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Response
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IP
216.73.216.88
Profiled on
Token
dc5278

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
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 0.03 ms (none) 
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Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
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      \n
      - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
      - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
      - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
      - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
      - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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      =====\n
      \n
      - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
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      - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
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      ===================\n
      \n
      - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
      - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
      - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
      - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
      - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
      \n
      Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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  +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
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    TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
    \n
    > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
    \n
    It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
    \n
    What are your thoughts on it?
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Entry {#2414
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1934 …}
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    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
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      All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
      \n
      Useful Links\n
      ============\n
      \n
      - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
      - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
      - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
      - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
      - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
      \n
      Rules\n
      =====\n
      \n
      - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
      - No NSFW content\n
      - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
      \n
      Related Communities\n
      ===================\n
      \n
      - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
      - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
      - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
      - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
      - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
      \n
      Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
      """
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    +visibility: "visible             "
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    TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
    \n
    > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
    \n
    It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
    \n
    What are your thoughts on it?
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\Entry {#2414
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1934 …}
  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262
    +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
    +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
    +title: "opensource"
    +description: """
      All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
      \n
      Useful Links\n
      ============\n
      \n
      - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
      - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
      - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
      - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
      - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
      \n
      Rules\n
      =====\n
      \n
      - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
      - No NSFW content\n
      - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
      \n
      Related Communities\n
      ===================\n
      \n
      - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
      - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
      - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
      - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
      - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
      \n
      Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
      """
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    TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
    \n
    > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
    \n
    It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
    \n
    What are your thoughts on it?
    """
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14 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
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Show voter details
15 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4686
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        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
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        =====\n
        \n
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        \n
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        ===================\n
        \n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
16 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4686
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      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
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      +description: """
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        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
20 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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25 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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26 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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    Well the question is, how would such a license look like? Or would it be a contract and not a license?\n
    \n
    I guess I should ask a lawyer these questions, but I wanted to see what others here thought about the idea.
    """
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27 DENIED edit 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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      Well the question is, how would such a license look like? Or would it be a contract and not a license?\n
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      I guess I should ask a lawyer these questions, but I wanted to see what others here thought about the idea.
      """
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    This to me is a good question. The lack of something concrete that sounds like “yes, that would definitely work” is something that makes me have reservations about this whole thesis… but that said I think it has some merit.\n
    \n
    Mysql and Qt already have a pretty solid model, where there’s a GPL-enabled alternative that the community can use, or you can pay a fee to use the commercial version. You could scale that up to something where if you want to pay a certain fee, you can use *lots* of currently-GPL software (maybe any that’s been assigned to the FSF or something with the FSF shepherding the whole thing). Then, we can stop the sort of benign neglect of companies that are sloppy with their licensing of uboot or Busybox, and just tell them to start paying the fee if they don’t feel like dotting all their "i"s as far as licensing, and then use the fees to fund development of open source software that’s needed but doesn’t have a lot of motivated developers working on it.\n
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        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
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      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      Well the question is, how would such a license look like? Or would it be a contract and not a license?\n
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      I guess I should ask a lawyer these questions, but I wanted to see what others here thought about the idea.
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    This to me is a good question. The lack of something concrete that sounds like “yes, that would definitely work” is something that makes me have reservations about this whole thesis… but that said I think it has some merit.\n
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    Mysql and Qt already have a pretty solid model, where there’s a GPL-enabled alternative that the community can use, or you can pay a fee to use the commercial version. You could scale that up to something where if you want to pay a certain fee, you can use *lots* of currently-GPL software (maybe any that’s been assigned to the FSF or something with the FSF shepherding the whole thing). Then, we can stop the sort of benign neglect of companies that are sloppy with their licensing of uboot or Busybox, and just tell them to start paying the fee if they don’t feel like dotting all their "i"s as far as licensing, and then use the fees to fund development of open source software that’s needed but doesn’t have a lot of motivated developers working on it.\n
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        Useful Links\n
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        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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    +body: """
      Well the question is, how would such a license look like? Or would it be a contract and not a license?\n
      \n
      I guess I should ask a lawyer these questions, but I wanted to see what others here thought about the idea.
      """
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  +body: """
    This to me is a good question. The lack of something concrete that sounds like “yes, that would definitely work” is something that makes me have reservations about this whole thesis… but that said I think it has some merit.\n
    \n
    Mysql and Qt already have a pretty solid model, where there’s a GPL-enabled alternative that the community can use, or you can pay a fee to use the commercial version. You could scale that up to something where if you want to pay a certain fee, you can use *lots* of currently-GPL software (maybe any that’s been assigned to the FSF or something with the FSF shepherding the whole thing). Then, we can stop the sort of benign neglect of companies that are sloppy with their licensing of uboot or Busybox, and just tell them to start paying the fee if they don’t feel like dotting all their "i"s as far as licensing, and then use the fees to fund development of open source software that’s needed but doesn’t have a lot of motivated developers working on it.\n
    \n
    I’m not as convinced that it’s necessary as Perens is. Like I think he overblows by quite a lot the impact of RHEL skirting their licensing, because in his mind RHEL is such a big part of the computing world when in reality it’s not. But it sounds like he’s describing real problems and the solutions make some version of good sense to me.
    """
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34 DENIED moderate 
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
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      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      Well the question is, how would such a license look like? Or would it be a contract and not a license?\n
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      I guess I should ask a lawyer these questions, but I wanted to see what others here thought about the idea.
      """
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36 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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    This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
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Show voter details
39 DENIED edit 
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        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        ===================\n
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    This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
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40 DENIED moderate 
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        \n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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  +body: """
    This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
    \n
    GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
    \n
    If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
    """
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41 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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Show voter details
42 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4594
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        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
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        \n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
      GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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43 DENIED edit 
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
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        \n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
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      \n
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      """
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Show voter details
44 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        \n
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        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
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      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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      -bodyTs: "'anyon':18 'aren':24 'complain':22 'complet':15 'free':16 'get':26 'licens':4 'mean':2 'paid':27 'right':8 'say':12 'use':20"
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        date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: """
      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
      GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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  +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
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}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#4799
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      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
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      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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          date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
    +lang: "en"
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
    \n
    They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
    """
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}
 
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
47 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4799
  +user: App\Entity\User {#4258 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2414
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1934 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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          date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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      }
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      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-31 04:25:38.0 +01:00
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        "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 0
    +score: 0
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      "@actual_patience@programming.dev"
      "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
      "@mo_ztt@lemmy.world"
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    +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4596 …}
    +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4598 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4600 …}
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      date: 2023-12-31 15:51:09.0 +01:00
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  }
  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
    \n
    They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
    """
  +lang: "en"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
48 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4799
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      """
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1703990081 {#4093
          date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
        }
      }
      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-31 04:25:38.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-31 04:25:38.0 +01:00
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2023-12-31 15:51:09.0 +01:00
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
    \n
    They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
    """
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}
 
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49 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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50 DENIED moderate 
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      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1961 …}
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
        +body: """
          This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
          \n
          GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
          \n
          If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
          """
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      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
      +lang: "en"
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      -id: 267445
      -bodyTs: "'best':6 'buy':7 'compani':4 'dollar':11 'inventori':13 'like':5 'million':9 'tvs':15 'wouldn':1"
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        date: 2023-12-31 15:51:09.0 +01:00
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: """
      They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
      \n
      They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
      """
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: "What did they infringe on?"
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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        +body: """
          This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
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          GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
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          If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
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      They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
      \n
      They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
      """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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          +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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            date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
        +body: """
          This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
          \n
          GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
          \n
          If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
          """
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      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
      +lang: "en"
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    +body: """
      They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
      \n
      They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
      """
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  +body: "What did they infringe on?"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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53 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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54 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4969
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      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1961 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1894 …}
    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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            +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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          }
          +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
          +body: """
            This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
            \n
            GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
            \n
            If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
            """
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            date: 2023-12-31 04:25:38.0 +01:00
          }
        }
        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
        +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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      }
      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: """
        They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
        \n
        They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
        """
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    +body: "What did they infringe on?"
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  +body: "Busybox"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
55 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4969
  +user: App\Entity\User {#4258 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2414
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1934 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:52:15.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-12-30 05:25:01.0 +01:00
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1961 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1894 …}
    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      date: 2023-12-31 02:22:45.0 +01:00
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            +image: null
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            +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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              date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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          }
          +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
          +body: """
            This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
            \n
            GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
            \n
            If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
            """
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        }
        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
        +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 267445
        -bodyTs: "'best':6 'buy':7 'compani':4 'dollar':11 'inventori':13 'like':5 'million':9 'tvs':15 'wouldn':1"
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          date: 2023-12-31 15:51:09.0 +01:00
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      }
      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: """
        They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
        \n
        They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
        """
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "What did they infringe on?"
