GET https://kbin.spritesserver.nl/index.php/u/@trailing9@lemmy.ml/commented?p=1

Response
200 OK
IP
216.73.216.21
Profiled on
Token
f02ff3

Security

Token

There is no security token.

Firewall

main Name
Security enabled
Stateless

Configuration

Key Value
provider security.user.provider.concrete.app_user_provider
context main
entry_point App\Security\KbinAuthenticator
user_checker App\Security\UserChecker
access_denied_handler (none)
access_denied_url (none)
authenticators 
[
  "two_factor"
  "remember_me"
  "App\Security\KbinAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\FacebookAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GoogleAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\GithubAuthenticator"
  "App\Security\KeycloakAuthenticator"
]

Listeners

Listener Duration Response 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ChannelListener {#723
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -httpPort: 80
  -httpsPort: 443
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\ContextListener {#706
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\TokenStorage {#1017 …}
  -sessionKey: "_security_main"
  -logger: Monolog\Logger {#783 …}
  -userProviders: Symfony\Component\DependencyInjection\Argument\RewindableGenerator {#705 …}
  -dispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
  -registered: false
  -trustResolver: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authentication\AuthenticationTrustResolver {#780 …}
  -sessionTrackerEnabler: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage::enableUsageTracking(): void {#703 …}
}
 4.67 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AuthenticatorManagerListener {#584
  -authenticatorManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Authentication\AuthenticatorManager {#595 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none) 
Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Http\Firewall\TwoFactorAccessListener {#582
  -twoFactorFirewallConfig: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\TwoFactor\TwoFactorFirewallConfig {#842 …}
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -twoFactorAccessDecider: Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\TwoFactorAccessDecider {#581 …}
}
 0.06 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\AccessListener {#579
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -accessDecisionManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\TraceableAccessDecisionManager {#937 …}
  -map: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\AccessMap {#722 …}
}
 0.01 ms (none) 
Symfony\Component\Security\Http\Firewall\LogoutListener {#786
  -tokenStorage: Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authentication\Token\Storage\UsageTrackingTokenStorage {#1018 …}
  -options: [
    "csrf_parameter" => "_csrf_token"
    "csrf_token_id" => "logout"
    "logout_path" => "app_logout"
  ]
  -httpUtils: Symfony\Component\Security\Http\HttpUtils {#841 …}
  -csrfTokenManager: Symfony\Component\Security\Csrf\CsrfTokenManager {#1015 …}
  -eventDispatcher: Symfony\Component\EventDispatcher\Debug\TraceableEventDispatcher {#747 …}
}
 0.00 ms (none)

Authenticators

No authenticators have been recorded. Check previous profiles on your authentication endpoint.

Access Decision

affirmative Strategy
# Voter class
1 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\AuthenticatedVoter"
2 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
3 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
4 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\ExpressionVoter"
5 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
6 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
7 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
8 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
9 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
10 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
11 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
12 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
13 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
14 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"

Access decision log

# Result Attributes Object
1 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
2 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
  +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 91
  +favouriteCount: 405
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1697973365 {#2210
    date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2695 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2693 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2690 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2724 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2720 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2737 …}
  +children: [
    13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697569906 {#2372
        date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2385 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2378 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2381 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1910 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1909 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1926 …}
      -id: 55117
      -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4980650"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697569906 {#2380
        date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 55117
    }
    14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
        \n
        Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697772659 {#2342
        date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2335 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2338 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2143 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2136 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2073 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2072 …}
      -id: 60552
      -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5050867"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697772659 {#2337
        date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 60552
    }
    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        No I haven’t.\n
        \n
        But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
        \n
        Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697473241 {#1687
        date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1691 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1795 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1711 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1611 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1630 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1628 …}
      -id: 52742
      -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4947677"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
        date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 52742
    }
    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
        \n
        Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
        \n
        Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
        \n
        Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697738509 {#2331
        date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2325 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2329 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2323 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2300 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2340 …}
      -id: 59474
      -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5035374"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697738509 {#2314
        date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 59474
    }
    19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
        \n
        But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
        \n
        Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697911545 {#2311
        date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2302 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2320 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2322 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2312 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2307 …}
      -id: 63360
      -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5091604"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697911545 {#2298
        date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 63360
    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
        \n
        Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
        \n
        If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
        \n
        The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
        \n
        If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
        \n
        Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697688201 {#2138
        date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2330 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2346 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2347 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2344 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2042 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2060 …}
      -id: 58270
      -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5021571"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697688201 {#2040
        date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 58270
    }
    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697772781 {#2065
        date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2071 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2070 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2048 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2056 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2046 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2045 …}
      -id: 60555
      -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5050896"
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        date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 60555
    }
    17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2106 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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      -id: 62572
      -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 62572
    }
    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
        \n
        Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
        """
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        date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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      -id: 63191
      -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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        date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 63191
    }
    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
        \n
        I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
        \n
        New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
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      -id: 54983
      -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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        date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 54983
    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2106 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
        \n
        This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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      -id: 62568
      -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 62568
    }
    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1585 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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      -id: 52632
      -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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        date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 52632
    }
    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
        \n
        For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
        \n
        You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
        \n
        I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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      -id: 63417
      -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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        date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 63417
    }
    15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2054 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        Thanks for the high quality references.\n
        \n
        The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
        \n
        Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
        \n
        You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
        \n
        My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
        \n
        Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
        \n
        The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
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      -id: 62560
      -bodyTs: "'abl':121 'administr':97,126 'advanc':245 'among':63 'approach':60 'argu':128 'aris':266 'armi':276 'articl':8 'better':293 'billionair':106 'busi':219 'cannot':254 'capitalist':252 'choos':69 'class':253 'collaps':113 'communism':19,44,62,142,151,273,298 'communist':133,174,191,220 'constant':216 'cooper':177,234,246,261,281 'could':194 'creat':170,239,243 'deal':284 'destruct':76 'dictatorship':82,165 'dissid':279 'doesn':207 'educ':118 'establish':80 'even':24 'everybodi':93,103 'expand':236 'fail':214 'figur':296 'full':249 'go':248 'hasn':145 'high':4 'identifi':102 'implement':43,141 'instead':183 'likewis':70 'live':195 'make':39 'mani':211 'matter':209 'mistak':41 'much':256 'must':221 'need':162 'nice':10,88 'nobodi':115 'one':16,27,59 'oni':25 'oppress':250 'option':52 'otherwis':109 'parti':28,37,56 'particip':123 'peopl':213,215 'place':149,172,182 'point':154 'popul':66 'prefer':201 'prevent':258 'problem':263,271,287 'proletarian':99,108 'proletariat':85,168 'qualiti':5 'real':270 'realiti':92,198 'refer':6 'relat':175,202 'repres':58 'requir':74 'resourc':224,241 'restaur':231 'revolut':134,190,304 'right':203 'run':229 'show':268 'sinc':143 'singl':36 'small':218 'socialist':193 'start':139,217 'state':78,96,111 'stress':11 'success':132 'suppress':278 'thank':1 'theori':33,89 'think':72 'thus':205 'time':212 'true':31 'valid':51 'various':55 'view':156 'wait':187,301 'way':17,294 'without':247,274 'would':48,112,119 'yet':152"
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 62560
    }
    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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      +body: """
        It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
        \n
        I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
        """
      +lang: "en"
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    }
    16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
      +lang: "en"
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      -id: 55690
      -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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        date: 2023-10-18 04:25:10.0 +02:00
      }
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    }
    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      -id: 53875
      -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4964496"
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        date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 53875
    }
    18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028 …}
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      +body: """
        You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
        \n
        For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
        \n
        Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
        """
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      -id: 55748
      -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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        date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 55748
    }
    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
        \n
        It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      -id: 52783
      -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697474404 {#1618
        date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 52783
    }
    20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
        \n
        But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
        \n
        The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
        \n
        From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
        \n
        Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
        \n
        I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
        """
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      -bodyTs: "'actual':166 'american':12 'argument':91 'articl':89 'avail':29 'bad':143 'bond':200 'busi':187,215 'capit':32,141,157,185,228 'capitalist':178,208 'china':71,99 'chines':61 'collaps':33 'communism':18,37 'communist':149 'cooper':196,211,243 'could':209 'countri':113 'desir':138 'difficult':237 'evil':164 'expect':52 'extrem':78 'funni':190 'global':17 'got':66 'happen':151 'implicit':3 'increas':115 'intens':186 'invest':183 'isn':158 'isol':4 'issu':199 'keep':119,140 'kept':72 'kind':230 'know':217 'less':28 'make':234 'mean':24 'meant':49 'number':74,85,121 'opportun':206,255 'outcom':169 'outsourc':98,104,172 'peopl':76,123 'person':232 'point':130 'popul':117 'posit':168 'possibl':145,155 'poverti':64,79 'powerti':125 'receiv':100,107 'redistribut':43 'reduc':83 'reduct':62 'relat':229 'remain':8 'resourc':6,19,44 'revolut':150 'run':213,241 'see':204 'share':22 'signific':27 'sinc':81 'singl':161 'soon':153 'sourc':162 'spread':94 'start':194 'stuck':135 'support':210 'take':170 'tell':175,249 'text':173 'thought':70 'thus':106 'view':132 'want':181 'war':42 'watch':59 'wealth':96,111 'worker':13 'world':55 'would':20 'wrong':68"
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        date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 64288
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
        \n
        Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
        \n
        I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
        """
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      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
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      -id: 57588
      -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
3 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
  +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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    date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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  +children: [
    13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
      +lang: "en"
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      -id: 55117
      -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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        date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 55117
    }
    14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
        \n
        Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
        """
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      -id: 60552
      -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
      +ranking: 0
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697772659 {#2337
        date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 60552
    }
    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        No I haven’t.\n
        \n
        But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
        \n
        Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
        """
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      -id: 52742
      -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
      +ranking: 0
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      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4947677"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
        date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 52742
    }
    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
        \n
        Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
        \n
        Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
        \n
        Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
        """
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
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      -id: 59474
      -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
      +ranking: 0
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      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5035374"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697738509 {#2314
        date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 59474
    }
    19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
        \n
        But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
        \n
        Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
        """
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        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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      -id: 63360
      -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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        date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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    }
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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      +body: """
        It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
        \n
        Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
        \n
        If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
        \n
        The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
        \n
        If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
        \n
        Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
      +lang: "en"
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      -id: 60555
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        date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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    17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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      +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
      +lang: "en"
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      -id: 62572
      -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
        \n
        Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
        """
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      -id: 63191
      -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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        date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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      +body: """
        We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
        \n
        I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
        \n
        New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
        """
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      -id: 54983
      -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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    }
    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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      +body: """
        The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
        \n
        This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
        """
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      -id: 62568
      -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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      +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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      +body: """
        If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
        \n
        For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
        \n
        You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
        \n
        I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
        """
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      -id: 63417
      -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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      +"title": 63417
    }
    15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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      +body: """
        Thanks for the high quality references.\n
        \n
        The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
        \n
        Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
        \n
        You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
        \n
        My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
        \n
        Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
        \n
        The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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      +ranking: 0
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 62560
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    8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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      +body: """
        It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
        \n
        I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
        """
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      -id: 53165
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        date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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    16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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      -id: 55690
      -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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        date: 2023-10-18 04:25:10.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 55690
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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      -id: 53875
      -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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        date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 53875
    }
    18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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      +body: """
        You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
        \n
        For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
        \n
        Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
        """
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      -id: 55748
      -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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        date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 55748
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    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
        \n
        It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
        """
      +lang: "en"
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        date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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      -id: 52783
      -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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        date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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    20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
        \n
        But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
        \n
        The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
        \n
        From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
        \n
        Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
        \n
        I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
        """
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    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
        \n
        Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
        \n
        I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
        """
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      -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
4 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
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  +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
  +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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    13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
      +lang: "en"
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      -id: 55117
      -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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        date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      +"title": 55117
    }
    14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
      +body: """
        Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
        \n
        Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
        """
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    11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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      +body: """
        No I haven’t.\n
        \n
        But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
        \n
        Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
        """
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    12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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      +body: """
        Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
        \n
        Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
        \n
        Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
        \n
        Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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    19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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      +body: """
        The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
        \n
        But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
        \n
        Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
        """
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    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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      +body: """
        It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
        \n
        Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
        \n
        If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
        \n
        The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
        \n
        If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
        \n
        Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
        """
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    7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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      +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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    17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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      +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
      +lang: "en"
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      -id: 62572
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    5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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      +body: """
        The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
        \n
        Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
        """
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        date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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    6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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      +body: """
        We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
        \n
        I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
        \n
        New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
        """
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      -id: 54983
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        date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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    4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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      +body: """
        The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
        \n
        This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
        """
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        date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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    3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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      +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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    2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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      +body: """
        If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
        \n
        For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
        \n
        You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
        \n
        I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
        """
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        date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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    15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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      +body: """
        Thanks for the high quality references.\n
        \n
        The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
        \n
        Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
        \n
        You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
        \n
        My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
        \n
        Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
        \n
        The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
        """
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        It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
        \n
        I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
        """
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    16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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      +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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    9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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      +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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    18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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      +body: """
        You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
        \n
        For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
        \n
        Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
        """
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    10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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      +body: """
        Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
        \n
        It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
        """
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    20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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      +body: """
        There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
        \n
        But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
        \n
        The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
        \n
        From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
        \n
        Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
        \n
        I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
        """
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    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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      +body: """
        What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
        \n
        Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
        \n
        I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
        """
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        date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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        date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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6 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386}
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52742
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60555
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 63417
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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Show voter details
7 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386}
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
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     …2
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  +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
8 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386}
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52742
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
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  +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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}
 
