast. I would literally expect the app to blow my mind and do everything one can assume to go that way. In a world, where Nova Launcher (Yes, I know it has been acquired by Branch folks but it still is a sturdy one) or Niagara exist plus many alternatives including minimalist ones on F Droid, the dev must be releasing revolutionary stuff to factor in a subscription service.\n
      \n
      Second, is a controversial choice, since it’s free tier is quite good and people like it so much. But, *Pocketcasts*. I checked it’s yearly price the other day, and boy, in my country, I can subscribe to *Google Play Pass*, *YouTube Premium* and *Spotify* and still have money left before I hit the ceiling what Pocketcasts is asking for paid upgrade.\n
      \n
      Also, what are your views on one time purchase vs subscriptions? Personally, I find it much easier to purchase, if it’s good enough even if it was piratable, something if it is a one time purchase rather than repetitive.
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 170
    +favouriteCount: 291
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1702940454 {#2709
      date: 2023-12-19 00:00:54.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2723 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2725 …}
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      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2107}
    ]
    -id: 22409
    -titleTs: "'app':1 'shouldn':3 'subscript':6"
    -bodyTs: "'7':29 'acquir':79 'aghast':46 'also':178 'altern':95 'android':25 'app':6,23,52 'ask':174 'assum':62 'base':40 'blow':54 'boy':146 'branch':81 'ceil':170 'check':137 'choic':119 'controversi':118 'countri':149 'day':30,144 'dev':103 'droid':101 'easier':194 'enough':201 'even':202 'everyth':59 'exist':92 'expect':50 'f':100 'factor':110 'find':191 'folk':82 'free':123 'given':12 'go':64 'good':127,200 'googl':154 'hit':168 'includ':96 'know':75 'launcher':22,72 'left':165 'like':130 'liter':49 'mani':94 'mind':56 'minimalist':21,97 'model':41 'money':164 'much':133,193 'must':104 'niagara':91 'nova':71 'one':60,89,98,184,212 'paid':176 'pass':156 'peopl':129 'person':189 'pirat':206 'play':155 'plus':93 'pocketcast':135,172 'premium':158 'price':141 'purchas':186,196,214 'quit':126 'rather':215 'releas':106 'repetit':217 'revolutionari':107 'second':115 'seen':10 'servic':114 'sinc':120 'someth':33,207 'spotifi':160 'still':85,162 'stuff':108 'sturdi':88 'subscrib':152 'subscript':15,39,113,188 'tier':124 'time':185,213 'tri':19 'trial':31 'upgrad':177 'useless':5 'view':182 'vs':187 'way':66 'world':69 'would':48 'year':38,140 'yes':73 'youtub':157"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702733354
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/7825639"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702646954 {#2697
      date: 2023-12-15 14:29:14.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2114 …}
  +body: """
    > I bought the app before it went free, so I am grandfathered in to a lifetime Plus plan; but if that hadn’t been the case I would not be paying for a subscription today.\n
    \n
    Same, I don’t think I’d be paying for it otherwise
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 5
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702753931 {#2106
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +mentions: [
    "@kirk782@discuss.tchncs.de"
    "@ilinamorato@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2118 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2121 …}
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
  -id: 227740
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  +ranking: 0
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  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5543533"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702753931 {#2110
    date: 2023-12-16 20:12:11.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 227740
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
9 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
10 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
  +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
  +title: "Rent is Robbery"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 150
  +favouriteCount: 1166
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
    date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
      +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
      -id: 251619
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
        date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
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  -id: 24213
  -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
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  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
    date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
11 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
  +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
  +title: "Rent is Robbery"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 150
  +favouriteCount: 1166
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
    date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
      +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
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        "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
      -id: 251619
      -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
        date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
      }
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  ]
  -id: 24213
  -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1703425611
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
    date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
12 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
  +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
  +title: "Rent is Robbery"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 150
  +favouriteCount: 1166
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
    date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
      +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
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        "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
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      -id: 251619
      -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
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      +downVotes: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
        date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 251619
    }
  ]
  -id: 24213
  -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1703425611
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
    date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
13 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
14 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
    +title: "Rent is Robbery"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 150
    +favouriteCount: 1166
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
      date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228}
    ]
    -id: 24213
    -titleTs: "'rent':1 'robberi':3"
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1703425611
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
      date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
  +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703442889 {#2232
    date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +mentions: [
    "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2189 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2311 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
  -id: 251619
  -bodyTs: "'chat':5 'enter':3 'mao':1"
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  +downVotes: 0
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
    date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 251619
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
15 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
    +title: "Rent is Robbery"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 150
    +favouriteCount: 1166
    +score: 0
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    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1721357660 {#2691
      date: 2024-07-19 04:54:20.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2696 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2705 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2707 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228}
    ]
    -id: 24213
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    +ranking: 1703425611
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/9665285"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703339211 {#2677
      date: 2023-12-23 14:46:51.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2192 …}
  +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
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    date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
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    "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    "@uSpetzWon@lemmy.world"
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  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2293 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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  -id: 251619
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703442889 {#2229
    date: 2023-12-24 19:34:49.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 251619
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
16 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2228
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2252
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2655 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "Rent-is-Robbery"
    +title: "Rent is Robbery"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/bec20a00-6119-4d8b-9e89-59271add33d9.jpeg"
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  +body: "*Mao has entered the chat*"
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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18 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
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  +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
  +title: "Know your enemy"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +body: """
        My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
        \n
        > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
        \n
        On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
        \n
        I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
        """
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        "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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      +body: """
        True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
        \n
        The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
        \n
        If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
        \n
        > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
        """
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        "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
      +body: """
        … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
        \n
        What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
        \n
        My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
        """
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        "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      ]
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    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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      +body: """
        > Price tries to measure value\n
        \n
        This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
        \n
        Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
        \n
        TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
        """
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +body: """
        I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
        \n
        What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
        """
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        date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 207670
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
      +lang: "en"
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        "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
        "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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      +body: """
        > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
        \n
        It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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      +body: """
        I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
        \n
        > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
        \n
        True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
        \n
        > “Value != price”\n
        \n
        > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
        \n
        Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
        """
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      +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
      +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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      +body: """
        > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
        \n
        > Don’t the two correlate?\n
        \n
        What a mess we’ve made.
        """
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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      +body: """
        A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
        \n
        Value != price
        """
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        date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +body: """
        After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
        \n
        You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
        \n
        *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
        \n
        - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
        - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
        \n
        These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
        \n
        You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
        \n
        Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
        """
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Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
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    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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      +body: """
        My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
        \n
        > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
        \n
        On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
        \n
        I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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      +body: """
        True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
        \n
        The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
        \n
        If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
        \n
        > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
        """
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        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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      +body: """
        … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
        \n
        What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
        \n
        My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
        """
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    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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      +body: """
        > Price tries to measure value\n
        \n
        This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
        \n
        Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
        \n
        TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
        """
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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      +body: """
        I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
        \n
        What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
        """
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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      +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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      +body: """
        > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
        \n
        It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
        """
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    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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      +body: """
        I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
        \n
        > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
        \n
        True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
        \n
        > “Value != price”\n
        \n
        > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
        \n
        Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
        """
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      +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      +body: """
        > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
        \n
        > Don’t the two correlate?\n
        \n
        What a mess we’ve made.
        """
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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      +body: """
        A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
        \n
        Value != price
        """
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        date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +body: """
        After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
        \n
        You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
        \n
        *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
        \n
        - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
        - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
        \n
        These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
        \n
        You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
        \n
        Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
        """
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   …2
}
 
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20 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
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  +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
  +title: "Know your enemy"
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      +body: """
        My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
        \n
        > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
        \n
        On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
        \n
        I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
        """
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    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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      +body: """
        True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
        \n
        The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
        \n
        If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
        \n
        > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
        """
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        "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
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        date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
      }
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +body: """
        … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
        \n
        What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
        \n
        My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
        """
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        "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 208299
    }
    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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      +body: """
        > Price tries to measure value\n
        \n
        This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
        \n
        Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
        \n
        TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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      +body: """
        I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
        \n
        What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
        """
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        "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 207670
    }
    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
      +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
        "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
        "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 207931
    }
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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      +body: """
        > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
        \n
        It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
        """
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        "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +body: """
        I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
        \n
        > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
        \n
        True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
        \n
        > “Value != price”\n
        \n
        > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
        \n
        Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
        """
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        "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
        "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
      ]
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    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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      +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
        "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
      ]
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
      +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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      +body: """
        > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
        \n
        > Don’t the two correlate?\n
        \n
        What a mess we’ve made.
