| 1 |
DENIED
|
ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
| 2 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2114 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "Switched-from-Ubuntu-to-Debian-yesterday"
+title: "Switched from Ubuntu to Debian yesterday"
+url: null
+body: """
Why switch?\n
-----------\n
\n
I played with the idea of switching for quite a while. Having switched my daily driver from Windows maybe 6-9 Months ago I made many mistakes in the meantime.\n
\n
Good and bad\n
------------\n
\n
This may have led to a diminshed experience with ubuntu but all in all, I was very pleased to see that Linux works as a daily driver. Still, I was unhappy with the kind of dumbed down gnome experience.\n
\n
Problems\n
--------\n
\n
There were errors neither I nor people I asked could fix and the snap situation on ubuntu (just the fact that they’re proprietary, nothing else).\n
\n
Installation\n
------------\n
\n
Installing debian (and kde) was easier and harder than I expected. The download mirror I used must not have been great although its very close to my location because it took ages although my internet connections is good.\n
\n
Apps\n
----\n
\n
Since I switched to Linux, I toned down my app diet a lot. Installing all my apps from ubuntu was as easy as writing a short list and going through discover. Later I added flatpak which gave me a couple apps not available through discover (such as fluffychat). The last two I copied directly as appimages.\n
\n
Games\n
-----\n
\n
I was scared that the „old kernel“ of stable debian would be a problem. As it turns out, everthing works great so far, a lot better than on ubuntu which might or might not be my fault.\n
\n
Instability\n
-----------\n
\n
Kde does have some quirks that irritate me a bit like installing timeshift (because I tried network backups which dont work with it and the native backup solution does not seem to accept my sambashare) led to a window I could only close by rebooting.\n
\n
Boot time\n
---------\n
\n
What does feel a bit odd is the boot process. After my bios splash, it shows „welcome to grub“ and then switches to the debian start menu for 3 seconds or so, then shows some terminal stuff and then starts kde splash and then login. This feels a lot longer than ubuntu did. Its probably easy to change in some config but its also something that should be obvious.\n
\n
Summary\n
-------\n
\n
So far I‘m incredibly happy although I ran into initramfs already probably because of timeshift which I threw out again. I might do a manual backup if nothing else works. My games dont freeze or stutter which is nice. All apps I had on ubuntu now work on debian and no snaps at all.\n
\n
**TL;DR:** If you feel adventurous, debian and kde are a pretty awesome mix and rid you of the proprietary ubuntu snap store. It also doesnt tell you that you can get security upgrades if you subscribe to ubuntu pro. Works the same if not better.
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
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+hasEmbed: false
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+lastActive: DateTime @1729557959 {#2347
date: 2024-10-22 02:45:59.0 +02:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2236 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2246 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Unfortunately Debian stable doesn’t ship our bugfix releases after the major Debian version gets tagged - KDE Plasma in Debian is currently at 5.27.5, and 5.27.10 was released upstream two months ago.\n
\n
In other words, you’ll be experiencing bugs that have long been fixed… I’d advise to stay away from Debian for KDE Plasma because of that. If you want a Debian based distro with a good KDE Plasma experience, KUbuntu is likely a better choice, even with forced snaps. If you don’t need Debian though I’d recommend taking a look at Fedora KDE or Arch (derivatives).
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 8
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1729108902 {#2089
date: 2024-10-16 22:01:42.0 +02:00
}
+ip: null
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+mentions: [
"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
+nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2093 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2094 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2140 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2133 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2131 …}
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+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/comment/6888120"
+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729029494 {#2088
date: 2024-10-15 23:58:14.0 +02:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706391333 {#2095
date: 2024-01-27 22:35:33.0 +01:00
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]
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-titleTs: "'debian':5 'switch':1 'ubuntu':3 'yesterday':6"
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+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1706436956
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.giftedmc.com/post/192020"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706350556 {#2297
date: 2024-01-27 11:15:56.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
| 3 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2114 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "Switched-from-Ubuntu-to-Debian-yesterday"
+title: "Switched from Ubuntu to Debian yesterday"
+url: null
+body: """
Why switch?\n
-----------\n
\n
I played with the idea of switching for quite a while. Having switched my daily driver from Windows maybe 6-9 Months ago I made many mistakes in the meantime.\n
\n
Good and bad\n
------------\n
\n
This may have led to a diminshed experience with ubuntu but all in all, I was very pleased to see that Linux works as a daily driver. Still, I was unhappy with the kind of dumbed down gnome experience.\n
\n
Problems\n
--------\n
\n
There were errors neither I nor people I asked could fix and the snap situation on ubuntu (just the fact that they’re proprietary, nothing else).\n
\n
Installation\n
------------\n
\n
Installing debian (and kde) was easier and harder than I expected. The download mirror I used must not have been great although its very close to my location because it took ages although my internet connections is good.\n
\n
Apps\n
----\n
\n
Since I switched to Linux, I toned down my app diet a lot. Installing all my apps from ubuntu was as easy as writing a short list and going through discover. Later I added flatpak which gave me a couple apps not available through discover (such as fluffychat). The last two I copied directly as appimages.\n
\n
Games\n
-----\n
\n
I was scared that the „old kernel“ of stable debian would be a problem. As it turns out, everthing works great so far, a lot better than on ubuntu which might or might not be my fault.\n
\n
Instability\n
-----------\n
\n
Kde does have some quirks that irritate me a bit like installing timeshift (because I tried network backups which dont work with it and the native backup solution does not seem to accept my sambashare) led to a window I could only close by rebooting.\n
\n
Boot time\n
---------\n
\n
What does feel a bit odd is the boot process. After my bios splash, it shows „welcome to grub“ and then switches to the debian start menu for 3 seconds or so, then shows some terminal stuff and then starts kde splash and then login. This feels a lot longer than ubuntu did. Its probably easy to change in some config but its also something that should be obvious.\n
\n
Summary\n
-------\n
\n
So far I‘m incredibly happy although I ran into initramfs already probably because of timeshift which I threw out again. I might do a manual backup if nothing else works. My games dont freeze or stutter which is nice. All apps I had on ubuntu now work on debian and no snaps at all.\n
\n
**TL;DR:** If you feel adventurous, debian and kde are a pretty awesome mix and rid you of the proprietary ubuntu snap store. It also doesnt tell you that you can get security upgrades if you subscribe to ubuntu pro. Works the same if not better.
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
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date: 2024-10-22 02:45:59.0 +02:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
+tags: null
+mentions: null
+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
+reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2193 …}
+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2236 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
+badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2246 …}
+children: [
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Unfortunately Debian stable doesn’t ship our bugfix releases after the major Debian version gets tagged - KDE Plasma in Debian is currently at 5.27.5, and 5.27.10 was released upstream two months ago.\n
\n
In other words, you’ll be experiencing bugs that have long been fixed… I’d advise to stay away from Debian for KDE Plasma because of that. If you want a Debian based distro with a good KDE Plasma experience, KUbuntu is likely a better choice, even with forced snaps. If you don’t need Debian though I’d recommend taking a look at Fedora KDE or Arch (derivatives).