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      "@library_napper@monyet.cc"
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}
 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
56 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4969
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1934 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1961 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1894 …}
    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      date: 2023-12-31 02:22:45.0 +01:00
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  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262}
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  +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4918
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#4595 …}
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    +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4799
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      +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262}
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      +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4594
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        +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262}
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          +user: App\Entity\User {#4258 …}
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          +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262}
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          +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094
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            +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2414}
            +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262}
            +image: null
            +parent: null
            +root: null
            +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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            ]
            +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4087 …}
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            -id: 266440
            -bodyTs: "'anyon':18 'aren':24 'complain':22 'complet':15 'free':16 'get':26 'licens':4 'mean':2 'paid':27 'right':8 'say':12 'use':20"
            +ranking: 0
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              date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
            }
          }
          +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
          +body: """
            This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
            \n
            GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
            \n
            If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
            """
          +lang: "en"
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            "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
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            date: 2023-12-31 04:25:38.0 +01:00
          }
        }
        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
        +body: "wouldn’t a company like best buy have millions of dollars of inventory of TVs?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1704034269 {#4592
          date: 2023-12-31 15:51:09.0 +01:00
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        +ip: null
        +tags: null
        +mentions: [
          "@actual_patience@programming.dev"
          "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
          "@mo_ztt@lemmy.world"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4596 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4598 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4600 …}
        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4602 …}
        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4604 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4606 …}
        -id: 267445
        -bodyTs: "'best':6 'buy':7 'compani':4 'dollar':11 'inventori':13 'like':5 'million':9 'tvs':15 'wouldn':1"
        +ranking: 0
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        +downVotes: 0
        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704034269 {#4593
          date: 2023-12-31 15:51:09.0 +01:00
        }
      }
      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: """
        They were selling TVs with GPL-licensed software inside without complying with the terms of the GPL. When challenged, their defense was some version of “But it’s completely free for anyone to use!”\n
        \n
        They didn’t have to give up every one of their TVs of any model, just the infringing models (the ones that used Busybox without complying with the GPL).
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 4
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        date: 2023-12-31 17:12:29.0 +01:00
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        "@actual_patience@programming.dev"
        "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
        "@mo_ztt@lemmy.world"
        "@library_napper@monyet.cc"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4800 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#4802 …}
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      -id: 267573
      -bodyTs: "'anyon':33 'busybox':59 'challeng':20 'complet':30 'compli':12,61 'defens':22 'didn':37 'everi':43 'free':31 'give':41 'gpl':7,18,64 'gpl-licens':6 'infring':53 'insid':10 'licens':8 'model':50,54 'one':44,56 'sell':3 'softwar':9 'term':15 'tvs':4,47 'use':35,58 'version':25 'without':11,60"
      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-12-31 17:12:29.0 +01:00
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "What did they infringe on?"
    +lang: "en"
    +isAdult: false
    +favouriteCount: 0
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      "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
      "@mo_ztt@lemmy.world"
      "@library_napper@monyet.cc"
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      date: 2023-12-31 18:31:30.0 +01:00
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  }
  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: "Busybox"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 3
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    date: 2023-12-31 18:32:48.0 +01:00
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    "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
    "@mo_ztt@lemmy.world"
    "@library_napper@monyet.cc"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1704043968 {#4973
    date: 2023-12-31 18:32:48.0 +01:00
  }
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
57 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
58 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4610
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#4595 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2414
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1934 …}
    +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262
      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
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59 DENIED edit 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
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60 DENIED moderate 
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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        \n
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        \n
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
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      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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  +body: "What were they not complying with?"
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Show voter details
61 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
62 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4815
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        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
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        \n
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        ===================\n
        \n
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      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "What were they not complying with?"
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2023-12-31 15:53:11.0 +01:00
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      date: 2023-12-31 15:53:11.0 +01:00
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    IANAL and I don’t have the actual court papers, but is seems to me they were violating [GPLv2 Section 6](https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/lgpl-2.0.html#SEC5).\n
    \n
    Essentially, what this section says is that if you distribute a chunk of software (in this case, the firmware embedded in a smart TV) that in its compiled form contains part or all of a software library covered by this license (in this case, [Busybox](https://www.busybox.net/), which is a bundle of common shell utilities you use every day in a Linux terminal, compacted into one binary to fit onto embedded systems), you have to do one of these four things:\n
    \n
    - Package the source code of the GPL’d library with the distribution itself. If your executable contains a version of it modified by you, those modifications must be in the source. In this case this would require putting the raw source code for Busybox on the TV itself in a place the user could access it, or perhaps bundling a flash drive with the source code on it with the TV.\n
    - Include a written offer to send the source to anyone who asks for it, at no cost (except for the cost of transfer itself if applicable, e.g. postage), and honor that offer for at least 3 years. I believe this is what most companies that use GPL’d code do.\n
    - If the distribution happens at a designated place, offer the source at that same place. This is mostly relevant to download pages, not physical products.\n
    - Verify that the customer already has a copy of the source distributed in advance. This is a specific edge case that makes no sense in this context.\n
    \n
    This lawsuit was brought about because the sellers of the TVs that contained Busybox were not doing any of the above four things, and those sellers ignored or ghosted plaintiff when plaintiff contacted them about it.
    """
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
63 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4815
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#4816 …}
  +entry: App\Entity\Entry {#2414
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1934 …}
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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        date: 2024-10-22 09:52:15.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-12-30 05:25:02.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-30 05:25:01.0 +01:00
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1961 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#1894 …}
    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      date: 2023-12-31 02:22:45.0 +01:00
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      +user: App\Entity\User {#4258 …}
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        +image: null
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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        -bodyTs: "'anyon':18 'aren':24 'complain':22 'complet':15 'free':16 'get':26 'licens':4 'mean':2 'paid':27 'right':8 'say':12 'use':20"
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          date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "What were they not complying with?"
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2023-12-31 15:53:11.0 +01:00
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    IANAL and I don’t have the actual court papers, but is seems to me they were violating [GPLv2 Section 6](https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/lgpl-2.0.html#SEC5).\n
    \n
    Essentially, what this section says is that if you distribute a chunk of software (in this case, the firmware embedded in a smart TV) that in its compiled form contains part or all of a software library covered by this license (in this case, [Busybox](https://www.busybox.net/), which is a bundle of common shell utilities you use every day in a Linux terminal, compacted into one binary to fit onto embedded systems), you have to do one of these four things:\n
    \n
    - Package the source code of the GPL’d library with the distribution itself. If your executable contains a version of it modified by you, those modifications must be in the source. In this case this would require putting the raw source code for Busybox on the TV itself in a place the user could access it, or perhaps bundling a flash drive with the source code on it with the TV.\n
    - Include a written offer to send the source to anyone who asks for it, at no cost (except for the cost of transfer itself if applicable, e.g. postage), and honor that offer for at least 3 years. I believe this is what most companies that use GPL’d code do.\n
    - If the distribution happens at a designated place, offer the source at that same place. This is mostly relevant to download pages, not physical products.\n
    - Verify that the customer already has a copy of the source distributed in advance. This is a specific edge case that makes no sense in this context.\n
    \n
    This lawsuit was brought about because the sellers of the TVs that contained Busybox were not doing any of the above four things, and those sellers ignored or ghosted plaintiff when plaintiff contacted them about it.
    """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
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64 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4815
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    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#1934 …}
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1961 …}
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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  +magazine: App\Entity\Magazine {#262}
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  +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4610
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#4595 …}
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        +image: null
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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        "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "What were they not complying with?"
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2023-12-31 15:53:11.0 +01:00
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      "@actual_patience@programming.dev"
      "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
      "@mo_ztt@lemmy.world"
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    -bodyTs: "'compli':5"
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      date: 2023-12-31 15:53:11.0 +01:00
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  }
  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    IANAL and I don’t have the actual court papers, but is seems to me they were violating [GPLv2 Section 6](https://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/lgpl-2.0.html#SEC5).\n
    \n
    Essentially, what this section says is that if you distribute a chunk of software (in this case, the firmware embedded in a smart TV) that in its compiled form contains part or all of a software library covered by this license (in this case, [Busybox](https://www.busybox.net/), which is a bundle of common shell utilities you use every day in a Linux terminal, compacted into one binary to fit onto embedded systems), you have to do one of these four things:\n
    \n
    - Package the source code of the GPL’d library with the distribution itself. If your executable contains a version of it modified by you, those modifications must be in the source. In this case this would require putting the raw source code for Busybox on the TV itself in a place the user could access it, or perhaps bundling a flash drive with the source code on it with the TV.\n
    - Include a written offer to send the source to anyone who asks for it, at no cost (except for the cost of transfer itself if applicable, e.g. postage), and honor that offer for at least 3 years. I believe this is what most companies that use GPL’d code do.\n
    - If the distribution happens at a designated place, offer the source at that same place. This is mostly relevant to download pages, not physical products.\n
    - Verify that the customer already has a copy of the source distributed in advance. This is a specific edge case that makes no sense in this context.\n
    \n
    This lawsuit was brought about because the sellers of the TVs that contained Busybox were not doing any of the above four things, and those sellers ignored or ghosted plaintiff when plaintiff contacted them about it.