        """
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      +body: """
        A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
        \n
        Value != price
        """
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        date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      +body: """
        After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
        \n
        You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
        \n
        *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
        \n
        - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
        - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
        \n
        These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
        \n
        You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
        \n
        Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
        """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328}
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 20852
    -titleTs: "'enemi':3 'know':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702038246
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/8990722"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701951846 {#2603
      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2326 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
  +body: """
    My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
    \n
    > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
    \n
    On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
    \n
    I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
    """
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}
 
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23 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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    +children: [
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328}
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
    \n
    > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
    \n
    On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
    \n
    I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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Show voter details
24 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      date: 2023-12-09 09:51:13.0 +01:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328}
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2330 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 208521
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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        -id: 207931
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5333061"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207931
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207833
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2467 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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  +body: """
    My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
    \n
    > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
    \n
    On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
    \n
    I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
    """
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207880
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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    ]
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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  +body: """
    True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
    \n
    The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
    \n
    If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
    \n
    > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
    """
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27 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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    +children: [
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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        +mentions: [
          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5334994"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701984594 {#2095
          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2330 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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    True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
    \n
    The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
    \n
    If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
    \n
    > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
    """
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28 DENIED moderate 
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
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          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
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          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208521
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
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  +body: """
    True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
    \n
    The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
    \n
    If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
    \n
    > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
    """
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    date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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  +mentions: [
    "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
    "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
    "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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30 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2637 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      date: 2023-12-09 09:51:13.0 +01:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2326 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2335 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1702060715 {#2337
          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2339 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2159 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2135 …}
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        -id: 211248
        -bodyTs: "'abstract':191 'anywher':180 'arithmet':78 'ask':57,163 'built':95 'calcul':115 'capit':127 'concret':202 'conduct':206 'consequ':207 'content':10 'contribut':122 'convers':159 'critiqu':85 'currenc':15 'd':161 'definit':230,240 'desir':46 'differ':179,186,189,200,231 'discuss':14 'doesn':182,194 'drain':71 'econom':92 'elsewher':187 'exchang':21,98 'exist':39 'express':196 'fact':203,210 'feel':68 'find':140,227 'formula':249,254 'function':220 'fundament':53 'heard':157 'human':70 'imho':51 'impos':211 'instant':241 'intent':107 'jame':174 'labor':119 'lens':89,131 'life':66,244 'ltv':86 'make':184,234 'marx':105 'mayb':132 'mean':168 'meant':25 'metaphys':130 'modern':91 'need':42,142 'object':121,147 'one':258 'ought':223 'person':82 'philosophi':222 'point':8 'ponder':76 'pragmatist':156 'precis':167 'price':145 'problem':37 'prove':113 'quantifi':48,97 'quot':172 'ration':144 'read':126 'reconcil':44 'referenc':84 'represent':32 'somebodi':213 'somehow':214 'somewhen':217 'somewher':215 'speak':103 'stand':18 'sum':31 'thing':55 'think':4 'time':153 'transform':36 'tri':111 'true':1,257 'truth':192 'under':12 'unquantifi':54 'upon':208 'valu':22,34,62,99,117,146,170 'video':80 'wast':151 'whole':219 'william':173 'world':248,253 'world-formula':247,252 'wrong':135 'zero':30 'zero-sum':29"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702060715 {#2343
          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 211248
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2330 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        -id: 207670
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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        -id: 207931
        -bodyTs: "'anyth':22 'cost':8 'cut':33 'els':12,30 'less':15 'pay':3,14,27 'share':7 'shorthand':26 'someon':11,29 'tax':32 'think':19 'wrong':23"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5333061"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207931
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207833
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 207821
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 207880
        -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        ]
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        -id: 207466
        -bodyTs: "'around':19 'concept':13 'ghost':34 'hand':18 'isn':26 'labor':22 'labour':5 'marxist':12 'object':28 'peopl':15 'price':36 're':31 'remind':2 'say':21 'shadowbox':32 'theori':6,23 'true':29 'valu':8,25,35 'wave':16"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 20852
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/8990722"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701951846 {#2603
      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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  +body: """
    … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
    \n
    What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
    \n
    My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
    """
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
    \n
    What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
    \n
    My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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32 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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  +body: """
    … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
    \n
    What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
    \n
    My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    > Price tries to measure value\n
    \n
    This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
    \n
    Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
    \n
    TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
    """
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35 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    > Price tries to measure value\n
    \n
    This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
    \n
    Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
    \n
    TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
    """
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Show voter details
36 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350}
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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  }
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  +body: """
    > Price tries to measure value\n
    \n
    This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
    \n
    Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
    \n
    TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
    """
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
    \n
    What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
    """
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    date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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39 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 208521
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 207931
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
        }
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        }
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207858
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207880
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
        }
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 20852
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
    \n
    What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
    """
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    date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
40 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        +"title": 208299
      }
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 20852
    -titleTs: "'enemi':3 'know':1"
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
    \n
    What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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    -titleTs: "'enemi':3 'know':1"
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
  +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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    "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
    "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
    "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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    date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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}
 
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43 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      date: 2023-12-09 09:51:13.0 +01:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208589
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2335 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702060715 {#2343
          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 211248
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5336222"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703389253 {#2040
          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208521
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
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        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5331749"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
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  +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
44 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2335 …}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        ]
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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  +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 211248
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2330 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703389253 {#2040
          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208521
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2447 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2463 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2457 …}
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        -id: 207670
        -bodyTs: "'aggress':8 'assert':6 'find':16 'incomprehens':17 'part':10 'respons':13 'think':2"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5331749"
        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701975432 {#2422
          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
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        -id: 207931
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        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701979157 {#2078
          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207931
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2467 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207821
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2389 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 3
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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        -id: 207858
        -bodyTs: "'els':8 'less':11 'pay':3,10 'someon':7"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207858
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        -id: 207880
        -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5332811"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207880
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2012 …}
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        -id: 207881
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:49.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207881
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207466
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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    ]
    -id: 20852
    -titleTs: "'enemi':3 'know':1"
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    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1702038246
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/8990722"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701951846 {#2603
      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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  +body: """
    > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
    \n
    It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
    """
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}
 
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47 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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    +children: [
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702060715 {#2343
          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 208299
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
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    > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
    \n
    It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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48 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701988499 {#2345
          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208521
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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        -id: 207670
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
        }
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 207880
        -bodyTs: "'labor':8 'mean':5 'object':14 'theori':9 'true':15 'valu':11"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701978397 {#1404
          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        ]
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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    ]
    -id: 20852
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
    \n
    It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
    """
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}
 
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49 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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Show voter details
50 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      date: 2023-12-09 09:51:13.0 +01:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 208521
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
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  +body: """
    I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
    \n
    > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
    \n
    True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
    \n
    > “Value != price”\n
    \n
    > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
    \n
    Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
    """
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51 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701989769 {#2289
          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208589
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208521
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 6
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5333061"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207931
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
        }
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2029 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
    \n
    > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
    \n
    True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
    \n
    > “Value != price”\n
    \n
    > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
    \n
    Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
    """
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52 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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  +body: """
    I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
    \n
    > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
    \n
    True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
    \n
    > “Value != price”\n
    \n
    > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
    \n
    Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
    """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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    -titleTs: "'enemi':3 'know':1"
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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  +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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Show voter details
55 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2586 …}
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        -id: 208299
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2447 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 2
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        -id: 207670
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
        }
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        -id: 207880
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2067 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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56 DENIED moderate 
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207833
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
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  +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
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  +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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59 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/4e8abd58-e357-4836-88ce-d57b36597f6b.jpeg"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
        +lang: "en"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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  +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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60 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702064502 {#2066
          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 211434
      }
    ]
    -id: 20852
    -titleTs: "'enemi':3 'know':1"
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
  +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
  +lang: "en"
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    "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
    "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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        -id: 208299
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
        }
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 208521
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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        -id: 207931
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 207931
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
        }
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
    \n
    > Don’t the two correlate?\n
    \n
    What a mess we’ve made.