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
+favouriteCount: 8
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1729108902 {#2089
date: 2024-10-16 22:01:42.0 +02:00
}
+ip: null
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+mentions: [
"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
]
+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
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-id: 345705
-bodyTs: "'5.27.10':26 '5.27.5':24 'advis':48 'ago':32 'arch':100 'away':51 'base':65 'better':77 'bug':40 'bugfix':8 'choic':78 'current':22 'd':47,91 'debian':2,13,20,53,64,88 'deriv':101 'distro':66 'doesn':4 'even':79 'experi':72 'experienc':39 'fedora':97 'fix':45 'forc':81 'get':15 'good':69 'kde':17,55,70,98 'kubuntu':73 'like':75 'll':37 'long':43 'look':95 'major':12 'month':31 'need':87 'plasma':18,56,71 'recommend':92 'releas':9,28 'ship':6 'snap':82 'stabl':3 'stay':50 'tag':16 'take':93 'though':89 'two':30 'unfortun':1 'upstream':29 'version':14 'want':62 'word':35"
+ranking: 0
+commentCount: 0
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/comment/6888120"
+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729029494 {#2088
date: 2024-10-15 23:58:14.0 +02:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706391333 {#2095
date: 2024-01-27 22:35:33.0 +01:00
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]
-id: 33404
-titleTs: "'debian':5 'switch':1 'ubuntu':3 'yesterday':6"
-bodyTs: "'-9':23 '3':312 '6':22 'accept':269 'ad':175 'adventur':414 'age':134 'ago':25 'alreadi':365 'also':347,433 'although':124,135,360 'app':141,151,158,182,395 'appimag':197 'ask':84 'avail':184 'awesom':421 'backup':254,263,380 'bad':35 'better':224,454 'bio':296 'bit':246,288 'boot':282,292 'chang':341 'close':127,279 'config':344 'connect':138 'copi':194 'could':85,277 'coupl':181 'daili':17,61 'debian':104,208,308,403,415 'diet':152 'diminsh':42 'direct':195 'discov':172,186 'doesnt':434 'dont':256,387 'download':115 'dr':410 'driver':18,62 'dumb':71 'easi':163,339 'easier':108 'els':101,383 'error':78 'everth':217 'expect':113 'experi':43,74 'fact':95 'far':221,355 'fault':235 'feel':286,330,413 'fix':86 'flatpak':176 'fluffychat':189 'freez':388 'game':198,386 'gave':178 'get':440 'gnome':73 'go':170 'good':33,140 'great':123,219 'grub':302 'happi':359 'harder':110 'idea':7 'incred':358 'initramf':364 'instabl':236 'instal':102,103,155,248 'internet':137 'irrit':243 'kde':106,237,324,417 'kernel':205 'kind':69 'last':191 'later':173 'led':39,272 'like':247 'linux':57,146 'list':168 'locat':130 'login':328 'longer':333 'lot':154,223,332 'm':357 'made':27 'mani':28 'manual':379 'may':37 'mayb':21 'meantim':32 'menu':310 'might':229,231,376 'mirror':116 'mistak':29 'mix':422 'month':24 'must':119 'nativ':262 'neither':79 'network':253 'nice':393 'noth':100,382 'obvious':352 'odd':289 'old':204 'peopl':82 'play':4 'pleas':53 'pretti':420 'pro':448 'probabl':338,366 'problem':75,212 'process':293 'proprietari':99,428 'quirk':241 'quit':11 'ran':362 're':98 'reboot':281 'rid':424 'sambashar':271 'scare':201 'second':313 'secur':441 'see':55 'seem':267 'short':167 'show':299,317 'sinc':142 'situat':90 'snap':89,406,430 'solut':264 'someth':348 'splash':297,325 'stabl':207 'start':309,323 'still':63 'store':431 'stuff':320 'stutter':390 'subscrib':445 'summari':353 'switch':2,9,15,144,305 'tell':435 'termin':319 'threw':372 'time':283 'timeshift':249,369 'tl':409 'tone':148 'took':133 'tri':252 'turn':215 'two':192 'ubuntu':45,92,160,227,335,399,429,447 'unhappi':66 'upgrad':442 'use':118 'welcom':300 'window':20,275 'work':58,218,257,384,401,449 'would':209 'write':165"
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706350556 {#2297
date: 2024-01-27 11:15:56.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
| 4 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2114 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "Switched-from-Ubuntu-to-Debian-yesterday"
+title: "Switched from Ubuntu to Debian yesterday"
+url: null
+body: """
Why switch?\n
-----------\n
\n
I played with the idea of switching for quite a while. Having switched my daily driver from Windows maybe 6-9 Months ago I made many mistakes in the meantime.\n
\n
Good and bad\n
------------\n
\n
This may have led to a diminshed experience with ubuntu but all in all, I was very pleased to see that Linux works as a daily driver. Still, I was unhappy with the kind of dumbed down gnome experience.\n
\n
Problems\n
--------\n
\n
There were errors neither I nor people I asked could fix and the snap situation on ubuntu (just the fact that they’re proprietary, nothing else).\n
\n
Installation\n
------------\n
\n
Installing debian (and kde) was easier and harder than I expected. The download mirror I used must not have been great although its very close to my location because it took ages although my internet connections is good.\n
\n
Apps\n
----\n
\n
Since I switched to Linux, I toned down my app diet a lot. Installing all my apps from ubuntu was as easy as writing a short list and going through discover. Later I added flatpak which gave me a couple apps not available through discover (such as fluffychat). The last two I copied directly as appimages.\n
\n
Games\n
-----\n
\n
I was scared that the „old kernel“ of stable debian would be a problem. As it turns out, everthing works great so far, a lot better than on ubuntu which might or might not be my fault.\n
\n
Instability\n
-----------\n
\n
Kde does have some quirks that irritate me a bit like installing timeshift (because I tried network backups which dont work with it and the native backup solution does not seem to accept my sambashare) led to a window I could only close by rebooting.\n
\n
Boot time\n
---------\n
\n
What does feel a bit odd is the boot process. After my bios splash, it shows „welcome to grub“ and then switches to the debian start menu for 3 seconds or so, then shows some terminal stuff and then starts kde splash and then login. This feels a lot longer than ubuntu did. Its probably easy to change in some config but its also something that should be obvious.\n
\n
Summary\n
-------\n
\n
So far I‘m incredibly happy although I ran into initramfs already probably because of timeshift which I threw out again. I might do a manual backup if nothing else works. My games dont freeze or stutter which is nice. All apps I had on ubuntu now work on debian and no snaps at all.\n
\n
**TL;DR:** If you feel adventurous, debian and kde are a pretty awesome mix and rid you of the proprietary ubuntu snap store. It also doesnt tell you that you can get security upgrades if you subscribe to ubuntu pro. Works the same if not better.
"""
+type: "article"
+lang: "en"
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+hasEmbed: false
+commentCount: 117
+favouriteCount: 184
+score: 0
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+sticky: false
+lastActive: DateTime @1729557959 {#2347
date: 2024-10-22 02:45:59.0 +02:00
}
+ip: null
+adaAmount: 0
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+comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2201 …}
+votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2206 …}
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+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2236 …}
+notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2235 …}
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091 …2}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Unfortunately Debian stable doesn’t ship our bugfix releases after the major Debian version gets tagged - KDE Plasma in Debian is currently at 5.27.5, and 5.27.10 was released upstream two months ago.\n
\n
In other words, you’ll be experiencing bugs that have long been fixed… I’d advise to stay away from Debian for KDE Plasma because of that. If you want a Debian based distro with a good KDE Plasma experience, KUbuntu is likely a better choice, even with forced snaps. If you don’t need Debian though I’d recommend taking a look at Fedora KDE or Arch (derivatives).