    """
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    date: 2023-12-31 19:51:54.0 +01:00
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}
 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
65 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
66 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4625
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        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
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        \n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
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      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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  +body: "That’s all well and good. But it still doesn’t change the whole not getting paid issue. Unless they violated the license lol"
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Show voter details
67 DENIED edit 
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        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
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      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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68 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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      +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
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      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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Show voter details
69 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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Show voter details
70 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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          date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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    +body: "That’s all well and good. But it still doesn’t change the whole not getting paid issue. Unless they violated the license lol"
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    Violating the (spirit of) the license (without violating the letter, because of loopholes in the license) is exactly what Perens is talking about.\n
    \n
    He’s not “complaining he isn’t getting paid.” I think it’s pretty rare that the people working on open source software are actually hurting for money or anything. He’s complaining that the actual practice of how the software is being used, RHEL and Android on phones and etc, isn’t doing well at reflecting the vision of the computing world the GPL was supposed to create. Then, as one possible solution, he’s proposing to kill two birds with one stone with a new license where the companies that are skirting the license right now can have to fund the development of particular types of open source software that need to get done anyway but is lacking right now (because of lack of profit motive).\n
    \n
    You might or might not agree with his thesis; as much as I think it’s interesting and insightful I have some reservations about it. I just thought you were misunderstanding his whole argument as being in terms of money, that’s all.
    """
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71 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4862
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      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
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      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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    +body: "That’s all well and good. But it still doesn’t change the whole not getting paid issue. Unless they violated the license lol"
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    Violating the (spirit of) the license (without violating the letter, because of loopholes in the license) is exactly what Perens is talking about.\n
    \n
    He’s not “complaining he isn’t getting paid.” I think it’s pretty rare that the people working on open source software are actually hurting for money or anything. He’s complaining that the actual practice of how the software is being used, RHEL and Android on phones and etc, isn’t doing well at reflecting the vision of the computing world the GPL was supposed to create. Then, as one possible solution, he’s proposing to kill two birds with one stone with a new license where the companies that are skirting the license right now can have to fund the development of particular types of open source software that need to get done anyway but is lacking right now (because of lack of profit motive).\n
    \n
    You might or might not agree with his thesis; as much as I think it’s interesting and insightful I have some reservations about it. I just thought you were misunderstanding his whole argument as being in terms of money, that’s all.
    """
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72 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4862
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "That’s all well and good. But it still doesn’t change the whole not getting paid issue. Unless they violated the license lol"
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: """
    Violating the (spirit of) the license (without violating the letter, because of loopholes in the license) is exactly what Perens is talking about.\n
    \n
    He’s not “complaining he isn’t getting paid.” I think it’s pretty rare that the people working on open source software are actually hurting for money or anything. He’s complaining that the actual practice of how the software is being used, RHEL and Android on phones and etc, isn’t doing well at reflecting the vision of the computing world the GPL was supposed to create. Then, as one possible solution, he’s proposing to kill two birds with one stone with a new license where the companies that are skirting the license right now can have to fund the development of particular types of open source software that need to get done anyway but is lacking right now (because of lack of profit motive).\n
    \n
    You might or might not agree with his thesis; as much as I think it’s interesting and insightful I have some reservations about it. I just thought you were misunderstanding his whole argument as being in terms of money, that’s all.
    """
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Show voter details
73 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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Show voter details
74 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4640
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      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
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        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
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      \n
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      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
      GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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  +body: "GPL isn’t the only open source license. This comment is beyond bizarre because it seems to imply that all open source software is GPL? And of course when software is licensed as GPL, that license can be enforced when someone breaks it (like your example). The original comment never mentioned GPL, it was about when something was licensed ss free. So when you give an example where it wasn’t licensed as such, what was the point?"
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
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      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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  +body: "GPL isn’t the only open source license. This comment is beyond bizarre because it seems to imply that all open source software is GPL? And of course when software is licensed as GPL, that license can be enforced when someone breaks it (like your example). The original comment never mentioned GPL, it was about when something was licensed ss free. So when you give an example where it wasn’t licensed as such, what was the point?"
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76 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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    +body: """
      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
      GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
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      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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  +body: "GPL isn’t the only open source license. This comment is beyond bizarre because it seems to imply that all open source software is GPL? And of course when software is licensed as GPL, that license can be enforced when someone breaks it (like your example). The original comment never mentioned GPL, it was about when something was licensed ss free. So when you give an example where it wasn’t licensed as such, what was the point?"
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77 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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78 DENIED moderate 
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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          date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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    +body: "GPL isn’t the only open source license. This comment is beyond bizarre because it seems to imply that all open source software is GPL? And of course when software is licensed as GPL, that license can be enforced when someone breaks it (like your example). The original comment never mentioned GPL, it was about when something was licensed ss free. So when you give an example where it wasn’t licensed as such, what was the point?"
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  +body: "The entire linked article is talking about “open source” in terms of the GPL specifically."
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      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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        "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
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    +body: "GPL isn’t the only open source license. This comment is beyond bizarre because it seems to imply that all open source software is GPL? And of course when software is licensed as GPL, that license can be enforced when someone breaks it (like your example). The original comment never mentioned GPL, it was about when something was licensed ss free. So when you give an example where it wasn’t licensed as such, what was the point?"
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: "The entire linked article is talking about “open source” in terms of the GPL specifically."
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#4847
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
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      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      What are your thoughts on it?
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        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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    +body: "GPL isn’t the only open source license. This comment is beyond bizarre because it seems to imply that all open source software is GPL? And of course when software is licensed as GPL, that license can be enforced when someone breaks it (like your example). The original comment never mentioned GPL, it was about when something was licensed ss free. So when you give an example where it wasn’t licensed as such, what was the point?"
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
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        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
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    +body: """
      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
      GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
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        \n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
      GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
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        \n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        \n
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      date: 2023-12-31 02:22:45.0 +01:00
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  +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4525
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      +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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      -bodyTs: "'anyon':18 'aren':24 'complain':22 'complet':15 'free':16 'get':26 'licens':4 'mean':2 'paid':27 'right':8 'say':12 'use':20"
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        date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: """
      This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
      \n
      GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
      \n
      If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
      """
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  +body: "From the link, Best Buy paid $90,000. That’s awesome! Wouldn’t there be a ton of opportunity in suing these big, careless companies that are violating open source? Seems like this would be “the solution”"
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}
 
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      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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        "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "From the link, Best Buy paid $90,000. That’s awesome! Wouldn’t there be a ton of opportunity in suing these big, careless companies that are violating open source? Seems like this would be “the solution”"
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: "I think mostly they prefer for people to just fix their delivery to comply with the license, as opposed to causing antagonism towards the community by going straight to a lawsuit. But yes, there are definitely teeth to it if some company for whatever reason doesn’t want to fix their infringement."
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
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    +body: "From the link, Best Buy paid $90,000. That’s awesome! Wouldn’t there be a ton of opportunity in suing these big, careless companies that are violating open source? Seems like this would be “the solution”"
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  +body: "I think mostly they prefer for people to just fix their delivery to comply with the license, as opposed to causing antagonism towards the community by going straight to a lawsuit. But yes, there are definitely teeth to it if some company for whatever reason doesn’t want to fix their infringement."
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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        +image: null
        +parent: null
        +root: null
        +body: "I mean just license it as such right? You can’t say it’s completely free for anyone to use then complain you aren’t getting paid."
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          date: 2023-12-31 03:34:41.0 +01:00
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      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
      +body: """
        This is a common misconception. A couple times, it’s even [gone to court](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases). Both Cisco and Best Buy had to pay nontrivial amounts of money, and in the case of Best Buy, it hilariously had to *give to the plaintiffs its inventory of TVs* which contained software copyrighted and GPL-licensed by the plaintiffs.\n
        \n
        GPL licensed does not in any world mean “completely free for anyone to use”. For end-users, it does. For companies that want to resell the GPL-licensed software, it means, you can do it for free *if you comply with the terms of the license*, and if you don’t, then you can’t. There’s not a monetary exchange, but there are licensing terms you need to comply with which were apparently important enough to the people that wrote the software for them to apply that particular license instead of some other one.\n
        \n
        If you disagree, that’s completely fine, but that doesn’t mean you can all of a sudden resell their software and use their work for free, even if there are other people (in compliance with the license) who can.
        """
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        "@Lmaydev@programming.dev"
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
    +body: "From the link, Best Buy paid $90,000. That’s awesome! Wouldn’t there be a ton of opportunity in suing these big, careless companies that are violating open source? Seems like this would be “the solution”"
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4094}
  +body: "I think mostly they prefer for people to just fix their delivery to comply with the license, as opposed to causing antagonism towards the community by going straight to a lawsuit. But yes, there are definitely teeth to it if some company for whatever reason doesn’t want to fix their infringement."