    """
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63 DENIED edit 
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:31:36.0 +01:00
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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        -bodyTs: "'els':8 'less':11 'pay':3,10 'someon':7"
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028}
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
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  +body: """
    > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
    \n
    > Don’t the two correlate?\n
    \n
    What a mess we’ve made.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
64 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
        }
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 207931
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        ]
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 207880
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
    \n
    > Don’t the two correlate?\n
    \n
    What a mess we’ve made.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-08 20:41:42.0 +01:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
    \n
    Value != price
    """
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67 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
    \n
    Value != price
    """
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    "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
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    date: 2023-12-07 19:10:33.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 207466
}
 
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68 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:56:09.0 +01:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 208521
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2389 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:39:32.0 +01:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1361 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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        +body: """
          After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
          \n
          You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
          \n
          *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
          \n
          - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
          - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
          \n
          These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
          \n
          You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
          \n
          Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
    \n
    Value != price
    """
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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  +body: """
    After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
    \n
    You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
    \n
    *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
    \n
    - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
    - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
    \n
    These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
    \n
    You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
    \n
    Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
    """
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71 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-08 19:38:35.0 +01:00
        }
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 22:29:54.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 208299
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1720 …}
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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          date: 2023-12-07 19:57:12.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 207670
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@hessenjunge@discuss.tchncs.de"
          "@Enkers@sh.itjust.works"
          "@lolcatnip@reddthat.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 207931
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2384
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1716 …2}
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
        ]
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:34:54.0 +01:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        ]
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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        ]
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:46:37.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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  +body: """
    After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
    \n
    You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
    \n
    *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
    \n
    - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
    - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
    \n
    These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
    \n
    You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
    \n
    Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
    """
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72 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071
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    +slug: "Know-your-enemy"
    +title: "Know your enemy"
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328
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        +body: """
          My tone is reflective of my mistrust of your intention, I am sorry if that is uncomfortable.\n
          \n
          > I wanted to remind people as to make political analysis not too easy by taking the mental shortcut of reducing current capitalism on the problems pointed out by Marx rendition of LTV.\n
          \n
          On the contrary, I think applying theoretical models to current real-world economics is the only way to make sense of where theory and reality deviate. I don’t consider it a mental shortcut at all. The only prerequisite for it being a useful exercise is to be explicit about where those deviations occur when they arrise. When theories are publicly dismissed wholesale without elaboration it can cause confusion about what the intent is, and there are plenty of those who *do * aim to drive wedges between those in the working class.\n
          \n
          I would have found it more interesting if you had been more specific in how you think LTV was being misused.
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336
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        +body: """
          True, and I think this is the point of contention that underlies the discussion. Currency is a stand in for exchange value, which is meant to be a zero-sum representation of ‘value’. The ‘transformation problem’ only exists as a need to reconcile that desire to quantify what is (IMHO) a fundamentally unquantifiable thing. Just ask yourself “what is the value of my own life”, and feel the humanity drain from you as you ponder the arithmetic.\n
          \n
          The video this person is referencing critiques LTV through the lense of modern economics, which is built on quantifiable exchange values. I can’t speak to Marx’s intent, if he was trying to ‘prove’ a calculation for value and labor’s objective contribution to it (I read Capital through a metaphysical lense, maybe that was wrong of me), but I find this need to rationalize price values objectively to be a waste of time.\n
          \n
          If a pragmatist heard this conversation, they’d be asking “what do you precisely mean by ‘value’?” To quote William James:\n
          \n
          > There can be no difference anywhere that doesn’t make a difference elsewhere - no difference in abstract truth that doesn’t express itself in a difference in concrete fact and in conduct consequent upon that fact, imposed on somebody, somehow, somewhere and somewhen. The whole function of philosophy ought to be to find out what definite difference it will make to you and me, at definite instants of our life, if this world-formula or that world-formula be the true one.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Faresh@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          … Ok? Why the neutral language all of a sudden? Yes, labor theory of value is an economic theory, which as a field of study is considered a ‘soft science’. Are you trying to say 'all economic theories and models are not objectively true"?\n
          \n
          What am I missing here? Why would that be worth saying in response to the OP? It really just seems like you disagree with the ‘your stolen labor value’ claim in the OP, and are attributing it to the ‘labor theory of value’, and dismissing it as a soft-science (as opposed to dismissing it because you disagree with some portion of the theory you’ve neglected to mention).\n
          \n
          My hunch is that you don’t feel confident enough in your understanding to make any kind of firm claim and are just dancing around making vague gestures toward ‘labor’ and ‘value’ definitions as a way of avoiding it.
          """
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          "@Prunebutt@feddit.de"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350
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        +body: """
          > Price tries to measure value\n
          \n
          This is probably where your misunderstanding is, and it is the justification Adam Smith gives for the free market. If price is a measure of value (or an approximation), then the price must be fair (after all, you are paying for an equivalent of use value).\n
          \n
          Marx evaluates price and value differently. He delineates ‘real price’ (the price to produce a good, including costs to the capital owner and the cost of labor) and ‘market price’ (which includes the profit extracted). He also defines value differently - Smith argues value is mostly subjective (which is a necessary condition for price to be a measure of value), while Marx argues that value is more specifically related to the labor that goes into it and the use-value, and criticized capitalist systems for fetishizing commodities and obscuring the role of labor. To Smith (and to those who take issue with the ‘labor theory of value’), value justifies the price (it is the price a buyer is willing to pay if they were perfectly rational), but to Marx, the use value is more firmly grounded in the commodity itself (a shovel produces the same amount of use-value whether it is sold for $5 or $25), and the market price they end up paying is dictated more by other factors than the value it represents. The capital owner, then, is adding to the cost to the buyer without adding to the ‘use value’ , which means they are either stealing from the laborers (since the product exists thanks to the labor that produces it) or the purchaser (who is being taken advantage of by paying more for a product than what the product’s use-value is). In either case, the owner is only able to do this by virtue of their *ownership* - of the means of production and the product of the laborers. They only part they play is choosing to put their capital to use and choosing to sell the commodity, and both the labor and the buyer operate at the risk of the capital owner withholding what others have produced (the buyer needs goods to sustain, and the laborer needs wages to purchase goods to sustain, but the capital owner puts their capital to work only to make a profit)\n
          \n
          TLDR - People incorrectly associate LTV with Marx, even though other proponents of capitalism also make heavy use of it (namely Adam Smith), and they also assume that LTV is a statement about the price of a commodity dictated by the labor it embodies (e.g. I moved this boulder 200 miles, who is going to pay me for my value?) and instead it is a description of labor’s relationship to value and is generally agnostic to the degree. It is, as you said, a framework for understanding how labor relates to value. While ‘stolen surplus value’ is explicitly a marxist statement, ‘labor theory of value’ is not, and is often misunderstood anyway as a way of dunking on something marx does not assert.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-24 04:40:53.0 +01:00
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          date: 2023-12-07 23:34:59.0 +01:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2462
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        +body: """
          I think it’s more assertive than aggressive.\n
          \n
          What part of my response did you find incomprehensible?
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2369 …}
        +body: "Having to pay more for a shared cost so that someone else can pay less… I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the shorthand “pay for someone else’s tax cuts”."
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          date: 2023-12-07 20:59:17.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          > isn’t value culturally determined in many things? Why are apple products more expensive than other computers with the same specs? Why is a ticket to a Billie Eilish concert more valuable than one to my neighbor’s indie rock band?\n
          \n
          It really seems like you’re conflating ‘value’ and ‘price’ here.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2469
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        +body: """
          I was certainly being critical, though it was unclear by your phrasing if you were saying what I thought you were. That’s why I was using passive language.\n
          \n
          > Marx hasn’t been explicity brought up yet\n
          \n
          True enough, but I assume the implicit connection your comment was making to the op was the reference to “your stolen labour value”, which *would* be a marxist concept, and “labor theory of value” is commonly misused as a counterargument against marx’s central critique of stolen surplus labor. Feel free clarify if I got that wrong.\n
          \n
          > “Value != price”\n
          \n
          > Now, that one wasn’t even implicitly mentioned.\n
          \n
          Well now *i’m* confused. If ‘labor theory of value isn’t objectively true’ isn’t making an argument about the price of a commodity not being equal to the labor it embodies, I am not sure what you’re trying to say by it.
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391
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        +body: "You are paying more so that someone else can pay less."