"""
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+favouriteCount: 8
+score: 0
+lastActive: DateTime @1729108902 {#2089
date: 2024-10-16 22:01:42.0 +02:00
}
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"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
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+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://discuss.tchncs.de/comment/6888120"
+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729029494 {#2088
date: 2024-10-15 23:58:14.0 +02:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706391333 {#2095
date: 2024-01-27 22:35:33.0 +01:00
}
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}
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-titleTs: "'debian':5 'switch':1 'ubuntu':3 'yesterday':6"
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+cross: false
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+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706350556 {#2297
date: 2024-01-27 11:15:56.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
} |
|
Show voter details
|
| 5 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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Show voter details
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| 6 |
DENIED
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moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2114 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "Switched-from-Ubuntu-to-Debian-yesterday"
+title: "Switched from Ubuntu to Debian yesterday"
+url: null
+body: """
Why switch?\n
-----------\n
\n
I played with the idea of switching for quite a while. Having switched my daily driver from Windows maybe 6-9 Months ago I made many mistakes in the meantime.\n
\n
Good and bad\n
------------\n
\n
This may have led to a diminshed experience with ubuntu but all in all, I was very pleased to see that Linux works as a daily driver. Still, I was unhappy with the kind of dumbed down gnome experience.\n
\n
Problems\n
--------\n
\n
There were errors neither I nor people I asked could fix and the snap situation on ubuntu (just the fact that they’re proprietary, nothing else).\n
\n
Installation\n
------------\n
\n
Installing debian (and kde) was easier and harder than I expected. The download mirror I used must not have been great although its very close to my location because it took ages although my internet connections is good.\n
\n
Apps\n
----\n
\n
Since I switched to Linux, I toned down my app diet a lot. Installing all my apps from ubuntu was as easy as writing a short list and going through discover. Later I added flatpak which gave me a couple apps not available through discover (such as fluffychat). The last two I copied directly as appimages.\n
\n
Games\n
-----\n
\n
I was scared that the „old kernel“ of stable debian would be a problem. As it turns out, everthing works great so far, a lot better than on ubuntu which might or might not be my fault.\n
\n
Instability\n
-----------\n
\n
Kde does have some quirks that irritate me a bit like installing timeshift (because I tried network backups which dont work with it and the native backup solution does not seem to accept my sambashare) led to a window I could only close by rebooting.\n
\n
Boot time\n
---------\n
\n
What does feel a bit odd is the boot process. After my bios splash, it shows „welcome to grub“ and then switches to the debian start menu for 3 seconds or so, then shows some terminal stuff and then starts kde splash and then login. This feels a lot longer than ubuntu did. Its probably easy to change in some config but its also something that should be obvious.\n
\n
Summary\n
-------\n
\n
So far I‘m incredibly happy although I ran into initramfs already probably because of timeshift which I threw out again. I might do a manual backup if nothing else works. My games dont freeze or stutter which is nice. All apps I had on ubuntu now work on debian and no snaps at all.\n
\n
**TL;DR:** If you feel adventurous, debian and kde are a pretty awesome mix and rid you of the proprietary ubuntu snap store. It also doesnt tell you that you can get security upgrades if you subscribe to ubuntu pro. Works the same if not better.
"""
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date: 2024-10-22 02:45:59.0 +02:00
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
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-titleTs: "'debian':5 'switch':1 'ubuntu':3 'yesterday':6"
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+cross: false
+upVotes: 0
+downVotes: 0
+ranking: 1706436956
+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.giftedmc.com/post/192020"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706350556 {#2297
date: 2024-01-27 11:15:56.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Unfortunately Debian stable doesn’t ship our bugfix releases after the major Debian version gets tagged - KDE Plasma in Debian is currently at 5.27.5, and 5.27.10 was released upstream two months ago.\n
\n
In other words, you’ll be experiencing bugs that have long been fixed… I’d advise to stay away from Debian for KDE Plasma because of that. If you want a Debian based distro with a good KDE Plasma experience, KUbuntu is likely a better choice, even with forced snaps. If you don’t need Debian though I’d recommend taking a look at Fedora KDE or Arch (derivatives).
"""
+lang: "en"
+isAdult: false
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date: 2024-10-16 22:01:42.0 +02:00
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+mentions: [
"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
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+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729029494 {#2088
date: 2024-10-15 23:58:14.0 +02:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706391333 {#2095
date: 2024-01-27 22:35:33.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 345705
} |
|
Show voter details
|
| 7 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2114 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "Switched-from-Ubuntu-to-Debian-yesterday"
+title: "Switched from Ubuntu to Debian yesterday"
+url: null
+body: """
Why switch?\n
-----------\n
\n
I played with the idea of switching for quite a while. Having switched my daily driver from Windows maybe 6-9 Months ago I made many mistakes in the meantime.\n
\n
Good and bad\n
------------\n
\n
This may have led to a diminshed experience with ubuntu but all in all, I was very pleased to see that Linux works as a daily driver. Still, I was unhappy with the kind of dumbed down gnome experience.\n
\n
Problems\n
--------\n
\n
There were errors neither I nor people I asked could fix and the snap situation on ubuntu (just the fact that they’re proprietary, nothing else).\n
\n
Installation\n
------------\n
\n
Installing debian (and kde) was easier and harder than I expected. The download mirror I used must not have been great although its very close to my location because it took ages although my internet connections is good.\n
\n
Apps\n
----\n
\n
Since I switched to Linux, I toned down my app diet a lot. Installing all my apps from ubuntu was as easy as writing a short list and going through discover. Later I added flatpak which gave me a couple apps not available through discover (such as fluffychat). The last two I copied directly as appimages.\n
\n
Games\n
-----\n
\n
I was scared that the „old kernel“ of stable debian would be a problem. As it turns out, everthing works great so far, a lot better than on ubuntu which might or might not be my fault.\n
\n
Instability\n
-----------\n
\n
Kde does have some quirks that irritate me a bit like installing timeshift (because I tried network backups which dont work with it and the native backup solution does not seem to accept my sambashare) led to a window I could only close by rebooting.\n
\n
Boot time\n
---------\n
\n
What does feel a bit odd is the boot process. After my bios splash, it shows „welcome to grub“ and then switches to the debian start menu for 3 seconds or so, then shows some terminal stuff and then starts kde splash and then login. This feels a lot longer than ubuntu did. Its probably easy to change in some config but its also something that should be obvious.\n
\n
Summary\n
-------\n
\n
So far I‘m incredibly happy although I ran into initramfs already probably because of timeshift which I threw out again. I might do a manual backup if nothing else works. My games dont freeze or stutter which is nice. All apps I had on ubuntu now work on debian and no snaps at all.\n
\n
**TL;DR:** If you feel adventurous, debian and kde are a pretty awesome mix and rid you of the proprietary ubuntu snap store. It also doesnt tell you that you can get security upgrades if you subscribe to ubuntu pro. Works the same if not better.
"""
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date: 2024-10-22 02:45:59.0 +02:00
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
]
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+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://lemmy.giftedmc.com/post/192020"
+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706350556 {#2297
date: 2024-01-27 11:15:56.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
Unfortunately Debian stable doesn’t ship our bugfix releases after the major Debian version gets tagged - KDE Plasma in Debian is currently at 5.27.5, and 5.27.10 was released upstream two months ago.\n
\n
In other words, you’ll be experiencing bugs that have long been fixed… I’d advise to stay away from Debian for KDE Plasma because of that. If you want a Debian based distro with a good KDE Plasma experience, KUbuntu is likely a better choice, even with forced snaps. If you don’t need Debian though I’d recommend taking a look at Fedora KDE or Arch (derivatives).
