GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/index.php/m/memes@lemmy.ml/t/27630/Crony-Capitalism-is-Libertarian-cope/newest

Response
200 OK
IP
216.73.216.57
Profiled on
Token
b8b955

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 4.96 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.08 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#2388
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "memes"
    +description: """
      #### Rules:\n
      \n
      1. Be civil and nice.\n
      2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 5926
    +entryCommentCount: 65073
    +postCount: 25
    +postCommentCount: 152
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#276
      date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#238 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#234 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#223 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#181 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#139 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#201 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#118 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#104 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#72 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#61 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1820 …}
    -id: 38
    +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#270
      date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#272
      date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1962 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1924 …}
  +slug: "Crony-Capitalism-is-Libertarian-cope"
  +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/889f6f52-79f6-4bb0-8fe3-e9a7d10aa1a1.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 30
  +favouriteCount: 501
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1723532064 {#2410
    date: 2024-08-13 08:54:24.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1973 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1948 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1927 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2442 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2440 …}
  +children: []
  -id: 27630
  -titleTs: "'capit':2 'cope':5 'croni':1 'libertarian':4"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1704639072
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/10194792"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704552672 {#1850
    date: 2024-01-06 15:51:12.0 +01:00
  }
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Entry {#2388
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "memes"
    +description: """
      #### Rules:\n
      \n
      1. Be civil and nice.\n
      2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 5926
    +entryCommentCount: 65073
    +postCount: 25
    +postCommentCount: 152
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#276
      date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#238 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#234 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#223 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#181 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#139 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#201 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#118 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#104 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#72 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#61 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1820 …}
    -id: 38
    +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#270
      date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#272
      date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1962 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1924 …}
  +slug: "Crony-Capitalism-is-Libertarian-cope"
  +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/889f6f52-79f6-4bb0-8fe3-e9a7d10aa1a1.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 30
  +favouriteCount: 501
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1723532064 {#2410
    date: 2024-08-13 08:54:24.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1973 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1948 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1927 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2442 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2440 …}
  +children: []
  -id: 27630
  -titleTs: "'capit':2 'cope':5 'croni':1 'libertarian':4"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1704639072
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/10194792"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704552672 {#1850
    date: 2024-01-06 15:51:12.0 +01:00
  }
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#2388
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
    +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "memes"
    +description: """
      #### Rules:\n
      \n
      1. Be civil and nice.\n
      2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
      """
    +rules: null
    +subscriptionsCount: 1
    +entryCount: 5926
    +entryCommentCount: 65073
    +postCount: 25
    +postCommentCount: 152
    +isAdult: false
    +customCss: null
    +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#276
      date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
    }
    +markedForDeletionAt: null
    +tags: null
    +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#238 …}
    +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#234 …}
    +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#223 …}
    +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#181 …}
    +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#139 …}
    +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#201 …}
    +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#118 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#104 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
    +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#72 …}
    +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#61 …}
    +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1820 …}
    -id: 38
    +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
    +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
    +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
    +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
    +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
    +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
    +apDiscoverable: true
    +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
    +privateKey: null
    +publicKey: null
    +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#270
      date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
    }
    +apDeletedAt: null
    +apTimeoutAt: null
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#272
      date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
    }
  }
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1962 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1924 …}
  +slug: "Crony-Capitalism-is-Libertarian-cope"
  +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/889f6f52-79f6-4bb0-8fe3-e9a7d10aa1a1.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 30
  +favouriteCount: 501
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1723532064 {#2410
    date: 2024-08-13 08:54:24.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1886 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1973 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1948 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1927 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2442 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2440 …}
  +children: []
  -id: 27630
  -titleTs: "'capit':2 'cope':5 'croni':1 'libertarian':4"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1704639072
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/10194792"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704552672 {#1850
    date: 2024-01-06 15:51:12.0 +01:00
  }
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
5 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
6 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4001
  +user: App\Entity\User {#3949 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
      +entryCount: 5926
      +entryCommentCount: 65073
      +postCount: 25
      +postCommentCount: 152
      +isAdult: false
      +customCss: null
      +lastActive: DateTime @1729583092 {#276
        date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
      +tags: null
      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#238 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#234 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#223 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#181 …}
      +posts: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#139 …}
      +subscriptions: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#201 …}
      +bans: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#118 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#104 …}
      +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#82 …}
      +logs: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#72 …}
      +awards: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#61 …}
      +categories: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1820 …}
      -id: 38
      +apId: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +apProfileId: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
      +apPublicUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes"
      +apFollowersUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/c/memes/followers"
      +apInboxUrl: "https://lemmy.ml/inbox"
      +apDomain: "lemmy.ml"
      +apPreferredUsername: "memes"
      +apDiscoverable: true
      +apManuallyApprovesFollowers: null
      +privateKey: null
      +publicKey: null
      +apFetchedAt: DateTime @1728572889 {#270
        date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
      }
      +apDeletedAt: null
      +apTimeoutAt: null
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1696428223 {#272
        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1962 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1924 …}
    +slug: "Crony-Capitalism-is-Libertarian-cope"
    +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/889f6f52-79f6-4bb0-8fe3-e9a7d10aa1a1.jpeg"
    +body: null
    +type: "image"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 30
    +favouriteCount: 501
    +score: 0
    +isAdult: false
    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1723532064 {#2410
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
7 DENIED edit 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
8 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4001
  +user: App\Entity\User {#3949 …}
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        #### Rules:\n
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
9 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
10 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033
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        #### Rules:\n
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
11 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
12 DENIED moderate 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
13 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
14 DENIED moderate 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
15 DENIED edit 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
17 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
18 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
20 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4272
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  }
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
21 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
22 DENIED moderate 
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
28 DENIED moderate 
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        #### Rules:\n
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    You don’t know what any of those words mean.\n
    \n
    And I’m including “a.”