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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  +image: null
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  +body: """
    So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
    \n
    It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
    \n
    Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
    \n
    Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
    \n
    If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
    \n
    All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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    So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
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      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      """
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      So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
      \n
      It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
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      Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
      \n
      Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
      \n
      If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
      \n
      All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
      """
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    Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
    \n
    I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
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    I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
    \n
    (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
    """
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
      \n
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      Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
      \n
      Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
      \n
      If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
      \n
      All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
      """
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  +body: """
    Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
    \n
    I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
    \n
    I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
    \n
    (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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    +body: """
      So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
      \n
      It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
      \n
      Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
      \n
      Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
      \n
      If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
      \n
      All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
      """
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  +body: """
    Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
    \n
    I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
    \n
    I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
    \n
    (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
    """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
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        So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
        \n
        It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
        \n
        Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
        \n
        Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
        \n
        If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
        \n
        All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
        """
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    +body: """
      Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
      \n
      I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
      \n
      I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
      \n
      (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
      """
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  +body: """
    I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
    \n
    But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
    \n
    At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
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        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      What are your thoughts on it?
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        So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
        \n
        It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
        \n
        Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
        \n
        Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
        \n
        If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
        \n
        All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
        """
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    +body: """
      Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
      \n
      I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
      \n
      I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
      \n
      (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
      """
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  +body: """
    I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
    \n
    But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
    \n
    At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
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        \n
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        \n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
        \n
        It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
        \n
        Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
        \n
        Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
        \n
        If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
        \n
        All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
        """
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    +body: """
      Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
      \n
      I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
      \n
      I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
      \n
      (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
      """
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    I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
    \n
    But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
    \n
    At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
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        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
          \n
          It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
          \n
          Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
          \n
          Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
          \n
          If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
          \n
          All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
          """
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      +body: """
        Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
        \n
        I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
        \n
        I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
        \n
        (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
        """
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    +body: """
      I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
      \n
      But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
      \n
      At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
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    On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
    \n
    [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
          \n
          It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
          \n
          Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
          \n
          Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
          \n
          If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
          \n
          All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
          """
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      +body: """
        Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
        \n
        I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
        \n
        I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
        \n
        (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
        """
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    +body: """
      I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
      \n
      But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
      \n
      At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
      """
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  +body: """
    On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
    \n
    [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
    """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      What are your thoughts on it?
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          So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
          \n
          It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
          \n
          Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
          \n
          Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
          \n
          If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
          \n
          All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
          """
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        Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
        \n
        I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
        \n
        I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
        \n
        (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
        """
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      I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
      \n
      But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
      \n
      At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
      """
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  +body: """
    On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
    \n
    [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          +body: """
            So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
            \n
            It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
            \n
            Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
            \n
            Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
            \n
            If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
            \n
            All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
            """
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        +body: """
          Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
          \n
          I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
          \n
          I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
          \n
          (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
          """
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      +body: """
        I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
        \n
        But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
        \n
        At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
        """
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    +body: """
      On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
      \n
      [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
      """
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  +body: """
    [This talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B872e4ref40&t=266) says “[Free Software] is generally everywhere and a lot of these smart devices that you buy off the shelf most likely is running some sort of free software but most people would never know that. Generally it’s not indicated anywhere that it’s running any type of free software. There’s no written offer for sources which is sadly the most popular… the written offer for source code seems to be the most popular way that they go about distributing the software but generally they don’t follow up with it or what they distribute is not really that.”\n
    \n
    [This article](https://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2009/11/08/gpl-enforcement.html) mentions that “I’ve been on a mission in recent months to establish just how common and mundane GPL violations are. Since 21 August 2009, I’ve been finding one new GPL violating company per day (on average) and I am still on target to find one per day for 365 days straight.”\n
    \n
    I’ve got a robot vacuum cleaner that runs the Linux kernel and Busybox but came with no written offer for source code. (Per the article above, I’ll refrain from naming and shaming the company.) I might go look at the documents that came with my smart phone a little later and see if I can find any written offers for source.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        \n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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            So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
            \n
            It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
            \n
            Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
            \n
            Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
            \n
            If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
            \n
            All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
            """
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        +body: """
          Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
          \n
          I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
          \n
          I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
          \n
          (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
          """
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      +body: """
        I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
        \n
        But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
        \n
        At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
        """
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    +body: """
      On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
      \n
      [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
      """
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4171}
  +body: """
    [This talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B872e4ref40&t=266) says “[Free Software] is generally everywhere and a lot of these smart devices that you buy off the shelf most likely is running some sort of free software but most people would never know that. Generally it’s not indicated anywhere that it’s running any type of free software. There’s no written offer for sources which is sadly the most popular… the written offer for source code seems to be the most popular way that they go about distributing the software but generally they don’t follow up with it or what they distribute is not really that.”\n
    \n
    [This article](https://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2009/11/08/gpl-enforcement.html) mentions that “I’ve been on a mission in recent months to establish just how common and mundane GPL violations are. Since 21 August 2009, I’ve been finding one new GPL violating company per day (on average) and I am still on target to find one per day for 365 days straight.”\n
    \n
    I’ve got a robot vacuum cleaner that runs the Linux kernel and Busybox but came with no written offer for source code. (Per the article above, I’ll refrain from naming and shaming the company.) I might go look at the documents that came with my smart phone a little later and see if I can find any written offers for source.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
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        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
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        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          +body: """
            So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
            \n
            It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
            \n
            Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
            \n
            Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
            \n
            If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
            \n
            All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
            """
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        +body: """
          Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
          \n
          I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
          \n
          I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
          \n
          (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
          """
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      +body: """
        I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
        \n
        But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
        \n
        At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
        """
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    +body: """
      On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
      \n
      [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
      """
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  +body: """
    [This talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B872e4ref40&t=266) says “[Free Software] is generally everywhere and a lot of these smart devices that you buy off the shelf most likely is running some sort of free software but most people would never know that. Generally it’s not indicated anywhere that it’s running any type of free software. There’s no written offer for sources which is sadly the most popular… the written offer for source code seems to be the most popular way that they go about distributing the software but generally they don’t follow up with it or what they distribute is not really that.”\n
    \n
    [This article](https://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2009/11/08/gpl-enforcement.html) mentions that “I’ve been on a mission in recent months to establish just how common and mundane GPL violations are. Since 21 August 2009, I’ve been finding one new GPL violating company per day (on average) and I am still on target to find one per day for 365 days straight.”\n
    \n
    I’ve got a robot vacuum cleaner that runs the Linux kernel and Busybox but came with no written offer for source code. (Per the article above, I’ll refrain from naming and shaming the company.) I might go look at the documents that came with my smart phone a little later and see if I can find any written offers for source.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
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        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
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        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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            +body: """
              So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
              \n
              It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
              \n
              Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
              \n
              Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
              \n
              If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
              \n
              All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
              """
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          +body: """
            Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
            \n
            I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
            \n
            I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
            \n
            (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
            """
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        +body: """
          I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
          \n
          But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
          \n
          At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
          """
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      +body: """
        On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
        \n
        [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
        """
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    +body: """
      [This talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B872e4ref40&t=266) says “[Free Software] is generally everywhere and a lot of these smart devices that you buy off the shelf most likely is running some sort of free software but most people would never know that. Generally it’s not indicated anywhere that it’s running any type of free software. There’s no written offer for sources which is sadly the most popular… the written offer for source code seems to be the most popular way that they go about distributing the software but generally they don’t follow up with it or what they distribute is not really that.”\n
      \n
      [This article](https://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2009/11/08/gpl-enforcement.html) mentions that “I’ve been on a mission in recent months to establish just how common and mundane GPL violations are. Since 21 August 2009, I’ve been finding one new GPL violating company per day (on average) and I am still on target to find one per day for 365 days straight.”\n
      \n
      I’ve got a robot vacuum cleaner that runs the Linux kernel and Busybox but came with no written offer for source code. (Per the article above, I’ll refrain from naming and shaming the company.) I might go look at the documents that came with my smart phone a little later and see if I can find any written offers for source.