"""
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date: 2024-10-16 22:01:42.0 +02:00
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"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
"@haui_lemmy@lemmy.giftedmc.com"
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+ranking: 0
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+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1729029494 {#2088
date: 2024-10-15 23:58:14.0 +02:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1706391333 {#2095
date: 2024-01-27 22:35:33.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 345705
} |
|
Show voter details
|
| 8 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2091
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2114 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "Switched-from-Ubuntu-to-Debian-yesterday"
+title: "Switched from Ubuntu to Debian yesterday"
+url: null
+body: """
Why switch?\n
-----------\n
\n
I played with the idea of switching for quite a while. Having switched my daily driver from Windows maybe 6-9 Months ago I made many mistakes in the meantime.\n
\n
Good and bad\n
------------\n
\n
This may have led to a diminshed experience with ubuntu but all in all, I was very pleased to see that Linux works as a daily driver. Still, I was unhappy with the kind of dumbed down gnome experience.\n
\n
Problems\n
--------\n
\n
There were errors neither I nor people I asked could fix and the snap situation on ubuntu (just the fact that they’re proprietary, nothing else).\n
\n
Installation\n
------------\n
\n
Installing debian (and kde) was easier and harder than I expected. The download mirror I used must not have been great although its very close to my location because it took ages although my internet connections is good.\n
\n
Apps\n
----\n
\n
Since I switched to Linux, I toned down my app diet a lot. Installing all my apps from ubuntu was as easy as writing a short list and going through discover. Later I added flatpak which gave me a couple apps not available through discover (such as fluffychat). The last two I copied directly as appimages.\n
\n
Games\n
-----\n
\n
I was scared that the „old kernel“ of stable debian would be a problem. As it turns out, everthing works great so far, a lot better than on ubuntu which might or might not be my fault.\n
\n
Instability\n
-----------\n
\n
Kde does have some quirks that irritate me a bit like installing timeshift (because I tried network backups which dont work with it and the native backup solution does not seem to accept my sambashare) led to a window I could only close by rebooting.\n
\n
Boot time\n
---------\n
\n
What does feel a bit odd is the boot process. After my bios splash, it shows „welcome to grub“ and then switches to the debian start menu for 3 seconds or so, then shows some terminal stuff and then starts kde splash and then login. This feels a lot longer than ubuntu did. Its probably easy to change in some config but its also something that should be obvious.\n
\n
Summary\n
-------\n
\n
So far I‘m incredibly happy although I ran into initramfs already probably because of timeshift which I threw out again. I might do a manual backup if nothing else works. My games dont freeze or stutter which is nice. All apps I had on ubuntu now work on debian and no snaps at all.\n
\n
**TL;DR:** If you feel adventurous, debian and kde are a pretty awesome mix and rid you of the proprietary ubuntu snap store. It also doesnt tell you that you can get security upgrades if you subscribe to ubuntu pro. Works the same if not better.
"""
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Unfortunately Debian stable doesn’t ship our bugfix releases after the major Debian version gets tagged - KDE Plasma in Debian is currently at 5.27.5, and 5.27.10 was released upstream two months ago.\n
\n
In other words, you’ll be experiencing bugs that have long been fixed… I’d advise to stay away from Debian for KDE Plasma because of that. If you want a Debian based distro with a good KDE Plasma experience, KUbuntu is likely a better choice, even with forced snaps. If you don’t need Debian though I’d recommend taking a look at Fedora KDE or Arch (derivatives).
"""
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Show voter details
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| 9 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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Show voter details
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| 10 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2076
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Hi everyone, I’ve neen having this issue when running KDE wayland with multiple screen on my Thinkpad W530. I’m using the nouveau driver.\n
\n
The primary monitor is fine, but the secondary one is glitching.\n
\n
This is tested on Gentoo as well as Debian. I know it’s not hardware issue because it runs fine on X11.\n
\n
Anyone have any idea about this issue?\n
\n
Edit: I should probably mention that I was using DisplayPort in the photo, but I also tried VGA and it gave the same result.\n
\n
Edit1: I was able to narrow down the problem somewhat. Switching the BIOS setting to “Discrete only” for the GPU (thanks coreboot!) seems to make the glitching go away! This means the Optimus would be to blame.
"""
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It’s a driver bug, it doesn’t reject buffers that the GPU can’t actually handle correctly.\n
\n
We’ve switched to a different way of doing multi-gpu in Plasma 6 that hits at least fewer such bugs.
"""
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Show voter details
|
| 11 |
DENIED
|
edit
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2076
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Hi everyone, I’ve neen having this issue when running KDE wayland with multiple screen on my Thinkpad W530. I’m using the nouveau driver.\n
\n
The primary monitor is fine, but the secondary one is glitching.\n
\n
This is tested on Gentoo as well as Debian. I know it’s not hardware issue because it runs fine on X11.\n
\n
Anyone have any idea about this issue?\n
\n
Edit: I should probably mention that I was using DisplayPort in the photo, but I also tried VGA and it gave the same result.\n
\n
Edit1: I was able to narrow down the problem somewhat. Switching the BIOS setting to “Discrete only” for the GPU (thanks coreboot!) seems to make the glitching go away! This means the Optimus would be to blame.
"""
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It’s a driver bug, it doesn’t reject buffers that the GPU can’t actually handle correctly.\n
\n
We’ve switched to a different way of doing multi-gpu in Plasma 6 that hits at least fewer such bugs.
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Show voter details
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| 12 |
DENIED
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moderate
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2076
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Hi everyone, I’ve neen having this issue when running KDE wayland with multiple screen on my Thinkpad W530. I’m using the nouveau driver.\n
\n
The primary monitor is fine, but the secondary one is glitching.\n
\n
This is tested on Gentoo as well as Debian. I know it’s not hardware issue because it runs fine on X11.\n
\n
Anyone have any idea about this issue?\n
\n
Edit: I should probably mention that I was using DisplayPort in the photo, but I also tried VGA and it gave the same result.\n
\n
Edit1: I was able to narrow down the problem somewhat. Switching the BIOS setting to “Discrete only” for the GPU (thanks coreboot!) seems to make the glitching go away! This means the Optimus would be to blame.
"""
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It’s a driver bug, it doesn’t reject buffers that the GPU can’t actually handle correctly.\n
\n
We’ve switched to a different way of doing multi-gpu in Plasma 6 that hits at least fewer such bugs.
"""
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|
Show voter details
|
| 13 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
|
Show voter details
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| 14 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078
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Hi everyone, I’ve neen having this issue when running KDE wayland with multiple screen on my Thinkpad W530. I’m using the nouveau driver.\n
\n
The primary monitor is fine, but the secondary one is glitching.\n
\n
This is tested on Gentoo as well as Debian. I know it’s not hardware issue because it runs fine on X11.\n
\n
Anyone have any idea about this issue?\n
\n
Edit: I should probably mention that I was using DisplayPort in the photo, but I also tried VGA and it gave the same result.\n
\n
Edit1: I was able to narrow down the problem somewhat. Switching the BIOS setting to “Discrete only” for the GPU (thanks coreboot!) seems to make the glitching go away! This means the Optimus would be to blame.
"""
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| 15 |
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078
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Hi everyone, I’ve neen having this issue when running KDE wayland with multiple screen on my Thinkpad W530. I’m using the nouveau driver.\n
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\n
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\n
Anyone have any idea about this issue?\n
\n
Edit: I should probably mention that I was using DisplayPort in the photo, but I also tried VGA and it gave the same result.\n
\n
Edit1: I was able to narrow down the problem somewhat. Switching the BIOS setting to “Discrete only” for the GPU (thanks coreboot!) seems to make the glitching go away! This means the Optimus would be to blame.