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
29 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
30 DENIED moderate 
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        #### Rules:\n
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      You don’t know what any of those words mean.\n
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      And I’m including “a.”
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
31 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4306
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        #### Rules:\n
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      And I’m including “a.”
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
32 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
33 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
34 DENIED moderate 
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    Layer two of ‘nuh uh, no u.’\n
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    Dull.
    """
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
35 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4376
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        \n
        And I’m including “a.”
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    Layer two of ‘nuh uh, no u.’\n
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
36 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4376
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      +title: "memes"
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        #### Rules:\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
37 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
38 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4429
  +user: App\Entity\User {#4022 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
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      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#238 …}
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      date: 2024-01-06 15:51:12.0 +01:00
    }
  }
  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266}
  +image: null
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#4237 …}
    +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388}
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    +image: null
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          +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388}
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4038 …}
          +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4037 …}
          +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4028 …}
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            date: 2024-01-06 19:12:15.0 +01:00
          }
        }
        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
        +body: """
          You don’t know what any of those words mean.\n
          \n
          And I’m including “a.”
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        }
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          "@Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4238 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4240 …}
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          date: 2024-01-06 22:11:38.0 +01:00
        }
      }
      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
      +body: "Ditto, mate."
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2024-01-07 09:03:40.0 +01:00
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        "@Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz"
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        date: 2024-01-07 09:03:40.0 +01:00
      }
    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
    +body: """
      Layer two of ‘nuh uh, no u.’\n
      \n
      Dull.
      """
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
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      date: 2024-01-07 09:25:23.0 +01:00
    }
  }
  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
  +body: "Ah yes and the “you’re stupid” approach is the height of intellectual conversation."
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  }
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    "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
    "@Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz"
    "@mindbleach@sh.itjust.works"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4430 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4432 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4434 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4436 …}
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    date: 2024-01-07 16:55:30.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
39 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4429
  +user: App\Entity\User {#4022 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
      +rules: null
      +subscriptionsCount: 1
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#238 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#234 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#223 …}
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        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
      }
    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1962 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1924 …}
    +slug: "Crony-Capitalism-is-Libertarian-cope"
    +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
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      date: 2024-01-06 15:51:12.0 +01:00
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  }
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            "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
          ]
          +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4038 …}
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            date: 2024-01-06 19:12:15.0 +01:00
          }
        }
        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
        +body: """
          You don’t know what any of those words mean.\n
          \n
          And I’m including “a.”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
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          date: 2024-01-06 22:11:38.0 +01:00
        }
      }
      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
      +body: "Ditto, mate."
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2024-01-07 09:03:40.0 +01:00
      }
    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
    +body: """
      Layer two of ‘nuh uh, no u.’\n
      \n
      Dull.
      """
    +lang: "en"
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    "@mindbleach@sh.itjust.works"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
40 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4429
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
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        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
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  }
  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266}
  +image: null
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        }
        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
        +body: """
          You don’t know what any of those words mean.\n
          \n
          And I’m including “a.”
          """
        +lang: "en"
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      }
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      +body: "Ditto, mate."
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
    +body: """
      Layer two of ‘nuh uh, no u.’\n
      \n
      Dull.
      """
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  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
41 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
42 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4499
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
      +rules: null
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        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
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    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1962 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1924 …}
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      date: 2024-01-06 15:51:12.0 +01:00
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  }
  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266}
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            ]
            +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4038 …}
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              date: 2024-01-06 19:12:15.0 +01:00
            }
          }
          +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
          +body: """
            You don’t know what any of those words mean.\n
            \n
            And I’m including “a.”
            """
          +lang: "en"
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        }
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        +body: "Ditto, mate."
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          date: 2024-01-07 09:03:40.0 +01:00
        }
      }
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      +body: """
        Layer two of ‘nuh uh, no u.’\n
        \n
        Dull.
        """
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        date: 2024-01-07 09:25:23.0 +01:00
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    }
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      "@Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz"
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  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
43 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4499
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#4237 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
      +rules: null
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        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
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    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1962 …}
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    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2440 …}
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      date: 2024-01-06 15:51:12.0 +01:00
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  }
  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266}
  +image: null
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    +user: App\Entity\User {#4022 …}
    +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266}
    +image: null
    +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4376
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#4237 …}
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      +image: null
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#4022 …}
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          +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266}
          +image: null
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            +user: App\Entity\User {#4022 …}
            +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388}
            +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266}
            +image: null
            +parent: null
            +root: null
            +body: "“Capitalism” is a tankie cope."