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1692 …}
        +body: "Then what do you mean by “the labor theory of value is not objectively true”?"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028
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        +body: """
          > A theory o value doesn’t necessarily say anything about price. As you said: “vale != price”.\n
          \n
          > Don’t the two correlate?\n
          \n
          What a mess we’ve made.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1621
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        +body: """
          A reminder that the labour theory of value is not a marxist concept. When people wave their hands around and say “labor theory of value isn’t objectively true!!”, they’re shadowboxing a ghost.\n
          \n
          Value != price
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2071}
    ]
    -id: 20852
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      date: 2023-12-07 13:24:06.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    After watching the video you’ve been citing, i think i understand where you’re coming from now.\n
    \n
    You have to understand that absent the necessary context, ‘LTV isn’t objectively true’ can come across as a troll. Because while nobody was actually mentioning LTV, the assumption that people in the thread were thinking it - and misusing it as a way to quantify some value for stolen labor - is a bit insulting.\n
    \n
    *Unlearning economics* is taking LTV as a theory of ‘exchange value’ and evaluating it on economic terms. That isn’t to say those critiques aren’t valid (they are), but it does two things that might mislead someone into thinking leftists don’t understand economics and mistakenly believe something that’s incorrect:\n
    \n
    - He discusses Adam Smith as having developed the labor theory of value first, then discusses it as something new when he gets to Marx at the end of the video. It makes it unintentionally seem like LTV is a Marxist conception when even he mentions that it isn’t\n
    - He starts the video discussing what ‘value’ is and how various scholars tried to define it, but then carries on with the rest of the video with the implication that ‘value’ is synonymous with ‘economic value’ and then evaluates Marx’s theory by taking that as granted.\n
    \n
    These aren’t even a critique of him - he runs an economics youtube channel, it makes sense that he’d be evaluating these theories from that lens. But as you mentioned before, LTV (as Marx uses it) is useful as a political philosophy more than an economic model. Admittedly, I read Capital through the lens of metaphysics, so Marx’s discussions of calculating the values of various things came across less as explicit proofs for determining objective value and more like a critique of the economic theories of the time. I can’t speak to the intent of those assertions, but I can tell you that I (and many other) leftists do not evaluate labor-value-relations as quantifiable properties but as a way of evaluating the success and failure of capitalism to promote it.\n
    \n
    You and I agree that ‘value’ as capitalism accounts for it, does not satisfy a idealistic definition of value; if economic value and abstract value were the same, there wouldn’t be that contradiction that you pointed to (e.g. the creation of economic value coming at the cost of environmental pollution, ect). Similarly, I view the employee-employer relationship as fundamentally in-tension, and I see “stolen labor value” as an accurate framing from the point of view of competing interests.\n
    \n
    Sorry for mistaking your intentions, it wasn’t my intention to bully you.
    """
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  +favouriteCount: 4
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1704204463 {#2322
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    "@kibiz0r@lemmy.world"
    "@angrymouse@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2305 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2303 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2317 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2290 …}
  -id: 273457
  -bodyTs: "'bait':4 'boy':5 'get':6 'im':7 'took':2"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5841077"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 273457
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
79 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2310
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2712 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2751 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2753 …}
    +slug: "Fellow-landchads-of-Lemmy-Don-t-you-hate-when-this-happens"
    +title: "Fellow landchads of Lemmy. Don't you hate when this happens?"
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d892d362-cd30-4ab7-a655-fd9887e55417.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 53
    +favouriteCount: 668
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1712587153 {#2746
      date: 2024-04-08 16:39:13.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2754 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2756 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2758 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2760 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2762 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2764 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312}
    ]
    -id: 26619
    -titleTs: "'fellow':1 'happen':11 'hate':8 'landchad':2 'lemmi':4"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704245553
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/10219474"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704159153 {#2733
      date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2306 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2308 …}
  +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 4
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1704204463 {#2322
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    "@kibiz0r@lemmy.world"
    "@angrymouse@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2305 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2303 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2317 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2290 …}
  -id: 273457
  -bodyTs: "'bait':4 'boy':5 'get':6 'im':7 'took':2"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5841077"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 273457
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
80 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2310
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2712 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2751 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2753 …}
    +slug: "Fellow-landchads-of-Lemmy-Don-t-you-hate-when-this-happens"
    +title: "Fellow landchads of Lemmy. Don't you hate when this happens?"
    +url: "https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d892d362-cd30-4ab7-a655-fd9887e55417.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 53
    +favouriteCount: 668
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1712587153 {#2746
      date: 2024-04-08 16:39:13.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2754 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2756 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2758 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2760 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2762 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2764 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2312}
    ]
    -id: 26619
    -titleTs: "'fellow':1 'happen':11 'hate':8 'landchad':2 'lemmi':4"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704245553
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/10219474"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704159153 {#2733
      date: 2024-01-02 02:32:33.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2307 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2306 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2308 …}
  +body: "He took the bait boys, get’im"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 4
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1704204463 {#2322
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@STRIKINGdebate2@lemmy.world"
    "@kibiz0r@lemmy.world"
    "@angrymouse@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2305 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2303 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2317 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2313 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2292 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2290 …}
  -id: 273457
  -bodyTs: "'bait':4 'boy':5 'get':6 'im':7 'took':2"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5841077"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704204463 {#2321
    date: 2024-01-02 15:07:43.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 273457
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
81 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
82 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
  +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
  +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
  +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
  +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 50
  +favouriteCount: 215
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1722895668 {#2766
    date: 2024-08-06 00:07:48.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2776 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2778 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2780 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
        \n
        I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 7
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1704806324 {#2199
        date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2212 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2209 …}
      -id: 293410
      -bodyTs: "'abl':23 'fortun':6 'get':25 'glad':20 'guess':16 'happen':31 'instal':10 'mayb':5 'need':28 'offlin':13 'read':14 'tachiyomi':11 'time':7 'unfortun':3"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031057"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
        date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 293410
    }
  ]
  -id: 28258
  -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
  -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1704858013
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://reddthat.com/post/11519171"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704771613 {#2752
    date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
83 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
  +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
  +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
  +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
  +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 50
  +favouriteCount: 215
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1722895668 {#2766
    date: 2024-08-06 00:07:48.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2776 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2778 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2780 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
        \n
        I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 7
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1704806324 {#2199
        date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2212 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2209 …}
      -id: 293410
      -bodyTs: "'abl':23 'fortun':6 'get':25 'glad':20 'guess':16 'happen':31 'instal':10 'mayb':5 'need':28 'offlin':13 'read':14 'tachiyomi':11 'time':7 'unfortun':3"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031057"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
        date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 293410
    }
  ]
  -id: 28258
  -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
  -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1704858013
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://reddthat.com/post/11519171"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704771613 {#2752
    date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
84 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
  +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
  +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
  +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
  +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
  +type: "link"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 50
  +favouriteCount: 215
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1722895668 {#2766
    date: 2024-08-06 00:07:48.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2776 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2778 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2780 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
        \n
        I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 7
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1704806324 {#2199
        date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@ardi60@reddthat.com"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2197 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2203 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2212 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2209 …}
      -id: 293410
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
85 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
86 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
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    +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
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    +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
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    ]
    -id: 28258
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      date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
    \n
    I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
87 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
    +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
    +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
    +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
    +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
    +type: "link"
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2782 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195}
    ]
    -id: 28258
    -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
    -bodyTs: "'disput':7 'get':9 'harder':10 'implic':4 'kakao':6 'like':3 'look':2"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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      date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
    \n
    I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
    """
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  -id: 293410
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
    date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 293410
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
88 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2195
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2193
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2730 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2771 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2773 …}
    +slug: "Extensions-list-removed-for-Tachiyomi"
    +title: "Extensions list removed for Tachiyomi"
    +url: "https://tachiyomi.org/news/2024-01-09-extensions-removal"
    +body: "it looks like implications of Kakao dispute is getting harder"
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    ]
    -id: 28258
    -titleTs: "'extens':1 'list':2 'remov':3 'tachiyomi':5"
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      date: 2024-01-09 04:40:13.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    What an unfortunate (or maybe fortunate?) time to have installed Tachiyomi for offline reading\n
    \n
    I guess I should be glad I was able to get what I needed before this happened
    """
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704806324 {#2194
    date: 2024-01-09 14:18:44.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
89 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
90 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
  +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
    \n
    1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
    2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
    3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 50
  +favouriteCount: 59
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1723332587 {#2652
    date: 2024-08-11 01:29:47.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2659 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2661 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
      +body: """
        I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
        \n
        I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
        """
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        "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
        "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
      ]
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        date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
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  +cross: false
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  +ranking: 1704825191
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
    date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
    date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
91 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
  +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
    \n
    1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
    2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