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Show voter details
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| 16 |
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078
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Hi everyone, I’ve neen having this issue when running KDE wayland with multiple screen on my Thinkpad W530. I’m using the nouveau driver.\n
\n
The primary monitor is fine, but the secondary one is glitching.\n
\n
This is tested on Gentoo as well as Debian. I know it’s not hardware issue because it runs fine on X11.\n
\n
Anyone have any idea about this issue?\n
\n
Edit: I should probably mention that I was using DisplayPort in the photo, but I also tried VGA and it gave the same result.\n
\n
Edit1: I was able to narrow down the problem somewhat. Switching the BIOS setting to “Discrete only” for the GPU (thanks coreboot!) seems to make the glitching go away! This means the Optimus would be to blame.
"""
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| 19 |
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Show voter details
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| 20 |
DENIED
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Show voter details
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| 24 |
DENIED
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| 28 |
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| 29 |
DENIED
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Show voter details
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| 30 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2364
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| 31 |
DENIED
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2364
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Show voter details
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| 32 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2364
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Show voter details
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| 33 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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Show voter details
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| 34 |
DENIED
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moderate
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1737
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|
Show voter details
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| 35 |
DENIED
|
edit
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1737
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| 37 |
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ROLE_USER
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Show voter details
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Show voter details
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| 39 |
DENIED
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| 41 |
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Show voter details
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Show voter details
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| 44 |
DENIED
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1741
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Show voter details
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| 45 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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Show voter details
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| 46 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2457
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Show voter details
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| 47 |
DENIED
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2457
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Show voter details
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| 48 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2457
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+body: "No. Some people wanted to change it to that for Plasma 6, but on Xorg there’s apparently no way to make that happen, as the cursor is always decided on by the window you’re hovering over…"
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+body: "Thst might change with Flathub’s ambitions to become an actual app store though"
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1629
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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+body: """
> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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date: 2023-11-19 13:42:06.0 +01:00
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
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date: 2023-12-27 03:11:41.0 +01:00
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+cross: false
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+apId: "https://feddit.uk/post/4608014"
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date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2282
date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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…2
} |
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1629
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2149 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
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date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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…2
} |
|
Show voter details
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| 52 |
DENIED
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moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1629
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2149 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630}
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> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
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date: 2023-12-27 03:11:41.0 +01:00
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+cross: false
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+visibility: "visible "
+apId: "https://feddit.uk/post/4608014"
+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2255
date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
}
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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…2
}
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+body: """
> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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date: 2023-11-19 13:42:06.0 +01:00
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
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-id: 139702
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+editedAt: null
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700397726 {#1598
date: 2023-11-19 13:42:06.0 +01:00
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+"title": 139702
} |
|
Show voter details
|
| 55 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1629
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2149 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
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> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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+body: """
> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
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date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
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+body: """
> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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-id: 139702
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021}
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+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2255
date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2282
date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
}
+__isInitialized__: true
…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1628 …}
+body: """
> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
+lang: "en"
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date: 2023-12-27 03:11:41.0 +01:00
}
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@slembcke@lemmy.ml"
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+children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
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-id: 255401
-bodyTs: "'1':2 'annoy':104 'anyth':89,96 'approach':132 'believ':106 'bit':120 'close':41 'correspond':15 'current':130 'curs':37 'discuss':33 'doesn':93 'either':99 'els':44 'engin':51 'faster':121 'fix':134 'futur':111 'gamedev':53 'get':117,137 'glfw':48,92 'glorious':109 'got':29,40 'gtk':71 'handl':56,79 'heat':32 'hope':128 'issu':136 'later':141 'let':126 'merg':20 'mr':16,39 'oof':11 'opengl':84 'present':4 'pretti':103 'qt':72 'realist':45 'sdl':77 'sdl2':47 'sebastian':25 'second':3 'shell':75 'someon':43 'somewher':138 'sooner':139 'start':36 'still':6 'thought':13 'time':66 'timeout':5 'unless':46 'upstream':131 'use':55 'vulkan':91 'wayland':18,110 'whatev':50 'wish':114 'work':8 'worri':68 'would':116 'xdg':74 'xwayland':10"
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date: 2023-12-27 03:11:41.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 255401
} |
|
Show voter details
|
| 59 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1629
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2149 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
+url: null
+body: """
Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
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> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
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> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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+slug: "A-response-to-the-Boycott-Wayland-article"
+title: "A response to the "Boycott Wayland" article"
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Link to article: [gist.github.com/…/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f227…](https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9feb7c20257af5dd915e3a9f2d1f2277?permalink_comment_id=4749746)\n
\n
This OUTDATED article gets posted all the time. The full story is the guy is a massive FreeBSD fan so he is trying to convince more people to keep on using Xorg because he wants to make sure it isn’t abandoned. Reason for that being that Wayland is built with Linux in mind and would not work under FreeBSD without a lot of effort bwing put in as it uses some Linux-specific components or libraries.\n
\n
Let’s go through the article point by point:\n
\n
##### Wayland is broken by design:\n
\n
- *A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications*: Yes, because the compositor IS the server, window manager AND compositor at the same time.\n
- *You cannot do a lot of things*: What, like allowing Windows to see your keystrokes, which makes developing a keylogger absolutely trivial?\n
- *There is not /usr/bin/wayland*: Yes, because Wayland is a set of protocols, which a bunch of projects can implement as few or as many of, as they see fit, thus avoiding the issue of “unmaintainable mess” that has plagued Xorg for years.\n
- *It offloads work to the window manager*: Again, yes, that’s a part of its structure: do the protocols, then let the compositor implement them. That way, you have multiple implementations running simultaneously that are well integrated with their window managers and thus more efficient and performant. It also means that when a compositor suffers from too much cruft, we can just make a new one, while application developers wouldn’t really have anything to change because if their application works on Wayland, then it works on different compositors (unless it is made specifically for GNOME, or specifically for wlroots, like wlr-randr)\n
\n