      """
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    Hm, interesting stuff. Yeah, maybe it’s more common than I was aware of – that’s still a little weird to me, because there are entities like FSF that are so happy to go to bat for people legally if they do want to make it a legal issue.\n
    \n
    Maybe it’s made a little more complex because a lot of authors *don’t* want to “punish” the company involved so much as they just want people to comply with the terms of the license, and a lot of companies aren’t violating the license out of maliciousness but just from lack of knowledge or it just being more difficult than it sounds to keep your ducks in a row with source availability.\n
    \n
    FWIW, I know Android phones generally have something buried in the settings where it explains what the licensing is for the code on the phone and with a theoretical offer for the source if you want it. That seems like what the Youtube talk is about; just creating the technical tools so that people can be in compliance without it being a pain in the butt that costs your engineers time and costs you money to do which companies are going to be tempted to avoid. But yeah, maybe people are getting sloppy about it in a way I wasn’t aware of; that’s sad to me if so.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
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        \n
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        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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              So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
              \n
              It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
              \n
              Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
              \n
              Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
              \n
              If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
              \n
              All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
              """
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          +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4171}
          +body: """
            Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
            \n
            I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
            \n
            I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
            \n
            (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
            """
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        +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4171}
        +body: """
          I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
          \n
          But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
          \n
          At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
          """
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      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4171}
      +body: """
        On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
        \n
        [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
        """
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        date: 2024-03-09 01:50:03.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-31 17:40:23.0 +01:00
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4171}
    +body: """
      [This talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B872e4ref40&t=266) says “[Free Software] is generally everywhere and a lot of these smart devices that you buy off the shelf most likely is running some sort of free software but most people would never know that. Generally it’s not indicated anywhere that it’s running any type of free software. There’s no written offer for sources which is sadly the most popular… the written offer for source code seems to be the most popular way that they go about distributing the software but generally they don’t follow up with it or what they distribute is not really that.”\n
      \n
      [This article](https://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2009/11/08/gpl-enforcement.html) mentions that “I’ve been on a mission in recent months to establish just how common and mundane GPL violations are. Since 21 August 2009, I’ve been finding one new GPL violating company per day (on average) and I am still on target to find one per day for 365 days straight.”\n
      \n
      I’ve got a robot vacuum cleaner that runs the Linux kernel and Busybox but came with no written offer for source code. (Per the article above, I’ll refrain from naming and shaming the company.) I might go look at the documents that came with my smart phone a little later and see if I can find any written offers for source.
      """
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4171}
  +body: """
    Hm, interesting stuff. Yeah, maybe it’s more common than I was aware of – that’s still a little weird to me, because there are entities like FSF that are so happy to go to bat for people legally if they do want to make it a legal issue.\n
    \n
    Maybe it’s made a little more complex because a lot of authors *don’t* want to “punish” the company involved so much as they just want people to comply with the terms of the license, and a lot of companies aren’t violating the license out of maliciousness but just from lack of knowledge or it just being more difficult than it sounds to keep your ducks in a row with source availability.\n
    \n
    FWIW, I know Android phones generally have something buried in the settings where it explains what the licensing is for the code on the phone and with a theoretical offer for the source if you want it. That seems like what the Youtube talk is about; just creating the technical tools so that people can be in compliance without it being a pain in the butt that costs your engineers time and costs you money to do which companies are going to be tempted to avoid. But yeah, maybe people are getting sloppy about it in a way I wasn’t aware of; that’s sad to me if so.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
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        \n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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              So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
              \n
              It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
              \n
              Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
              \n
              Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
              \n
              If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
              \n
              All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
              """
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            Generally speaking I agree; I like how Perens is thinking about it.\n
            \n
            I do think it’s pretty well established that the GPL “has teeth” though. [The FSF has a list](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases) of enforcement cases against fairly large defendants; it looks like their record is 2 for 2 in the US. I think it rarely comes up, just because complying with the terms of the license is so no-brainer-ly easier than trying to make the legal argument that you can use someone else’s stuff for free while thumbing your nose at the terms and conditions they want you to abide by in order to do that.\n
            \n
            I think most of the “big company ignores the GPL” things you hear about are either things like RHEL, where they’re carefully skirting the line in a clearly bad-faith way that has some decent chance in court for some particular reason, or else someone breaking the GPL and then their legal department looking at it for 2 seconds and telling them to stop doing that. The cases where someone with anything to lose actually doubles down and says “fuck you” are rare I think for pretty obvious reasons.\n
            \n
            (Also, I just learned this today: When Best Buy did this in 2009, the judge eventually *made them give the plaintiffs the TVs* as part of the damages when it was all done. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all week.)
            """
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          I need to look into the Best Buy case you’re referencing.\n
          \n
          But I doubt think you’re right that violation of the terms of the GPL is such a rare thing. Aside from people who just don’t use technology much at all, I’d imagine most folks have multiple devices sold in ways that violated the GPL and with no plans for GPL compliance (and no knowledge that they needed a plan for GPL compliance.)\n
          \n
          At least that’s how most of the content on [the Software Freedom Conservancy’s YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUEeuNvX2UyTTyTYXR9dm_A) makes it sound.
          """
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        On what is your doubt based? Like what devices do you have that you think are violators? Like I say I imagine that careless violations aren’t, like, un-heard of, but correcting them once things are explained is *almost* always the response. I mean, correcting the violation is usually free and easy. I’m not real familiar with the SFC, but I know they’re actively suing Visio right now, and I know the FSF is happy to bring cases to trial if it comes to that (they kind of like doing it it seems like).\n
        \n
        [Link to the Best Buy case](https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Busybox_vs_Best_Buy_.2B-_13_other_companies_.282009-2012.29)
        """
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      [This talk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B872e4ref40&t=266) says “[Free Software] is generally everywhere and a lot of these smart devices that you buy off the shelf most likely is running some sort of free software but most people would never know that. Generally it’s not indicated anywhere that it’s running any type of free software. There’s no written offer for sources which is sadly the most popular… the written offer for source code seems to be the most popular way that they go about distributing the software but generally they don’t follow up with it or what they distribute is not really that.”\n
      \n
      [This article](https://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2009/11/08/gpl-enforcement.html) mentions that “I’ve been on a mission in recent months to establish just how common and mundane GPL violations are. Since 21 August 2009, I’ve been finding one new GPL violating company per day (on average) and I am still on target to find one per day for 365 days straight.”\n
      \n
      I’ve got a robot vacuum cleaner that runs the Linux kernel and Busybox but came with no written offer for source code. (Per the article above, I’ll refrain from naming and shaming the company.) I might go look at the documents that came with my smart phone a little later and see if I can find any written offers for source.
      """
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    Hm, interesting stuff. Yeah, maybe it’s more common than I was aware of – that’s still a little weird to me, because there are entities like FSF that are so happy to go to bat for people legally if they do want to make it a legal issue.\n
    \n
    Maybe it’s made a little more complex because a lot of authors *don’t* want to “punish” the company involved so much as they just want people to comply with the terms of the license, and a lot of companies aren’t violating the license out of maliciousness but just from lack of knowledge or it just being more difficult than it sounds to keep your ducks in a row with source availability.\n
    \n
    FWIW, I know Android phones generally have something buried in the settings where it explains what the licensing is for the code on the phone and with a theoretical offer for the source if you want it. That seems like what the Youtube talk is about; just creating the technical tools so that people can be in compliance without it being a pain in the butt that costs your engineers time and costs you money to do which companies are going to be tempted to avoid. But yeah, maybe people are getting sloppy about it in a way I wasn’t aware of; that’s sad to me if so.
    """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      What are your thoughts on it?
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      So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
      \n
      It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
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      \n
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      If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
      \n
      All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
      """
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    > If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
    \n
    It’s more that they avoid the spirit of the licensing, not the terms (except Red Hat of course).\n
    \n
    I suppose you can split this into two separate arguments:\n
    \n
    - Swap from licenses to more enforceable contracts\n
    - Have companies pay open source devs
    """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
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      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
      \n
      It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
      \n
      Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
      \n
      Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
      \n
      If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
      \n
      All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
      """
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    > If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
    \n
    It’s more that they avoid the spirit of the licensing, not the terms (except Red Hat of course).\n
    \n
    I suppose you can split this into two separate arguments:\n
    \n
    - Swap from licenses to more enforceable contracts\n
    - Have companies pay open source devs
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
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        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
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        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
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        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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    +body: """
      So, Open Source was already kindof the capitalistic fork of the Free Software movement. And it feels like Parens’ vision of Post-Open Source is about how to marry it more to “the market.” If it’s not clear from what I’ve said already, I’m not a fan of that specific aspect of it.\n
      \n
      It *is* a problem that big companies reguarly violate the terms of the GPL. I hope good things come out of SFC v. Visio that give the GPL’s requirements of distributing source code with compiled code more teeth, but we’ll have to see. I do think the courts agreeing to interpret the GPL (at least in some cases) as a contract rather than as a license is a good thing. It was a gutsy move on the SFC’s legal department’s part, but the case shows more promise now that they’d made it than it did previously. Perhaps a GPLv4 that better deals with being interpreted as a contract is in order.\n
      \n
      Though, I worry that what Parens has in mind for new licenses doesn’t address what I’d want to see from the Open Source movement and will ultimately move (Post-)Open Source in the wrong direction.\n
      \n
      Specifically what I want from FOSS licenses is to be able to (and to have assurance that others have the option to) write and distribute software with assurances that no one’s going to use it to restrict users’ rights down the line. The GPL has historically been imperfect at that. The AGPL is better. But the GPL has always been explicit about requiring companies to distribute source code with binaries. What we need is that but with teeth in the form of some combination of court precedent and more effective legalese.\n
      \n
      If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
      \n
      All that said, I’m glad to hear discussion about the future of FOSS. I’m worried about where FOSS is now and where it’s going and am glad to see more strategic thinking.