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10 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343}
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        ]
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
    \n
    Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
    """
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11 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343}
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
        }
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697474404 {#1618
          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
    \n
    Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
    """
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  +"title": 60552
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
12 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343}
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        }
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
    \n
    Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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14 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55117
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697772659 {#2337
          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689}
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697738509 {#2314
          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5091604"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697911545 {#2298
          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2330 …}
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        -id: 58270
        -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
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        +"title": 58270
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60555
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5089959"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697907174 {#2223
          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2468 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 57588
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    No I haven’t.\n
    \n
    But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
    \n
    Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
    """
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  -id: 52742
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
15 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689}
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58270
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    ]
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    No I haven’t.\n
    \n
    But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
    \n
    Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
16 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689}
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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        }
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    No I haven’t.\n
    \n
    But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
    \n
    Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
    """
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
18 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289}
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        -id: 58270
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697907174 {#2223
          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 62568
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52632
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        -id: 64288
        -bodyTs: "'actual':166 'american':12 'argument':91 'articl':89 'avail':29 'bad':143 'bond':200 'busi':187,215 'capit':32,141,157,185,228 'capitalist':178,208 'china':71,99 'chines':61 'collaps':33 'communism':18,37 'communist':149 'cooper':196,211,243 'could':209 'countri':113 'desir':138 'difficult':237 'evil':164 'expect':52 'extrem':78 'funni':190 'global':17 'got':66 'happen':151 'implicit':3 'increas':115 'intens':186 'invest':183 'isn':158 'isol':4 'issu':199 'keep':119,140 'kept':72 'kind':230 'know':217 'less':28 'make':234 'mean':24 'meant':49 'number':74,85,121 'opportun':206,255 'outcom':169 'outsourc':98,104,172 'peopl':76,123 'person':232 'point':130 'popul':117 'posit':168 'possibl':145,155 'poverti':64,79 'powerti':125 'receiv':100,107 'redistribut':43 'reduc':83 'reduct':62 'relat':229 'remain':8 'resourc':6,19,44 'revolut':150 'run':213,241 'see':204 'share':22 'signific':27 'sinc':81 'singl':161 'soon':153 'sourc':162 'spread':94 'start':194 'stuck':135 'support':210 'take':170 'tell':175,249 'text':173 'thought':70 'thus':106 'view':132 'want':181 'war':42 'watch':59 'wealth':96,111 'worker':13 'world':55 'would':20 'wrong':68"
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 64288
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
    \n
    Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
    \n
    Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
    \n
    Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
    """
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  -id: 59474
  -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
19 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289}
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        ]
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60555
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697512943 {#2465
          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 53875
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697474404 {#1618
          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 64288
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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  +body: """
    Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
    \n
    Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
    \n
    Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
    \n
    Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
20 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4947677"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289}
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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        -id: 62560
        -bodyTs: "'abl':121 'administr':97,126 'advanc':245 'among':63 'approach':60 'argu':128 'aris':266 'armi':276 'articl':8 'better':293 'billionair':106 'busi':219 'cannot':254 'capitalist':252 'choos':69 'class':253 'collaps':113 'communism':19,44,62,142,151,273,298 'communist':133,174,191,220 'constant':216 'cooper':177,234,246,261,281 'could':194 'creat':170,239,243 'deal':284 'destruct':76 'dictatorship':82,165 'dissid':279 'doesn':207 'educ':118 'establish':80 'even':24 'everybodi':93,103 'expand':236 'fail':214 'figur':296 'full':249 'go':248 'hasn':145 'high':4 'identifi':102 'implement':43,141 'instead':183 'likewis':70 'live':195 'make':39 'mani':211 'matter':209 'mistak':41 'much':256 'must':221 'need':162 'nice':10,88 'nobodi':115 'one':16,27,59 'oni':25 'oppress':250 'option':52 'otherwis':109 'parti':28,37,56 'particip':123 'peopl':213,215 'place':149,172,182 'point':154 'popul':66 'prefer':201 'prevent':258 'problem':263,271,287 'proletarian':99,108 'proletariat':85,168 'qualiti':5 'real':270 'realiti':92,198 'refer':6 'relat':175,202 'repres':58 'requir':74 'resourc':224,241 'restaur':231 'revolut':134,190,304 'right':203 'run':229 'show':268 'sinc':143 'singl':36 'small':218 'socialist':193 'start':139,217 'state':78,96,111 'stress':11 'success':132 'suppress':278 'thank':1 'theori':33,89 'think':72 'thus':205 'time':212 'true':31 'valid':51 'various':55 'view':156 'wait':187,301 'way':17,294 'without':247,274 'would':48,112,119 'yet':152"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62560
      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1733 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 53165
        -bodyTs: "'also':6 'believ':14 'combin':28 'convinc':11 'found':30 'new':4 'possibl':18 'tri':8,24 'way':12 'work':27 'worth':23"
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 53165
      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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          date: 2023-10-18 04:25:10.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55690
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697512943 {#2465
          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 53875
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        +lastActive: DateTime @1697598582 {#2011
          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2029 …}
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697598582 {#2033
          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
        +score: 0
        +lastActive: DateTime @1697474404 {#1599
          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +ip: null
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          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
        +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1725 …}
        +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1722 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1736 …}
        +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1737 …}
        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
        +ranking: 0
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        +visibility: "visible             "
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697474404 {#1618
          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2279 …}
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        -id: 64288
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 64288
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        ]
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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  +body: """
    Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
    \n
    Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
    \n
    Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
    \n
    Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
    """
  +lang: "en"
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    "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
    "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
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  -id: 59474
  -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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    date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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  +"title": 59474
}
 
