GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/index.php/u/@zifnab25@hexbear.net/commented

Response
200 OK
IP
216.73.216.122
Profiled on
Token
790e76

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 4.76 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.08 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2859 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2641 …}
  +slug: "Double-standards-or-something-I-don-t-know"
  +title: "Double standards or something, I don't know..."
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/21c1b2ee-071e-4f3f-8865-3121edfaad9d.png"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 218
  +favouriteCount: 640
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703176352 {#2894
    date: 2023-12-21 17:32:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2899 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2902 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2904 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2906 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2908 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2910 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: "![I-was-saying](https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png "emoji I-was-saying")"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 16
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1696707645 {#1428
        date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@w00t@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1588 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1586 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1679 …}
      -id: 36305
      -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':7 'emoji':8 'i-was-say':1,9 'say':4,12 'www.hexbear.net':6 'www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':5"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://hexbear.net/comment/4065879"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696707645 {#1440
        date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 36305
    }
  ]
  -id: 3440
  -titleTs: "'doubl':1 'know':8 'someth':4 'standard':2"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1696791041
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6157227"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696704641 {#2881
    date: 2023-10-07 20:50:41.0 +02:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2859 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2641 …}
  +slug: "Double-standards-or-something-I-don-t-know"
  +title: "Double standards or something, I don't know..."
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/21c1b2ee-071e-4f3f-8865-3121edfaad9d.png"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 218
  +favouriteCount: 640
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703176352 {#2894
    date: 2023-12-21 17:32:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2899 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2902 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2904 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2906 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2908 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2910 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: "![I-was-saying](https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png "emoji I-was-saying")"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 16
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1696707645 {#1428
        date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@w00t@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1588 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1586 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1679 …}
      -id: 36305
      -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':7 'emoji':8 'i-was-say':1,9 'say':4,12 'www.hexbear.net':6 'www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':5"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://hexbear.net/comment/4065879"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696707645 {#1440
        date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 36305
    }
  ]
  -id: 3440
  -titleTs: "'doubl':1 'know':8 'someth':4 'standard':2"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1696791041
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6157227"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696704641 {#2881
    date: 2023-10-07 20:50:41.0 +02:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2859 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2641 …}
  +slug: "Double-standards-or-something-I-don-t-know"
  +title: "Double standards or something, I don't know..."
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/21c1b2ee-071e-4f3f-8865-3121edfaad9d.png"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 218
  +favouriteCount: 640
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703176352 {#2894
    date: 2023-12-21 17:32:32.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2899 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2902 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2904 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2906 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2908 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2910 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: "![I-was-saying](https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png "emoji I-was-saying")"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 16
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1696707645 {#1428
        date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@w00t@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1588 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1586 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1679 …}
      -id: 36305
      -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':7 'emoji':8 'i-was-say':1,9 'say':4,12 'www.hexbear.net':6 'www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':5"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://hexbear.net/comment/4065879"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696707645 {#1440
        date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 36305
    }
  ]
  -id: 3440
  -titleTs: "'doubl':1 'know':8 'someth':4 'standard':2"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1696791041
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6157227"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696704641 {#2881
    date: 2023-10-07 20:50:41.0 +02:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
5 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
6 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2859 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2641 …}
    +slug: "Double-standards-or-something-I-don-t-know"
    +title: "Double standards or something, I don't know..."
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/21c1b2ee-071e-4f3f-8865-3121edfaad9d.png"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 218
    +favouriteCount: 640
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1703176352 {#2894
      date: 2023-12-21 17:32:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2899 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2902 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2904 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2906 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2908 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2910 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696}
    ]
    -id: 3440
    -titleTs: "'doubl':1 'know':8 'someth':4 'standard':2"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1696791041
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6157227"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696704641 {#2881
      date: 2023-10-07 20:50:41.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: "![I-was-saying](https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png "emoji I-was-saying")"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 16
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1696707645 {#1428
    date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@w00t@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1588 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1586 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1679 …}
  -id: 36305
  -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':7 'emoji':8 'i-was-say':1,9 'say':4,12 'www.hexbear.net':6 'www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':5"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://hexbear.net/comment/4065879"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696707645 {#1440
    date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
  }
  +"title": 36305
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
7 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2859 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2641 …}
    +slug: "Double-standards-or-something-I-don-t-know"
    +title: "Double standards or something, I don't know..."
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/21c1b2ee-071e-4f3f-8865-3121edfaad9d.png"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 218
    +favouriteCount: 640
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1703176352 {#2894
      date: 2023-12-21 17:32:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2899 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2902 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2904 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2906 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2908 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2910 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696}
    ]
    -id: 3440
    -titleTs: "'doubl':1 'know':8 'someth':4 'standard':2"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1696791041
    +visibility: "visible             "
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696704641 {#2881
      date: 2023-10-07 20:50:41.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: "![I-was-saying](https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png "emoji I-was-saying")"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@w00t@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1588 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1586 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1679 …}
  -id: 36305
  -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':7 'emoji':8 'i-was-say':1,9 'say':4,12 'www.hexbear.net':6 'www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':5"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696707645 {#1440
    date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
  }
  +"title": 36305
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
8 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1571
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2859 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2641 …}
    +slug: "Double-standards-or-something-I-don-t-know"
    +title: "Double standards or something, I don't know..."
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/21c1b2ee-071e-4f3f-8865-3121edfaad9d.png"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 218
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    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1703176352 {#2894
      date: 2023-12-21 17:32:32.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +tags: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2899 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2902 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2904 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2906 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2908 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2910 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#1696}
    ]
    -id: 3440
    -titleTs: "'doubl':1 'know':8 'someth':4 'standard':2"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
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    +ranking: 1696791041
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6157227"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696704641 {#2881
      date: 2023-10-07 20:50:41.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: "![I-was-saying](https://www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png "emoji I-was-saying")"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 16
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1696707645 {#1428
    date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
  }
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    "@w00t@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1588 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1580 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1583 …}
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1679 …}
  -id: 36305
  -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':7 'emoji':8 'i-was-say':1,9 'say':4,12 'www.hexbear.net':6 'www.hexbear.net/pictrs/image/b5f78be7-d44d-46fe-b7a4-cacd375ef0ed.png':5"
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696707645 {#1440
    date: 2023-10-07 21:40:45.0 +02:00
  }
  +"title": 36305
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
9 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
10 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2861 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "i-3-statistics"
  +title: "i <3 statistics"
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3ab0a926-bf28-4a9d-a0c1-f5cf46359290.jpeg"
  +body: """
    Disclaimer: This is a joke. Ecofascism is obviously bad, kids. Don’t be that guy.\n
    \n
    [theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-t…](https://theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-to-control-the-population-is-often-futile-and-harmful-194369)
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 105
  +favouriteCount: 778
  +score: 0
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  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703258900 {#2856
    date: 2023-12-22 16:28:20.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +tags: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2863 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2865 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2869 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2871 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2873 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2041
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
      +body: "This is the eugenicist’s dilemma. You very rarely meet one who would advocate euthanizing themselves."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703111158 {#2125
        date: 2023-12-20 23:25:58.0 +01:00
      }
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      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
        "@Infamousblt@hexbear.net"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
      -id: 238876
      -bodyTs: "'advoc':14 'dilemma':6 'eugenicist':4 'euthan':15 'meet':10 'one':11 'rare':9 'would':13"
      +ranking: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703111158 {#2165
        date: 2023-12-20 23:25:58.0 +01:00
      }
      +"title": 238876
    }
  ]
  -id: 23666
  -titleTs: "'3':2 'statist':3"
  -bodyTs: "'/8-billion-people-why-trying-t':18 '/8-billion-people-why-trying-to-control-the-population-is-often-futile-and-harmful-194369)':21 'bad':9 'disclaim':1 'ecofasc':6 'guy':15 'joke':5 'kid':10 'obvious':8 'theconversation.com':17,20 'theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-t':16 'theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-to-control-the-population-is-often-futile-and-harmful-194369)':19"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1703190238
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://mander.xyz/post/7540341"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1705954133 {#2844
    date: 2024-01-22 21:08:53.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703103838 {#2823
    date: 2023-12-20 21:23:58.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
11 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2861 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "i-3-statistics"
  +title: "i <3 statistics"
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3ab0a926-bf28-4a9d-a0c1-f5cf46359290.jpeg"
  +body: """
    Disclaimer: This is a joke. Ecofascism is obviously bad, kids. Don’t be that guy.\n
    \n
    [theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-t…](https://theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-to-control-the-population-is-often-futile-and-harmful-194369)
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 105
  +favouriteCount: 778
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1703258900 {#2856
    date: 2023-12-22 16:28:20.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2863 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2865 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2869 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2871 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2873 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2041
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
      +body: "This is the eugenicist’s dilemma. You very rarely meet one who would advocate euthanizing themselves."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703111158 {#2125
        date: 2023-12-20 23:25:58.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
        "@Infamousblt@hexbear.net"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2106 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2107 …}
      -id: 238876
      -bodyTs: "'advoc':14 'dilemma':6 'eugenicist':4 'euthan':15 'meet':10 'one':11 'rare':9 'would':13"
      +ranking: 0
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      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703111158 {#2165
        date: 2023-12-20 23:25:58.0 +01:00
      }
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  ]
  -id: 23666
  -titleTs: "'3':2 'statist':3"
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  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1703190238
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://mander.xyz/post/7540341"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1705954133 {#2844
    date: 2024-01-22 21:08:53.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703103838 {#2823
    date: 2023-12-20 21:23:58.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
12 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2861 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "i-3-statistics"
  +title: "i <3 statistics"
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3ab0a926-bf28-4a9d-a0c1-f5cf46359290.jpeg"
  +body: """
    Disclaimer: This is a joke. Ecofascism is obviously bad, kids. Don’t be that guy.\n
    \n
    [theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-t…](https://theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-to-control-the-population-is-often-futile-and-harmful-194369)
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 105
  +favouriteCount: 778
  +score: 0
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  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1703258900 {#2856
    date: 2023-12-22 16:28:20.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2863 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2865 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2867 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2869 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2871 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2873 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2041
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
      +body: "This is the eugenicist’s dilemma. You very rarely meet one who would advocate euthanizing themselves."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 6
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1703111158 {#2125
        date: 2023-12-20 23:25:58.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
        "@Infamousblt@hexbear.net"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2099 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2108 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2101 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2109 …}
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    date: 2024-01-22 21:08:53.0 +01:00
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703103838 {#2823
    date: 2023-12-20 21:23:58.0 +01:00
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  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
13 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
14 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2041
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2861 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