    3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
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  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 50
  +favouriteCount: 59
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1723332587 {#2652
    date: 2024-08-11 01:29:47.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2659 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2661 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2663 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
      +body: """
        I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
        \n
        I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1704808692 {#2200
        date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
        "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2267 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2271 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2272 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2253 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2262 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2264 …}
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      -bodyTs: "'ahead':30 'arr':87 'bit':73 'compose.yml':109 'configur':29 'contain':52,124 'coordin':104 'correct':54 'determin':27 'differen':37 'direct':49 'docker':84,123 'easi':102 'file':110 'fuss':71 'get':114 'go':64 'long':9 'lxc':34,92,126 'm':58 'map':41,76 'mount':14,46,105,118 'need':69 'network':15,116 'person':78 'point':106 'prepar':25 'proper':13 'proxmox':18 'read/write':120 'realli':8 'root':39 'rout':66 'run':82 's/lxc':20 'sambashar':96 'second':2 'separ':91 'servic':99 'smb':48 'someon':53 'still':112 'storag':16,117 'stream':98 'suit':88 'time':10,32 'took':5 'tricki':113 'unprivilag':33 'user':40,75 'vm':19,81 'within':121 'wrong':59"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031622"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
        date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 293479
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  ]
  -id: 28133
  -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
  -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
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  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
    date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
    date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
92 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
  +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
    \n
    1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
    2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
    3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: false
  +commentCount: 50
  +favouriteCount: 59
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1723332587 {#2652
    date: 2024-08-11 01:29:47.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2659 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2661 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2663 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
      +body: """
        I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
        \n
        I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1704808692 {#2200
        date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
        "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2267 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2271 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2272 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2253 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2262 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2264 …}
      -id: 293479
      -bodyTs: "'ahead':30 'arr':87 'bit':73 'compose.yml':109 'configur':29 'contain':52,124 'coordin':104 'correct':54 'determin':27 'differen':37 'direct':49 'docker':84,123 'easi':102 'file':110 'fuss':71 'get':114 'go':64 'long':9 'lxc':34,92,126 'm':58 'map':41,76 'mount':14,46,105,118 'need':69 'network':15,116 'person':78 'point':106 'prepar':25 'proper':13 'proxmox':18 'read/write':120 'realli':8 'root':39 'rout':66 'run':82 's/lxc':20 'sambashar':96 'second':2 'separ':91 'servic':99 'smb':48 'someon':53 'still':112 'storag':16,117 'stream':98 'suit':88 'time':10,32 'took':5 'tricki':113 'unprivilag':33 'user':40,75 'vm':19,81 'within':121 'wrong':59"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031622"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
        date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 293479
    }
  ]
  -id: 28133
  -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
  -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
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  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
    date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
    date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
93 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
94 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
    +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
      \n
      1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
      2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
      3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 50
    +favouriteCount: 59
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      date: 2024-08-11 01:29:47.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2659 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2661 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2663 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270}
    ]
    -id: 28133
    -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
    -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704825191
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
      date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
      date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
  +body: """
    I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
    \n
    I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 1
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1704808692 {#2200
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2267 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2271 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2272 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2253 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2262 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2264 …}
  -id: 293479
  -bodyTs: "'ahead':30 'arr':87 'bit':73 'compose.yml':109 'configur':29 'contain':52,124 'coordin':104 'correct':54 'determin':27 'differen':37 'direct':49 'docker':84,123 'easi':102 'file':110 'fuss':71 'get':114 'go':64 'long':9 'lxc':34,92,126 'm':58 'map':41,76 'mount':14,46,105,118 'need':69 'network':15,116 'person':78 'point':106 'prepar':25 'proper':13 'proxmox':18 'read/write':120 'realli':8 'root':39 'rout':66 'run':82 's/lxc':20 'sambashar':96 'second':2 'separ':91 'servic':99 'smb':48 'someon':53 'still':112 'storag':16,117 'stream':98 'suit':88 'time':10,32 'took':5 'tricki':113 'unprivilag':33 'user':40,75 'vm':19,81 'within':121 'wrong':59"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031622"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 293479
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
95 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
    +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
      \n
      1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
      2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
      3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 50
    +favouriteCount: 59
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1723332587 {#2652
      date: 2024-08-11 01:29:47.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +tags: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2659 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2661 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2663 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270}
    ]
    -id: 28133
    -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
    -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704825191
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
      date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
      date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
  +body: """
    I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
    \n
    I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 1
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1704808692 {#2200
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
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  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2267 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2271 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2272 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2253 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2262 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2264 …}
  -id: 293479
  -bodyTs: "'ahead':30 'arr':87 'bit':73 'compose.yml':109 'configur':29 'contain':52,124 'coordin':104 'correct':54 'determin':27 'differen':37 'direct':49 'docker':84,123 'easi':102 'file':110 'fuss':71 'get':114 'go':64 'long':9 'lxc':34,92,126 'm':58 'map':41,76 'mount':14,46,105,118 'need':69 'network':15,116 'person':78 'point':106 'prepar':25 'proper':13 'proxmox':18 'read/write':120 'realli':8 'root':39 'rout':66 'run':82 's/lxc':20 'sambashar':96 'second':2 'separ':91 'servic':99 'smb':48 'someon':53 'still':112 'storag':16,117 'stream':98 'suit':88 'time':10,32 'took':5 'tricki':113 'unprivilag':33 'user':40,75 'vm':19,81 'within':121 'wrong':59"
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 293479
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
96 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2266
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2657 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Planning-on-setting-up-Proxmox-and-moving-most-services-there"
    +title: "Planning on setting up Proxmox and moving most services there.  Some questions"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I am currently running most of my stuff from an unraid box using spare parts I have. It seems like I am hitting my limit on it and just want to turn it into a NAS. Micro PCs/USFF are what I am planning on moving stuff to (probably a cluster of 2 for now but might expand later.). Just a few quick questions:\n
      \n
      1. Running arr services on a proxmox cluster to download to a device on the same network. I don’t think there would be any problems but wanted to see what changes need to be done.\n
      2. Which micro PCs are you running? I am leaving towards HP prodesk or Lenovo 7xx/9xx series around 200 each. I don’t really plan on getting more than 2-3 and don’t run too many things, but would want enough overhead if I switch stuff over to home assistant and windows and Linux VMs if needed.\n
      3. Any best practices you recommend when starting a Proxmox cluster? I’ve learned over time it’s best to set it up correctly than try to fix stuff when it’s running. I wish I could coach myself from 7 years ago now. Would of saved a lot of headaches lol.
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 50
    +favouriteCount: 59
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2659 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2661 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2665 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2667 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2669 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2270}
    ]
    -id: 28133
    -titleTs: "'move':7 'plan':1 'proxmox':5 'question':12 'servic':9 'set':3"
    -bodyTs: "'-3':130 '1':64 '2':52,100,129 '200':118 '3':158 '7':198 '7xx/9xx':115 'ago':200 'around':117 'arr':66 'assist':150 'best':160,176 'box':12 'chang':95 'cluster':50,71,168 'coach':195 'correct':181 'could':194 'current':3 'devic':76 'done':99 'download':73 'enough':141 'expand':57 'fix':185 'get':126 'headach':208 'hit':23 'home':149 'hp':111 'later':58 'learn':171 'leav':109 'lenovo':114 'like':20 'limit':25 'linux':154 'lol':209 'lot':206 'mani':136 'micro':37,102 'might':56 'move':45 'nas':36 'need':96,157 'network':80 'overhead':142 'part':15 'pcs':103 'pcs/usff':38 'plan':43,124 'practic':161 'probabl':48 'problem':89 'prodesk':112 'proxmox':70,167 'question':63 'quick':62 'realli':123 'recommend':163 'run':4,65,106,134,190 'save':204 'see':93 'seem':19 'seri':116 'servic':67 'set':178 'spare':14 'start':165 'stuff':8,46,146,186 'switch':145 'thing':137 'think':84 'time':173 'toward':110 'tri':183 'turn':32 'unraid':11 'use':13 've':170 'vms':155 'want':30,91,140 'window':152 'wish':192 'would':86,139,202 'year':199"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1704825191
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7304474"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1719179820 {#2638
      date: 2024-06-23 23:57:00.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704738791 {#2587
      date: 2024-01-08 19:33:11.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2257 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2268 …}
  +body: """
    I second this. It took me a really long time how to properly mount network storage on proxmox VM’s/LXC’s, so just be prepared and determine the configuration ahead of time. Unprivilaged LXC’s have differen’t root user mappings, and you can’t mount an SMB directly into a container (someone correct me if i’m wrong here), so if you go that route you will need to fuss a bit with user maps.\n
    \n
    I personally have a VM running with docker for the arr suite and a separate LXC’s for my sambashare and streaming services. It’s easy to coordinate mount points with the compose.yml files, but still tricky getting the network storage mounted for read/write within the docker containers and LXC’s.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 1
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1704808692 {#2200
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social"
    "@eerongal@ttrpg.network"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2267 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2271 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2272 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2253 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2262 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2264 …}
  -id: 293479
  -bodyTs: "'ahead':30 'arr':87 'bit':73 'compose.yml':109 'configur':29 'contain':52,124 'coordin':104 'correct':54 'determin':27 'differen':37 'direct':49 'docker':84,123 'easi':102 'file':110 'fuss':71 'get':114 'go':64 'long':9 'lxc':34,92,126 'm':58 'map':41,76 'mount':14,46,105,118 'need':69 'network':15,116 'person':78 'point':106 'prepar':25 'proper':13 'proxmox':18 'read/write':120 'realli':8 'root':39 'rout':66 'run':82 's/lxc':20 'sambashar':96 'second':2 'separ':91 'servic':99 'smb':48 'someon':53 'still':112 'storag':16,117 'stream':98 'suit':88 'time':10,32 'took':5 'tricki':113 'unprivilag':33 'user':40,75 'vm':19,81 'within':121 'wrong':59"
  +ranking: 0
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  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6031622"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704808692 {#2211
    date: 2024-01-09 14:58:12.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 293479
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
97 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
98 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
  +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
  +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
  +body: """
    And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
    \n
    It’s good to give back to the community.\n
    \n
    EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
    """
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
      +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
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        "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
      ]
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  +ranking: 1706579615
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
    date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
    date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
99 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
  +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
  +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
  +body: """
    And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
    \n
    It’s good to give back to the community.\n
    \n
    EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 41
  +favouriteCount: 605
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
    date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
      +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
        date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
      -id: 349856
      -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6673767"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
        date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 349856
    }
  ]
  -id: 33746
  -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
  -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':5 '6':16 'agenc':48 'back':38 'bill':29 'communiti':41 'comput':13 'copyright':70 'd':22 'day':17 'dream':67 'edit':42 'electr':28 'far':25 'get':23 'give':37 'gonna':31 'good':35 'iso':59 'left':11 'lemmy.ml':4 'lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':3 'letter':47 'linux':58 'materi':71 'might':50 'never':19,66 'paper':63 'post':54 'qbittorr':8 'read':52 'research':62 'run':14 'scientif':61 'stat':9 'sting':32 'thought':20 'three':46 'three-lett':45 'upload':57,69 'would':65"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1706579615
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
    date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
