ram

ram, 1 year ago

• the entire contents of the article is listed in the text description
• "downvotes" don’t work on beehaw-hosted communities
• third bullet point

ram, 1 year ago

Uhm…

ram, 1 year ago

Hamas isn’t Palestine.

ram, 1 year ago

Both the Israeli government and Hamas are wrong and bad. The Israeli people and Palestinians are both indigenous to the land they share, and both have the right to live there. The median age of Palestine is under 20, the people many people in this thread are justifying the genocide of are majority children, because their parents have been killed by the Israel government in an apartheid state. The solution Netanyahu will take will be genocide of Palestinian people, when Hamas is to blame.

ram, 1 year ago

And we’ve seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you’re just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn’t commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?

ram, 1 year ago

Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.

My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.^[statista.com/…/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-…]

The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.

Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.^[www.hrw.org/…/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15] The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade. It’s one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There’s a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.^[aljazeera.com/…/what-is-gaza-strip-the-besieged-p…]

It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war

History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.

So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?

There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.

Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I’m not going to downplay that at all.

But we’re currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that’s held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu’s far-right government will come to is poised to be “The Final Solution”. There will be diplomacy. I’m not sure there’s even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.

So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?

I’m not arguing that I have all the answers, I’m arguing that the answer the world’s agreed upon is the wrong one.

That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.

If you’re defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?