    +slug: "i-3-statistics"
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    +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3ab0a926-bf28-4a9d-a0c1-f5cf46359290.jpeg"
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      Disclaimer: This is a joke. Ecofascism is obviously bad, kids. Don’t be that guy.\n
      \n
      [theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-t…](https://theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-to-control-the-population-is-often-futile-and-harmful-194369)
      """
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2023-12-20 21:23:58.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
15 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2041
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2861 …}
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    +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3ab0a926-bf28-4a9d-a0c1-f5cf46359290.jpeg"
    +body: """
      Disclaimer: This is a joke. Ecofascism is obviously bad, kids. Don’t be that guy.\n
      \n
      [theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-t…](https://theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-to-control-the-population-is-often-futile-and-harmful-194369)
      """
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2023-12-20 21:23:58.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703111158 {#2165
    date: 2023-12-20 23:25:58.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 238876
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
16 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2041
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2104
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2861 …}
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    +title: "i <3 statistics"
    +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3ab0a926-bf28-4a9d-a0c1-f5cf46359290.jpeg"
    +body: """
      Disclaimer: This is a joke. Ecofascism is obviously bad, kids. Don’t be that guy.\n
      \n
      [theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-t…](https://theconversation.com/8-billion-people-why-trying-to-control-the-population-is-often-futile-and-harmful-194369)
      """
    +type: "image"
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      date: 2023-12-20 21:23:58.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2100 …}
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  +body: "This is the eugenicist’s dilemma. You very rarely meet one who would advocate euthanizing themselves."
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703111158 {#2165
    date: 2023-12-20 23:25:58.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 238876
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
17 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
18 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2458
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2458
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2726 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2766 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2768 …}
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2777 …}
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  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1701986922 {#2747
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  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
20 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2458
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2766 …}
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  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
21 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
22 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
23 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2458
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2726 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2766 …}
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
24 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2461
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
25 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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Show voter details
26 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2371
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  +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
  +title: "The Nordic Model"
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          Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
          \n
          By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-12 15:23:17.0 +01:00
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      +body: """
        > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
        \n
        Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
        \n
        US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
        \n
        The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
        \n
        > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
        \n
        The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
        \n
        > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
        \n
        Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
        \n
        But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
        """
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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      +body: """
        > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
        \n
        I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
        \n
        > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
        \n
        These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
        \n
        > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
        \n
        People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
        \n
        Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
        \n
        The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
        \n
        > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
        \n
        If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
        \n
        Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
        \n
        The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-12 18:50:23.0 +01:00
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2371 …2}
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      +body: """
        > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
        \n
        A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
        \n
        The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
        \n
        To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
        \n
        > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
        \n
        Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
        \n
        The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
        """
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        > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
        \n
        This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
        \n
        > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
        \n
        Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
        \n
        A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
        \n
        Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
        \n
        That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
        \n
        > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
        \n
        > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
        \n
        The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
        \n
        What’s more…\n
        \n
        > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
        \n
        This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
        \n
        > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
        \n
        > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
        \n
        So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
        \n
        > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
        \n
        > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
        \n
        These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
        \n
        The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
        """
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        > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
        \n
        That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
        \n
        > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
        \n
        Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
        \n
        > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
        \n
        Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
        """
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        > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
        \n
        But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
        \n
        > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
        \n
        This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
        \n
        > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
        \n
        Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
        \n
        Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
        \n
        > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
        \n
        Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
        \n
        > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
        \n
        At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
        \n
        > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
        \n
        Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
        """
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702482813 {#2082
        date: 2023-12-13 16:53:33.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 220602
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2346
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2371 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2351 …}
      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#1720}
      +body: """
        > The reality is that it’s both.\n
        \n
        That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
        \n
        > That’s just a false narrative.\n
        \n
        The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
        \n
        The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
        \n
        This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
        \n
        > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
        \n
        The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
        \n
        > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
        \n
        Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
        \n
        > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
        \n
        What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-13 22:14:18.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 220831
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2093
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2371 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
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      +body: """
        > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
        \n
        Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
        \n
        > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
        \n
        Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
        \n
        But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
        \n
        > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
        \n
        The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
        \n
        > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
        \n
        That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
        \n
        Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
        \n
        > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
        \n
        Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
        \n
        So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
        """
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
27 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2371
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2295 …}
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  +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
  +title: "The Nordic Model"
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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          Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
          \n
          By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
          """
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      +body: """
        > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
        \n
        Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
        \n
        US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
        \n
        The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
        \n
        > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
        \n
        The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
        \n
        > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
        \n
        Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
        \n
        But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
        """
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        > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
        \n
        I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
        \n
        > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
        \n
        These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
        \n
        > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
        \n
        People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
        \n
        Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
        \n
        The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
        \n
        > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
        \n
        If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
        \n
        Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
        \n
        The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
        """
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        > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
        \n
        A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
        \n
        The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
        \n
        To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
        \n
        > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
        \n
        Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
        \n
        The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
        """
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        > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
        \n
        This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
        \n
        > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
        \n
        Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
        \n
        A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
        \n
        Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
        \n
        That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
        \n
        > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
        \n
        > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
        \n
        The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
        \n
        What’s more…\n
        \n
        > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
        \n
        This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
        \n
        > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
        \n
        > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
        \n
        So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
        \n
        > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
        \n
        > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
        \n
        These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
        \n
        The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
        """
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        > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
        \n
        That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
        \n
        > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
        \n
        Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
        \n
        > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
        \n
        Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
        """
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2085
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        > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
        \n
        But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
        \n
        > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
        \n
        This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
        \n
        > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
        \n
        Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
        \n
        Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
        \n
        > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
        \n
        Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
        \n
        > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
        \n
        At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
        \n
        > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
        \n
        Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
        """
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        > The reality is that it’s both.\n
        \n
        That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
        \n
        > That’s just a false narrative.\n
        \n
        The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
        \n
        The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
        \n
        This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
        \n
        > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
        \n
        The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
        \n
        > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
        \n
        Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
        \n
        > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
        \n
        What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-13 22:14:18.0 +01:00
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        > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
        \n
        Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
        \n
        > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
        \n
        Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
        \n
        But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
        \n
        > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
        \n
        The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
        \n
        > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
        \n
        That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
        \n
        Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
        \n
        > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
        \n
        Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
        \n
        So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
        """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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28 DENIED moderate 
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  +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
  +title: "The Nordic Model"
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          Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
          \n
          By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
          """
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        > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
        \n
        Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
        \n