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Show voter details
21 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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22 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
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    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697658088 {#2095
          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 57588
      }
    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1697433893
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    +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6506491"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697347493 {#2660
      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
  +body: """
    The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
    \n
    But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
    \n
    Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
    """
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    date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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Show voter details
23 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686 …}
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 58270
        -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55748
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':166 'american':12 'argument':91 'articl':89 'avail':29 'bad':143 'bond':200 'busi':187,215 'capit':32,141,157,185,228 'capitalist':178,208 'china':71,99 'chines':61 'collaps':33 'communism':18,37 'communist':149 'cooper':196,211,243 'could':209 'countri':113 'desir':138 'difficult':237 'evil':164 'expect':52 'extrem':78 'funni':190 'global':17 'got':66 'happen':151 'implicit':3 'increas':115 'intens':186 'invest':183 'isn':158 'isol':4 'issu':199 'keep':119,140 'kept':72 'kind':230 'know':217 'less':28 'make':234 'mean':24 'meant':49 'number':74,85,121 'opportun':206,255 'outcom':169 'outsourc':98,104,172 'peopl':76,123 'person':232 'point':130 'popul':117 'posit':168 'possibl':145,155 'poverti':64,79 'powerti':125 'receiv':100,107 'redistribut':43 'reduc':83 'reduct':62 'relat':229 'remain':8 'resourc':6,19,44 'revolut':150 'run':213,241 'see':204 'share':22 'signific':27 'sinc':81 'singl':161 'soon':153 'sourc':162 'spread':94 'start':194 'stuck':135 'support':210 'take':170 'tell':175,249 'text':173 'thought':70 'thus':106 'view':132 'want':181 'war':42 'watch':59 'wealth':96,111 'worker':13 'world':55 'would':20 'wrong':68"
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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  +body: """
    The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
    \n
    But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
    \n
    Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
24 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4947677"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293}
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        -id: 53165
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
    \n
    But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
    \n
    Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
    """
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}
 
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
    \n
    Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
    \n
    If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
    \n
    The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
    \n
    If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
    \n
    Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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Show voter details
27 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697871984 {#2109
          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62568
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1585 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2054 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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        ]
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 53875
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        ]
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        -id: 55748
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4992420"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
    \n
    Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
    \n
    If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
    \n
    The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
    \n
    If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
    \n
    Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
28 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345}
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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        +"title": 52632
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55748
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      }
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
    \n
    Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
    \n
    If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
    \n
    The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
    \n
    If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
    \n
    Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
    """
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29 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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30 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066}
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
  +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
  +lang: "en"
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
31 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066}
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697872332 {#2116
          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        ]
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55748
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
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     …2
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  +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
32 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066}
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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  +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
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  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
  +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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  -id: 62572
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    date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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Show voter details
35 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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      date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697772659 {#2337
          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
        +ranking: 0
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        +editedAt: null
        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60555
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120}
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62568
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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        ]
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        ]
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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Show voter details
36 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120}
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 53875
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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}
 
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37 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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38 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5050867"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63417
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
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  +body: """
    The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
    \n
    Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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Show voter details
39 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +image: null
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 57588
      }
    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
    \n
    Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
    """
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  -id: 63191
  -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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Show voter details
40 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        -id: 58270
        -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58270
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60555
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227}
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    ]
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
    \n
    Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -id: 60555
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53165
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53875
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55748
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
    \n
    I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
    \n
    New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
    """
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  +"title": 54983
}
 
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
43 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697962360 {#2282
          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 64288
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
    \n
    I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
    \n
    New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
    """
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  -id: 54983
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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44 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +"title": 58270
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459}
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        ]
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      }
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    ]
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
    \n
    I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
    \n
    New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
    """
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}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62560
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        -id: 53165
        -bodyTs: "'also':6 'believ':14 'combin':28 'convinc':11 'found':30 'new':4 'possibl':18 'tri':8,24 'way':12 'work':27 'worth':23"
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53165
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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          date: 2023-10-18 04:25:10.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55690
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53875
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697474404 {#1618
          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
    \n
    This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
    """
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  -id: 62568
  -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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    date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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  +"title": 62568
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
47 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
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    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2695 …}
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    +children: [
      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2468 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 54983
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
    \n
    This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
48 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60555
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103}
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        -id: 52632
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 63417
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    ]
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
    \n
    This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
    """
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}
 