…*so what works on DE 1, doesn’t necessarily work on DE 2*: True, because oftentimes, it doesn’t need to. Not implementing features can lead to a more lean and streamlined software solution. However, sometimes features are necessary and only implemented in some compositors. This usually happens because the universal solution is not ready. KDE are often known to do this with Plasma and KWin.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen recording applications*: Correction: The following screen recording applications were not built to support Wayland (because Wayland is new to them or they just decided not to, or they were either too busy or too irresponsible enough to realise Wayland is coming, and has been for over 10 years. In defence of the devs, they probably wanted to make sure Wayland will become stable enough, but it has been the default even on Debian for many years now, so…\n
\n
In terms of the applications, I’m not aware of many of them, and for this sort of application, I’m sire alot of work is required to change the graphical backend, so I understood that some smaller projects gave up, but OBS has been working on Wayland for quite a while. Is it perfect? I don’t think so, but back when Brodie Robertson was using Hyprland, he was recording his videos using OBS. This article is quite outdated.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks screen sharing applications*:\n
\n
As the update shows, Jitsi now does work on Wayland.\n
\n
Zoom only seemed to work on gnome, BUT if you open up the Link to the zoom issue and read through the comments, there is clearly a person that clearly states that they changed /etc/os-release from PureOS to debian and it worked for them, all because of some pointless limitations enforced by the Zoom developers. As the person posting the issue states “Currently, the zoom application has put an arbirtrary restriction on screensharing so it ONLY works on GNOME, when the api being used works on all wayland desktops.” Read that again. It’s a pointless restriction put there by the Zoom team because they couldn’t be bothered to test anything non-GNOME.\n
\n
And the last issue is a problem with the article writer’s own appimage. I don’t know about that one.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks automation software*\n
\n
As stated IN YOUR FACE, it is an application that works on X11 only. Yes, Wayland is not made to use such applications, but it doesn’t mean they can’t exist. Every heard of ydotool (remember that name)? Now you have.\n
\n
Next up, we have 3 issues about GNOME and KDE global menus (1 for GNOME, 2 for KDE). From the little I know about global menus and using these projects, as well as considering that they are both incredibly stable on Wayland and Fedora KDE will be dropping Xorg completely, I think it’s safe to assume these issues have probably been fixed. Please correct me if I’m wrong.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks AppImages that don’t ship a special QT plugin*: Great! Just ship the plugins then! Problem solved! Also, quote from the article: “However, there is a workaround: “AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode” (see below).”\n
- *Wayland breaks Redshift*: Once again, a program built for Xorg doesn’t always work on Wayland. Especially if it works with the compositor, like a colour temperature control application, or a wallpaper setter. The article quotes that “Redshift does not support Wayland since it offers no way to adjust the color temperature” which is not true, as proven by Redshift alternatives like Gammastep.\n
- *Wayland breaks global hotkeys*: I present to you: Hyprland (where you can get global hotkeys). Now, it is normally not allowed by design, as a security measure, but Hyprland has not allowed that to stop them from implementing a solution where you can choose keys that will be passed on to the application. Boom, problem solved. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem to be implemented anywhere else, as far as I know.\n
- *Wayland does not work for XFCE*: Come back to me in late 2024 after XFCE 4.20, which will introduce Wayland support, has been released. Also, [wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap](https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/wayland_roadmap)\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Nvidia Hardware*: It keeps on getting closer but is not there yet, or so I’ve heard. Apparently, the issue is with the proprietary drivers, as noveau works well. But I use AMD, so I’m only working off rumours and opinions here.\n
- *Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware*: Again, I’m using AMD, so I can’t confirm or deny this, but considering the Intel drivers are open source, and I’ve heard about many, many improvements made on the Intel side of things, I think it would be reasonable to assume it has been fixed.\n
\n
Edit: As multiple Intel users have pointed out in the comments, there seem to be no issues on Wayland with Intel hardware.\n
\n
- *Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root*: This one has been crossed out as the article writer admits there is a solution\n
- *Wayland is biased towards Linux and breaks BSD*: Arguments seem valid, and I’m guessing, are correct. This one is likely true and will remain so for the foreseeable future.\n
\n
Edit: And yet, it seems that there are Wayland compositors for FreeBSD, so the above might only be true for OpenBSD and others.\n
\n
- *Wayland complicates server side decorations*: From what I’ve heard, this is true, mainly something to do with some GNOME agenda, as the article states. I think that one is true.\n
- *Wayland breaks windows raising/activating themselves*: The linked issue is closed and seems to be resolved. There is a mention of a WIP protocol at the time (2019) that woukd fix this. I had difficulty following the discussion, but I think this has been fixed.\n
- *Wayland breaks RescueTime*: Because RescueTime depends on X11-only tools like xprop.\n
- *Wayland breaks window manager*: What you’re describing is Wayland breaking X11-only tools for doing various tasks in a window manager. They are X11 tools, so of course they don’t work on Wayland. I’m not sure if there are alternatives, but I’d guess there probably are. I know for a fact that Xrandr has alternatives like wlr-randr and kanshi for wlroots.\n
- *Wayland requires {instert WM here} to implement Xorg-like functionality*:Yes, it does.\n
\n
Quote from article: "As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. "\n
\n
DEs: GNOME, KDE, MATE, XFCE, Cinnamon, Budgie, Enlightenment, and recently even Pantheon have either announced to start work on, have started work on, or already support Wayland.\n
\n
Window managers: Qtile is doing it. Xmonad wants to hire a dev to do it. Dwm has a spiritual successor called dwl. i3 has a drop-in replacement called sway. Openbox has 2 spiritual successors called labwc and waybox. Now you might notice one of the biggest WMs is missing on here: AwesomeWM, which is such a shame. The Awesome devs have said they would be okay with someone taking on that challenge (which has already been attempted, as evidenced by the existence of way-cooler), but it seems that they wouldn’t do it themselves.\n
\n
As for the projects mentioned in the article, (JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM) they are too small and obscure, and will likely fade away with Xorg.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol* I don’t know about that one, ao I’ll assume it is still the case. Edit: Ignoring the fact that the link is broken, it basically just links to a docs change where skipTaskbar is marked as unsupported on Linux. Link: [github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226](https://github.com/electron/electron/pull/33226)\n
- *Wayland breaks NoMachine NX* The link points to a page that has this marked as “SOLVED, Released in version 8” so I’m guessing it has been solved.\n
- *Wayland breaks Xclip*: As you said it yourself, Xclip is an X11 application, so it doesn’t work on Wayland. Of course it wouldn’t work on Wayland. With Wayland, we’re trying to prevent what happened with Xorg from happening again, or am I wrong?\n
\n
Edit: As pointed out by some people in the comments, there are also alternatives to xclip like wl-clipboard.\n
\n
- *Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS*: That link seems to point to the way this issue has been resolved so I don’t see your point.\n
- *Wayland breaks X11 atoms*: I lack knowledge on the topic so will assume this to be a valid argument\n
- *Wayland break games*: I’m 99% sure you can disable Vsync??? But I’m not a gamer. Also, WINE on Wayland is getting better and better. Soon enough, I hope the subpar performance will become better performance (when compared to Xorg)\n
- *Wayland breaks xdotool*: Well, yes. There is ydotool, but you’re looking for a 1-to-1 replacement and I’m not sure if ydotool fits the bill for that.\n
- *Wayland breaks xkill*: Well, yes. Again. It is an X application, so of course it does. Though for some reason I remember it working once on wayland. Must have been an xwayland app, or maybe I’m just misremembering this.\n
- *Wayland breaks screensavers*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks setting the window position*: That is a WIP for Plasma, not sure about any other projects, so assume true for anything else.\n
- *Wayland breaks color management*: Not anymore. That is being actively worked on.\n
- *Wayland breaks DRM leasing*: While not rhat familiar with the issue, my understanding of the topic is the article is correct: not all compositors support it.\n
- *Wayland breaks in-home streaming*: Not familiar with this, so will assume true.\n
- *Wayland breaks NetWM/EWMH*: Yeah, that seems to be the case.\n
- *Wayland breaks window icons*: Yeah, that seems to be the case, as said in the article, when no .desktop files are used.\n
\n
And that concludes my response to this article based on my fairly limited knowledge on the topic. If I got anything wrong, please, please let me know. As you can see my knowledge is quite limited, and as such, any corrections (preferably backed up with evidence) would be appreciated
"""
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date: 2024-02-17 22:16:50.0 +01:00
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1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1630
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> What are the not-a-bugs? Things like covering up a Wayland window will block it’s rendering thread indefinitely with no way to detect it happens to handle it. This can lock up some games, or cause you to time out in a networked application. Some Wayland core folks don’t want applications to know if their window is visible or not because it’s mild information about a user’s attention that should be private. Every game dev on the other hand is asking “WTF!?” as it causes their games to break randomly\n
\n
Please don’t make up what “Wayland core folks” think. You don’t know it, and your claims are waay off.\n
\n
It’s not about security. It was intended to allow the compositor to throttle apps to improve efficiency… Which of course in practice doesn’t work like this at all, because OpenGL swap buffers and Vulkan FIFO presentation modes were never intended to be used this way.\n
\n
As for why that hasn’t been fixed yet, it’s not as big of a problem anymore:\n
\n
- Mesa (at least for Vulkan) and Xwayland gurantee one frame per second as a minimum refresh rate\n
- toolkits and libraries use mailbox presentation internally and check frame callbacks themselves for when to render\n
- xdg shell now contains a flag for apps to know to inhibit rendering because they’re hidden. That doesn’t guarantee that presentation won’t otherwise block though\n
- a (set of) protocol(s) is being worked on to replace frame callbacks with a mechanism actually suited for OpenGL and Vulkan\n
\n
> Another mild example is that windows cannot be raised except by the user or by launching them. This is supposed to be a mild security precaution so a program can’t pop up a legitimate looking dialog over another application and trick the user. Realistically it means that applications can’t open and focus URL in your web or file browser. Instead they have to give you a notification telling you “Firefox is Ready” and make you do it manually.\n
\n
That’s not even close to how activation works on Wayland, and no, it’s not just a security thing, it’s a *usability* thing. Apps can only raise themselves if the currently focused app *gives* them focus, so that random apps can’t cover up what you’re working on just cause they need to show you an ad or an “important” pop up question or whatever. If it doesn’t work for a specific app, make a bug report about it to the app.