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              "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
            ]
            +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4038 …}
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              date: 2024-01-06 19:12:15.0 +01:00
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          }
          +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
          +body: """
            You don’t know what any of those words mean.\n
            \n
            And I’m including “a.”
            """
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          ]
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        }
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        +body: "Ditto, mate."
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      }
      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
      +body: """
        Layer two of ‘nuh uh, no u.’\n
        \n
        Dull.
        """
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
    +body: "Ah yes and the “you’re stupid” approach is the height of intellectual conversation."
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      "@Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz"
      "@mindbleach@sh.itjust.works"
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  }
  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4033}
  +body: "Layer three."
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    "@Jake_Farm@sopuli.xyz"
    "@mindbleach@sh.itjust.works"
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  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4500 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4502 …}
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
44 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4499
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  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2388
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1943 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#266
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
        1. Be civil and nice.\n
        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
      +rules: null
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:44:52.0 +02:00
      }
      +markedForDeletionAt: null
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      +moderators: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#238 …}
      +ownershipRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#234 …}
      +moderatorRequests: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#223 …}
      +entries: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#181 …}
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        date: 2024-10-10 17:08:09.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-10-04 16:03:43.0 +02:00
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    }
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1962 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1924 …}
    +slug: "Crony-Capitalism-is-Libertarian-cope"
    +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
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          +body: """
            You don’t know what any of those words mean.\n
            \n
            And I’m including “a.”
            """
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        +body: "Ditto, mate."
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        Layer two of ‘nuh uh, no u.’\n
        \n
        Dull.
        """
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
45 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
46 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
47 DENIED edit 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
48 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
49 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
50 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
51 DENIED edit 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
52 DENIED moderate 
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        #### Rules:\n
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
53 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
54 DENIED moderate 
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        #### Rules:\n
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4120}
  +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
55 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4205
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        #### Rules:\n
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56 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
57 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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58 DENIED moderate 
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    [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
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    \n
    [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
59 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4291
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
62 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4344
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        +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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      +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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        date: 2024-01-06 21:29:44.0 +01:00
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4120}
    +body: """
      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
      \n
      Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
      \n
      [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
      """
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      "@davel@lemmy.ml"
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      "@davel@lemmy.ml"
      "@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works"
      "@Grayox@lemmy.ml"
      "@davel@lemmy.ml"
      "@agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works"
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      date: 2024-01-06 21:59:52.0 +01:00
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  }
  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4120}
  +body: """
    Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
    \n
    That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
    """
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    date: 2024-01-07 03:20:52.0 +01:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
63 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4344
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
      +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "memes"
      +description: """
        #### Rules:\n
        \n
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        2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
        """
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    +slug: "Crony-Capitalism-is-Libertarian-cope"
    +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
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      +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4120}
    +body: """
      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
      \n
      Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
      \n
      [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
      """
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    Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
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    That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
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        +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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      +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
      \n
      Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
      \n
      [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
      """
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    Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
    \n
    That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
    """
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        +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
        \n
        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
        \n
        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
        """
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      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
      \n
      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
      """
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    No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
    \n
    Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
    """
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        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
        \n
        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
        \n
        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
        """
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      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
      \n
      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
      """
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    No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
    \n
    Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
    """
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    +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
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          +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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        +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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      +body: """
        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
        \n
        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
        \n
        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
        """
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    +body: """
      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
      \n
      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
      """
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  +body: """
    No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
    \n
    Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
    """
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    +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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      +body: """
        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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    +body: """
      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    Cool. *You* can directly criticize capitalism. Do your grassroots. Don’t hate on Bernie because he is using the most effective tools at his disposal. What he’s doing is, probably, better overall for the general state of socialist thought in this country than any alternative at his disposal.\n
    \n
    You can take direct labor action without denigrating the man for following his path: trying to move the window from inside the system. If you think you can do better, do it. As it stands, do you think you’ve done more, to *actually* shift overall labor sentiment in this country to the left, than he has through his “marginally better” moderate progressivism?
    """
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71 DENIED edit 
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    +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    Cool. *You* can directly criticize capitalism. Do your grassroots. Don’t hate on Bernie because he is using the most effective tools at his disposal. What he’s doing is, probably, better overall for the general state of socialist thought in this country than any alternative at his disposal.\n
    \n
    You can take direct labor action without denigrating the man for following his path: trying to move the window from inside the system. If you think you can do better, do it. As it stands, do you think you’ve done more, to *actually* shift overall labor sentiment in this country to the left, than he has through his “marginally better” moderate progressivism?
    """
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    Cool. *You* can directly criticize capitalism. Do your grassroots. Don’t hate on Bernie because he is using the most effective tools at his disposal. What he’s doing is, probably, better overall for the general state of socialist thought in this country than any alternative at his disposal.\n
    \n
    You can take direct labor action without denigrating the man for following his path: trying to move the window from inside the system. If you think you can do better, do it. As it stands, do you think you’ve done more, to *actually* shift overall labor sentiment in this country to the left, than he has through his “marginally better” moderate progressivism?