        US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
        \n
        The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
        \n
        > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
        \n
        The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
        \n
        > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
        \n
        Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
        \n
        But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
        """
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
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        > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
        \n
        I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
        \n
        > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
        \n
        These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
        \n
        > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
        \n
        People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
        \n
        Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
        \n
        The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
        \n
        > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
        \n
        If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
        \n
        Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
        \n
        The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
        """
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        > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
        \n
        A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
        \n
        The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
        \n
        To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
        \n
        > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
        \n
        Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
        \n
        The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
        """
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        > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
        \n
        This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
        \n
        > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
        \n
        Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
        \n
        A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
        \n
        Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
        \n
        That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
        \n
        > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
        \n
        > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
        \n
        The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
        \n
        What’s more…\n
        \n
        > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
        \n
        This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
        \n
        > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
        \n
        > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
        \n
        So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
        \n
        > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
        \n
        > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
        \n
        These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
        \n
        The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
        """
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'war':386,543,911 'way':829 'weaken':753 'wealthier':236 'welfar':480,634,654,748,978,1020 'well':240 'well-arm':239 'west':149,208 'western':242 'wholli':58 'whose':799 'wide':448,506 'wide-reach':447 'within':153,815,939,1036 'world':385,537,612,1003 'would':157,570 'year':686 'yearn':1053 'youth':532"
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        date: 2024-01-09 03:18:41.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-14 19:26:04.0 +01:00
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        > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
        \n
        That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
        \n
        > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
        \n
        Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
        \n
        > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
        \n
        Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
        """
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2085
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        > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
        \n
        But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
        \n
        > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
        \n
        This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
        \n
        > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
        \n
        Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
        \n
        Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
        \n
        > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
        \n
        Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
        \n
        > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
        \n
        At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
        \n
        > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
        \n
        Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
        """
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2346
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        > The reality is that it’s both.\n
        \n
        That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
        \n
        > That’s just a false narrative.\n
        \n
        The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
        \n
        > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
        \n
        The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
        \n
        This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
        \n
        > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
        \n
        The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
        \n
        > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
        \n
        Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
        \n
        > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
        \n
        What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
        """
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2093
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        > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
        \n
        Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
        \n
        > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
        \n
        Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
        \n
        But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
        \n
        > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
        \n
        The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
        \n
        > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
        \n
        That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
        \n
        Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
        \n
        > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
        \n
        Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
        \n
        So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
        """
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-13 16:53:33.0 +01:00
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
    \n
    Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
    \n
    US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
    \n
    The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
    \n
    > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
    \n
    The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
    \n
    > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
    \n
    Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
    \n
    But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
    """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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31 DENIED edit 
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
    \n
    Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
    \n
    US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
    \n
    The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
    \n
    > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
    \n
    The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
    \n
    > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
    \n
    Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
    \n
    But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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Show voter details
32 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
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          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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'war':386,543,911 'way':829 'weaken':753 'wealthier':236 'welfar':480,634,654,748,978,1020 'well':240 'well-arm':239 'west':149,208 'western':242 'wholli':58 'whose':799 'wide':448,506 'wide-reach':447 'within':153,815,939,1036 'world':385,537,612,1003 'would':157,570 'year':686 'yearn':1053 'youth':532"
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          date: 2024-01-09 03:18:41.0 +01:00
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
    \n
    Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
    \n
    US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
    \n
    The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
    \n
    > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
    \n
    The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
    \n
    > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
    \n
    Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
    \n
    But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
            """
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019}
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        +body: """
          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
    \n
    I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
    \n
    > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
    \n
    These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
    \n
    > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
    \n
    People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
    \n
    Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
    \n
    The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
    \n
    > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
    \n
    If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
    \n
    Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
    \n
    The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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Show voter details
35 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
            """
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-12 18:01:28.0 +01:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019}
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2159
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
    \n
    I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
    \n
    > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
    \n
    These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
    \n
    > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
    \n
    People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
    \n
    Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
    \n
    The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
    \n
    > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
    \n
    If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
    \n
    Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
    \n
    The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
    """
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36 DENIED moderate 
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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'war':386,543,911 'way':829 'weaken':753 'wealthier':236 'welfar':480,634,654,748,978,1020 'well':240 'well-arm':239 'west':149,208 'western':242 'wholli':58 'whose':799 'wide':448,506 'wide-reach':447 'within':153,815,939,1036 'world':385,537,612,1003 'would':157,570 'year':686 'yearn':1053 'youth':532"
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          date: 2024-01-09 03:18:41.0 +01:00
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
    \n
    I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
    \n
    > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
    \n
    These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
    \n
    > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
    \n
    People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
    \n
    Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
    \n
    The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
    \n
    > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
    \n
    If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
    \n
    Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
    \n
    The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
    """
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
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          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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'war':386,543,911 'way':829 'weaken':753 'wealthier':236 'welfar':480,634,654,748,978,1020 'well':240 'well-arm':239 'west':149,208 'western':242 'wholli':58 'whose':799 'wide':448,506 'wide-reach':447 'within':153,815,939,1036 'world':385,537,612,1003 'would':157,570 'year':686 'yearn':1053 'youth':532"
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          date: 2024-01-09 03:18:41.0 +01:00
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
    \n
    A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
    \n
    The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
    \n
    To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
    \n
    > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
    \n
    Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
    \n
    The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
39 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
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    > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
    \n
    A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
    \n
    The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
    \n
    To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
    \n
    > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
    \n
    Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
    \n
    The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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Show voter details
40 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
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    > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
    \n
    A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
    \n
    The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
    \n
    To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
    \n
    > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
    \n
    Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
    \n
    The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
    """
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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            date: 2023-12-12 15:23:17.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-31 19:19:30.0 +01:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2159}
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
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    > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
    \n
    This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
    \n
    > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
    \n
    Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
    \n
    A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
    \n
    Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
    \n
    That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
    \n
    > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
    \n
    > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
    \n
    The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
    \n
    What’s more…\n
    \n
    > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
    \n
    This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
    \n
    > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
    \n
    > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
    \n
    So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
    \n
    > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
    \n
    > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
    \n
    These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
    \n
    The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
    """
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43 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2159
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
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    > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
    \n
    This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
    \n
    > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
    \n
    Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
    \n
    A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
    \n
    Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
    \n
    That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
    \n
    > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
    \n
    > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
    \n
    The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
    \n
    What’s more…\n
    \n
    > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
    \n
    This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
    \n
    > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
    \n
    > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
    \n
    So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
    \n
    > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
    \n
    > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
    \n
    These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
    \n
    The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
    """
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44 DENIED moderate 
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
    \n
    This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
    \n
    > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
    \n
    Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
    \n
    A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
    \n
    Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
    \n
    That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
    \n
    > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
    \n
    > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
    \n
    The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
    \n
    What’s more…\n
    \n
    > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
    \n
    This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
    \n
    > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
    \n
    > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
    \n
    So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
    \n
    > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
    \n
    > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
    \n
    These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
    \n
    The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
    """
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
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            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
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          date: 2023-12-13 22:14:18.0 +01:00
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
    \n
    That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
    \n
    > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
    \n
    Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
    \n
    > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
    \n
    Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
    """
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47 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2048
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          date: 2024-01-09 03:18:41.0 +01:00
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
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    > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
    \n
    That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
    \n
    > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
    \n
    Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
    \n
    > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
    \n
    Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
    """
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48 DENIED moderate 
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
    \n
    That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
    \n
    > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
    \n
    Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
    \n
    > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
    \n
    Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1720
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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     …2
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    Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
    \n
    By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
51 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1720
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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'war':386,543,911 'way':829 'weaken':753 'wealthier':236 'welfar':480,634,654,748,978,1020 'well':240 'well-arm':239 'west':149,208 'western':242 'wholli':58 'whose':799 'wide':448,506 'wide-reach':447 'within':153,815,939,1036 'world':385,537,612,1003 'would':157,570 'year':686 'yearn':1053 'youth':532"
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          date: 2024-01-09 03:18:41.0 +01:00
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
    \n
    By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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Show voter details
52 DENIED moderate 
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
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          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
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    Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
    \n
    By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
    """
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
            """
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        +body: """
          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
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          date: 2023-12-13 22:14:18.0 +01:00
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
    \n
    But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
    \n
    > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
    \n
    This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
    \n
    > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
    \n
    Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
    \n
    Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
    \n
    > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
    \n
    Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
    \n
    > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
    \n
    At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
    \n
    > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
    \n
    Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
    """
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55 DENIED edit 
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
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            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
    \n
    But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
    \n
    > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
    \n
    This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
    \n
    > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
    \n
    Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
    \n
    Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
    \n
    > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
    \n
    Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
    \n
    > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
    \n
    At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
    \n
    > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
    \n
    Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
    """
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56 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2085
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
    \n
    But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
    \n
    > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
    \n
    This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
    \n
    > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
    \n
    Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
    \n
    Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
    \n
    > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
    \n
    Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
    \n
    > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
    \n
    At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
    \n
    > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
    \n
    Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2346
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
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          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > The reality is that it’s both.\n
    \n
    That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
    \n
    > That’s just a false narrative.\n
    \n
    The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
    \n
    The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
    \n
    This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
    \n
    > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
    \n
    The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
    \n
    > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
    \n
    Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
    \n
    > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
    \n
    What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
59 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2346
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
            """
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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        +body: """
          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-13 16:53:33.0 +01:00
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        +"title": 220602
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2346}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2093
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2371 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > The reality is that it’s both.\n
    \n
    That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
    \n
    > That’s just a false narrative.\n
    \n
    The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
    \n
    The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
    \n
    This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
    \n
    > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
    \n
    The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
    \n
    > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
    \n
    Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
    \n
    > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
    \n
    What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
60 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2346
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
            """
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          date: 2024-01-09 03:18:41.0 +01:00
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
          \n
          Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
          \n
          > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
          \n
          Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
          \n
          But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
          \n
          > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
          \n
          The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
          \n
          > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
          \n
          That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
          \n
          Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
          \n
          > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
          \n
          Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
          \n
          So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
          """
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    > The reality is that it’s both.\n
    \n
    That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
    \n
    > That’s just a false narrative.\n
    \n
    The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
    \n
    > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
    \n
    The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
    \n
    This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
    \n
    > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
    \n
    The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
    \n
    > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
    \n
    Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
    \n
    > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
    \n
    What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2093
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
          """
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    > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
    \n
    Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
    \n
    > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
    \n
    Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
    \n
    But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
    \n
    > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
    \n
    The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
    \n
    > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
    \n
    That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
    \n
    Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
    \n
    > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
    \n
    Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
    \n
    So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
63 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2093
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    +slug: "The-Nordic-Model"
    +title: "The Nordic Model"
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2394
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          +body: """
            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
            \n
            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-12 15:23:17.0 +01:00
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        +body: """
          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          date: 2023-12-12 18:01:28.0 +01:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2019
        +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1910
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
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    > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
    \n
    Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
    \n
    > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
    \n
    Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
    \n
    But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
    \n
    > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
    \n
    The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
    \n
    > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
    \n
    That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
    \n
    Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
    \n
    > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
    \n
    Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
    \n
    So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
    """
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64 DENIED moderate 
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            Is this accurate or overstated? I was under the impression the Nordic Model is more predicated on fossil fuel exports than straight-up slave labor (as compared to, say, economic success of The Philippines or India or Israel or Saudi Arabia, where dirt cheap labor from neighboring states is essential to operations). Nords would be *poorer* without fossil fuel exports, but they’d still function within the EU trade network and enjoy a basic post-industrial standard of life with high quality education, health care, and mass transit.\n
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            By comparison, the Pacific Rim satraps are all ruled by folks who make their money entirely off of an export market powered by dirt cheap human labor. The shipping and vacation industries through the Pacific Islands are *entirely* a function of indentured labor. The agricultural industry is *entirely* plantation labor. Its a very different beast.
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          > A great deal of western economy runs on exploitation of Latin America and Africa where western companies commit crimes against humanity on the daily basis.\n
          \n
          Undeniably. But the benefit of this exploitation accrues first and foremost to the ownership class.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies are directly involved in exploitation happening in developing countries\n
          \n
          US cut-outs in Scandinavia function in much the same way as the 50-state strategy for the domestic arms industry. This secures political patronage by way of kickbacks and sinesures to elites within the Scandinavian domestic polity. But it does not benefit *Scandinavians* writ large. The beneficiaries are entirely within the foreign rooted patronage network and have contracted over time as the network grows more efficient.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavia is not a closed economy\n
          \n
          The economic benefits of Scandinavian socialism are geographically and linguistically limited. Traveling overseas for medical care and education is a luxury, particularly when your conditions are chronic or time-critical. And the labor for these services is primarily sourced from the Scandinavian polity. They’re not importing a bunch of Global South doctors and teachers to get the cost of their socialized programs down.\n
          \n
          > the labor needed to make Scandinavia run happens in the countries the empire subjugates\n
          \n
          The labor needed to make the Scandinavian Treats Network flow is a consequence of colonialism. But Treats trade through the privatized economy. There is no publicly financed cheap TVs, cars, and textiles service. And the benefits of these industries accrue primarily to the bourgeois not the proletariat. That is why they’re the focus of intensive advertising and other consumerist propaganda. Nobody in Scandinavia needs to spend millions during the local soccer tournament to promote the public mail service or the local judiciary in order to garner support for it. Its the newest FIFA title and scammy financial products and the fanciest luxury watch brands and clothing styles that get the lion’s share of promotion. None of those are consequences of Democratic Socialism.\n
          \n
          > Cuba is indeed a far more principled example of socialist policies in action.\n
          \n
          Cuba isn’t “principled”, its “embargoed”. Cubans would be more than happy to get the Scandinavian tier of treats if they were on offer.\n
          \n
          But my point is that Cuba can *still deliver public services* despite being cut off from treats networks. These are distinct systems of trade.
          """
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          > the conditions of the working class are also improved by imperialism\n
          \n
          I think that’s highly debatable. If nothing else, imperialism undermines domestic labor power, as domestic workers are devalued at the industrial level and shuttled off into police/military industries where they are more easily controlled from the top. But my main focus is on the industries where democratic socialism have the biggest impact. Health care, education, mass transit, and other service-sector work isn’t easily exported and won’t directly benefit from generically “cheaper” cost of living for a functionally poorer working class cohort.\n
          \n
          > many of the stable goods consumed by the people in Scandinavia are either partially or entirely sourced in colonized countries\n
          \n
          These consumer goods exist within the private market. Imports undermine domestic labor and retail work is almost entirely privatized. There is no notable distinction between a Swedish democratic socialist shopping at ICA and a British constitutional monarchist shopping at Tesco. They both receive the same capitalist-driven benefits. Neither system is *predicated* on imperially supplied imports.\n
          \n
          > people in western countries enjoy a higher standard of living because of it\n
          \n
          People in China enjoy a comparable (sometimes superior) standard of living despite it. People outside of western countries - particularly those in the Global South - can experience democratic socialism without any of the horrors of imperialism tacked on.\n
          \n
          Democratic socialism and imperial economic expansionism are two independent political phenomena. One does not contribute to the other, save in contradiction. I might argue that Scandinavian democratic socialism is actively being undermined by imperialist political arrangements, as in the case of Finland joining NATO and ceding a large chunk of its surplus to militarization. Alternatively, one might look at how Worst Korea, the UK, and India have suffered sever living quality declines as neoliberal economic policy cannibalizes their public sector services.\n
          \n
          The benefits of imperialism - particularly in the wake of the 21st century - do not appear to accrue to lay residents of these nations. They are entirely bound up in aristocratic cadres who can reinvest the surplus into imperial expansion. This pattern isn’t unique to the modern moment, either. It is the same story told during the Dutch post-30-years-War Era, the post-Civil War period, and the WW1-WW2 period.\n
          \n
          > Cuba would not exploit other countries if it wasn’t embargoed because exploitation isn’t inherent in Cuban economic system as it is under capitalism.\n
          \n
          If you showed up in Havana with a cargo ship full of H&amp;M clothing and electronics produced in a Samsung sweatshop and cosmetics tested on adorable animals and gold jewelry mined out of a West African slave pit, plenty of Cubans would receive them happily. This is commodity fetishism in action. Nobody understands the blood and toil that made these surplus goods appear and relatively few people are able to reconcile the information with how they live their lives.\n
          \n
          Cubans who leave the island have absolutely no compunction at consuming right alongside their American peers. Americans who visit are never turned away because their money comes from a nation full of rapacious barbarians. There is nothing inherent to the Cuban economy that prevents it from absorbing the surplus labor of their neighbors. This is *entirely* a consequence of US foreign policy, executed with the belief that Cuban socialism cannot exist absent the cheap labor of their neighbors.\n
          \n
          The Americans were wrong in the 1960s and again in the late 90s when they predicted the embargo would topple the Castro government. You’re wrong now. Democratic Socialism has nothing to do with Imperialist looting and plundering.