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49 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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50 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62560
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        -id: 53165
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53165
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53875
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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     …2
  }
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  +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
51 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2468 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4978215"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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  +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
52 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +"title": 58270
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        +"title": 60555
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        -id: 54983
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
        }
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568}
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
  +lang: "en"
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54 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304}
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53165
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':166 'american':12 'argument':91 'articl':89 'avail':29 'bad':143 'bond':200 'busi':187,215 'capit':32,141,157,185,228 'capitalist':178,208 'china':71,99 'chines':61 'collaps':33 'communism':18,37 'communist':149 'cooper':196,211,243 'could':209 'countri':113 'desir':138 'difficult':237 'evil':164 'expect':52 'extrem':78 'funni':190 'global':17 'got':66 'happen':151 'implicit':3 'increas':115 'intens':186 'invest':183 'isn':158 'isol':4 'issu':199 'keep':119,140 'kept':72 'kind':230 'know':217 'less':28 'make':234 'mean':24 'meant':49 'number':74,85,121 'opportun':206,255 'outcom':169 'outsourc':98,104,172 'peopl':76,123 'person':232 'point':130 'popul':117 'posit':168 'possibl':145,155 'poverti':64,79 'powerti':125 'receiv':100,107 'redistribut':43 'reduc':83 'reduct':62 'relat':229 'remain':8 'resourc':6,19,44 'revolut':150 'run':213,241 'see':204 'share':22 'signific':27 'sinc':81 'singl':161 'soon':153 'sourc':162 'spread':94 'start':194 'stuck':135 'support':210 'take':170 'tell':175,249 'text':173 'thought':70 'thus':106 'view':132 'want':181 'war':42 'watch':59 'wealth':96,111 'worker':13 'world':55 'would':20 'wrong':68"
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
    \n
    For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
    \n
    You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
    \n
    I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
55 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4980650"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55117
      }
      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
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  +body: """
    If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
    \n
    For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
    \n
    You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
    \n
    I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
    """
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  -id: 63417
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
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Show voter details
56 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697872332 {#2116
          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        ]
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62568
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1585 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        ]
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304}
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 53875
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
        }
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1617 …}
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
    \n
    For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
    \n
    You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
    \n
    I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2350 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2330 …}
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        -id: 58270
        -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697688201 {#2040
          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 58270
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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        ]
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60555
      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2106 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2161 …}
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2216 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        ]
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2106 …}
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2110 …}
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        +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2122 …}
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1585 …}
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 1
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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        }
        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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        }
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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          date: 2023-10-18 04:25:10.0 +02:00
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
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  +body: """
    Thanks for the high quality references.\n
    \n
    The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
    \n
    Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
    \n
    You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
    \n
    My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
    \n
    Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
    \n
    The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
    """
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59 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
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  +body: """
    Thanks for the high quality references.\n
    \n
    The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
    \n
    Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
    \n
    You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
    \n
    My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
    \n
    Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
    \n
    The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
60 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
        }
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697872332 {#2116
          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 62568
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052}
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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        +"title": 55690
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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  +body: """
    Thanks for the high quality references.\n
    \n
    The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
    \n
    Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
    \n
    You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
    \n
    My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
    \n
    Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
    \n
    The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
    """
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62560
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735}
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':166 'american':12 'argument':91 'articl':89 'avail':29 'bad':143 'bond':200 'busi':187,215 'capit':32,141,157,185,228 'capitalist':178,208 'china':71,99 'chines':61 'collaps':33 'communism':18,37 'communist':149 'cooper':196,211,243 'could':209 'countri':113 'desir':138 'difficult':237 'evil':164 'expect':52 'extrem':78 'funni':190 'global':17 'got':66 'happen':151 'implicit':3 'increas':115 'intens':186 'invest':183 'isn':158 'isol':4 'issu':199 'keep':119,140 'kept':72 'kind':230 'know':217 'less':28 'make':234 'mean':24 'meant':49 'number':74,85,121 'opportun':206,255 'outcom':169 'outsourc':98,104,172 'peopl':76,123 'person':232 'point':130 'popul':117 'posit':168 'possibl':145,155 'poverti':64,79 'powerti':125 'receiv':100,107 'redistribut':43 'reduc':83 'reduct':62 'relat':229 'remain':8 'resourc':6,19,44 'revolut':150 'run':213,241 'see':204 'share':22 'signific':27 'sinc':81 'singl':161 'soon':153 'sourc':162 'spread':94 'start':194 'stuck':135 'support':210 'take':170 'tell':175,249 'text':173 'thought':70 'thus':106 'view':132 'want':181 'war':42 'watch':59 'wealth':96,111 'worker':13 'world':55 'would':20 'wrong':68"
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
    \n
    I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
    """
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Show voter details
63 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697347493 {#2660
      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
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     …2
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  +body: """
    It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
    \n
    I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
    """
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  -id: 53165
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    date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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  +"title": 53165
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
64 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58270
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        ]
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 63417
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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        ]
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735}
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
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        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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    ]
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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  +body: """
    It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
    \n
    I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
    """
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66 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53875
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697474404 {#1618
          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'actual':166 'american':12 'argument':91 'articl':89 'avail':29 'bad':143 'bond':200 'busi':187,215 'capit':32,141,157,185,228 'capitalist':178,208 'china':71,99 'chines':61 'collaps':33 'communism':18,37 'communist':149 'cooper':196,211,243 'could':209 'countri':113 'desir':138 'difficult':237 'evil':164 'expect':52 'extrem':78 'funni':190 'global':17 'got':66 'happen':151 'implicit':3 'increas':115 'intens':186 'invest':183 'isn':158 'isol':4 'issu':199 'keep':119,140 'kept':72 'kind':230 'know':217 'less':28 'make':234 'mean':24 'meant':49 'number':74,85,121 'opportun':206,255 'outcom':169 'outsourc':98,104,172 'peopl':76,123 'person':232 'point':130 'popul':117 'posit':168 'possibl':145,155 'poverti':64,79 'powerti':125 'receiv':100,107 'redistribut':43 'reduc':83 'reduct':62 'relat':229 'remain':8 'resourc':6,19,44 'revolut':150 'run':213,241 'see':204 'share':22 'signific':27 'sinc':81 'singl':161 'soon':153 'sourc':162 'spread':94 'start':194 'stuck':135 'support':210 'take':170 'tell':175,249 'text':173 'thought':70 'thus':106 'view':132 'want':181 'war':42 'watch':59 'wealth':96,111 'worker':13 'world':55 'would':20 'wrong':68"
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
        }
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2086 …}
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
  +lang: "en"
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
67 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
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    +image: null
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
    +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4ee44cc-32b5-4d3a-af9b-27f75c66f351.png"
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      date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4980650"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5050867"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697772659 {#2337
          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1686 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
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  +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
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Show voter details
68 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +image: null
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404}
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 57588
      }
    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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  -id: 55690
  -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
        +ranking: 0
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        -id: 52632
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464}
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      }
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        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
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     …2
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  +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
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Show voter details
71 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63417
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464}
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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        +"title": 55748
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
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     …2
  }
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  +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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72 DENIED moderate 
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464}
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 64288
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 57588
      }
    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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  +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
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    date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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    "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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    date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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  +"title": 53875
}
 
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73 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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74 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4947677"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2309 …}
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        -id: 58270
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
        }
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 53875
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1597 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697474404 {#1618
          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2276 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
    \n
    For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
    \n
    Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
    """
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}
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
75 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697913787 {#2305
          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
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  +body: """
    You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
    \n
    For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
    \n
    Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
    """
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 62568
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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        ]
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021}
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 52783
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        ]
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
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  +body: """
    You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
    \n
    For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
    \n
    Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
    """
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  +"title": 55748
}
 
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App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'3':5 'agre':31 'also':17,214 'anoth':72 'armi':94 'believ':40 'boat':179 'busi':188 'cannot':30 'capit':53,68,76,118,149 'capitalist':176,212,224 'choic':199 'class':54,78 'comment':27 'communism':206 'communist':230 'competit':166 'continu':120 'cooper':42,60,69,98,132,142,205 'corner':110 'creat':145,194 'dedic':184 'despit':43 'destroy':59,105 'detail':26 'determin':164 'differ':223 'disagre':9 'discuss':128 'distribut':114 'enough':192 'even':144 'everybodi':79,85,123,135 'fascism':57 'full':56 'get':86 'hope':231 'incent':146 'interest':3 'key':89 'know':21 'knowledg':38,155 'labor':96,106 'lack':36,154 'let':174 'like':19 'live':186 'maintain':148 'market':107,111 'member':73 'mention':50 'monopoli':82 'much':130 'need':181 'own':77 'particip':126 'peopl':6,182,217 'prevent':210 'problem':46,90,237 'process':189 'rate':108 'reject':24 'requir':133 'reserv':93 'restraint':101 'revolut':65 'see':159 'seem':7 'show':99 'socialist':140,204 'societi':171 'surplus':116 'tell':13 'turn':55 'unfortun':28 'uninterrupt':121 'valid':45 'valu':161,173,193 'vote':222 'want':80,124,136,169 'weak':228 'without':12,165,172 'work':201,225 'would':18"
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
        }
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625}
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
    \n
    It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
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Show voter details
79 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5050867"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 59474
      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63360
      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
        -bodyTs: "'communism':9 'cooper':3 'layer':7 'manag':6,11 'need':4,10"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        }
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55748
      }
      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625}
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
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    ]
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     …2
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  +body: """
    Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
    \n
    It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
    """
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625}
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 57588
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    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
    }
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
    \n
    It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
    """
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  -id: 52783
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}
 
