Vespair

@Vespair@lemm.ee

you’re probably an idiot. I know I am.

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Vespair,

Bro here is the type to get severe triggered by the phrase “trigger warning,” which never fails to make me laugh.

Others in the world aren’t obligated to cater to your personal sensibilities and you’re welcome to scroll past when you dislike something

Vespair,

Yeah, Jenny is a severely flawed character who makes some bad choices.

That what makes her a good character.

I feel like in the past 10 years or so we’ve seen a subtle shift where we now expect characters to be held to standards higher than we hold our real neighbors. As if art has stopped imitating life but instead now art projects a sterilized or idealized version of the world. Like now when a character is flawed, they aren’t just flawed, they’re wrong, and personally I think that’s wrong.

Not every character in every media is meant to be a role model, and there are stories and lessons to be gleaned even from those who don’t live up to idealized standards.

And yes, I know this is a shitpost; chill out, we can still have a discussion even if it results from a joke

Vespair, (edited )

Subtext. This meme isn’t about the image, it’s about the culture upon which it is commenting. And a large reaction to that culture is beyond discouraging of age-gap relationships, it’s prohibitive of them. This reaction wants to redefine adulthood as post 25, label anyone above 25 who shows interest in those under as automatically and inherently predatory (as opposed to potentially predatory), and in doing so severely infantilizes anyone under 25 as “incomplete” adults, as if adulthood is some kind of clear journey with a specific and obvious destination, who they deem incapable of evaluating risks and circumstances and making autonomous choices.

Vespair, (edited )

If you thought I was defending conservatives, you’re wrong. There’s nuance to this; the topic is sexual dynamics but the purpose is dominance. This is a conservative kind of principle because it’s about limiting autonomy of consenting adults, enforcing social morals, and boogyman logic. We should be embracing and striving for a better, freer, more autonomous world, where everyone, women included, are empowered rather than limited, not just settling for a slightly preferable version of the patriarchy.

Which means embracing a nuanced world. Which is why I said acknowledge and even warn against the potential dangers of severe age-gap relationships; we don’t have to be blind to real world dangers, but that we shouldn’t let fear of those dangers drive us into blind ignorance again or else we’re just repeating the same cycle. Hence the trojan horse. We get better when we accept difficult concepts rather than accept simplified extractions for the masses.

edit: just in case my position is somehow still unclear, yes I’m using conservative as effectively synonymous with “bad” here. I’ll consider caring when they consider better conduct and positions.

Vespair, (edited )

Yeah, which falls under the risks I mentioned not t9 be ignorant to.

But also, sometimes you’re a 23 year old who gets put on assignment at work with a 31 year old coworker and are surprised how well you hit it off.

My point wasn’t “yay age gap relationships!,” it was to evaluate the world around you with the necessary nuanced rather than reductively.

Vespair,

Well-stated 👍

Vespair,

Can you honestly say that at 25? At 35?

Why do you believe the period of intellectual growth should exist only throughout “childhood” and not beyond?

Vespair,

It sounds to me like that’s an issue of predatory lending and business practices; why don’t we attempt addressing those issues rather than arbitrarily deeming people too underdeveloped to understand such things for literally a third of their estimated life-span

Vespair,

I fully agree, and would argue that this is all part of the infantilization efforts I’m describing.

Vespair,

Because just because you’re old enough to make your own choices, it doesn’t mean your choices are good.

And does this suddenly stop being true at 30? At 50? Fallibility is a human condition that extends well into adulthood.

And from the other side, just because it’s legal doesn’t mean it’s right.

At no point have I been discussing the legality of anything. Legality is a separate conversation from morality, I agree.

Lots of older guys who date much younger women are very predatory and manipulative.

Yes, which I acknowledged, and even implicitly expressed the value in being aware of this fact. That cars have potential to result in fatal accidents is not good reason to fully discourage the use of automobiles, and the same logic applies here.