      """
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      date: 2023-12-31 03:11:47.0 +01:00
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4171}
  +body: """
    > If current licenses have the problem that big companies just ignore the terms set out in the license, I wouldn’t imagine making a new sort of license with different terms like “big companies have to pay to get the benefit of using Pots-Open Source software” is really going to work.\n
    \n
    It’s more that they avoid the spirit of the licensing, not the terms (except Red Hat of course).\n
    \n
    I suppose you can split this into two separate arguments:\n
    \n
    - Swap from licenses to more enforceable contracts\n
    - Have companies pay open source devs
    """
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118 DENIED moderate 
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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    > BSD which iOS is based on\n
    \n
    Note that Apple’s OSs have very little to do with BSDs unless you deem coreutils the only criteria for an OS’ quality.
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    > BSD which iOS is based on\n
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        Useful Links\n
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        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        \n
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        ===================\n
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    > BSD which iOS is based on\n
    \n
    Note that Apple’s OSs have very little to do with BSDs unless you deem coreutils the only criteria for an OS’ quality.
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      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
        \n
        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
        \n
        From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
        \n
        RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
        """
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      > BSD which iOS is based on\n
      \n
      Note that Apple’s OSs have very little to do with BSDs unless you deem coreutils the only criteria for an OS’ quality.
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    Yeah, 100%. At this point the resources invested in MacOS / iOS have probably exceeded even the decades of work they were able to leverage by starting with FreeBSD / NeXT / Mach / whatever else.\n
    \n
    (Edit: Actually, not *100%* true. Macs are still very BSD-like under the hood; I actually really like development on Macs because I can basically treat them as BSD systems with [unusual package management](https://brew.sh/) and a fancy GUI. For that reason they’re far preferable for me over Windows or pre-OSX Macs. But yes, your point is well taken that iOS development at this point has far eclipsed anything they started out from in terms of LOC and time spent.)
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        Useful Links\n
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        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
        \n
        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
        \n
        From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
        \n
        RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
        """
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      > BSD which iOS is based on\n
      \n
      Note that Apple’s OSs have very little to do with BSDs unless you deem coreutils the only criteria for an OS’ quality.
      """
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    Yeah, 100%. At this point the resources invested in MacOS / iOS have probably exceeded even the decades of work they were able to leverage by starting with FreeBSD / NeXT / Mach / whatever else.\n
    \n
    (Edit: Actually, not *100%* true. Macs are still very BSD-like under the hood; I actually really like development on Macs because I can basically treat them as BSD systems with [unusual package management](https://brew.sh/) and a fancy GUI. For that reason they’re far preferable for me over Windows or pre-OSX Macs. But yes, your point is well taken that iOS development at this point has far eclipsed anything they started out from in terms of LOC and time spent.)
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
        \n
        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
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        From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
        \n
        RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
        """
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      > BSD which iOS is based on\n
      \n
      Note that Apple’s OSs have very little to do with BSDs unless you deem coreutils the only criteria for an OS’ quality.
      """
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  +body: """
    Yeah, 100%. At this point the resources invested in MacOS / iOS have probably exceeded even the decades of work they were able to leverage by starting with FreeBSD / NeXT / Mach / whatever else.\n
    \n
    (Edit: Actually, not *100%* true. Macs are still very BSD-like under the hood; I actually really like development on Macs because I can basically treat them as BSD systems with [unusual package management](https://brew.sh/) and a fancy GUI. For that reason they’re far preferable for me over Windows or pre-OSX Macs. But yes, your point is well taken that iOS development at this point has far eclipsed anything they started out from in terms of LOC and time spent.)
    """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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    +body: """
      I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
      \n
      > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
      \n
      From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
      \n
      RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
      """
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  +body: """
    > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
    \n
    Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
    \n
    The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
    \n
    There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
    """
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        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
      \n
      > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
      \n
      From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
      \n
      RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
      """
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  +body: """
    > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
    \n
    Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
    \n
    The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
    \n
    There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
    """
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
      \n
      > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
      \n
      From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
      \n
      RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
      """
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  +body: """
    > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
    \n
    Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
    \n
    Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
    \n
    The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
    \n
    There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
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        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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        \n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      +body: """
        I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
        \n
        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
        \n
        From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
        \n
        RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
        """
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      > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
      \n
      Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
      \n
      Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
      \n
      The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
      \n
      There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
      """
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  +body: """
    > Can you elaborate on this?\n
    \n
    I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
    \n
    > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
    \n
    Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
    \n
    I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
    \n
    In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
    \n
    (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      +body: """
        I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
        \n
        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
        \n
        From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
        \n
        RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
        """
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      > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
      \n
      Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
      \n
      Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
      \n
      The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
      \n
      There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
      """
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  +body: """
    > Can you elaborate on this?\n
    \n
    I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
    \n
    > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
    \n
    Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
    \n
    I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
    \n
    In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
    \n
    (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
    """
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
        \n
        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
        \n
        From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
        \n
        RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
        """
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      > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
      \n
      Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
      \n
      Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
      \n
      The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
      \n
      There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
      """
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  +body: """
    > Can you elaborate on this?\n
    \n
    I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
    \n
    > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
    \n
    Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
    \n
    I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
    \n
    In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
    \n
    (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
    """
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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        > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
        \n
        Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
        \n
        The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
        \n
        There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
        """
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    +body: """
      > Can you elaborate on this?\n
      \n
      I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
      \n
      > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
      \n
      Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
      \n
      I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
      \n
      In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
      \n
      (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
      """
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  +body: """
    Ok, yeah. I think I misinterpreted the bit of your post that I quoted.\n
    \n
    About Google, it’s not necessarily Google who manufactured your phone. It is if you have a Pixel, but it might be Samsung or LG or ZTE phone or whatever. And it’s not necessarily them who sold you your phone. It might be T-Mobile or Mint Mobile or AT&T. Whoever conveyed GPL’d code in object form (as the GPL puts it “embodied in, a physical product”) has the responsibility of ensuring you can get from them the source of all GPL’d code on your device. Including all derivative works and modifications.\n
    \n
    Derivative works includes kernel modules. Which includes device drivers for, say, 5G modems and fingerprint readers. And those are the kinds of things (aside maybe from tivoization) that are the biggest hurtles for making a fully free firmware for a given device.\n
    \n
    So, yes, I mean the kernel *and derivative works* of the kernel like drivers. And of course anything else on the device that is GPL’d.\n
    \n
    Plus, the GPL also includes what is necessary to compile and install GPL’d code as part of the source code. Some of the implications are pretty cool. See [this article](https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-the-gpl-right-to-install/) by Bradley Kuhn of the Software Freedom Conservancy for more info.\n
    \n
    I think if companies *did* comply with all this, FOSS *could* benefit ordinary users who don’t even know what FOSS is a lot more than it does now.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
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        \n
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        \n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: """
          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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      +body: """
        > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
        \n
        Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
        \n
        The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
        \n
        There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
        """
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    +body: """
      > Can you elaborate on this?\n
      \n
      I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
      \n
      > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
      \n
      Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
      \n
      I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
      \n
      In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
      \n
      (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
      """
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  +body: """
    Ok, yeah. I think I misinterpreted the bit of your post that I quoted.\n
    \n
    About Google, it’s not necessarily Google who manufactured your phone. It is if you have a Pixel, but it might be Samsung or LG or ZTE phone or whatever. And it’s not necessarily them who sold you your phone. It might be T-Mobile or Mint Mobile or AT&T. Whoever conveyed GPL’d code in object form (as the GPL puts it “embodied in, a physical product”) has the responsibility of ensuring you can get from them the source of all GPL’d code on your device. Including all derivative works and modifications.\n
    \n
    Derivative works includes kernel modules. Which includes device drivers for, say, 5G modems and fingerprint readers. And those are the kinds of things (aside maybe from tivoization) that are the biggest hurtles for making a fully free firmware for a given device.\n
    \n
    So, yes, I mean the kernel *and derivative works* of the kernel like drivers. And of course anything else on the device that is GPL’d.\n
    \n
    Plus, the GPL also includes what is necessary to compile and install GPL’d code as part of the source code. Some of the implications are pretty cool. See [this article](https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-the-gpl-right-to-install/) by Bradley Kuhn of the Software Freedom Conservancy for more info.\n
    \n
    I think if companies *did* comply with all this, FOSS *could* benefit ordinary users who don’t even know what FOSS is a lot more than it does now.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: """
          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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      +body: """
        > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
        \n
        Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
        \n
        The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
        \n
        There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
        """
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    +body: """
      > Can you elaborate on this?\n
      \n
      I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
      \n
      > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
      \n
      Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
      \n
      I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
      \n
      In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
      \n
      (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
      """
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  +body: """
    Ok, yeah. I think I misinterpreted the bit of your post that I quoted.\n
    \n
    About Google, it’s not necessarily Google who manufactured your phone. It is if you have a Pixel, but it might be Samsung or LG or ZTE phone or whatever. And it’s not necessarily them who sold you your phone. It might be T-Mobile or Mint Mobile or AT&T. Whoever conveyed GPL’d code in object form (as the GPL puts it “embodied in, a physical product”) has the responsibility of ensuring you can get from them the source of all GPL’d code on your device. Including all derivative works and modifications.\n
    \n
    Derivative works includes kernel modules. Which includes device drivers for, say, 5G modems and fingerprint readers. And those are the kinds of things (aside maybe from tivoization) that are the biggest hurtles for making a fully free firmware for a given device.\n
    \n
    So, yes, I mean the kernel *and derivative works* of the kernel like drivers. And of course anything else on the device that is GPL’d.\n
    \n
    Plus, the GPL also includes what is necessary to compile and install GPL’d code as part of the source code. Some of the implications are pretty cool. See [this article](https://sfconservancy.org/blog/2021/jul/23/tivoization-and-the-gpl-right-to-install/) by Bradley Kuhn of the Software Freedom Conservancy for more info.\n
    \n
    I think if companies *did* comply with all this, FOSS *could* benefit ordinary users who don’t even know what FOSS is a lot more than it does now.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: """
          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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      +body: """
        > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
        \n
        Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
        \n
        The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
        \n
        There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
        """
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    +body: """
      > Can you elaborate on this?\n
      \n
      I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
      \n
      > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
      \n
      Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
      \n
      I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
      \n
      In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
      \n
      (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
      """
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    > In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld.\n
    \n
    How are phones free-software-hostile? I know IOS is, but Android not really. There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
    \n
    > Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement should be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago\n
    \n
    It does feel out of place how that isn’t in the GPL.