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81 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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82 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 60552
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697474404 {#1618
          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2091 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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          date: 2023-10-18 21:41:28.0 +02:00
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
    \n
    But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
    \n
    The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
    \n
    From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
    \n
    Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
    \n
    I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
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"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
83 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2336 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697473241 {#1680
          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 60555
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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        }
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      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
        }
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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        -id: 53165
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          date: 2023-10-16 22:07:45.0 +02:00
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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        +"title": 55690
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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        -id: 52783
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278}
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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        -id: 57588
        -bodyTs: "'believ':75 'capit':85 'chang':92 'class':87 'classic':49 'cooper':33,57,109 'could':13,41 'cut':29 'domin':39 'drone':23 'fight':108 'find':67 'fought':15 'global':30 'hierarchi':50 'inde':74 'industri':8 'interrupt':27 'lack':6 'let':97 'life':65 'line':32 'live':62 'mani':56 'meant':3 'need':20,80 'own':86 'peopl':44 'place':69 'polit':94 'power':101 'prefer':45 'resourc':106 'revolut':12,25,77 'rifl':17 'socialist':64 'suppli':31 'system':95 'tank':21 'today':18 'unifi':84 'want':60 'wast':105 'whoever':59 'work':47"
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    ]
    -id: 5468
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
    \n
    But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
    \n
    The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
    \n
    From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
    \n
    Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
    \n
    I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
    """
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
84 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        }
        +"title": 60552
      }
      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      }
      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      }
      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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        -id: 60555
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278}
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        +body: """
          What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
          \n
          Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
          \n
          I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
          """
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
    \n
    But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
    \n
    The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
    \n
    From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
    \n
    Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
    \n
    I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
    """
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    date: 2023-10-22 10:12:40.0 +02:00
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85 DENIED ROLE_USER 
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86 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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        -id: 59474
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 06:03:21.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 58270
      }
      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
        +lang: "en"
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      }
      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2106 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 62572
        -bodyTs: "'author':36 'capitalist':20,25 'class':21 'communist':9 'consequ':33 'dictatorship':22 'distinguish':10 'machin':7,17,40 'mention':4 'much':28 'necess':13 'repress':24 'state':6,16,26,39 'text':3"
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:12:12.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62572
      }
      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63191
      }
      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2468 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2470 …}
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4978215"
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          date: 2023-10-17 19:28:17.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 54983
      }
      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2106 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
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        -id: 62568
        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:06:24.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62568
      }
      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1585 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52632
        -bodyTs: "'bond':11 'busi':23 'favor':13 'interest':14 'investor':1 'issu':10 'long':17 'make':4 'money':5 'rate':15 'solid':22 'want':2"
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          date: 2023-10-16 17:24:53.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52632
      }
      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2303 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
        +lang: "en"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
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          "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2319 …}
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        -id: 63417
        -bodyTs: "'america':65 'american':3 'argument':50,76 'arriv':32 'blue':26 'burn':24 'cannot':57 'capitalist':9 'china':17,81,83 'choic':34 'claim':4 'communism':15 'communist':62,78 'context':47 'enough':94 'european':30 'everi':5 'expect':58 'extrem':87 'get':74 'good':93 'hasn':84 'headcount':89 'increas':86 'isol':36,55 'know':21 'land':6 'left':13 'loss':43 'much':11 'nativ':2 'navi':28 'origin':39 'past':42 'poverti':88 'problem':53 'relat':79 'revolut':63 'taken':7 'trader':31 'watch':70 'water':27 'world':68"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:43:07.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 63417
      }
      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2054 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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        ]
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        -id: 62560
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      }
      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      }
      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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          date: 2023-10-18 04:25:10.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55690
      }
      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
        +isAdult: false
        +favouriteCount: 0
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 53875
        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4964496"
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        +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697512943 {#2465
          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 53875
      }
      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2028 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55748
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52783
      }
      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +image: null
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
    -bodyTs: null
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    +upVotes: 0
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
    \n
    Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
    \n
    I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
    """
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  +"title": 57588
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
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"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
87 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      date: 2023-10-22 13:16:05.0 +02:00
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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          date: 2023-10-17 21:11:46.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
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        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'believ':51 'break':54 'capit':53 'communist':8,15,47 'compet':78 'convinc':27 'cooper':35,81 'could':72 'develop':73 'doesn':18 'easi':40 'easier':44 'establish':34 'fulli':7 'hasn':10 'instead':67 'literatur':70 'polit':77 'read':69 'revolut':16,48 'right':36 'run':80 'show':75 'sinc':1 'socialist':71 'sovjet':3 'stop':20 'success':14 'suit':63 'time':66 'tough':65 'tri':23 'union':4 'unless':49 'way':32"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:30:59.0 +02:00
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        +"title": 60552
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      11 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1689
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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        -id: 52742
        -bodyTs: "'bigger':23 'bond':35 'cooper':20,30 'expand':19 'expect':7 'haven':3 'issu':34 'know':27 'particip':16 'peopl':12 'problem':24 'search':10 'want':14,32"
        +ranking: 0
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        +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/4947677"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:20:41.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 52742
      }
      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
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        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2328 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
          "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
        ]
        +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2326 …}
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        -id: 59474
        -bodyTs: "'advantag':18,42 'also':13 'avail':35 'benefit':22 'big':41 'cad':37 'capit':43,63 'choos':74 'compet':76 'cooper':1,79,80,89 'could':81 'creat':39,82 'destruct':48 'exploit':24 'exponenti':49 'get':68 'growth':50 'inher':46 'instead':77 'investor':56 'layer':11 'lost':30 'major':72 'manag':10 'microchip':32 'necessari':62 'need':53 'overcom':20 'owner':7 'pay':6 'race':28,33 'self':47 'shouldn':14 'slack':16 'space':27,83 'succeed':58 'system':38 'thrive':65 'time':67 'tough':69 'ussr':25 'want':87 'won':26 'worker':12"
        +ranking: 0
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2291 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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        -id: 63360
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':29 'approach':56 'argu':47 'author':7 'away':22 'back':31 'bad':37 'better':119 'china':85 'come':94,120 'communism':51 'communist':116 'cooper':138 'doesn':8 'end':102 'even':79 'explain':21 'exploit':60 'find':131 'global':41,55 'hand':17 'hint':63 'histori':87 'instead':71 'interest':4,44 'invent':19 'invis':16 'isol':49 'keep':68 'know':12,89 'known':30 'look':83 'make':109 'new':124,133 'outsourc':26,34 'problem':91 'relat':117 'rememb':100 'resourc':70 'revolut':111 'risk':24 'seem':10 'share':73 'smith':14 'someth':123 'spread':39 'strategi':97 'text':2,105 'unnecessari':112 'usual':52 'virtual':107 'want':66,115,129 'way':134 'wealth':40 'work':137 'world':77"
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          date: 2023-10-21 20:05:45.0 +02:00
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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          date: 2023-10-20 05:33:01.0 +02:00
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
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        -id: 62572
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
        -bodyTs: "'big':40 'bound':43 'come':37 'communist':18 'continu':31 'cooper':41,52 'current':39 'destroy':46 'erod':5 'even':22,33 'exploit':32 'global':16 'less':23 'live':4 'resourc':10,24 'restaur':53 'revolut':19,36 'share':15 'small':51 'standard':2 'start':12,49 'unless':25 'west':8 'willing':29 'would':20"
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          date: 2023-10-21 18:52:54.0 +02:00
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
        -bodyTs: "'asset':48 'away':66 'bond':19,26 'cannot':24 'come':9 'compani':44 'cooper':16,23,75 'differ':5,11 'establish':15 'expans':21 'founder':53 'fund':8 'give':63 'influenc':65 'initi':7 'issu':18,25 'judg':30 'limit':54 'new':22 'nobodi':28 'one':70 'opposit':59 'own':46,69 'particip':74 'risk':12,32 'sell':40 'share':41 'simpli':2 'startup':38 'talk':3 'thing':6 'think':14 'vote':71 'zuckerberg':61"
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        -bodyTs: "'busi':5,56 'capitalist':39 'class':11,40 'compens':16,28 'compet':53 'cooper':22,50 'differ':2 'doesn':12 'give':49 'higher':15 'manag':8 'member':45 'motiv':47 'owner':19 'part':36 'regular':4,55 'requir':14 'room':51 'similar':17 'togeth':42 'want':25,33 'worker':48"
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      3 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1568
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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      2 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2304
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        -id: 63417
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      15 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2052
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-21 09:00:15.0 +02:00
        }
        +"title": 62560
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      8 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1735