    date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
100 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
  +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
  +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
  +body: """
    And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
    \n
    It’s good to give back to the community.\n
    \n
    EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 41
  +favouriteCount: 605
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
    date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
      +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
        date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
        "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
      -id: 349856
      -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6673767"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
        date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 349856
    }
  ]
  -id: 33746
  -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
  -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':5 '6':16 'agenc':48 'back':38 'bill':29 'communiti':41 'comput':13 'copyright':70 'd':22 'day':17 'dream':67 'edit':42 'electr':28 'far':25 'get':23 'give':37 'gonna':31 'good':35 'iso':59 'left':11 'lemmy.ml':4 'lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':3 'letter':47 'linux':58 'materi':71 'might':50 'never':19,66 'paper':63 'post':54 'qbittorr':8 'read':52 'research':62 'run':14 'scientif':61 'stat':9 'sting':32 'thought':20 'three':46 'three-lett':45 'upload':57,69 'would':65"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1706579615
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
    date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
    date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
101 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
102 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
    +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
    +body: """
      And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
      \n
      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
      """
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 41
    +favouriteCount: 605
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
      date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158}
    ]
    -id: 33746
    -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
    -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':5 '6':16 'agenc':48 'back':38 'bill':29 'communiti':41 'comput':13 'copyright':70 'd':22 'day':17 'dream':67 'edit':42 'electr':28 'far':25 'get':23 'give':37 'gonna':31 'good':35 'iso':59 'left':11 'lemmy.ml':4 'lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':3 'letter':47 'linux':58 'materi':71 'might':50 'never':19,66 'paper':63 'post':54 'qbittorr':8 'read':52 'research':62 'run':14 'scientif':61 'stat':9 'sting':32 'thought':20 'three':46 'three-lett':45 'upload':57,69 'would':65"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1706579615
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
      date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
      date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
  +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 6
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
    date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
    "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
  -id: 349856
  -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6673767"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
    date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 349856
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
103 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
    +title: "I finally uploaded a whole terabyte in a single session. I'm a super seeder!"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/972b47c4-114a-4df4-891b-d1dc00aee918.png"
    +body: """
      And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
      \n
      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
      """
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 41
    +favouriteCount: 605
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729526476 {#2786
      date: 2024-10-21 18:01:16.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2793 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2795 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2797 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2801 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2803 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158}
    ]
    -id: 33746
    -titleTs: "'final':2 'm':12 'seeder':15 'session':10 'singl':9 'super':14 'terabyt':6 'upload':3 'whole':5"
    -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':5 '6':16 'agenc':48 'back':38 'bill':29 'communiti':41 'comput':13 'copyright':70 'd':22 'day':17 'dream':67 'edit':42 'electr':28 'far':25 'get':23 'give':37 'gonna':31 'good':35 'iso':59 'left':11 'lemmy.ml':4 'lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png)':3 'letter':47 'linux':58 'materi':71 'might':50 'never':19,66 'paper':63 'post':54 'qbittorr':8 'read':52 'research':62 'run':14 'scientif':61 'stat':9 'sting':32 'thought':20 'three':46 'three-lett':45 'upload':57,69 'would':65"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1706579615
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
      date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
      date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
  +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 6
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1706539412 {#2155
    date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
    "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2150 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2153 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2149 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2185 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2179 …}
  -id: 349856
  -bodyTs: "'emoji':7 'hammer':15 'instead':13 'name':9 'ok':1 'shouldn':4 'sickl':10 'vibe':12,17 'wait':3"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6673767"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706539412 {#2154
    date: 2024-01-29 15:43:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 349856
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
104 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2158
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2157
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2791 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2639 …}
    +slug: "I-finally-uploaded-a-whole-terabyte-in-a-single-session"
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      And [here](https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/638e01af-2563-4884-8124-ba0e3d95cbfa.png) are my qBittorrent stats. I left my computer running for 6 days, I never thought I’d get this far! But that electricity bill’s gonna sting…\n
      \n
      It’s good to give back to the community.\n
      \n
      EDIT: To any three-letter agencies who might be reading this post, I was uploading Linux ISOs and scientific research papers. I would never dream of uploading copyrighted material…
      """
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1706579615
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/11184727"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729266730 {#2772
      date: 2024-10-18 17:52:10.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706493215 {#2749
      date: 2024-01-29 02:53:35.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2151 …}
  +body: "OK but wait shouldn’t that emoji be named ‘sickle and vibe’ instead of ‘hammer and vibe’?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    "@TheImpressiveX@lemmy.ml"
    "@lurkerlady@hexbear.net"
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  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2147 …}
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
105 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
106 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
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      -id: 293011
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  -id: 18142
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701251522 {#2658
    date: 2023-11-29 10:52:02.0 +01:00
  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
107 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
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  +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
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  +ip: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2679 …}
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    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
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      -id: 293011
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
108 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2124 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
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  +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
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      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2282 …}
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      -id: 293011
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
109 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
110 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
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    "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
    "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
    "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
111 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
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    +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
    +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
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     …2
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    "@MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world"
    "@brax@sh.itjust.works"
    "@spaceaape@lemmy.dbzer0.com"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
112 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2280
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2635 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2676 …}
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    +slug: "Several-Piracy-Related-Arrests-Spark-Fears-of-High-Level-Crackdown-TorrentFreak"
    +title: "Several Piracy-Related Arrests Spark Fears of High-Level Crackdown * TorrentFreak"
    +url: "https://torrentfreak.com/several-piracy-related-arrests-spark-fears-of-high-level-crackdown-231127/"
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      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2283}
    ]
    -id: 18142
    -titleTs: "'arrest':5 'crackdown':12 'fear':7 'high':10 'high-level':9 'level':11 'piraci':3 'piracy-rel':2 'relat':4 'sever':1 'spark':6 'torrentfreak':13"
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     …2
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
113 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
114 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2694 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
  +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
  +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
  +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
  +body: """
    An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
    \n
    People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
    \n
    I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
    \n
    Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
    """
  +type: "video"
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    date: 2024-02-12 14:51:11.0 +01:00
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  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2044
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2126 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043 …}
      +body: """
        It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
        \n
        The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
        \n
        If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
        """
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        "@Lafari@lemmy.world"
        "@Bye@lemmy.world"
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    date: 2023-12-23 04:25:37.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
115 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2694 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
  +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
  +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
  +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
  +body: """
    An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
    \n
    People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
    \n
    I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
    \n
    Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
    """
  +type: "video"
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  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2044
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2126 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043 …}
      +body: """
        It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
        \n
        The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
        \n
        If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1703345687 {#2163
        date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
      }
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      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Lafari@lemmy.world"
        "@Bye@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2223 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2216 …}
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      +ranking: 0
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703345687 {#2162
        date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 251544
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  +cross: false
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    date: 2023-12-23 04:25:37.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
116 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2694 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
  +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
  +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
  +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
  +body: """
    An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
    \n
    People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
    \n
    I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
    \n
    Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
    """
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  +children: [
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      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2126 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043 …}
      +body: """
        It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
        \n
        The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
        \n
        If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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      +lastActive: DateTime @1703345687 {#2163
        date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@Lafari@lemmy.world"
        "@Bye@lemmy.world"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
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        date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 251544
    }
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  +cross: false
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703301937 {#2715
    date: 2023-12-23 04:25:37.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
117 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
118 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2044
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2694 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
    +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
    +body: """
      An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
      \n
      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
      \n
      I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
      \n
      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
      """
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1703388337
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9883787"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703301937 {#2715
      date: 2023-12-23 04:25:37.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2126 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043 …}
  +body: """
    It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
    \n
    The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
    \n
    If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
    """
  +lang: "en"
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    "@Lafari@lemmy.world"
    "@Bye@lemmy.world"
  ]
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703345687 {#2162
    date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 251544
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
119 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2044
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2694 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
    +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
    +body: """
      An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
      \n
      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
      \n
      I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
      \n
      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
      """