    """
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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      +body: """
        > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
        \n
        Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
        \n
        The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
        \n
        There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
        """
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    +body: """
      > Can you elaborate on this?\n
      \n
      I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
      \n
      > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
      \n
      Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
      \n
      I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
      \n
      In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
      \n
      (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
      """
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    > In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld.\n
    \n
    How are phones free-software-hostile? I know IOS is, but Android not really. There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
    \n
    > Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement should be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago\n
    \n
    It does feel out of place how that isn’t in the GPL.
    """
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
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      What are your thoughts on it?
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          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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      +body: """
        > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
        \n
        Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
        \n
        Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
        \n
        The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
        \n
        There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
        """
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    +body: """
      > Can you elaborate on this?\n
      \n
      I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
      \n
      > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
      \n
      Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
      \n
      I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
      \n
      In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
      \n
      (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
      """
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    > In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld.\n
    \n
    How are phones free-software-hostile? I know IOS is, but Android not really. There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
    \n
    > Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement should be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago\n
    \n
    It does feel out of place how that isn’t in the GPL.
    """
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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        \n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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            I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
            \n
            > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
            \n
            From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
            \n
            RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
            """
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          > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
          \n
          Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
          \n
          The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
          \n
          There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
          """
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      +body: """
        > Can you elaborate on this?\n
        \n
        I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
        \n
        > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
        \n
        Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
        \n
        I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
        \n
        In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
        \n
        (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
        """
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      > In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld.\n
      \n
      How are phones free-software-hostile? I know IOS is, but Android not really. There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
      \n
      > Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement should be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago\n
      \n
      It does feel out of place how that isn’t in the GPL.
      """
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  +body: """
    > There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
    \n
    Yeah, I get that. This is why I’m not fully in agreement with Perens that this is an urgent problem.\n
    \n
    > How are phones free-software-hostile?\n
    \n
    Because the whole idea of the GPL was to usher in a future that was like the environment RMS grew up in, where you always had the source code to all your stuff and you could examine or modify or build on it. Linux machines are in actual practice that way, which is super cool. Android phones are basically not, from the viewpoint of almost any mortal human. I think the argument is that the efforts that the manufacturers make to close off modifications to the phones, and then put software on them that’s sometimes hostile to the best interests of the phone owner, means they shouldn’t be able to use all this GPL-licensed software for free in order to build the phones they’re selling.
    """
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      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          +body: """
            I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
            \n
            > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
            \n
            From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
            \n
            RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
            """
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        +body: """
          > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
          \n
          Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
          \n
          The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
          \n
          There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
          """
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      +body: """
        > Can you elaborate on this?\n
        \n
        I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
        \n
        > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
        \n
        Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
        \n
        I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
        \n
        In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
        \n
        (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
        """
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      > In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld.\n
      \n
      How are phones free-software-hostile? I know IOS is, but Android not really. There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
      \n
      > Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement should be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago\n
      \n
      It does feel out of place how that isn’t in the GPL.
      """
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    > There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
    \n
    Yeah, I get that. This is why I’m not fully in agreement with Perens that this is an urgent problem.\n
    \n
    > How are phones free-software-hostile?\n
    \n
    Because the whole idea of the GPL was to usher in a future that was like the environment RMS grew up in, where you always had the source code to all your stuff and you could examine or modify or build on it. Linux machines are in actual practice that way, which is super cool. Android phones are basically not, from the viewpoint of almost any mortal human. I think the argument is that the efforts that the manufacturers make to close off modifications to the phones, and then put software on them that’s sometimes hostile to the best interests of the phone owner, means they shouldn’t be able to use all this GPL-licensed software for free in order to build the phones they’re selling.
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        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          +body: """
            I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
            \n
            > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
            \n
            From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
            \n
            RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
            """
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          > BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.\n
          \n
          Can you elaborate on this? I would have said exactly the opposite. That the GPL’s copyleft scheme and requirement of providing source code was very intentionally meant to be a way to prevent big corporations from taking advantage of users via software. I’ll admit that vision hasn’t born the fruit (that I’d’ve said) it was intended to. But wasn’t the intention there?\n
          \n
          Meanwhile, BSD doesn’t have any provisions intended to keep some big company from distributing compiled binaries sans source code with lots of antifeatures added.\n
          \n
          The terms of the GPL specifically require that you be able to specifically demand all source code of any GPL’d code on your smartphone (or smart TV or toaster or garage door opener or whatever) so that you can build at least the GPL parts of the firmware for your own devices. If the courts would just back that up, you *would* be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run *that* on your phone. That was the intention of the GPL. And the terms of the GPL *have* been used to bear fruit in that direction. OpenWRT wouldn’t exist if Free Software advocates didn’t threaten legal action if… who was it… Broadcom?.. didn’t comply with the GPL and release its source code.\n
          \n
          There is still Tivoization to contend with. (Locked bootloaders, basically.) Some (like Bradley Kuhn) think the GPL’s terms are sufficient to prevent that from being a problem already.
          """
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      +body: """
        > Can you elaborate on this?\n
        \n
        I think we’re saying the same thing; maybe I worded it confusingly. BSD is supposed to allow proprietary-ization, and GPL is supposed to prevent it. Apple is within both the letter and spirit of the BSD license with what they’re doing with iOS. Google is *technically* within the letter of the GPL with how they distribute Android, just as Redhat is *technically* within it in how they distribute RHEL, and honestly maybe both cases are fine, but it’s far from the intent. The spirit of the GPL is that people who would receive an Android phone would know that the relevant parts of their phone’s software are open source and have a realistic ability to modify them, which I’d argue is true for pretty much 0% of even tech-savvy users today.\n
        \n
        > If the courts would just back that up, you would be able to recompile all the GPL’d parts of your smartphone’s firmware and run that on your phone.\n
        \n
        Firmware? You mean kernel, right? (in addition to whatever low-level userland tools are GPLd, which I’m sure is a bunch.)\n
        \n
        I don’t think Google really did anything wrong here. The letter of the law is being upheld pretty well in what *they’re* doing. I think the issue is the cell phone manufacturers making it de facto impossible to modify your cell phone. I don’t think the GPL actually makes any requirement for modifying the software in-place being a requirement (nor should it IMO), and providing the source code is done carefully in accordance with the license. It’s very different from the “fuck you I take your stuff, sue me hippie” stance that Broadcom took. Broadcom very clearly broke the law.\n
        \n
        In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld. IDK how you can write something like that into a license though. And I think that’s what Perens is saying – that we need a new model that comes closer to the spirit in terms of what the actual result is.\n
        \n
        (Edit: Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement *should* be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago with signed bootloaders and things, so that a recompiled kernel wouldn’t boot on particular machines unless you broke the DMCA by doing something to your hardware. I said I wouldn’t like any attempt in the license to forbid that, but on reflection, it sounds like maybe a pretty good way to better uphold the spirit of the GPL with particular legal language.)
        """
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        date: 2024-03-05 23:32:41.0 +01:00
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        date: 2023-12-31 04:10:42.0 +01:00
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    +body: """
      > In my opinion, the issue is that a cell phone is such a free-software-hostile environment that arguably GPL software shouldn’t “be allowed to” come into contact with it in any capacity if the spirit of the GPL were being upheld.\n
      \n
      How are phones free-software-hostile? I know IOS is, but Android not really. There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
      \n
      > Actually, maybe making it a realistic possibility to drop in a recompiled replacement should be a part of the GPL. I remember people were talking about this decades ago\n
      \n
      It does feel out of place how that isn’t in the GPL.