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        +body: """
          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1363 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55690
        -bodyTs: "'apart':15 'cannot':11 'communist':7 'cooper':14 'revolut':8 'use':17 'violenc':18"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
        +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1549 …2}
        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2463 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
        +lang: "en"
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        -bodyTs: "'bond':26 'buy':24 'convinc':4 'cooper':13,25 'done':17 'financ':12 'hesit':22 'investor':19 'mean':6 'ok':1 'search':8"
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          date: 2023-10-17 05:22:23.0 +02:00
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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        -id: 55748
        -bodyTs: "'alreadi':27,58 'arguing.for':8 'capitalist':41 'china':31 'communist':12,19 'cooper':45 'everyth':56 'ignor':16 'industri':38 'mean':23 'necessari':28 'need':52 'posit':10 'possibl':33 'product':25 'relat':42 'revolut':20,54 'russia':29 'somehow':13 'tell':4 'today':21 'want':14 'within':43"
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          date: 2023-10-18 05:09:42.0 +02:00
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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          "@marcuse1w@lemmy.ml"
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        -id: 52783
        -bodyTs: "'believ':9 'bond':6 'buy':13 'capit':31 'cooper':2 'invest':19 'issu':5 'nobodi':11 'particip':27 'peopl':21 'perfect':18 'usual':30 'want':25"
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          date: 2023-10-16 18:40:04.0 +02:00
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087}
    ]
    -id: 5468
    -titleTs: "'fall':4 'wait':1"
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      date: 2023-10-15 07:24:53.0 +02:00
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
    \n
    Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
    \n
    I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
    """
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
88 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2087
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    +slug: "Waiting-For-the-Fall"
    +title: "Waiting For the Fall"
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      13 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2386
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        +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2382 …}
        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: "Does difficulty matter? Any communist revolution will be more difficult than establishing a network of cooperatives. I believe that if there is a desire for Socialism, people will spend the time to establish cooperatives."
        +lang: "en"
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        -id: 55117
        -bodyTs: "'believ':18 'communist':5 'cooper':16,34 'desir':24 'difficult':10 'difficulti':2 'establish':12,33 'matter':3 'network':14 'peopl':27 'revolut':6 'social':26 'spend':29 'time':31"
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        +"title": 55117
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      14 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2343
        +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
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        +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1576 …}
        +body: """
          Since the sovjet union was not fully communist, there hasn’t been a successful communist revolution. That doesn’t stop you from trying. Why are you convinced that there is no way to establish cooperatives. Right, it’s not easy but it’s easier than a communist revolution. Unless you believe that capitalism breaks down on its own because it is not suited for tough times.\n
          \n
          Instead of reading literature, socialists could develop and show their political competence by running cooperatives.
          """
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        +body: """
          No I haven’t.\n
          \n
          But I expect that the search for people who want to participate in an expanding cooperative is the bigger problem.\n
          \n
          Do you know of a cooperative that wants to issue bonds?
          """
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      12 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2289
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        +body: """
          Cooperatives don’t have to pay owners nor a management layer. Workers also shouldn’t slack. These advantages should overcome the benefits of exploitation.\n
          \n
          Ussr won space race and lost the microchip race. The availability of cad systems created a big advantage.\n
          \n
          Capitalism is not inherently self destructive. Exponential growth is only needed if all investors should succeed. That’s not necessary.\n
          \n
          Capitalism will thrive when times get tough because the majority will choose to compete instead of cooperate. Cooperatives could create space for those who want to cooperate.
          """
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          date: 2023-10-19 20:01:49.0 +02:00
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      19 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2293
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        +body: """
          The text is interesting but the author doesn’t seem to know that Smith’s invisible hand was invented to explain away the risk of outsourcing that was already known back then.\n
          \n
          But outsourcing is not bad. It spreads wealth globally. It’s interesting that you argue for isolation when communism usually is a global approach. That’s the exploitation I was hinting at. You want to keep ‘your’ resources instead of sharing them with the world. But even if you do, look at China’s history to know the problems that will come with that strategy.\n
          \n
          Do you remember the end of the text? That virtualization will make any revolution unnecessary. If you want communist relations, you better come up with something new if you don’t want to find a new way to have working cooperatives.
          """
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2345
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        +body: """
          It’s interesting that 3 people seem to disagree with you without telling you why. I also would like to know why they reject your detailed comment.\n
          \n
          Unfortunately I cannot agree with you about my lack of knowledge. I believe in cooperatives despite the valid problems that you have mentioned.\n
          \n
          If the capital class turns full fascism to destroy cooperatives then you have your revolution. But for capitalism, cooperatives are just another member of the capital owning class. Everybody wants a monopoly but not everybody gets it.\n
          \n
          The key problem is the reserve army of labor. If cooperatives show some restraint and don’t destroy labor market rates by cornering markets themselves and distributing that surplus, then capitalism can continue uninterrupted. Not everybody wants to participate in discussions as much as cooperatives require.\n
          \n
          If everybody wants to be a socialist then cooperatives should even create incentives to maintain capitalism. That’s where I lack knowledge. I don’t see how value can be determined without competition. Do we want a society without value?\n
          \n
          Let the capitalists have their boats. You need people who dedicate their lives to business processes. There is enough value created when there is a choice to work in a socialist cooperative. Communism is not only prevented by capitalists but also by the people themselves who don’t vote differently. Capitalists work with those weaknesses while communists hope that they are not a problem.
          """
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      7 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2066
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        +body: "Why do cooperatives need a management layer? Does communism need management?"
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      17 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2120
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        +body: "The other text mentioned the state machine. Do communists distinguish between the necessities of that state machine and the capitalist class’ dictatorship? The repressive capitalist state, how much is it just a consequence of the authority of the state machine?"
        +lang: "en"
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      5 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2227
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        +body: """
          The standard of living erodes in the West because resources are starting to be shared globally. A communist revolution would have even less resources unless there is a willingness to continue exploitation.\n
          \n
          Even if the revolution comes and currently big cooperatives are bound to be destroyed, why not start a small cooperative restaurant now?
          """
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        -id: 63191
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      6 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2459
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        +body: """
          We simply talk about different things. Initial funding comes with different risks.\n
          \n
          I think established cooperatives should issue bonds for expansion.\n
          \n
          New cooperatives cannot issue bonds because nobody can judge the risk. They have to do a startup and sell shares in a company that owns the assets. But why should the founders limit themselves and do the opposite of Zuckerberg and give their influence away by just owning one vote in the participating cooperative?
          """
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        -id: 54983
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      4 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2103
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        +body: """
          The difference to regular businesses is that management as a class doesn’t require higher compensation. Similarly, the owners of the cooperative don’t want to be compensated when they don’t want to be part of the capitalist class.\n
          \n
          This, together with the members being motivated workers, gives cooperatives room to compete with regular businesses.
          """
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        +body: "Investors want to make money above all. You can issue bonds with favorable interest rates as long as you have a solid business."
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        +body: """
          If native Americans claim every land taken by capitalists, how much is left for communism?\n
          \n
          For China, you have to know that they burned their blue water navy before European traders arrived. Their choice of isolation is the origin of their past losses. That was the context of my argument about the problems of isolation.\n
          \n
          You cannot expect to have a communist revolution in America with the world just watching.\n
          \n
          I don’t get your argument about communist relations in China. If China hasn’t increased extreme poverty headcount, how is that good enough?
          """
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        +body: """
          Thanks for the high quality references.\n
          \n
          The article here nicely stresses that there is only one way to communism and that there can even ony be one party. That’s true in theory, but a single party can make a mistake in implementing communism so that it would be a valid option to have various parties each representing one approach to communism among which the population has to choose.\n
          \n
          Likewise I think that requiring the destruction of state to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat is a nice theory but in reality, everybody in the state administration is proletarian, if we identify everybody but the billionaires as proletarian. Otherwise, the state would collapse because nobody with an education would be able to participate in the administration.\n
          \n
          You argue that there were successful communist revolutions. But those were only starting to implement communism since there hasn’t been a place with communism yet.\n
          \n
          My point of view is that there is no need for the dictatorship of the proletariat to create a place for communist relations. A cooperative can be such a place. Instead of having to wait for a revolution, communist and socialists could live in the reality of their preferred relations right now.\n
          \n
          Thus it doesn’t matter how many times people failed. People constantly start small businesses. Communists must have the resources to do that, too. Run a restaurant as a cooperative and expand it. This creates the resources to create more advanced cooperatives. Without going full oppressive, the capitalist class cannot do much to prevent such a cooperative.\n
          \n
          The problems that will arise will show the real problems of communism. Without an army to suppress dissidents, a cooperative has to deal with those problems. To me, that’s a better way to figure out communism than to wait for a revolution.
          """
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          It’s not new but also not tried in a convincing way.\n
          \n
          I believe that it is possible and that it’s worth trying until a working combination is found.
          """
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      16 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1404
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        +body: "What can you do with a communist revolution that you cannot do with cooperatives, apart from using violence?"
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      9 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2464
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        +body: "Ok, you were convinced. I mean the search for how to finance cooperatives should only be done when investors don’t hesitate to buy cooperative bonds."
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      18 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2021
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        +body: """
          You can’t tell because I am arguing.for a position that communists somehow want to ignore.\n
          \n
          For a communist revolution today the means of production are already necessary. Russia and China were possible because they were not industrialized.\n
          \n