    +type: "video"
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    -id: 24154
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    +cross: false
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    +ranking: 1703388337
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.world/post/9883787"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703301937 {#2715
      date: 2023-12-23 04:25:37.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2126 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043 …}
  +body: """
    It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
    \n
    The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
    \n
    If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 1
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703345687 {#2163
    date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Lafari@lemmy.world"
    "@Bye@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2223 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2216 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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  -id: 251544
  -bodyTs: "'agre':38,71 'almost':46 'anonym':15 'argument':102 'arriv':48 'assum':5,91 'assumpt':56 'care':88 'certain':47 'even':35 'happen':69 'healthi':28 'instead':109 'internet':19 'jp':32 'justifi':82 'know':23 'one':40 'opinion':51,67,105 'peopl':16,90 'posit':43 'problem':30 're':62,74,107 'realli':86 'share':58,65,75,108 'shoehorn':111 'skeptic':13 'support':93,101 'take':60 'terribl':55 'think':26 'toward':14 'under':77 'use':80,98 'worldview':78 'worst':7"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
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  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5680263"
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    date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 251544
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
120 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2044
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2128
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2694 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2732 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-do-people-not-understand-that-you-can-agree-with"
    +title: "Why do people not understand that you can agree with one thing someone said or did while disagreeing with the majority of what they stand for?"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IQPiLs2Mmw"
    +body: """
      An example is that I generally despise Jordan Peterson and most of what he says, but I often quote one thing that Jordan Peterson said (in the linked video) because I think it’s a good summary of why toxic positivity doesn’t work.\n
      \n
      People (who hate JP) freak out when I quote him and say “Why tf are you quoting Jordan Peterson? Are you a *insert thing that Jordan Peterson is*?” And I’m like “No, I generally disagree with him on most points, aside from this one thing.” But they don’t believe or accept it and assume that I must be a #1 Jordan Peterson fan or something.\n
      \n
      I think it can be considered a partial agreement, majority disagreement. Or a partial agreement with a person you generally disagree with. But I’d be open to other terms of how to describe this in a way people can understand.\n
      \n
      Also, to avoid the controversy of referencing Jordan Peterson, if anyone has a better summary of the same concept explained by a different person in a way as well as he does, that would be appreciated too.
      """
    +type: "video"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: true
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1703388337
    +visibility: "visible             "
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703301937 {#2715
      date: 2023-12-23 04:25:37.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2127 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2126 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043 …}
  +body: """
    It’s not about assuming the worst, it’s more about being skeptical toward anonymous people on the Internet you don’t know, which I think is healthy.\n
    \n
    The problem with JP is that even if you agree with one of his positions, he has almost certainly arrived to that opinion through his other terrible assumptions. By sharing his take, you’re not just sharing the opinion you happen to agree with, you’re sharing the underlying worldview he uses to justify it.\n
    \n
    If you really do care about people assuming your support for him, you should use your own supporting arguments for the opinion you’re sharing instead of shoehorning his in.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +score: 0
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    date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Lafari@lemmy.world"
    "@Bye@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2139 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2224 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2223 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2216 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2213 …}
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  -id: 251544
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  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
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  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5680263"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703345687 {#2162
    date: 2023-12-23 16:34:47.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 251544
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
121 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
122 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
  +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
  +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
  +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
  +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
  +type: "video"
  +lang: "en"
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  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 15
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1702469336 {#2182
    date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2626 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
        \n
        The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
        \n
        If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 11
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
        date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
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        date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 217418
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  -id: 21645
  -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
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  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
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  +ranking: 1702344361
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/17599563"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
    date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
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  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
123 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
  +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
  +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
  +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
  +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
  +type: "video"
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  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 15
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  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2626 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2622 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
        \n
        The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
        \n
        If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 11
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
        date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2104 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
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      +ranking: 0
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
124 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
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  +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
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        We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
        \n
        The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
        \n
        If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
        """
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    date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
125 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
126 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
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    -id: 21645
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    +cross: false
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
    \n
    The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
    \n
    If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
    """
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  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
127 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
    +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
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    +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
    \n
    The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
    \n
    If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
    """
  +lang: "en"
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
    date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 217418
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
128 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2053
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2598 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2621 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2620 …}
    +slug: "Why-Even-Your-Local-Grocery-Store-Wants-Your-Digital-Data"
    +title: "Why Even Your Local Grocery Store Wants Your Digital Data"
    +url: "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9qTDZ_MJM"
    +body: "I honestly feel defeated right now, it feels like currently it’s impossible to truly stay private online unless one is willing to move to a cabin in the woods with no internet and you stop using tech all together and truly become a ghost and stay offline. Can someone help me feel like everything I am currently doing is actually making a difference? Because right now it doesn’t feel like it."
    +type: "video"
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2023-12-13 13:08:56.0 +01:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2619 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2625 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2628 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2630 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2058}
    ]
    -id: 21645
    -titleTs: "'data':10 'digit':9 'even':2 'groceri':5 'local':4 'store':6 'want':7"
    -bodyTs: "'actual':61 'becom':43 'cabin':27 'current':10,58 'defeat':4 'differ':64 'doesn':69 'everyth':55 'feel':3,8,53,71 'ghost':45 'help':51 'honest':2 'imposs':13 'internet':33 'like':9,54,72 'make':62 'move':24 'offlin':48 'one':20 'onlin':18 'privat':17 'right':5,66 'someon':50 'stay':16,47 'stop':36 'tech':38 'togeth':40 'truli':15,42 'unless':19 'use':37 'will':22 'wood':30"
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702344361
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemm.ee/post/17599563"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702257961 {#2599
      date: 2023-12-11 02:26:01.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#2125 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    We are absolutely sleepwalking into the worst possible tech futures. It’s so ubiquitous now that even if you’re able to explain to someone how bad things are, trying to avoid this type of data collection would almost take Edward Snowden - level planning and obsession, so people just kind of give up before they even start.\n
    \n
    The truth is that even the small actions you can take help make your data a little less valuable. They’re collecting so much data from so many people, that they really don’t have any easy way of verifying the data in your profile. So while there’s essentially no way to go back to when you had NO data, the accuracy and relevance of the data can be soured so that their use-cases for it are less successful. Assuming you’re already using an adblock or VPN to do most of your browsing, the biggest things are phone app data collection and purchases through a credit card via online portals as well as in-person. If you can avoid those, most of what they use the data for is a lot less successful. I would also avoid social media apps or sites where login is required, as they can scrape data on how long you look at any given image or ad with a pretty high degree of accuracy.\n
    \n
    If you’re dead-set on perfection, you’re bound to feel helpless. But you should feel good about the little steps you take that 80-90% of people aren’t, because you’re that much harder to target via your data footprint.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 11
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1702317859 {#2052
    date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
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  +mentions: [
    "@HurlingDurling@lemm.ee"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2165 …}
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  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
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  +ranking: 0
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  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/5431108"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702317859 {#2054
    date: 2023-12-11 19:04:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 217418
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
129 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
130 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#1460
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
  +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
    \n
    Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
    \n
    - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
    - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
    - there are no other processes running\n
    \n
    What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
    """
  +type: "article"
  +lang: "en"
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    date: 2024-10-19 07:11:40.0 +02:00
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1641 …}
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  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
      +body: """
        > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
        \n
        My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
        \n
        The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 3
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1706310212 {#2242
        date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
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      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2226 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2238 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2249 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2250 …}
      -id: 343318
      -bodyTs: "'16gb':93 '210mb/s':72 '2hr':23 '3':44 '4tb':17 '5gb/s':25 '600mb/s':11 '6gb/s':39 'actual':10,68 'alloc':89 'amount':86 'capabl':47,54 'clear':63 'complain':115 'crucial':123 'culprit':109 'drive':52,61 'elsewher':38 'ext4':76 'fair':85 'filesystem':74 'gigabit':4 'gratuit':96 'guess':99 'honest':112 'iii':2 'integr':118 'interfac':45 'less':21 'like':92 'm':98 'market':57 'materi':58 'max':7 'max_p@lemmy.max-p.me':30 'mistak':13 'omv':82 'point':32 'psych':64 'ram':88 'rsync':102 'sata':1,43 'second':36 'share':78 'smb':81 'someth':95 'speed':8,70 'still':15 'take':20 'thank':28 'theori':27 'though':14 'time':37 'transfer':18,69,106,121 'way':101"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6588545"
      +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1728864228 {#2239
        date: 2024-10-14 02:03:48.0 +02:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706310212 {#2240
        date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 343318
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2247 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
      +body: """
        Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
        \n
        I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
        \n
        Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2024-01-27 00:50:40.0 +01:00
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        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        "@d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2255 …}
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      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2039 …}
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      +ranking: 0
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      +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6589715"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706313040 {#2248
        date: 2024-01-27 00:50:40.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 343392
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  ]
  -id: 33332
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  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729391389 {#1637