          """
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          > The whole western economy runs on cheap labour and resource extraction from the colonized countries\n
          \n
          A great deal of the western economy runs on cheap imports from industrial rivals, like China and India. But Chinese standard of living has been improving by leaps and bounds, approaching (and in cases exceeding) their western peers. I don’t think it is fair or accurate to say that a Nordish person working in the O&amp;G sector and using an Apple phone is somehow profiting off the back of Chinese labor any more than a Chinese person using a fossil-fuel powered device while working in a phone assembly plant is profiting off Nordic extracted labor.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian social democracy only seems to work because of the imperialism they practice on third world countries\n
          \n
          The articles you’re citing largely focus on the weapons export industry, the knock-on-effects of fossil fuels, and the relationship between economies as a whole. They fail to discuss either the scope or benefit afforded to individual Scandinavians, relative to the handful of senior executives and majority stakeholders in these industries.\n
          \n
          To say the *US democratic model* or the *Middle Eastern monarchy model* are predicated on imperialism would be far more accurate. But, again, the flow of trade is heavily biased towards a minority of residents. The real benefit of Scandinavian socialism isn’t that it grants access to cheap consumer goods. You can get that anywhere - from Qatar to Haiti to Taiwan - without any regard to the social system. The benefit of the Scandinavian model is in how it delivers professional health care and education labor. That’s the primary appeal of the system and it has nothing to do with cheap foreign imports.\n
          \n
          > Success of social democracy is not possible without inflicting inhumane suffering and oppression upon people in the global south\n
          \n
          Success of social democracy is not predicated on the success of a consumerist market economy. Cuba is an excellent counterexample. It implements a raft of policies that are comparable to Scandinavian social services and reaps enormous economic benefits despite being entirely cut off from imperialist trade and cheap labor.\n
          \n
          The real benefits of the consumer economy are the capitalist brokers, not the Scandinavian social democrats.
          """
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          > I’m not talking about things Nordic countries are producing. I’m talking about the basic necessities of life Nordic countries import that are produced by effective slave labour using resources extracted from the global south.\n
          \n
          This has absolutely dick-all to do with their political configuration. It is a consequence of supply and trade routes wholly outside their command. Social Democracy as an organizing principle functions to create and administer domestic civil services and is, if anything, undermined by the process of outsourcing capital and labor demand. The quippy “Nords Bad Because Social Democracy” mischaracterized milquetoast liberalism on the periphery as the kind of expansionist imperialism that Scandinavian states have neither the capacity nor the interest in mustering.\n
          \n
          > These countries piggy back on US imperialism\n
          \n
          Because of their geographic position and ethnic sympathies, not because of their political organization. Were Sweden positioned off the coast of West Africa or deep within the Amazon, it would have a completely different set of social relations. Bolivians and Senegalese socialists do not enjoy parallel social relations, despite desiring much the same in terms of housing, health care, education, and transportation as their Baltic peers.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian companies get to plunder the global south along with the rest of the west, Scandinavians enjoy commodities extracted from the global south by the empire.\n
          \n
          A select group of Scandinavian business interests get a minority stake in the imperial projects of wealthier and more well-armed western nations, on the condition that they police and corral their native populations. The end result is a deteriorating public sector in Scandinavian states, as the profits of imperialism are plowed into neoliberal privatization at home. The benefits of social democracy are not defended by imperialism but clawed back. The institutions of social democracy are not girded but undermined.\n
          \n
          Imperial tendency is adversarial to social democratic institutions and policies, as the profits go not to improved standards of living but greater degrees of surveillance, incarceration, coercion, and media-instigated hysteria.\n
          \n
          That’s the wages of empire. Not cheaper commodities and greater social comforts but grander delusions and more entrenched phobias.\n
          \n
          > The case of Sweden shows that the democracies are curtailed by the domestic capitalists [jacobin.com/…/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-o…](https://jacobin.com/2019/08/sweden-1970s-democratic-socialism-olof-palme-lo)\n
          \n
          > > The Swedish economy got off to a flying start after the end of World War II, a conflict in which Sweden had remained neutral. Sweden benefited from the three-decade-long postwar economic boom, the so-called Trente Glorieuses. As the historian Eric Hobsbawn pointed out, it is perfectly justifiable to characterize the quarter-century between 1950 and 1975 as the period during “which the most dramatic, the fastest, and the most wide-reaching revolution in people’s everyday lives” took place. There was a sort of symbiosis between the capitalists’ demand for mass production and the people’s demand for mass democracy. Fordist welfare societies were created on the foundation of economic growth.\n
          \n
          The case in Sweden showed the bounty of neutrality in the wake of a continent-wide obliteration of domestic capital.\n
          \n
          What’s more…\n
          \n
          > > Sweden was strongly affected by the radicalization of the 1960s. As in most other countries, it began with youth solidarity with the Third World. Swedish opposition to the Vietnam war was broad and influential. Swedish students joined others in demonstrations and in occupations. This new left contributed to pushing socialism further up on the agenda.\n
          \n
          This would posit a distinctly contrary view to what you’re stating above. Far from sympathizing and allying with imperialist states, the Swedes continued their commitment to the non-aligned movement and to independent sovereignty both for themselves and for their Third World peers.\n
          \n
          > > In 1976, the social democrats lost control of the government. This was not — as many in Sweden claim today — because welfare had become too extensive or taxes too high. On the contrary: at the time, no party challenged the solidaristic welfare state, and the new bourgeois government continued to raise taxes. Social democracy’s loss might have been the result of a protest vote against a party that, after ruling for 44 years, had become overly autocratic. (The most important reason for the 1976 electoral loss, however, was the social democrats’ support for an expansion of Swedish nuclear power. This brought it into conflict with the radical environmentalist movement.) By the time the party regained control over the government in 1982, its leaders had accepted the basic principles of neoliberal politics.\n
          \n
          > > Since then, the welfare state had been successively weakened. Increasingly large parts of the public sector have been privatized. The pension system has been fundamentally revised, and today Sweden has growing numbers of poor pensioners. Large sections of the public-owned housing stock have been sold. Today, Sweden is among those European countries whose economic and social divides are increasing most rapidly. This is most notable in increased segregation within the educational sector, which has become increasingly privatized. Bourgeois governments have led the way in this development, but social democrats have accepted the reforms afterward. They have not attempted to launch alternative political platforms.\n
          \n
          So, far from the narrative of imperialist calf-fattening, we’re entering the 80s (a period of consumerist glut) and social democrats are falling out thanks to the conflict between public demand for cheap energy and local environmental activism. They’re embracing neoliberal policies not out of hunger for foreign imports but due to a sag in the post-war boom.\n
          \n
          > > At the same time, despite the political consensus among the leaderships of the different parties, this development is deeply unpopular among Swedish citizens; discontent extends deep within the bourgeois parties’ own core troops. A large majority of the population still supports a commonly owned public sector and is prepared to pay the taxes necessary to finance it. This fact comes as confirmation that the solidaristic welfare state of the 1970s represented a series of collective conquests by broad layers of the Swedish people.\n
          \n
          > > When people in the rest of the world point to Sweden as a prototype, it is these conquests they mean — not the increasingly hollow welfare state that has survived to today.\n
          \n
          These are not conquests of foreign territory but conquests within the Swedish economy of Swedish residents in opposition to foreign investors and military powers.\n
          \n
          The Swedes yearn not for their own foreign feudal lands but for the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          """
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          > Politics are inherently inseparable from economics.\n
          \n
          That doesn’t get you from “Democratic Socialism” to “Imperialism”, as evidenced by your own linked article.\n
          \n
          > They absolutely align with the US because of their political organization.\n
          \n
          Per your own linked article, they remained neutral even after the end of WW2 and sympathized more with the Non-Aligned states than either of the two Superpowers.\n
          \n
          > Nowhere have I argued that socialist structures benefit from imperialism.\n
          \n
          Alright, asshole. I think we’re done.