    """
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
    \n
    > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
    \n
    Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
    """
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
    \n
    > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
    \n
    Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
    """
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
    \n
    > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
    \n
    Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
    """
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              +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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            +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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            [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
            \n
            Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
            \n
            [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
            """
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          Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
          \n
          That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
          """
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        No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
        \n
        Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
        """
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    +body: """
      I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
      \n
      > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
      \n
      Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
      """
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  +body: """
    [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
    \n
    The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
    \n
    Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
    """
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              +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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            +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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            [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
            \n
            Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
            \n
            [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
            """
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          Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
          \n
          That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
          """
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      +body: """
        No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
        \n
        Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
        """
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    +body: """
      I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
      \n
      > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
      \n
      Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
      """
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    [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
    \n
    The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
    \n
    Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
    """
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              +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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            +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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            [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
            \n
            Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
            \n
            [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
            """
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        +body: """
          Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
          \n
          That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
          """
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      +body: """
        No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
        \n
        Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
        """
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    +body: """
      I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
      \n
      > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
      \n
      Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
      """
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    [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
    \n
    The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
    \n
    Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
    """
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                +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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              +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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              [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
              \n
              Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
              \n
              [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
              """
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          +body: """
            Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
            \n
            That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
            """
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          No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
          \n
          Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
          """
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      +body: """
        I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
        \n
        > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
        \n
        Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
        """
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      [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
      \n
      The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
      \n
      Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
      """
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    Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
    \n
    I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
    """
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                +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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              +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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              [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
              \n
              Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
              \n
              [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
              """
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            Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
            \n
            That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
            """
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          No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
          \n
          Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
          """
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      +body: """
        I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
        \n
        > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
        \n
        Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
        """
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      [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
      \n
      The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
      \n
      Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
      """
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    Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
    \n
    I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
    """
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                +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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              +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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              [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
              \n
              Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
              \n
              [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
              """
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          +body: """
            Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
            \n
            That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
            """
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        +body: """
          No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
          \n
          Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
          """
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      +body: """
        I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
        \n
        > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
        \n
        Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
        """
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      [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
      \n
      The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
      \n
      Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
      """
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    Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
    \n
    I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
    """
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                  +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                \n
                Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                \n
                [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                """
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              Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
              \n
              That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
              """
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            No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
            \n
            Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
            """
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        +body: """
          I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
          \n
          > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
          \n
          Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
          """
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      +body: """
        [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
        \n
        The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
        \n
        Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
        """
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      Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
      \n
      I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
      """
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  +body: """
    I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
    \n
    North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
    \n
    China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
    \n
    It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
    """
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                  +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                \n
                Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                \n
                [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                """
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              Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
              \n
              That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
              """
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            No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
            \n
            Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
            """
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        +body: """
          I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
          \n
          > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
          \n
          Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
          """
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        [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
        \n
        The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
        \n
        Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
        """
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      Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
      \n
      I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
      """
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  +body: """
    I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
    \n
    North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
    \n
    China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
    \n
    It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
    """
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                  +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                \n
                Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                \n
                [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                """
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            +body: """
              Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
              \n
              That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
              """
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            No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
            \n
            Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
            """
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          I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
          \n
          > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
          \n
          Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
          """
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        [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
        \n
        The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
        \n
        Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
        """
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      Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
      \n
      I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
      """
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  +body: """
    I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
    \n
    North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
    \n
    China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
    \n
    It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
    """
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                  [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                  \n
                  Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                  \n
                  [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                  """
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                Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                \n
                That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                """
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              No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
              \n
              Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
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          +body: """
            I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
            \n
            > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
            \n
            Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
            """
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          [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
          \n
          The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
          \n
          Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
          """
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        Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
        \n
        I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
        """
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      I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
      \n
      North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
      \n
      China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
      \n
      It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
      """
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    Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
    \n
    I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
    \n
    But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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                    +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                  +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                  [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                  \n
                  Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                  \n
                  [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                  """
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                Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                \n
                That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                """
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              No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
              \n
              Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
              """
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            I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
            \n
            > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
            \n
            Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
            """
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          [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
          \n
          The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
          \n
          Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
          """
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        Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
        \n
        I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
        """
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      I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
      \n
      North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
      \n
      China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
      \n
      It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
      """
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    Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
    \n
    I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
    \n
    But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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                  +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                  [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                  \n
                  Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                  \n
                  [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                  """
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              +body: """
                Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                \n
                That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                """
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              No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