"""
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+favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1723 …}
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date: 2023-11-19 13:42:06.0 +01:00
}
+"title": 139702
}
0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021}
]
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+editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700502248 {#2255
date: 2023-11-20 18:44:08.0 +01:00
}
+createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700219396 {#2282
date: 2023-11-17 12:09:56.0 +01:00
}
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…2
}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028 …}
+root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1628 …}
+body: """
> The 1 second present timeout still only works for XWayland\n
\n
Oof, I thought the corresponding MR for Wayland was merged… But it was from Sebastian and after he got into a heated discussion again and started cursing, the MR got closed by someone else :|\n
\n
> realistically unless SDL2, GLFW or whatever engine a gamedev is using handles it for them they just don’t have the time to worry about what GTK, Qt, or XDG shell does\n
\n
SDL does handle it, but only for OpenGL; it can’t do anything about Vulkan. GLFW doesn’t do anything about it either, so that is pretty annoying.\n
\n
> I believe in the glorious Wayland future… I just wish it would get here a bit faster\n
\n
Don’t we all. Let’s hope the current upstream approach to fix this issue gets somewhere sooner than later…
"""
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"@theshatterstone54@feddit.uk"
"@slembcke@lemmy.ml"
"@Zamundaaa@discuss.tchncs.de"
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Show voter details
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| 61 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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Show voter details
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| 62 |
DENIED
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moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1702
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+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "AMD-Wayland-dual-monitor-Screen-flickering"
+title: "AMD+Wayland+dual monitor = Screen flickering"
+url: null
+body: """
So…I have an…*interesting* behavior I’ve never had before with an Nvidia or integrated intel chipsets…I have now my AMD card plugged both to a normal HDMI monitor, and then to another HDMI TV. Both work well. However, when I turn the TV off… The monitor will start flickering. About three flickers every minute or so. It’s not a signal loss also, I can see it’s drawing for a brief split second the windows that were drawing on the TV area, so it’s kinda rearranging the whole desktop area…then it resets. It does this 3 times, the whole ordeal last a couple seconds, in which everything is unusable because of the flicker, and focus going to all sorts of places. If I turn the TV back on, the behavior stops immediately.\n
\n
Any idea what’s causing this, and how can I sort it out? I’m using KDE Neon latest (it’s still Ubuntu 22.04), with an AMD 7800XT, with kisak’s ppa. Running an updated kernel 6.5.0-1007-oem. (I followed [these](https://askubuntu.com/questions/1451506/how-to-make-ubuntu-22-04-work-with-a-radeon-rx-7900-xtx) instructions to get it working at all)
"""
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date: 2023-11-14 17:47:16.0 +01:00
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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+image: null
+parent: null
+root: null
+body: """
That sounds like your TV is temporarily disconnecting at random, or at least doing something that the GPU detects as a disconnect.\n
\n
Most likely, AMD’s hotplug detection is too aggressive. You can report that at [gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues)
"""
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date: 2023-11-14 13:14:11.0 +01:00
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Show voter details
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| 63 |
DENIED
|
edit
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1702
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2008 …}
+magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1525 …}
+image: null
+domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2210 …}
+slug: "AMD-Wayland-dual-monitor-Screen-flickering"
+title: "AMD+Wayland+dual monitor = Screen flickering"
+url: null
+body: """
So…I have an…*interesting* behavior I’ve never had before with an Nvidia or integrated intel chipsets…I have now my AMD card plugged both to a normal HDMI monitor, and then to another HDMI TV. Both work well. However, when I turn the TV off… The monitor will start flickering. About three flickers every minute or so. It’s not a signal loss also, I can see it’s drawing for a brief split second the windows that were drawing on the TV area, so it’s kinda rearranging the whole desktop area…then it resets. It does this 3 times, the whole ordeal last a couple seconds, in which everything is unusable because of the flicker, and focus going to all sorts of places. If I turn the TV back on, the behavior stops immediately.\n
\n
Any idea what’s causing this, and how can I sort it out? I’m using KDE Neon latest (it’s still Ubuntu 22.04), with an AMD 7800XT, with kisak’s ppa. Running an updated kernel 6.5.0-1007-oem. (I followed [these](https://askubuntu.com/questions/1451506/how-to-make-ubuntu-22-04-work-with-a-radeon-rx-7900-xtx) instructions to get it working at all)
"""
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That sounds like your TV is temporarily disconnecting at random, or at least doing something that the GPU detects as a disconnect.\n
\n
Most likely, AMD’s hotplug detection is too aggressive. You can report that at [gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues)
"""
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|
Show voter details
|
| 64 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1702
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+url: null
+body: """
So…I have an…*interesting* behavior I’ve never had before with an Nvidia or integrated intel chipsets…I have now my AMD card plugged both to a normal HDMI monitor, and then to another HDMI TV. Both work well. However, when I turn the TV off… The monitor will start flickering. About three flickers every minute or so. It’s not a signal loss also, I can see it’s drawing for a brief split second the windows that were drawing on the TV area, so it’s kinda rearranging the whole desktop area…then it resets. It does this 3 times, the whole ordeal last a couple seconds, in which everything is unusable because of the flicker, and focus going to all sorts of places. If I turn the TV back on, the behavior stops immediately.\n
\n
Any idea what’s causing this, and how can I sort it out? I’m using KDE Neon latest (it’s still Ubuntu 22.04), with an AMD 7800XT, with kisak’s ppa. Running an updated kernel 6.5.0-1007-oem. (I followed [these](https://askubuntu.com/questions/1451506/how-to-make-ubuntu-22-04-work-with-a-radeon-rx-7900-xtx) instructions to get it working at all)
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That sounds like your TV is temporarily disconnecting at random, or at least doing something that the GPU detects as a disconnect.\n
\n
Most likely, AMD’s hotplug detection is too aggressive. You can report that at [gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues)
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Show voter details
|
| 65 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
|
null |
|
Show voter details
|
| 66 |
DENIED
|
moderate
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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So…I have an…*interesting* behavior I’ve never had before with an Nvidia or integrated intel chipsets…I have now my AMD card plugged both to a normal HDMI monitor, and then to another HDMI TV. Both work well. However, when I turn the TV off… The monitor will start flickering. About three flickers every minute or so. It’s not a signal loss also, I can see it’s drawing for a brief split second the windows that were drawing on the TV area, so it’s kinda rearranging the whole desktop area…then it resets. It does this 3 times, the whole ordeal last a couple seconds, in which everything is unusable because of the flicker, and focus going to all sorts of places. If I turn the TV back on, the behavior stops immediately.\n
\n
Any idea what’s causing this, and how can I sort it out? I’m using KDE Neon latest (it’s still Ubuntu 22.04), with an AMD 7800XT, with kisak’s ppa. Running an updated kernel 6.5.0-1007-oem. (I followed [these](https://askubuntu.com/questions/1451506/how-to-make-ubuntu-22-04-work-with-a-radeon-rx-7900-xtx) instructions to get it working at all)
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That sounds like your TV is temporarily disconnecting at random, or at least doing something that the GPU detects as a disconnect.\n
\n
Most likely, AMD’s hotplug detection is too aggressive. You can report that at [gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues)
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} |
|
Show voter details
|
| 67 |
DENIED
|
edit
|
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
+user: App\Entity\User {#259 …}
+entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1702
+user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2008 …}
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So…I have an…*interesting* behavior I’ve never had before with an Nvidia or integrated intel chipsets…I have now my AMD card plugged both to a normal HDMI monitor, and then to another HDMI TV. Both work well. However, when I turn the TV off… The monitor will start flickering. About three flickers every minute or so. It’s not a signal loss also, I can see it’s drawing for a brief split second the windows that were drawing on the TV area, so it’s kinda rearranging the whole desktop area…then it resets. It does this 3 times, the whole ordeal last a couple seconds, in which everything is unusable because of the flicker, and focus going to all sorts of places. If I turn the TV back on, the behavior stops immediately.\n