          """
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          > the short term overall standard of living is raised\n
          \n
          But we’re no longer in the short term. Scandinavian social democracy has been ongoing since the 60s. That’s three generations worth of living standards which have largely leveled off and even begun to decline relative to their Eastern peers as neoliberal trade chews into proletariat standards of living. Scandinavian states were explicitly neutral during the Cold War and *avoided* the imperialist impulses of their southern peers. THIS is the windfall they reaped into the end of the 20th century.\n
          \n
          > However, people in the west enjoyed a far higher standard of living than people in the countries the west has been subjugating\n
          \n
          This has been less and less true since the 90s, as the western states become heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. It is the Middle Eastern bloc that’s seen all the real material benefits of imperial subjugation. Dubai and Riyahd and Amman and even Tehran have seen enormous windfalls. Folks in London and Boston and Berlin have not. Standards of living in Scandinavian states are *slipping* and poverty is [rising](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1274305/at-risk-poverty-rate-nordics-country/) (abet marginally).\n
          \n
          > If you look at the supply chains for practically any goods, such as cell phones, you’ll see that most of the resources needed to produce these goods are extracted in places like Africa using slave labor.\n
          \n
          Scandinavian social democracy has nothing to do with American / East Asian materials extraction patterns. What’s more, as Chinese business interests take over traditionally western owned-and-operated enterprises along the African coastline, quality of life is improving. We saw this first in South Africa, as it joined the BRICS block and pivoted away from reliance exclusively on US/UK monetary policy. But we’re seeing it in Somalia, Kenya, Madagascar, and the DRC as well.\n
          \n
          Should we *laud* Scandinavians because their purchase of electronics is finally becoming a boon for African miners? Should we laud democratic socialism for this transition? Of course not. Neither should we defame it for the atrocities committed by American, English, French, and Spanish post-colonial corporate thugs. No more than we should blame a shopper at an American grocery store for the crimes committed by the United Fruit Company.\n
          \n
          > I’m talking about how Cuba behaves as a nation and we can also look at how USSR behaved.\n
          \n
          Cuba’s trade practices are strictly regulated by the American Navy and Coast Guard. Meanwhile, their retail markets and agricultural/biotech exports are what would inevitably draw in the exact same criminally sourced consumer goods. This isn’t a problem of Cuban (or Nordic) social democracy. It is a problem of foreign monopolistic exporters in occupied regions of the global south. And the Scandinavians, at least, lack a meaningful contribution to that project. The citations you link to are token at best. Akin to blaming Poland for the invasion of Iraq in '03.\n
          \n
          > USSR did not subjugate other nations the way the west does, and when it collapsed the standard of living in places like Cuba, Vietnam, and Korea also collapsed because they had a mutually beneficial relationship with USSR.\n
          \n
          At which point they had to reorganize and reestablish new trade ties in order to rebuild their living standards. But this had to do with access to developed industrial capital, not the exploitation of labor through imperial expansion.\n
          \n
          > Democratic Socialism is just a the sheep’s clothing of imperialism.\n
          \n
          Implementing public professional services in the domestic market (or not) has no impact on your foreign policy.
          """
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          > The reality is that it’s both.\n
          \n
          That is not the reality, unless you’re going to explain how public education and biotech are extractionary. And if that’s your game, you’re going to have to explain Cuba.\n
          \n
          > That’s just a false narrative.\n
          \n
          The US system of empire is failing, from the industrial bedrock of the Chinese cities to the farmlands of Ukraine to the mountains of Bolivia. Maybe Blinken (or the next guy) will turn things around, but we’ve been losing traction since the end of the Bush Era pretty much globally.\n
          \n
          > Scandinavian states participate in the plunder\n
          \n
          The Scandinavian state services responsible for education, health care, and transportation had no discernible role in the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan, the bulk fabrication of arms and armor in Ukraine, the string of failed coups in Latin America, or the ongoing occupation of Japan, Korea, Indonesia, and the Philippines in the Mid-Atlantic. They weren’t even NATO members until very recently.\n
          \n
          This as dick-all to do with democratic socialism and singling these countries out as responsible fully whitewashes the conflict.\n
          \n
          > the benefits however are never permanent and end up being rolled back in times of regular capitalist crises\n
          \n
          The benefits are only rolled back when the democracies themselves are curtailed, as the states are bombarded with fascist propaganda via foreign media. A compelling argument for a Scandinavian Firewall, but a piss poor criticism of the democratic institutions themselves.\n
          \n
          > Social democracy isn’t part of any transition, it’s a mechanism that props up current capitalist relations.\n
          \n
          Capital relations are degraded through the imposition of social democratic reforms. And as residents rely on these reforms to sustain themselves, they become intractable. Only by unleashing fascist media, shock doctrine economics, and foreign coercion on a country do you curb the transitionary process. That’s exactly what western political strategy has been for the last 60 years.\n
          \n
          > Not sure what that’s referring to even.\n
          \n
          What nascent leftists and left-liberals find appealing about the Scandinavian states are the high quality low cost public services.
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    > The difference is that there were stronger social safety nets erected at the peak\n
    \n
    Which were rooted in domestic industry and professional services, not extractionary practices targeting populations abroad. The erosion of these social safety nets has matched the erosion of labor unions, socialist organization, and left-wing party activity within the Scandinavian states.\n
    \n
    > the west has continued to dominate the global south\n
    \n
    Western state control of the Global South has eroded with the outsourcing of US domestic industry abroad - particularly in the wake of the 1980s, when industry transplanted itself to the South Pacific. Latin American states are no longer dominated by western military juntas. African states are increasingly free of colonial and apartheidist regimes. South Pacific states are operating at parity with their western peers, rather than as occupied subordinates.\n
    \n
    But even outside of this fact, the Scandinavian states are nearly non-existent in western foreign policy. Finland only just joined NATO, for instance. And only thanks to a collapse in European-Russian foreign policy relations, which I’d count as a mark against imperial domination rather than one in its favor.\n
    \n
    > USSR was not under these restrictions and did not behave in the way you suggest\n
    \n
    The US actively embargoed Soviet States starting with the Mutual Defense Assistance Act of 1951. These sanctions continued into the 1990s and were slowly repealed under Clinton and then Bush in exchange for concessions by the United Russia government of Yeltsin and then Putin. What trade did occur was not inhibited by any some moral compunction of Soviet leaders. Exxon did business with the Soviets well into the 1980s, for instance.\n
    \n
    > USSR was able to have positive mutually beneficial relations with their partners as opposed to exploitative ones\n
    \n
    That’s simply not true. The USSR had strategic partnerships with a host of left-leaning governments. But these were driven by tactical considerations, not ethical ones. The Soviets were happy enough to trade with the Israelis all through the Cold War period and with both England and France for most of its history. Meanwhile, the Sino-Soviet split persisted for decades despite the mutual benefit a Russia/China alliance would have had both for the region and for international communism broadly.\n
    \n
    Soviets would routinely aid domestic revolutionary forces against colonial governments if it suited their needs, but were happy enough to back Syrian military dictators and Romanian dipshit demagogues entirely out of Realpolitik.\n
    \n
    > It’s not possible to have any meaningful democracy when the means of production are owned privately.\n
    \n
    Social democracy creates public institutions that control the means of production within their fields. But the public institutions tend to be confined to education, health care, transport and other civil services. They don’t extend out to the industrial wing of the economy.\n
    \n
    So if you want meaningful democracy, you’re going to be doing some social democracy at some point in your transition. Freaking out at people who organize towards publicly financed colleges and hospitals and calling them evil imperialists will do nothing to advance the cause of public ownership in the industrial sector.
    """
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66 DENIED moderate 
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68 DENIED moderate 
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
69 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
70 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
71 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1729
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2708 …}
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
72 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
73 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
74 DENIED moderate 
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
75 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1526
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
76 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1526
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: null
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
77 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
78 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
79 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1527
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
80 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1527
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     …2
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
81 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
82 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2327
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   …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
83 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2327
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
84 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2327
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
85 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
86 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
87 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2325
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
88 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2325
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
89 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
90 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "Shots-fired"
  +title: "Shots fired."
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/487287b4-2c95-471c-b8ff-424c6be0a714.jpeg"
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  +type: "image"
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  +lastActive: DateTime @1710993149 {#2705
    date: 2024-03-21 04:52:29.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2710 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2117
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        Paul Erdos is in many obscure books.\n
        \n
        John Nash will forever be known as the guy who looked at a gaggle of cute girls and invented a mathematical model for getting the most guys laid.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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      +score: 0
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      }
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      +mentions: [
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        "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
      ]
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      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2120 …}
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        date: 2024-01-01 03:59:41.0 +01:00
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704067039 {#2687
    date: 2024-01-01 00:57:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
91 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "Shots-fired"
  +title: "Shots fired."