              \n
              Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
              """
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          +body: """
            I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
            \n
            > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
            \n
            Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
            """
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          [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
          \n
          The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
          \n
          Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
          """
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        Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
        \n
        I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
        """
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    +body: """
      I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
      \n
      North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
      \n
      China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
      \n
      It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
      """
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    Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
    \n
    I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
    \n
    But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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                      +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                    +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                    [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                    \n
                    Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                    \n
                    [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                    """
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                  Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                  \n
                  That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                  """
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                No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                \n
                Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
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              I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
              \n
              > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
              \n
              Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
              """
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            [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
            \n
            The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
            \n
            Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
            """
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          Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
          \n
          I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
          """
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        I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
        \n
        North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
        \n
        China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
        \n
        It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
        """
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      Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
      \n
      I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
      \n
      But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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    > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
    \n
    Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
    \n
    > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
    \n
    I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
    \n
    > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
    \n
    Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
    """
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                      +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                    +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                    [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                    \n
                    Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                    \n
                    [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                    """
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                +body: """
                  Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                  \n
                  That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                  """
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                No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                \n
                Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
                """
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              I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
              \n
              > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
              \n
              Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
              """
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            [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
            \n
            The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
            \n
            Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
            """
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          Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
          \n
          I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
          """
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        I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
        \n
        North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
        \n
        China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
        \n
        It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
        """
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      Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
      \n
      I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
      \n
      But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
      """
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    > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
    \n
    Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
    \n
    > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
    \n
    I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
    \n
    > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
    \n
    Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
    """
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                      +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                    +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                    [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                    \n
                    Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                    \n
                    [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                    """
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                  Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                  \n
                  That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                  """
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                No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                \n
                Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
                """
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              I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
              \n
              > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
              \n
              Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
              """
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            [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
            \n
            The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
            \n
            Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
            """
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          Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
          \n
          I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
          """
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        I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
        \n
        North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
        \n
        China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
        \n
        It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
        """
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      Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
      \n
      I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
      \n
      But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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    > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
    \n
    Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
    \n
    > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
    \n
    I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
    \n
    > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
    \n
    Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
    """
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                        +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                      +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                      \n
                      Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                      \n
                      [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                      """
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                    Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                    \n
                    That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                    """
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                  No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                  \n
                  Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
                  """
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              +body: """
                I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
                \n
                > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
                \n
                Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
                """
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              [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
              \n
              The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
              \n
              Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
              """
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            Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
            \n
            I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
            """
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          I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
          \n
          North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
          \n
          China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
          \n
          It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
          """
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        Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
        \n
        I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
        \n
        But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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      > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
      \n
      Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
      \n
      > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
      \n
      I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
      \n
      > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
      \n
      Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
      """
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    Well I mean we know China blocks a ton of info and publishing must pass state censors. And vpns etc aren’t really allowed there. And Chinese corps have some brutal working conditions. I’m not saying there aren’t things China has done right that we should look into but I don’t see them as a shining example of the working man getting control over his own destiny.\n
    \n
    I will give that book a read but I disagree with your assertion that china, or the soviet union succeeded in bringing socialism and I’ll continue to work with but never trust leninists maoists etc. due to all the historical violence marxist-leninist revolutionaries have used against anarchists and people who believe like me as soon as they have power of their own.
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                        +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                      +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                      \n
                      Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                      \n
                      [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                      """
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                    Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                    \n
                    That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                    """
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                  No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                  \n
                  Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
                  """
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              +body: """
                I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
                \n
                > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
                \n
                Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
                """
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              [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
              \n
              The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
              \n
              Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
              """
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            Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
            \n
            I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
            """
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          I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
          \n
          North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
          \n
          China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
          \n
          It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
          """
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        Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
        \n
        I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
        \n
        But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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      > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
      \n
      Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
      \n
      > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
      \n
      I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
      \n
      > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
      \n
      Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
      """
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    Well I mean we know China blocks a ton of info and publishing must pass state censors. And vpns etc aren’t really allowed there. And Chinese corps have some brutal working conditions. I’m not saying there aren’t things China has done right that we should look into but I don’t see them as a shining example of the working man getting control over his own destiny.\n
    \n
    I will give that book a read but I disagree with your assertion that china, or the soviet union succeeded in bringing socialism and I’ll continue to work with but never trust leninists maoists etc. due to all the historical violence marxist-leninist revolutionaries have used against anarchists and people who believe like me as soon as they have power of their own.
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                        +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                      +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                      \n
                      Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                      \n
                      [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                      """
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                    Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                    \n
                    That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                    """
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                  No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                  \n
                  Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
                  """
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                I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
                \n
                > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
                \n
                Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
                """
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              [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
              \n
              The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
              \n
              Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
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            Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
            \n
            I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
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          I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
          \n
          North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
          \n
          China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
          \n
          It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
          """
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        Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
        \n
        I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
        \n
        But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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      > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
      \n
      Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
      \n
      > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
      \n
      I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
      \n
      > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
      \n
      Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
      """
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    Well I mean we know China blocks a ton of info and publishing must pass state censors. And vpns etc aren’t really allowed there. And Chinese corps have some brutal working conditions. I’m not saying there aren’t things China has done right that we should look into but I don’t see them as a shining example of the working man getting control over his own destiny.\n
    \n
    I will give that book a read but I disagree with your assertion that china, or the soviet union succeeded in bringing socialism and I’ll continue to work with but never trust leninists maoists etc. due to all the historical violence marxist-leninist revolutionaries have used against anarchists and people who believe like me as soon as they have power of their own.