    date: 2024-10-20 04:29:49.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706308065 {#1643
    date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
131 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Entry {#1460
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
  +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
    \n
    Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
    \n
    - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
    - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
    - there are no other processes running\n
    \n
    What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
    """
  +type: "article"
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      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
      +body: """
        > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
        \n
        My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
        \n
        The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 3
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1706310212 {#2242
        date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
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        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2226 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2238 …}
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        date: 2024-10-14 02:03:48.0 +02:00
      }
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706310212 {#2240
        date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
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      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
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        Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
        \n
        I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
        \n
        Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
        """
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Show voter details
132 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#1460
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
  +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
  +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
  +url: null
  +body: """
    I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
    \n
    Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
    \n
    - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
    - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
    - there are no other processes running\n
    \n
    What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
    """
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      +body: """
        > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
        \n
        My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
        \n
        The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
        """
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        "@archomrade@midwest.social"
        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
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        date: 2024-10-14 02:03:48.0 +02:00
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        date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
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      +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2247 …}
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      +body: """
        Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
        \n
        I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
        \n
        Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
        """
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        "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
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}
 
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133 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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Show voter details
134 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
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        +body: """
          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
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      date: 2024-10-20 04:29:49.0 +02:00
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      date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
  +body: """
    > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
    \n
    My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
    \n
    The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
    """
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Show voter details
135 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
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    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
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          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
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    > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
    \n
    My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
    \n
    The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
    """
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Show voter details
136 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
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    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
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    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
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          Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
          \n
          I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
          \n
          Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
          """
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  +body: """
    > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
    \n
    My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
    \n
    The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
    """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
138 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
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      date: 2024-10-19 07:11:40.0 +02:00
    }
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1641 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
        +body: """
          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        ]
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        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2238 …}
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        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6588545"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1728864228 {#2239
          date: 2024-10-14 02:03:48.0 +02:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706310212 {#2240
          date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 343318
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243}
    ]
    -id: 33332
    -titleTs: "'bottleneck':5 'file':2 'linux':1 'speed':4 'transfer':3"
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    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1706394465
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7965088"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729391389 {#1637
      date: 2024-10-20 04:29:49.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706308065 {#1643
      date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
    }
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2247 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
  +body: """
    Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
    \n
    I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
    \n
    Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 1
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1706313040 {#2245
    date: 2024-01-27 00:50:40.0 +01:00
  }
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  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
    "@d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2255 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2251 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2285 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2287 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2142 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2039 …}
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  +ranking: 0
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  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6589715"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706313040 {#2248
    date: 2024-01-27 00:50:40.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 343392
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
139 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: false
    +commentCount: 12
    +favouriteCount: 43
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
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      date: 2024-10-19 07:11:40.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1641 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1665 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1582 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1551 …}
    +children: [
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2236
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
        +body: """
          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 3
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1706310212 {#2242
          date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
        }
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        ]
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        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2238 …}
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2259 …}
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        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2250 …}
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          date: 2024-10-14 02:03:48.0 +02:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706310212 {#2240
          date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 343318
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243}
    ]
    -id: 33332
    -titleTs: "'bottleneck':5 'file':2 'linux':1 'speed':4 'transfer':3"
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    +cross: false
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    +ranking: 1706394465
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://midwest.social/post/7965088"
    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729391389 {#1637
      date: 2024-10-20 04:29:49.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706308065 {#1643
      date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2247 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
  +body: """
    Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
    \n
    I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
    \n
    Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1706313040 {#2245
    date: 2024-01-27 00:50:40.0 +01:00
  }
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  +mentions: [
    "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
    "@d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2255 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2251 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2285 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2287 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2142 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2039 …}
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  +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6589715"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706313040 {#2248
    date: 2024-01-27 00:50:40.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 343392
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
140 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#1460
    +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1640 …}
    +slug: "Linux-file-transfer-speed-bottlenecks"
    +title: "Linux file transfer speed bottlenecks?"
    +url: null
    +body: """
      I’m currently watching the progress of a 4tB rsync file transfer, and i’m curious why the speeds are less than the theoretical read/write maximum speeds of the drives involved with the transfer. I know there’s a lot that can effect transfer speeds, so I guess i’m not asking why my transfer itself isn’t going faster. I’m more just curious what the bottlenecks could be typically?\n
      \n
      Assuming a file transfer between 2 physical drives, and:\n
      \n
      - Both drives are internal SATA III drives with 5.0GB/s 5.0Gb/s read/write 210Mb/s (this was the mistake: I was reading the sata III protocol speed as the disk speed)\n
      - files are being transferred using a simple rsync command\n
      - there are no other processes running\n
      \n
      What would be the likely bottlenecks? Could the motherboard/processor likely limit the speed? The available memory? Or the file structure of the files themselves (whether they are fragmented on the volumes or not)?
      """
    +type: "article"
    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: false
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      date: 2024-10-19 07:11:40.0 +02:00
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
        +body: """
          > SATA III is gigabit, so the max speed is actually 600MB/s.\n
          \n
          My mistake, though still, a 4tb transfer should take less than 2hr at 5Gb/s (**IN THEORY**) Thank you @Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me for pointing this out a second time elsewhere: 6Gb/s is what the sata 3 interface is capable of, NOT what the DRIVE is capable of. The marketing material for this drive has clearly psyched me out, the actual transfer speed is 210Mb/s\n
          \n
          The filesystem is EXT4 and shared as a SMB… OMV has a fair amount of ram allocated to it, like 16gb or something gratuitous. I’m guessing the way rsync does it’s transfers is the culprit, and I honestly can’t complain because the integrity of the transfer is crucial.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 3
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1706310212 {#2242
          date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
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          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
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          "@archomrade@midwest.social"
          "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2226 …}
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        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2249 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2259 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2244 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2250 …}
        -id: 343318
        -bodyTs: "'16gb':93 '210mb/s':72 '2hr':23 '3':44 '4tb':17 '5gb/s':25 '600mb/s':11 '6gb/s':39 'actual':10,68 'alloc':89 'amount':86 'capabl':47,54 'clear':63 'complain':115 'crucial':123 'culprit':109 'drive':52,61 'elsewher':38 'ext4':76 'fair':85 'filesystem':74 'gigabit':4 'gratuit':96 'guess':99 'honest':112 'iii':2 'integr':118 'interfac':45 'less':21 'like':92 'm':98 'market':57 'materi':58 'max':7 'max_p@lemmy.max-p.me':30 'mistak':13 'omv':82 'point':32 'psych':64 'ram':88 'rsync':102 'sata':1,43 'second':36 'share':78 'smb':81 'someth':95 'speed':8,70 'still':15 'take':20 'thank':28 'theori':27 'though':14 'time':37 'transfer':18,69,106,121 'way':101"
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        +apId: "https://midwest.social/comment/6588545"
        +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1728864228 {#2239
          date: 2024-10-14 02:03:48.0 +02:00
        }
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706310212 {#2240
          date: 2024-01-27 00:03:32.0 +01:00
        }
        +"title": 343318
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2243}
    ]
    -id: 33332
    -titleTs: "'bottleneck':5 'file':2 'linux':1 'speed':4 'transfer':3"
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    +downVotes: 0
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729391389 {#1637
      date: 2024-10-20 04:29:49.0 +02:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706308065 {#1643
      date: 2024-01-26 23:27:45.0 +01:00
    }
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1656 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2247 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2233 …}
  +body: """
    Thanks, corrected my comment above.\n
    \n
    I’m interested in ksmbd… I chose SMB simply because I was using it across lunix/windows/mac devices and I was using OMV for managing it, but that doesn’t mean I couldn’t switch to something better.\n
    \n
    Honestly though, I don’t need faster transfers typically, I just happen to be switching out a drive right now. SMB through OMV has been perfectly sufficient otherwise.
    """
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  +isAdult: false
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    date: 2024-01-27 00:50:40.0 +01:00
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    "@archomrade@midwest.social"
    "@Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me"
    "@d3Xt3r@lemmy.nz"
  ]
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  -id: 343392
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706313040 {#2248
    date: 2024-01-27 00:50:40.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 343392
}
 
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141 DENIED ROLE_ADMIN 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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142 DENIED ROLE_MODERATOR 
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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