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/487287b4-2c95-471c-b8ff-424c6be0a714.jpeg"
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  }
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2710 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2117
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        Paul Erdos is in many obscure books.\n
        \n
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        """
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        date: 2024-03-11 09:34:00.0 +01:00
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        date: 2024-01-01 03:59:41.0 +01:00
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704067039 {#2687
    date: 2024-01-01 00:57:19.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
92 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "Shots-fired"
  +title: "Shots fired."
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  +body: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2710 …}
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  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2717 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2117
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        Paul Erdos is in many obscure books.\n
        \n
        John Nash will forever be known as the guy who looked at a gaggle of cute girls and invented a mathematical model for getting the most guys laid.
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704067039 {#2687
    date: 2024-01-01 00:57:19.0 +01:00
  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
93 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
94 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2117
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  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
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    +title: "Shots fired."
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    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
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      date: 2024-01-01 00:57:19.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
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    Paul Erdos is in many obscure books.\n
    \n
    John Nash will forever be known as the guy who looked at a gaggle of cute girls and invented a mathematical model for getting the most guys laid.
    """
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  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2122 …}
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  -id: 269055
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    date: 2024-01-01 03:59:41.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
95 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2117
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
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    +title: "Shots fired."
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    }
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     …2
  }
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    Paul Erdos is in many obscure books.\n
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    John Nash will forever be known as the guy who looked at a gaggle of cute girls and invented a mathematical model for getting the most guys laid.
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  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1710146040 {#2114
    date: 2024-03-11 09:34:00.0 +01:00
  }
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    date: 2024-01-01 03:59:41.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 269055
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
96 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2117
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2121
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2602 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
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    +title: "Shots fired."
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    }
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2710 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2719 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2721 …}
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      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2117}
    ]
    -id: 26365
    -titleTs: "'fire':2 'shot':1"
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    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
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    Paul Erdos is in many obscure books.\n
    \n
    John Nash will forever be known as the guy who looked at a gaggle of cute girls and invented a mathematical model for getting the most guys laid.
    """
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    "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
97 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
98 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2027
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2521 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
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  +title: "Ragrets"
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  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#2013
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    date: 2023-12-12 20:01:07.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
99 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2027
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2521 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
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    date: 2023-12-12 20:01:07.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
100 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2027
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2521 …}
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  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
101 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
102 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2013
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
103 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2013
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2027
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2521 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
    +slug: "Ragrets"
    +title: "Ragrets"
    +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/9a313324-5e01-446e-8ab3-15b0cfc8bf83.png"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1703259615 {#2679
      date: 2023-12-22 16:40:15.0 +01:00
    }
    +ip: null
    +adaAmount: 0
    +tags: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2685 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2695 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2697 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2013}
    ]
    -id: 21910
    -titleTs: "'ragret':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1702494067
    +visibility: "visible             "
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    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702407667 {#2599
      date: 2023-12-12 20:01:07.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: "It is always worth remembering that the difference between a guy making $60k and a guy making $600k is about $540k."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 12
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1704092870 {#2012
    date: 2024-01-01 08:07:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2035 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2036 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2144 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2061 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
  -id: 219017
  -bodyTs: "'540k':21 '600k':18 '60k':13 'alway':3 'differ':8 'guy':11,16 'make':12,17 'rememb':5 'worth':4"
  +ranking: 0
  +commentCount: 0
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +visibility: "visible             "
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702408158 {#2020
    date: 2023-12-12 20:09:18.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 219017
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
104 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2013
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#2027
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2521 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
    +slug: "Ragrets"
    +title: "Ragrets"
    +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/9a313324-5e01-446e-8ab3-15b0cfc8bf83.png"
    +body: null
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    }
    +ip: null
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2685 …}
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    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2699 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2701 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2703 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#2013}
    ]
    -id: 21910
    -titleTs: "'ragret':1"
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    +cross: false
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    +ranking: 1702494067
    +visibility: "visible             "
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    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702407667 {#2599
      date: 2023-12-12 20:01:07.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: "It is always worth remembering that the difference between a guy making $60k and a guy making $600k is about $540k."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 12
  +score: 0
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    date: 2024-01-01 08:07:50.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2035 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2036 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2144 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2061 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2084 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2076 …}
  -id: 219017
  -bodyTs: "'540k':21 '600k':18 '60k':13 'alway':3 'differ':8 'guy':11,16 'make':12,17 'rememb':5 'worth':4"
  +ranking: 0
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  +upVotes: 0
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  +visibility: "visible             "
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1702408158 {#2020
    date: 2023-12-12 20:09:18.0 +01:00
  }
  +"title": 219017
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
105 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
106 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2786 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "This-would-have-been-a-better-WoT-meme"
  +title: "This would have been a better WoT meme."
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3678a3a9-e1d1-4305-b51e-6cc2ec013f47.jpeg"
  +body: """
    But the wheel weaves as the weave wills, Mandragon.\n
    \n
    Plant: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum)\n
    \n
    Folk medicine: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake)\n
    \n
    > BE
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 8
  +favouriteCount: 143
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700049686 {#2781
    date: 2023-11-15 13:01:26.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2788 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2790 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2792 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2794 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2796 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2798 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        Me, trying to understand this meme.\n
        \n
        ![](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/93b31e2d-9040-40d9-b475-9eedfbb532b0.jpeg)
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-11-18 11:43:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
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      +mentions: [
        "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
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      -id: 125276
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      +ranking: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700000521 {#1625
        date: 2023-11-14 23:22:01.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 125276
    }
  ]
  -id: 13089
  -titleTs: "'better':6 'meme':8 'wot':7 'would':2"
  -bodyTs: "'/wiki/mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandragora_officinarum)':13 '/wiki/mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandrake)':18 'en.wikipedia.org':12,17 'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandragora_officinarum)':11 'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandrake)':16 'folk':14 'mandragon':9 'medicin':15 'plant':10 'weav':4,7 'wheel':3 'will':8"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700083482
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://mander.xyz/post/6174867"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700246292 {#2767
    date: 2023-11-17 19:38:12.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699997082 {#2744
    date: 2023-11-14 22:24:42.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
107 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2786 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "This-would-have-been-a-better-WoT-meme"
  +title: "This would have been a better WoT meme."
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3678a3a9-e1d1-4305-b51e-6cc2ec013f47.jpeg"
  +body: """
    But the wheel weaves as the weave wills, Mandragon.\n
    \n
    Plant: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum)\n
    \n
    Folk medicine: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake)\n
    \n
    > BE
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 8
  +favouriteCount: 143
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700049686 {#2781
    date: 2023-11-15 13:01:26.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2788 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2790 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2792 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2794 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2796 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2798 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        Me, trying to understand this meme.\n
        \n
        ![](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/93b31e2d-9040-40d9-b475-9eedfbb532b0.jpeg)
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-11-18 11:43:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
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      +mentions: [
        "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1726 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1732 …}
      -id: 125276
      -bodyTs: "'/pictrs/image/93b31e2d-9040-40d9-b475-9eedfbb532b0.jpeg)':9 'hexbear.net':8 'hexbear.net/pictrs/image/93b31e2d-9040-40d9-b475-9eedfbb532b0.jpeg)':7 'meme':6 'tri':2 'understand':4"
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        date: 2023-11-14 23:22:01.0 +01:00
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      +"title": 125276
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  ]
  -id: 13089
  -titleTs: "'better':6 'meme':8 'wot':7 'would':2"
  -bodyTs: "'/wiki/mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandragora_officinarum)':13 '/wiki/mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandrake)':18 'en.wikipedia.org':12,17 'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandragora_officinarum)':11 'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/mandrake)':16 'folk':14 'mandragon':9 'medicin':15 'plant':10 'weav':4,7 'wheel':3 'will':8"
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1700083482
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://mander.xyz/post/6174867"
  +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700246292 {#2767
    date: 2023-11-17 19:38:12.0 +01:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699997082 {#2744
    date: 2023-11-14 22:24:42.0 +01:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
108 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2786 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
  +slug: "This-would-have-been-a-better-WoT-meme"
  +title: "This would have been a better WoT meme."