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                          +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                        +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                        \n
                        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                        \n
                        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                        """
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                      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                      \n
                      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                      """
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                    No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                    \n
                    Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
                    """
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                  I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
                  \n
                  > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
                  \n
                  Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
                  """
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                [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
                \n
                The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
                \n
                Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
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              Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
              \n
              I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
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            I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
            \n
            North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
            \n
            China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
            \n
            It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
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          Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
          \n
          I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
          \n
          But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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        > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
        \n
        Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
        \n
        > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
        \n
        I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
        \n
        > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
        \n
        Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
        """
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      Well I mean we know China blocks a ton of info and publishing must pass state censors. And vpns etc aren’t really allowed there. And Chinese corps have some brutal working conditions. I’m not saying there aren’t things China has done right that we should look into but I don’t see them as a shining example of the working man getting control over his own destiny.\n
      \n
      I will give that book a read but I disagree with your assertion that china, or the soviet union succeeded in bringing socialism and I’ll continue to work with but never trust leninists maoists etc. due to all the historical violence marxist-leninist revolutionaries have used against anarchists and people who believe like me as soon as they have power of their own.
      """
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    A few capitalist tech companies started a brutal [996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system) system, which from what I’ve heard was illegal, and the state has since been cracking down on it. I agree that we shouldn’t assume what China has done to be the best possible path, nor should we directly imitate it, because our material conditions are very different from theirs.\n
    \n
    Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
    """
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                          +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                        +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                        \n
                        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                        \n
                        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                        """
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                      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                      \n
                      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                      """
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                    No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                    \n
                    Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
                    """
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                  I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
                  \n
                  > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
                  \n
                  Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
                  """
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                [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
                \n
                The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
                \n
                Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
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              Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
              \n
              I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
              """
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            I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
            \n
            North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
            \n
            China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
            \n
            It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
            """
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          Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
          \n
          I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
          \n
          But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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        > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
        \n
        Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
        \n
        > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
        \n
        I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
        \n
        > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
        \n
        Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
        """
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      Well I mean we know China blocks a ton of info and publishing must pass state censors. And vpns etc aren’t really allowed there. And Chinese corps have some brutal working conditions. I’m not saying there aren’t things China has done right that we should look into but I don’t see them as a shining example of the working man getting control over his own destiny.\n
      \n
      I will give that book a read but I disagree with your assertion that china, or the soviet union succeeded in bringing socialism and I’ll continue to work with but never trust leninists maoists etc. due to all the historical violence marxist-leninist revolutionaries have used against anarchists and people who believe like me as soon as they have power of their own.
      """
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    A few capitalist tech companies started a brutal [996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system) system, which from what I’ve heard was illegal, and the state has since been cracking down on it. I agree that we shouldn’t assume what China has done to be the best possible path, nor should we directly imitate it, because our material conditions are very different from theirs.\n
    \n
    Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
    """
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                          +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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                        +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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                        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
                        \n
                        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
                        \n
                        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
                        """
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                      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
                      \n
                      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
                      """
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                    No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
                    \n
                    Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
                    """
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                  I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
                  \n
                  > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
                  \n
                  Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
                  """
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                [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
                \n
                The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
                \n
                Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
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              Now, is north korea socialist? Do the workers there enjoy democratic control over the means of production? Or really democratic control over anything? I’ll admit that info from North Korea is mostly not great but it seems to me that they are run only by the one ruling family.\n
              \n
              I have similar doubts about china and have always seen it as more state-capitalist than anything else. Simply because it seems to me that individual workers do not own the companies they work at. It seems to me that China has corporations structured almost exactly like our own in the west. Unless I’ve been misled and these massive Chinese corps really are co-ops with the workers having an equal say in the decisions of the company.
              """
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            I think these are very good questions. You can’t rely on [Atlantacist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlanticism) government propaganda or corporate media to get good answers to them, unfortunately. The don’t like there to be any [threats of a good example](https://chomsky.info/unclesam01/), which is why [the CIA tried to assassinate Fidel Castro hundreds of times](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro) and why [Cuba is still under a trade embargo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba). It’s one of the reasons they never stop [attempting regime changes](https://criticalresist.substack.com/p/the-blueprint-of-regime-change-operations) (the other reason being to steal countries’ natural and labor resources).\n
            \n
            North Korea is especially difficult for a Burgerlander like me to get a clear picture of. I hope the Kim dynasty largely acts as a state figurehead, but I haven’t investigated and have no idea.\n
            \n
            China does have a limited capitalism going on right now, which, if I understand correctly, is a part of the ongoing [Reform and Opening Up](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reform_and_Opening_Up) project. From my (still fairly ignorant) P.O.V., I can’t help but imagine a risk to this strategy, where the capitalists become strong enough to wrest control. The project has brought hundreds of millions out of poverty, though. The government recently took the capitalist real estate speculators to heel (to the dismay of capitalists everywhere and the delight of people just wanting a place to live), so it seems they haven’t lost control. Their professed long-term plan is to phase out capitalism entirely.\n
            \n
            It’s worth noting that no Marxist worth their salt will paint any of these socialist countries as utopias, especially given that Marxists reject [utopian socialisms](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopian_socialism).