          Are there capitalist relations within a cooperative? If not then why do you need a revolution when everything is already there?
          """
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      10 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1625
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        +body: """
          Or cooperatives don’t issue bonds because they believe that nobody will buy them.\n
          \n
          It’s the perfect investment for people who don’t want to participate in the usual capitalism.
          """
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      20 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2278
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        +body: """
          There is implicit isolation when resources should remain the same for American workers. When you have global communism, resources would be shared which means there is significantly less available.\n
          \n
          But when capitalism collapses, will there be communism or will there be wars redistributing resources? That’s what I meant with the expectation that the world will not just watch.\n
          \n
          The Chinese reduction of poverty, I got that wrong. I thought China kept their number of people in extreme poverty. But since they reduced that number, how is that article an argument against the spread of wealth by outsourcing? China receives most of the outsourcing and thus received most of the wealth. Other countries just increased their population which keeps the number of people in powerty the same.\n
          \n
          From my point of view you are stuck in a desire to keep capitalism as bad as possible so that the communist revolution happens as soon as possible. But capitalism isn’t the single source of evil and actually has positive outcomes.\n
          \n
          Take that outsourcing text. It tells you that capitalists don’t want to invest into capital intensive businesses, which is funny by itself. We started with cooperatives that should issue bonds. Don’t you see the opportunity that capitalist could support cooperatives to run those businesses?\n
          \n
          I know, I should do it myself. But I am more the capital relations kind of person which makes it very difficult for me to run a cooperative. All I can do is tell you that there is an opportunity.
          """
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    -id: 5468
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     …2
  }
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  +body: """
    What I meant with the lack of industrialization is that those revolutions could be fought with rifles. Today you need tanks and drones. Any revolution is interrupted by cutting global supply lines.\n
    \n
    Cooperatives don’t have to be dominant. It could be that people prefer to work in classical hierarchies. There should just be so many cooperatives that whoever wants to live a socialist life can find a place to do so.\n
    \n
    I indeed believe that revolution is not needed. There is no unified capital owning class. If you don’t change the political system and let them have their power, why should they waste resources on fighting cooperatives?
    """
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
89 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
90 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
91 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1558
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
92 DENIED moderate 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS DENIED 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
93 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
94 DENIED moderate 
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
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 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
95 DENIED edit 
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    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1697549437
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://slrpnk.net/post/3138107"
    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697463037 {#2673
      date: 2023-10-16 15:30:37.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    So all the clever squirrels die of malnutrition?\n
    \n
    Makes me wonder which mechanism has limited human intelligence.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 3
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1697471284 {#1562
    date: 2023-10-16 17:48:04.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1556 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1555 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1620 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1604 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1619 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
  -id: 52647
  -bodyTs: "'clever':4 'die':6 'human':16 'intellig':17 'limit':15 'make':9 'malnutrit':8 'mechan':13 'squirrel':5 'wonder':11"
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  +downVotes: 0
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697470340 {#1565
    date: 2023-10-16 17:32:20.0 +02:00
  }
  +"title": 52647
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
96 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1554
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1558
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2670 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2765 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2764 …}
    +slug: "Look-a-keystone-species"
    +title: "Look, a keystone species"
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/13ade98e-91b0-4b54-8a3f-91808a71b4c9.webp"
    +body: null
    +type: "link"
    +lang: "en"
    +isOc: false
    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 34
    +favouriteCount: 1232
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    +lastActive: DateTime @1697567714 {#2734
      date: 2023-10-17 20:35:14.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +tags: null
    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2763 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2770 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2766 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2769 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2772 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2774 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#1554}
    ]
    -id: 5731
    -titleTs: "'keyston':3 'look':1 'speci':4"
    -bodyTs: null
    +cross: false
    +upVotes: 0
    +downVotes: 0
    +ranking: 1697549437
    +visibility: "visible             "
    +apId: "https://slrpnk.net/post/3138107"
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697463037 {#2673
      date: 2023-10-16 15:30:37.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: null
  +root: null
  +body: """
    So all the clever squirrels die of malnutrition?\n
    \n
    Makes me wonder which mechanism has limited human intelligence.
    """
  +lang: "en"
  +isAdult: false
  +favouriteCount: 3
  +score: 0
  +lastActive: DateTime @1697471284 {#1562
    date: 2023-10-16 17:48:04.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +tags: null
  +mentions: [
    "@Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1556 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1555 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1620 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1604 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1619 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1701 …}
  -id: 52647
  -bodyTs: "'clever':4 'die':6 'human':16 'intellig':17 'limit':15 'make':9 'malnutrit':8 'mechan':13 'squirrel':5 'wonder':11"
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  +downVotes: 0
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  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697470340 {#1565
    date: 2023-10-16 17:32:20.0 +02:00
  }
  +"title": 52647
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
97 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
98 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2745 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "The-Modern-Worker-Enjoying-His-Liberty"
  +title: "The Modern Worker Enjoying His Liberty"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4415c28-c411-40ed-a6db-63805c275b38.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 31
  +favouriteCount: 475
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1697654094 {#2794
    date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2802 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2804 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2806 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2808 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2810 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1703
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1669 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1669 …}
      +body: "Start creating it"
      +lang: "en"
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      +favouriteCount: 1
      +score: 0
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        date: 2023-10-16 09:39:15.0 +02:00
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        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@bigboopballs@hexbear.net"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1678 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1672 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1674 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1665 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1581 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
      -id: 51919
      -bodyTs: "'creat':2 'start':1"
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697441955 {#1437
        date: 2023-10-16 09:39:15.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 51919
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
      +body: "It’s interesting that parents prefer to maintain their own space."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697654094 {#2079
        date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
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      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@floofloof@lemmy.ca"
        "@Squirrel@thelemmy.club"
        "@woodgen@lemm.ee"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2077 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2063 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2064 …}
      -id: 57471
      -bodyTs: "'interest':3 'maintain':8 'parent':5 'prefer':6 'space':11"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697654094 {#2084
        date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 57471
    }
  ]
  -id: 5618
  -titleTs: "'enjoy':4 'liberti':6 'modern':2 'worker':3"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1697493988
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6539838"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697407588 {#2782
    date: 2023-10-16 00:06:28.0 +02:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
99 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2745 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "The-Modern-Worker-Enjoying-His-Liberty"
  +title: "The Modern Worker Enjoying His Liberty"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4415c28-c411-40ed-a6db-63805c275b38.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 31
  +favouriteCount: 475
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1697654094 {#2794
    date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2802 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2804 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2806 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2808 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2810 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1703
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1669 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1669 …}
      +body: "Start creating it"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697441955 {#1455
        date: 2023-10-16 09:39:15.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@bigboopballs@hexbear.net"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1678 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1672 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1674 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1665 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1581 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
      -id: 51919
      -bodyTs: "'creat':2 'start':1"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
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      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697441955 {#1437
        date: 2023-10-16 09:39:15.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 51919
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
      +body: "It’s interesting that parents prefer to maintain their own space."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
      +score: 0
      +lastActive: DateTime @1697654094 {#2079
        date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
      }
      +ip: null
      +tags: null
      +mentions: [
        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@floofloof@lemmy.ca"
        "@Squirrel@thelemmy.club"
        "@woodgen@lemm.ee"
        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2083 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2085 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2062 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2077 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2063 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2064 …}
      -id: 57471
      -bodyTs: "'interest':3 'maintain':8 'parent':5 'prefer':6 'space':11"
      +ranking: 0
      +commentCount: 0
      +upVotes: 0
      +downVotes: 0
      +visibility: "visible             "
      +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/comment/5009729"
      +editedAt: null
      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697654094 {#2084
        date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 57471
    }
  ]
  -id: 5618
  -titleTs: "'enjoy':4 'liberti':6 'modern':2 'worker':3"
  -bodyTs: null
  +cross: false
  +upVotes: 0
  +downVotes: 0
  +ranking: 1697493988
  +visibility: "visible             "
  +apId: "https://lemmy.ml/post/6539838"
  +editedAt: null
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697407588 {#2782
    date: 2023-10-16 00:06:28.0 +02:00
  }
  +__isInitialized__: true
   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
100 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2745 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
  +slug: "The-Modern-Worker-Enjoying-His-Liberty"
  +title: "The Modern Worker Enjoying His Liberty"
  +url: "https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f4415c28-c411-40ed-a6db-63805c275b38.jpeg"
  +body: null
  +type: "image"
  +lang: "en"
  +isOc: false
  +hasEmbed: true
  +commentCount: 31
  +favouriteCount: 475
  +score: 0
  +isAdult: false
  +sticky: false