Vespair,

The sophistication and poise that can come with age is more attractive to me

There are sophisticated 20 year olds and there boorish 60 year olds.

The dichotomy you describe isn’t real, it’s projected onto these women.

Vespair, (edited )

Poise and sophistication is something that often comes with age regardless of gender.

Relative poise and sophistication. Nobody exists in a vacuum, and while yes I do agree that people generally progress and refine themselves as they age, there are hundreds of other factors that I would argue are vastly more relevant than age. It’s not hard to find a 20 year old from a nurturing environment or conversely a 20 year old who survived difficult and grounding circumstances either of which may display vastly more sophistication and poise than a spoiled 60 year old raised in comfort and wealth who never had to challenge any of their expectations.

While some trend might exist between the two things, a) I think it’s wildly overblown, b) it’s nowhere near absolute enough to establish rules based upon it, and c) regardless it’s an aside from what you claim to be after anyway. If you want a partner with sophistication and poise, then seek one with those qualities, don’t just project them onto him/her/them because you assume they should have them based on age. If you’ve got a craving for apple you shouldn’t pick up a pomegranate just because you know the food you like is colored red.

Vespair,

To be honest I thought we were sort of discussing in generalities rather than intending any of it to read as directed at you personally. I apologize, I wasn’t attempting to accuse you specifically of anything. I meant we, as a society, project these ideas, and to go further I’ll admit it’s sloppy word choice as what I mean is I guess more closely “presume to have” rather than “project.” Again, I did not mean any specific insult or accusation to be directed at you and apologize for presenting my point in a way that could be read as such.

Vespair,

I guess all I can say to that is that while I try best to communicate my meaning clearly, I am a fallible human who will sometimes fall short of perfect wording. Thank you for reading my words with an open mind and inquiring for more information where necessary rather than jumping to conclusions, I guess.

Vespair,

I agree that the way we socially condition and, more importantly, hold men accountable are the real issues, which only reinforces my point. If the problem is men rather than age gaps, why disparage age gaps and not male behaviors instead? It’s like trying to focus on getting the blood stain out of a carpet while somebody has an open wound on their arm and continues bleeding out; it’s focusing on the wrong part of what’s wrong in the scenario.

Vespair,

This meme is so terrible it’s almost impressive

Vespair,

A filter is an entirely reasonable request

Vespair,

Except this is all predicated on caring about other people’s opinions on your interests, which is foolish to begin with.

If you like something, like it because you like it. Let however other people process the thing be how they process it; it doesn’t have to have any impact on how you process it.

Vespair,

This. OnlyFans is the “farm to table” of the porn industry and people feel differently about stealing from a small family farm than they do from Walmart.

Also, beyond just the guilt aspect, that same “farm to table” principle also means that a lot of people see OnlyFans as a fair and reasonable exchange with minimal unnecessary exploitation. Paying a major porn company feels scummy and gross and may make you feel complicit with the various evils of the industry; subbing to an OnlyFans can feel more like a donation to a creator who makes content you enjoy.

Vespair,

Good thing the force behind enforcing laws and charging people as criminals is famously good-natured and held to the highest of accountability standards to prevent any possible corruption!

Oh wait.

Vespair,

I don’t sports and even I’ve heard the tales of Lawrence The Bird

Vespair,

Before WoW I played Ultima Online, and the co-GMs of my UO guild were a couple that had only met online. About 6 months after I started playing, they had an in-game marriage, and then about 6 months later both moved to Las Vegas to buy a house together (I think they’d met in person once by this point). Under a year later, they were married in real life too. Last I heard, they were still together.

If you’re out there Ramirez and Azizza, I hope you’re still happy.

Post-internet life is a weird place.

Vespair,

As a man of class, I always write the actual word, okay, instead of “ok” like you Philistines

Vespair,

It’s like a Heathcliff crossover episode

Vespair,

ICQ days were good days

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