            """
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          Oh I know that China has lifted lots of people out of poverty and is generally popular with the population. But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control. What I meant with China is it seems to me the state is the capitalists. The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit over the benefits and desires of the workers at those places.\n
          \n
          I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first and my issue with capitalism has always been the authoritarian nature in which we parcel out resources and I can’t see bringing up China or northkorea as examples of what I want. Though I do often have to push back against liberal narratives especially about Vietnam and Cuba and China.\n
          \n
          But I’m not a Marxist though I do think he had some good ideas and was skilled at inspiring class consciousness. Ive always been more inspired by anarchist philosphy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name. I just think that we’ve seen now that a dictatorship of the proletariat doesn’t go away and that you trade one state power for the other.
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        > But they engage in massive censorship among other issues and I just can’t see how there can be a democracy (which I consider the most important component to make something socialist) with that degree of control\n
        \n
        Maybe they do, maybe that’s mostly the propaganda we’re fed. I’m sure that at least some of the “censorship” is the Chinese State keeping foreign capitalist enterprises from dominating China’s indigenous internet.\n
        \n
        > The state has control over all the means of production in the country and I believe it uses it for its own benefit.\n
        \n
        I do think that is predominant (though there are also worker co-ops & individual projects). If China is a [democratic socialist state](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism), then the “it” in “its own benefit” is largely the working class. This is in contrast with a [bourgeois democracy](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Bourgeois_democracy) like the US, where the “it” is largely the capitalist class. Our votes are somewhat effective when they don’t conflict with the capitalists, but otherwise not so much. We get fed a lot of propaganda about socialist states having an authoritarian “ruling class,” analogous to our capitalist class, living high on the hog at the expense of the people, but is that really so, or is it projection?\n
        \n
        > I guess I’m just an anti-authoritarian first […] I’ve always been more inspired by anarchist philosophy and go by Libertarian-socialist if forced to pick a name.\n
        \n
        Quite understandable: I came from that place. It took a lot of convincing, because my heels were pretty dug in to a Noam Chomsky/[Mark Fisher](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Fisher) position. I think one of the quicker/easier ways to seeing arguments on why this position has never and can never succeed, and why the “authoritarianism” of communism has succeeded and is a necessary step on the path to socialism, is Michael Parenti’s [Blackshirts and Reds](https://www.michael-parenti.org/book-blackshirts-and-reds). It’s a short book and as such doesn’t—on its own—provide a whole lot of backing evidence; it’s a jumping-off point for further inquiry.
        """
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      Well I mean we know China blocks a ton of info and publishing must pass state censors. And vpns etc aren’t really allowed there. And Chinese corps have some brutal working conditions. I’m not saying there aren’t things China has done right that we should look into but I don’t see them as a shining example of the working man getting control over his own destiny.\n
      \n
      I will give that book a read but I disagree with your assertion that china, or the soviet union succeeded in bringing socialism and I’ll continue to work with but never trust leninists maoists etc. due to all the historical violence marxist-leninist revolutionaries have used against anarchists and people who believe like me as soon as they have power of their own.
      """
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    A few capitalist tech companies started a brutal [996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system) system, which from what I’ve heard was illegal, and the state has since been cracking down on it. I agree that we shouldn’t assume what China has done to be the best possible path, nor should we directly imitate it, because our material conditions are very different from theirs.\n
    \n
    Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
    """
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                +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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              +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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              [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
              \n
              Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
              \n
              [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
              """
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            Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
            \n
            That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
            """
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          No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
          \n
          Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
          """
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        I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
        \n
        > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
        \n
        Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
        """
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      [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
      \n
      The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
      \n
      Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
      """
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  +body: "Great thank you for the info and links."
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                +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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              [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
              \n
              Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
              \n
              [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
              """
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          +body: """
            Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
            \n
            That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
            """
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        +body: """
          No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
          \n
          Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
          """
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      +body: """
        I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
        \n
        > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
        \n
        Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
        """
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    +body: """
      [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
      \n
      The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
      \n
      Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
      """
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  +body: "Great thank you for the info and links."
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              [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
              \n
              Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
              \n
              [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
              """
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            Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
            \n
            That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
            """
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          No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
          \n
          Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
          """
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      +body: """
        I appreciate all the links you’re posting in this thread, I’m learning a lot.\n
        \n
        > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
        \n
        Which are the socialist states in existence right now? Are European countries socialist? Nordics? I know these classifications are subjective but I would love to hear what you and others think.
        """
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      [Actually Existing Socialisms (AES)](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Actually_Existing_Socialism): *The five predominantly recognized AES states are China, Cuba, Laos, Vietnam, and, [North] Korea*.\n
      \n
      The [Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model) is a [social democratic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy) one, which is still fundamentally a capitalist one. This is what someone like Bernie Sanders claims to want.\n
      \n
      Sanders gets away with calling himself a socialist because Americans have forgotten what [*socialism*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) actually means: “social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership.” Americans have forgotten what *socialism* means because the American socialists were persecuted into obscurity in the 20th century. So now even the *vocabulary* for socialism is lost in [Orwellian fashion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak).