  +lastActive: DateTime @1697654094 {#2794
    date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
  }
  +ip: null
  +adaAmount: 0
  +tags: null
  +mentions: null
  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2802 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2804 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2806 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2808 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2810 …}
  +children: [
    1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1703
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1669 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#1669 …}
      +body: "Start creating it"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 1
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        date: 2023-10-16 09:39:15.0 +02:00
      }
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        "@yogthos@lemmy.ml"
        "@bigboopballs@hexbear.net"
      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1678 …}
      +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1672 …}
      +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1674 …}
      +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1665 …}
      +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1581 …}
      +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1584 …}
      -id: 51919
      -bodyTs: "'creat':2 'start':1"
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      +downVotes: 0
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      +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697441955 {#1437
        date: 2023-10-16 09:39:15.0 +02:00
      }
      +"title": 51919
    }
    0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078
      +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2097 …}
      +body: "It’s interesting that parents prefer to maintain their own space."
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
      +favouriteCount: 0
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        "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
101 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
102 DENIED moderate 
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2745 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "The-Modern-Worker-Enjoying-His-Liberty"
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     …2
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"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
103 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1703
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2745 …}
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     …2
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
104 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1703
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     …2
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
105 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
106 DENIED moderate 
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2808 …}
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
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          "@bigboopballs@hexbear.net"
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        +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1665 …}
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        +"title": 51919
      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078}
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697407588 {#2782
      date: 2023-10-16 00:06:28.0 +02:00
    }
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     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2076 …}
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    "@woodgen@lemm.ee"
    "@trailing9@lemmy.ml"
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  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697654094 {#2084
    date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
  }
  +"title": 57471
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
107 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2745 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
    +slug: "The-Modern-Worker-Enjoying-His-Liberty"
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    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2799 …}
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2808 …}
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    +children: [
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        +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
        +image: null
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      }
      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078}
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      date: 2023-10-16 00:06:28.0 +02:00
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     …2
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
108 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1553
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2180 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2745 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2696 …}
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      date: 2023-10-18 20:34:54.0 +02:00
    }
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      1 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#1703
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        +image: null
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      0 => App\Entity\EntryComment {#2078}
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      date: 2023-10-16 00:06:28.0 +02:00
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     …2
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
109 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
110 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1883
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2670 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2669 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2764 …}
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        date: 2023-10-17 21:42:51.0 +02:00
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
111 DENIED edit 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1883
  +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2670 …}
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2669 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2764 …}
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    date: 2023-10-22 07:06:33.0 +02:00
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  +ip: null
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  +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2781 …}
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  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2792 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1407
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1883 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391 …}
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      +body: "> I was nowhere near *that* cow!"
      +lang: "en"
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
112 DENIED moderate 
Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1883
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  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2669 …}
  +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2764 …}
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  +title: "Huzzah!"
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  }
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  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2790 …}
  +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2792 …}
  +children: [
    App\Entity\EntryComment {#1407
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      +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1883 …2}
      +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
      +image: null
      +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391 …}
      +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2389 …}
      +body: "> I was nowhere near *that* cow!"
      +lang: "en"
      +isAdult: false
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      ]
      +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2369 …}
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   …2
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
113 DENIED ROLE_USER 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
114 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1407
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  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1883
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2670 …}
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    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2669 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2764 …}
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    }
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    -id: 5986
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      date: 2023-10-17 16:51:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
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    "@TheDankHold@kbin.social"
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  ]
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  }
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    date: 2023-10-17 21:42:51.0 +02:00
  }
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
115 DENIED edit 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1407
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1883
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2670 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2669 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2764 …}
    +slug: "Huzzah"
    +title: "Huzzah!"
    +url: "https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/92b9c5f7-c6bd-47ca-9b8f-a84e71f6f699.webp"
    +body: null
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    +lang: "en"
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    +hasEmbed: true
    +commentCount: 20
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    +sticky: false
    +lastActive: DateTime @1697951193 {#2776
      date: 2023-10-22 07:06:33.0 +02:00
    }
    +ip: null
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    +mentions: null
    +comments: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2781 …}
    +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2784 …}
    +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2786 …}
    +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2788 …}
    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2790 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2792 …}
    +children: [
      App\Entity\EntryComment {#1407}
    ]
    -id: 5986
    -titleTs: "'huzzah':1"
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    +ranking: 1697640686
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    +editedAt: null
    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697554286 {#2742
      date: 2023-10-17 16:51:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391 …}
  +root: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2389 …}
  +body: "> I was nowhere near *that* cow!"
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    date: 2023-10-17 21:42:51.0 +02:00
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    "@bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works"
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    "@Vlyn@lemmy.zip"
    "@TheDankHold@kbin.social"
    "@Jerb322@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2369 …}
  +nested: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2392 …}
  +votes: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2395 …}
  +reports: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1384 …}
  +favourites: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1383 …}
  +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#1405 …}
  -id: 55161
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    date: 2023-10-17 21:43:34.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697571771 {#1908
    date: 2023-10-17 21:42:51.0 +02:00
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  +"title": 55161
}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
116 DENIED moderate 
App\Entity\EntryComment {#1407
  +user: App\Entity\User {#263 …}
  +entry: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Entry {#1883
    +user: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\User {#2670 …}
    +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
    +image: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Image {#2669 …}
    +domain: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Domain {#2764 …}
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    +title: "Huzzah!"
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      date: 2023-10-22 07:06:33.0 +02:00
    }
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    +notifications: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2790 …}
    +badges: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2792 …}
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    ]
    -id: 5986
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    +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697554286 {#2742
      date: 2023-10-17 16:51:26.0 +02:00
    }
    +__isInitialized__: true
     …2
  }
  +magazine: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\Magazine {#1583 …}
  +image: null
  +parent: Proxies\__CG__\App\Entity\EntryComment {#2391 …}
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    date: 2023-10-17 21:42:51.0 +02:00
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    "@Vlyn@lemmy.zip"
    "@TheDankHold@kbin.social"
    "@Jerb322@lemmy.world"
  ]
  +children: Doctrine\ORM\PersistentCollection {#2369 …}
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  -id: 55161
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    date: 2023-10-17 21:43:34.0 +02:00
  }
  +createdAt: DateTimeImmutable @1697571771 {#1908
    date: 2023-10-17 21:42:51.0 +02:00
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}
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
117 DENIED ROLE_ADMIN 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
Show voter details
118 DENIED ROLE_MODERATOR 
null
 
"Scheb\TwoFactorBundle\Security\Authorization\Voter\TwoFactorInProgressVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"Symfony\Component\Security\Core\Authorization\Voter\RoleHierarchyVoter"
 ACCESS DENIED 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\EntryVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MagazineVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageThreadVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\MessageVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\NotificationVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\OAuth2UserConsentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostCommentVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\PostVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN 
"App\Security\Voter\UserVoter"
 ACCESS ABSTAIN
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