\n
Any idea what’s causing this, and how can I sort it out? I’m using KDE Neon latest (it’s still Ubuntu 22.04), with an AMD 7800XT, with kisak’s ppa. Running an updated kernel 6.5.0-1007-oem. (I followed [these](https://askubuntu.com/questions/1451506/how-to-make-ubuntu-22-04-work-with-a-radeon-rx-7900-xtx) instructions to get it working at all)
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That sounds like your TV is temporarily disconnecting at random, or at least doing something that the GPU detects as a disconnect.\n
\n
Most likely, AMD’s hotplug detection is too aggressive. You can report that at [gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues)
"""
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Show voter details
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| 68 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1619
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So…I have an…*interesting* behavior I’ve never had before with an Nvidia or integrated intel chipsets…I have now my AMD card plugged both to a normal HDMI monitor, and then to another HDMI TV. Both work well. However, when I turn the TV off… The monitor will start flickering. About three flickers every minute or so. It’s not a signal loss also, I can see it’s drawing for a brief split second the windows that were drawing on the TV area, so it’s kinda rearranging the whole desktop area…then it resets. It does this 3 times, the whole ordeal last a couple seconds, in which everything is unusable because of the flicker, and focus going to all sorts of places. If I turn the TV back on, the behavior stops immediately.\n
\n
Any idea what’s causing this, and how can I sort it out? I’m using KDE Neon latest (it’s still Ubuntu 22.04), with an AMD 7800XT, with kisak’s ppa. Running an updated kernel 6.5.0-1007-oem. (I followed [these](https://askubuntu.com/questions/1451506/how-to-make-ubuntu-22-04-work-with-a-radeon-rx-7900-xtx) instructions to get it working at all)
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That sounds like your TV is temporarily disconnecting at random, or at least doing something that the GPU detects as a disconnect.\n
\n
Most likely, AMD’s hotplug detection is too aggressive. You can report that at [gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues](https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues)
"""
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Show voter details
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| 69 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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| 70 |
DENIED
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moderate
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1559
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Show voter details
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| 71 |
DENIED
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edit
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1559
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Show voter details
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| 72 |
DENIED
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moderate
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1559
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Show voter details
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| 73 |
DENIED
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Show voter details
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| 74 |
DENIED
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moderate
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1564
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Show voter details
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| 75 |
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1564
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1578
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| 80 |
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| 81 |
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Show voter details
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| 83 |
DENIED
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edit
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1595
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It certainly does help a little bit. But it’s of course still not a coincidence that companies are pushing for it instead of more effective measures… It’s not just cheap but it also pushes people to believe that measures to save the environment are all useless and annoying, and makes them less likely to want more to happen.
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It certainly does help a little bit. But it’s of course still not a coincidence that companies are pushing for it instead of more effective measures… It’s not just cheap but it also pushes people to believe that measures to save the environment are all useless and annoying, and makes them less likely to want more to happen.
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| 85 |
DENIED
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ROLE_USER
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null |
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Show voter details
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| 86 |
DENIED
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Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1908
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> Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!\n
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\n
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\n
**Update**: [Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer](https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity)
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Show voter details
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| 87 |
DENIED
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> Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!\n
\n
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\n
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**Update**: [Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer](https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity)
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Show voter details
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| 88 |
DENIED
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> Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!\n
\n
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\n
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**Update**: [Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer](https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity)
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> Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!\n
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\n
**Update**: [Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer](https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity)
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> Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!\n
\n
> Unfortunately, the effect is spoilt by an incredibly toxic and hateful community. I cannot recommend Hyprland to anyone who is not prepared to steer well clear of its community spaces. Imagine a high school boys’ locker room come to life on Discord and GitHub and you’ll get an idea of what it’s like.\n
\n
> I empathise with Vaxry. I remember being young, smart, productive… and mean. I did some cool stuff, but I deeply regret the way I treated people. It wasn’t really my fault – I was a product of my environment – but it was my responsibility. Today, I’m proud to have built many welcoming communities, where people are rewarded for their involvement, rather than coming away from their experience hurt. What motivates us to build and give away free software if not bringing joy to ourselves and others? Can we be proud of a community which brings more suffering into the world?\n
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**Update**: [Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer](https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity)
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> Hyprland is an open source Wayland compositor based on wlroots, a project I started back in 2017 to make it easier to build good Wayland compositors. It’s a project which is loved by its users for its emphasis on customization and “eye candy” – beautiful graphics and animations, each configuration tailored to the unique look and feel imagined by the user who creates it. It’s a very exciting project!\n
\n
> Unfortunately, the effect is spoilt by an incredibly toxic and hateful community. I cannot recommend Hyprland to anyone who is not prepared to steer well clear of its community spaces. Imagine a high school boys’ locker room come to life on Discord and GitHub and you’ll get an idea of what it’s like.\n
\n
> I empathise with Vaxry. I remember being young, smart, productive… and mean. I did some cool stuff, but I deeply regret the way I treated people. It wasn’t really my fault – I was a product of my environment – but it was my responsibility. Today, I’m proud to have built many welcoming communities, where people are rewarded for their involvement, rather than coming away from their experience hurt. What motivates us to build and give away free software if not bringing joy to ourselves and others? Can we be proud of a community which brings more suffering into the world?\n
\n
**Update**: [Response from Vaxry, Hyprland Developer](https://blog.vaxry.net/articles/2023-hyprlandsCommunity)
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