      """
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  +body: "Great thank you for the info and links."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
    \n
    [archive.org/stream/…/1up](https://archive.org/stream/ClassStruggleInSocialistPoland/page/n48/mode/1up)\n
    \n
    [archive.org/stream/…/1up](https://archive.org/stream/ClassStruggleInSocialistPoland/page/n51/mode/1up)
    """
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
    \n
    [archive.org/stream/…/1up](https://archive.org/stream/ClassStruggleInSocialistPoland/page/n48/mode/1up)\n
    \n
    [archive.org/stream/…/1up](https://archive.org/stream/ClassStruggleInSocialistPoland/page/n51/mode/1up)
    """
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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      No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box, though electoralism has its tactical uses in the interim. It’s mostly done through helping the working class develop [class consciousness](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Class_consciousness), through [labor organizing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_union) and [militant labor action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action), through developing [dual power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_power), and then ultimately replacing the [dictatorship of the bourgeoisie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_bourgeoisie) with the [dictatorship of the proletariat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat).\n
      \n
      Few people remember that Communists and other socialists helped us win the weekend and the eight hour workday, and these weren’t won through elections but through labor militancy. They don’t remember because we were purged and memory-holed by [two red scares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Scare) and a cold war.
      """
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    > No socialist State has ever been won at the ballot box\n
    \n
    [archive.org/stream/…/1up](https://archive.org/stream/ClassStruggleInSocialistPoland/page/n48/mode/1up)\n
    \n
    [archive.org/stream/…/1up](https://archive.org/stream/ClassStruggleInSocialistPoland/page/n51/mode/1up)
    """
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    +title: ""Crony Capitalism" is Libertarian cope"
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          +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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        +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
        \n
        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
        \n
        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
        """
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      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
      \n
      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
      """
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  +body: "Marxists, Anarchists, and any other form of leftist stands to gain real traction not from electoralism (outside of highlighting the soon to be mentioned actions), but from organization, such as Unionization."
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        +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
        \n
        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
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        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
        """
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      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
      \n
      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
      """
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  +body: "Marxists, Anarchists, and any other form of leftist stands to gain real traction not from electoralism (outside of highlighting the soon to be mentioned actions), but from organization, such as Unionization."
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        [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
        \n
        Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
        \n
        [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
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      Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
      \n
      That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
      """
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  +body: "Marxists, Anarchists, and any other form of leftist stands to gain real traction not from electoralism (outside of highlighting the soon to be mentioned actions), but from organization, such as Unionization."
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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    +body: "Marxists, Anarchists, and any other form of leftist stands to gain real traction not from electoralism (outside of highlighting the soon to be mentioned actions), but from organization, such as Unionization."
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  +body: "Cool, I agree. But moderately better politicians like Bernie calling out crony capitalism is better than not. Labor is still free to organize."
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            +body: "Progressive liberals like Bernie Sanders aren’t much different and only marginally better, critiquing “crony capitalism” / “neoliberal capitalism” / “uber-capitalism”, without directly challenging capitalism itself."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
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          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
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          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
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        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
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    +body: "Marxists, Anarchists, and any other form of leftist stands to gain real traction not from electoralism (outside of highlighting the soon to be mentioned actions), but from organization, such as Unionization."
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  +body: "Cool, I agree. But moderately better politicians like Bernie calling out crony capitalism is better than not. Labor is still free to organize."
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          +body: "[Political efficacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique), in my opinion, is a better strategy than fruitless idealism."
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          [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
          \n
          Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
          \n
          [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
          """
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        Okie doke. What’s your suggestion then? You think a Marxist candidate can win one of the two primaries? You think a Marxist candidate can beat both parties in the general? What exactly is your alternative to incrementally progressive policy?\n
        \n
        That’s not rhetorical, if you have a serious alternative I’m sincerely eager to hear it.
        """
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    +body: "Marxists, Anarchists, and any other form of leftist stands to gain real traction not from electoralism (outside of highlighting the soon to be mentioned actions), but from organization, such as Unionization."
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  +body: "Cool, I agree. But moderately better politicians like Bernie calling out crony capitalism is better than not. Labor is still free to organize."
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      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
      \n
      Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
      \n
      [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
      """
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      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
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        date: 2024-01-06 21:29:44.0 +01:00
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    +body: """
      [Reformism](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Reformism) keeps not working, as evidenced by the last 45 years of ever-worsening [neoliberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism), but liberals will keep trying anyway.\n
      \n
      Marxists are not [idealists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism); they are [materialists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), specifically, [dialectical materialists](https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Dialectical_materialism).\n
      \n
      [It is the liberals who are the idealists](https://mpbritt.com/liberalism-is-idealism-and-thats-why-it-fails/).
      """
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  +body: "Revolution doesn’t exactly have a good history either. If anything, it’s shown to be a significantly worse option. It’s a pipe dream to believe that a revolutionary party would relinquish political power after gaining it."
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details
125 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Magazine {#266
  +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#247 …}
  +name: "memes@lemmy.ml"
  +title: "memes"
  +description: """
    #### Rules:\n
    \n
    1. Be civil and nice.\n
    2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you *have* to.
    """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details