  +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3678a3a9-e1d1-4305-b51e-6cc2ec013f47.jpeg"
  +body: """
    But the wheel weaves as the weave wills, Mandragon.\n
    \n
    Plant: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum)\n
    \n
    Folk medicine: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake)\n
    \n
    > BE
    """
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 8
  +favouriteCount: 143
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1700049686 {#2781
    date: 2023-11-15 13:01:26.0 +01:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2788 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2790 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2792 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2794 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2796 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2798 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
      +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: null
      +root: null
      +body: """
        Me, trying to understand this meme.\n
        \n
        ![](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/93b31e2d-9040-40d9-b475-9eedfbb532b0.jpeg)
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-11-18 11:43:07.0 +01:00
      }
      +ip: null
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      +mentions: [
        "@fossilesque@mander.xyz"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
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  -id: 13089
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    date: 2023-11-17 19:38:12.0 +01:00
  }
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    date: 2023-11-14 22:24:42.0 +01:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
109 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
110 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1617
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2154 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2786 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
    +slug: "This-would-have-been-a-better-WoT-meme"
    +title: "This would have been a better WoT meme."
    +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3678a3a9-e1d1-4305-b51e-6cc2ec013f47.jpeg"
    +body: """
      But the wheel weaves as the weave wills, Mandragon.\n
      \n
      Plant: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum)\n
      \n
      Folk medicine: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake)\n
      \n
      > BE
      """
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    -id: 13089
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    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-11-17 19:38:12.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699997082 {#2744
      date: 2023-11-14 22:24:42.0 +01:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
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  +body: """
    Me, trying to understand this meme.\n
    \n
    ![](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/93b31e2d-9040-40d9-b475-9eedfbb532b0.jpeg)
    """
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  +"title": 125276
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
111 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2786 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
    +slug: "This-would-have-been-a-better-WoT-meme"
    +title: "This would have been a better WoT meme."
    +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3678a3a9-e1d1-4305-b51e-6cc2ec013f47.jpeg"
    +body: """
      But the wheel weaves as the weave wills, Mandragon.\n
      \n
      Plant: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum)\n
      \n
      Folk medicine: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake)\n
      \n
      > BE
      """
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    +cross: false
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    +editedAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700246292 {#2767
      date: 2023-11-17 19:38:12.0 +01:00
    }
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699997082 {#2744
      date: 2023-11-14 22:24:42.0 +01:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    Me, trying to understand this meme.\n
    \n
    ![](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/93b31e2d-9040-40d9-b475-9eedfbb532b0.jpeg)
    """
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700000521 {#1625
    date: 2023-11-14 23:22:01.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 125276
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
112 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2786 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2684 …}
    +slug: "This-would-have-been-a-better-WoT-meme"
    +title: "This would have been a better WoT meme."
    +url: "https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/3678a3a9-e1d1-4305-b51e-6cc2ec013f47.jpeg"
    +body: """
      But the wheel weaves as the weave wills, Mandragon.\n
      \n
      Plant: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandragora_officinarum)\n
      \n
      Folk medicine: [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake)\n
      \n
      > BE
      """
    +type: "image"
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    -id: 13089
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    +cross: false
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      date: 2023-11-17 19:38:12.0 +01:00
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1699997082 {#2744
      date: 2023-11-14 22:24:42.0 +01:00
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1731 …}
  +image: null
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  +body: """
    Me, trying to understand this meme.\n
    \n
    ![](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/93b31e2d-9040-40d9-b475-9eedfbb532b0.jpeg)
    """
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1700000521 {#1625
    date: 2023-11-14 23:22:01.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 125276
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
113 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
114 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2224 …}
  +body: "Certainly possible that elements were AI generated. However, this image feels like it had *someone* putting polish on it. The symmetry - both in the setting and in the focal point of the image - plus the sharper color contrast particularly between the red of Mt. Doom and the blue of the mountains and the way that you get a real sense of light coming directly from the volcano and radiating out into the rest of the image. Someone definitely had their hands on this in a material way, even if it was just moving clip-art onto a canvas and tweaking the colors a bit."
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    "@juli@programming.dev"
    "@st3ph3n@midwest.social"
    "@juli@programming.dev"
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    "@juli@programming.dev"
    "@st3ph3n@midwest.social"
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  -id: 282586
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    date: 2024-04-01 11:49:16.0 +02:00
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704466832 {#2126
    date: 2024-01-05 16:00:32.0 +01:00
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  +"title": 282586
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
115 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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  +body: "Certainly possible that elements were AI generated. However, this image feels like it had *someone* putting polish on it. The symmetry - both in the setting and in the focal point of the image - plus the sharper color contrast particularly between the red of Mt. Doom and the blue of the mountains and the way that you get a real sense of light coming directly from the volcano and radiating out into the rest of the image. Someone definitely had their hands on this in a material way, even if it was just moving clip-art onto a canvas and tweaking the colors a bit."
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    date: 2024-04-01 11:49:16.0 +02:00
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704466832 {#2126
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  +"title": 282586
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
116 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2043
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  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2224 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2224 …}
  +body: "Certainly possible that elements were AI generated. However, this image feels like it had *someone* putting polish on it. The symmetry - both in the setting and in the focal point of the image - plus the sharper color contrast particularly between the red of Mt. Doom and the blue of the mountains and the way that you get a real sense of light coming directly from the volcano and radiating out into the rest of the image. Someone definitely had their hands on this in a material way, even if it was just moving clip-art onto a canvas and tweaking the colors a bit."
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    date: 2024-01-05 16:00:32.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
117 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
118 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1556
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2784 …}
  +slug: "Games-Now-vs-Back-Then"
  +title: "Games Now vs Back Then"
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  +children: [
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
      +image: null
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        Its so easy to forget all the garbage games that got churned out 20 years ago. Even the good games - your FF7s and Warcraft 2s - had their share of notorious glitches.\n
        \n
        The ability to patch a game after release has definitely not improved first-iteration releases. But you can go out and get a copy of Skyrim or Resident Evil 7 or Dragon Quest 9 and play it with a very reasonable degree of confidence that it will work end-to-end as intended. You can’t say the same thing about Super Mario 64 or Mortal Kombat 3. Hell, the whole speedrunning community has to distinguish between “glitched” and “glitchless” runs, precisely because finding glitches in classic games is such a pivotal part of beating them in record times.
        """
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    date: 2023-10-26 15:45:37.0 +02:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
119 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1556
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  +image: null
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  +slug: "Games-Now-vs-Back-Then"
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      +image: null
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        Its so easy to forget all the garbage games that got churned out 20 years ago. Even the good games - your FF7s and Warcraft 2s - had their share of notorious glitches.\n
        \n
        The ability to patch a game after release has definitely not improved first-iteration releases. But you can go out and get a copy of Skyrim or Resident Evil 7 or Dragon Quest 9 and play it with a very reasonable degree of confidence that it will work end-to-end as intended. You can’t say the same thing about Super Mario 64 or Mortal Kombat 3. Hell, the whole speedrunning community has to distinguish between “glitched” and “glitchless” runs, precisely because finding glitches in classic games is such a pivotal part of beating them in record times.
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    date: 2023-10-26 15:45:37.0 +02:00
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   …2
}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
120 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1556
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        Its so easy to forget all the garbage games that got churned out 20 years ago. Even the good games - your FF7s and Warcraft 2s - had their share of notorious glitches.\n
        \n
        The ability to patch a game after release has definitely not improved first-iteration releases. But you can go out and get a copy of Skyrim or Resident Evil 7 or Dragon Quest 9 and play it with a very reasonable degree of confidence that it will work end-to-end as intended. You can’t say the same thing about Super Mario 64 or Mortal Kombat 3. Hell, the whole speedrunning community has to distinguish between “glitched” and “glitchless” runs, precisely because finding glitches in classic games is such a pivotal part of beating them in record times.
        """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
125 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
126 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
127 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1691
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2764 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2805 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2807 …}
  +slug: "Sometimes-you-just-gotta-an-unstoppable-force-and-go-through"
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    date: 2023-11-02 16:56:52.0 +01:00
  }
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2808 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2810 …}
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2816 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2818 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1691 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1698933551 {#2787
    date: 2023-11-02 14:59:11.0 +01:00
  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
128 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1691
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2764 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2805 …}
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2808 …}
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1698933551 {#2787
    date: 2023-11-02 14:59:11.0 +01:00
  }
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
129 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
130 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
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     …2
  }
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    date: 2023-11-02 15:26:05.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
131 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1691
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2764 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2805 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2807 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2816 …}
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      date: 2023-11-02 14:59:11.0 +01:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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    date: 2023-11-02 15:26:05.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
132 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686
  +user: App\Entity\User {#261 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1691
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2764 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1572 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2805 …}
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     …2
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
133 DENIED ROLE_ADMIN 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
134 DENIED ROLE_MODERATOR 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
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