      """
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      "@TootSweet@lemmy.world"
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  +body: """
    > There’s a list of open source Android distributions. Although not very good, they are viable.\n
    \n
    Yeah, I get that. This is why I’m not fully in agreement with Perens that this is an urgent problem.\n
    \n
    > How are phones free-software-hostile?\n
    \n
    Because the whole idea of the GPL was to usher in a future that was like the environment RMS grew up in, where you always had the source code to all your stuff and you could examine or modify or build on it. Linux machines are in actual practice that way, which is super cool. Android phones are basically not, from the viewpoint of almost any mortal human. I think the argument is that the efforts that the manufacturers make to close off modifications to the phones, and then put software on them that’s sometimes hostile to the best interests of the phone owner, means they shouldn’t be able to use all this GPL-licensed software for free in order to build the phones they’re selling.
    """
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        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        Rules\n
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        \n
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        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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    +body: """
      I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
      \n
      > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
      \n
      From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
      \n
      RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
      """
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    I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
    \n
    I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
    """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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      """
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    I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
    \n
    I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
    """
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        \n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        \n
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        ===================\n
        \n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
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      \n
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      """
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    I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
    \n
    I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
    """
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        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
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        =====\n
        \n
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        - No NSFW content\n
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        ===================\n
        \n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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      +body: """
        I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
        \n
        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
        \n
        From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
        \n
        RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
        """
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4245}
    +body: """
      I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
      \n
      I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
      """
    +lang: "en"
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      date: 2023-12-31 03:15:19.0 +01:00
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  +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4245}
  +body: """
    Depending on the nature of the changes, it might be more advantageous to tell them that it’s easier (i.e. cheaper) to contribute changes upstream, rather than maintaining them separately forever. Also, the good will and reputation boost involved can be significant.\n
    \n
    Don’t say it if it isn’t true or anything, but in a lot of cases it’s true.
    """
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}
 
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155 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#4747
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
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        I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
        \n
        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
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        RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
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      I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
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      I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
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    Depending on the nature of the changes, it might be more advantageous to tell them that it’s easier (i.e. cheaper) to contribute changes upstream, rather than maintaining them separately forever. Also, the good will and reputation boost involved can be significant.\n
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    Don’t say it if it isn’t true or anything, but in a lot of cases it’s true.
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        Useful Links\n
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
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    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4245}
    +body: """
      I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
      \n
      I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
      """
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    Depending on the nature of the changes, it might be more advantageous to tell them that it’s easier (i.e. cheaper) to contribute changes upstream, rather than maintaining them separately forever. Also, the good will and reputation boost involved can be significant.\n
    \n
    Don’t say it if it isn’t true or anything, but in a lot of cases it’s true.
    """
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}
 
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157 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#4892
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      +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
      +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
      +title: "opensource"
      +description: """
        All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
        \n
        Useful Links\n
        ============\n
        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
        \n
        Rules\n
        =====\n
        \n
        - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
        - No NSFW content\n
        - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
        \n
        Related Communities\n
        ===================\n
        \n
        - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
        - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
        - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
        - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
        \n
        Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
        """
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#1961 …}
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    +slug: "Thoughts-on-Post-Open-Source"
    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
    +url: "https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/27/bruce_perens_post_open/"
    +body: """
      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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  +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4747
    +user: App\Entity\User {#4258 …}
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    +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4464
      +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#4465 …}
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      +parent: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4245
        +user: App\Entity\User {#4258 …}
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        +image: null
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        +body: """
          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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          "@actual_patience@programming.dev"
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      +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4245}
      +body: """
        I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
        \n
        I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
        """
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        date: 2023-12-31 03:15:19.0 +01:00
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    }
    +root: App\Entity\EntryComment {#4245}
    +body: """
      Depending on the nature of the changes, it might be more advantageous to tell them that it’s easier (i.e. cheaper) to contribute changes upstream, rather than maintaining them separately forever. Also, the good will and reputation boost involved can be significant.\n
      \n
      Don’t say it if it isn’t true or anything, but in a lot of cases it’s true.
      """
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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        I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
        \n
        I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
        """
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      Depending on the nature of the changes, it might be more advantageous to tell them that it’s easier (i.e. cheaper) to contribute changes upstream, rather than maintaining them separately forever. Also, the good will and reputation boost involved can be significant.\n
      \n
      Don’t say it if it isn’t true or anything, but in a lot of cases it’s true.
      """
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        \n
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        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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    +title: "Thoughts on Post-Open Source?"
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
      \n
      It’s an interesting concept, but I don’t really see any feasible means to get this to kick off.\n
      \n
      What are your thoughts on it?
      """
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        +body: """
          I wasn’t too psyched about reading this article, but I was surprised at how sensible it is – among a bunch of pretty good points he makes, this is one of them:\n
          \n
          > Another straw burdening the Open Source camel, Perens writes, “is that Open Source has completely failed to serve the common person. For the most part, if they use us at all they do so through a proprietary software company’s systems, like Apple iOS or Google Android, both of which use Open Source for infrastructure but the apps are mostly proprietary. The common person doesn’t know about Open Source, they don’t know about the freedoms we promote which are increasingly in their interest. Indeed, Open Source is used today to surveil and even oppress them.”\n
          \n
          From the end user’s point of view, there is absolutely no open-source-ness to your Android phone. (BSD which iOS is based on was always designed to make this a possibility, but the GPL was not.) They’re using all this software which was supposed to be authored under this theory of GPL, but except for the thinnest thinnest veneer of theoretical source availability, it’s proprietary software at this point.\n
          \n
          RMS actually talked about this. He laid out this vision of this bright future where you’d always have access to the source code for all the software on your computer and the rights to take a look at it or build on it or modify it, and some reporter said, well yes but what about all these other urgent problems that are ruining the world with private industry trying to make money at all costs and destroy it all. And RMS said, more or less: Yes. It bothers me a lot. But I don’t really know about that, and I know software, and I felt like in this one specific area I could write a bunch of software and solve this one problem in this one area where I felt like I could make a difference. If other people could get to to work on these other more urgent problems that’d be great, because they also bother me a lot.
          """
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        I worked at a company that had an open source policy. They wanted to use as much open source as possible but didn’t want to contribute back in any way. I explained to them that’s the antithesis of open source. If they find a bug, they should be willing to try to fix it or at least help fix it. Now all the code they wrote internally was closed source.\n
        \n
        I’m fine with closed source projects but don’t use open source and just leech from it. Eventually people will stop or bugs will never get fixed. Everyone needs to chip in either money or time.
        """
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      Depending on the nature of the changes, it might be more advantageous to tell them that it’s easier (i.e. cheaper) to contribute changes upstream, rather than maintaining them separately forever. Also, the good will and reputation boost involved can be significant.\n
      \n
      Don’t say it if it isn’t true or anything, but in a lot of cases it’s true.
      """
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  +body: "They didn’t ever touch the open source code. They’d just open a bug or feature enhancement. Why it annoyed me so much. I believe open source is best when everyone contributes something. Either time, money, or something of value."
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        \n
        - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
        - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
        - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
        - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
        - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
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        - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
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      TLDR: Companies should be required to pay developers for any open source software they use.\n
      \n
      > He imagines a simple yearly compliance process that gets companies all the rights they need to use Post-Open software. And they’d fund developers who would be encouraged to write software that’s usable by the common person, as opposed to technical experts.\n
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  +body: "Did you read the article? This is 100% the opposite of his point. He wants to, among other things, publicly fund development of open source, at the expense of private companies which are currently profiting from it in arguably-abusive fashion."
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173 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\Magazine {#262
  +icon: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#242 …}
  +name: "opensource@lemmy.ml"
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  +description: """
    All about open source! Feel free to ask questions, and share news, and interesting stuff!\n
    \n
    Useful Links\n
    ============\n
    \n
    - [Open Source Initiative](https://opensource.org/)\n
    - [Free Software Foundation](https://www.fsf.org/)\n
    - [Electronic Frontier Foundation](https://www.eff.org/)\n
    - [Software Freedom Conservancy](https://sfconservancy.org/)\n
    - [It’s FOSS](https://itsfoss.com/)\n
    \n
    Rules\n
    =====\n
    \n
    - Posts must be relevant to the open source ideology\n
    - No NSFW content\n
    - No hate speech, bigotry, etc\n
    \n
    Related Communities\n
    ===================\n
    \n
    - [!libre_culture@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_culture)\n
    - [!libre_software@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_software)\n
    - [!libre_hardware@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/libre_hardware)\n
    - [!linux@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/linux)\n
    - [!technology@lemmy.ml](https://lemmy.ml/c/technology)\n
    \n
    Community icon from opensource.org, but we are not affiliated with them.
    """
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