did anyone else from the USA grow up being forced to say the pledge to the flag in school?

im 20 for reference. ever since i was a kid, up until hs, we were forced every morning to stand, look at the flag and hold our hearts and say:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

i didnt stand a single time because i disagreed with being forced, and i was berated by the teacher in front of everyone, and he threatened to kick me out of class if i ever did it again. i was about 11-12 then, it was 2015.

abff08f4813c,

This was very me

Semi-Hemi-Demigod,
@Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social avatar

I got sick of it and made up my own pledge:

I pledge my cheeses to the hag
of the untied snakes of harmonica
And to my public, the Richard Stans
One nation, under Zod, invisible
With liver, tea, and just us for all

Voyajer,
@Voyajer@kbin.social avatar

Forced? No. But I was was questioned or disciplined by a few teachers for not saying it.

milkytoast,
@milkytoast@kbin.social avatar

it's weird as fuck, and especially the "under god" part like the rest isn't all that terrible ig but why must u shove god into everything

wjrii,
@wjrii@kbin.social avatar

It was tacked on in the 50s (note how it kinda messes with the cadence) because of godless commies. There have been other little tweaks as well, some making it worse (e.g. "under god") and some better (abandoning the, herrrm, "Roman" salute). While always a bit weirdly nationalistic, the core of the modern pledge was written by a Christian Socialist and replaced one that was worse and more explicitly religious.

I guess it's not so weird that it exists and I assume many countries have some sort of boilerplate loyalty oath they can bust out as needed, but it's pretty messed up that it's mandatory for kids on a daily basis and fetishizes the flag as an object. I am quite fond of my country, and I think there are a lot of worse places to live, but our history is pretty messed up and our views on what exactly constitutes freedom and democracy are not unquestionable just because some clever provincial elites came up with a halfway workable system in the late 1700s. I suppose it's marginally better to build a national cult out of institutions and symbols than individuals, but it's still a terrible idea to treat patriotism like religious dogma.

frustratedphagocytosis,
@frustratedphagocytosis@kbin.social avatar

Starting September 12, 2001 it became mandatory in high school, with disciplinary action taken if you refused to stand during the pledge

Lilkev,
@Lilkev@kbin.social avatar

It happened every morning in my school, but we weren't forced. I would routinely just stay seated and not say the pledge, personally.

NotTheOnlyGamer,
@NotTheOnlyGamer@kbin.social avatar

I would never say forced - it's just normal practice, but abstention happened. Shared experience is a powerful uniting factor. Reinforced daily, even moreso. Every student remembered the Pledge itself and remembers seeing every other student doing it - regardless of race, creed, or color. We were all Americans. I remember the first times I saw someone not taking part, the first, it was for religious reasons; his parents were part of a religious group that wouldn't let them swear oaths or something like that. The second was much later, and it was how I found out that someone in my class was a resident alien.

It's obviously a stand-in for a religious prayer; I don't think anyone past 4th grade had any misconception about that. It's also a prayer of nationalism and loyalty to the country. If we could bring people back together like that still, it would help.

son_named_bort,

Yep, everyday K-12. We also had a moment of silence after the pledge, with the idea that kids would use that time to pray. Of course, nobody did because it was lame.

wjrii,
@wjrii@kbin.social avatar

I grew up in Florida and Tennessee in the 80s and 90s. It was definitely a daily thing, but very lax enforcement and I don't know that anybody would have made a huge stink about it even then. The duck and cover "tornado" drills were very real and very serious though.

QuinceDaPence,

We only had one teacher tell us we were required to (we were standing up just kinda mumbling it), the following class everyone just stayed seated and at least 3 of us had printouts in our backpacks confirming that it was a violation of the first amendment to require it.

He didn't even acknowledge it, knowing that teacher I imagine he looked it up right after and realized he was wrong.

We eventually resumed standing up but hands at our sides and silent.

Edit: if this is showing up as a reply to another comment, it was supposed to be a top level comment to the OP. Some weird stuff keeps happening with my comments but I'm not sure if it's just visual.

samyboy,

Non american here. I have a few questions.

  1. What exactly does it mean?
  2. What if you don't agree with it, for example the "under of god" part.
  3. Does it have a legal status? For example can you be arrested for not pleging allegiance, or failing to have pledged at some point in your life?
  4. What about freedom of speech? How can one force you to express yourself? I feel like freedom of speech goes both ways : I'd like to have the same freedom of "not speech" as well.
skulblaka,
@skulblaka@kbin.social avatar
  1. The Pledge of Allegiance was first created in 1892 to foster a sense of national unity. It was brainwashy even back then, especially having children recite it every morning, but it wasn't really intentionally malicious. It was intended to instill a sense of national fraternity in a fractured group of people, during a time that political tensions ran high and America was being filled with a large percentage of immigrants. Giving everyone an identity as Americans was important in moving the country forward at the time. That doesn't make it not nationalism, but at the time it was instituted I can understand where they were coming from.

Adding the "Under God" part and requiring it to be recited every morning before class wasn't instituted until 1954 during the Cold War era, when adults were worried that their children were commie spies. Their way of solving this was to shove Christianity and American Nationalism down the throats of everyone within earshot.

2,3,4. Via the Pledge's Wikipedia page:

In 1940, the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools, including the respondents in that case—Jehovah's Witnesses who considered the flag salute to be idolatry—could be compelled to swear the Pledge. In 1943, in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, the Supreme Court reversed its decision. Justice Robert H. Jackson, writing for the 6 to 3 majority, went beyond simply ruling in the precise matter presented by the case to say that public school students are not required to say the Pledge on narrow grounds, and asserted that such ideological dogmata are antithetical to the principles of the country, concluding with:

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us.

So as of current day, no, you cannot be compelled to stand and recite the Pledge. You WILL most likely receive nasty comments from your homeroom teacher, particularly if they are religious and/or older folks, and can be sent out of class to the principals office for basically any reason or no reason including this. It's against the law for the principal to leverage punishment against you for not reciting the pledge, but they can and will make your life very difficult if they feel like it without direct "punishment".

But in general, no, there is no legal punishment or precedent for someone who does not recite the pledge of allegiance. At worst, if you're accused of being a spy or of treason, it will be wielded as evidence that you are "un-American" and act as "proof" that you hate America. But it is not a punishable offense by itself.

acronymesis,
@acronymesis@kbin.social avatar

The long and short of it is that the pledge of allegiance is exactly what it says on the tin; you are pledging that your loyalty is to the flag (by proxy, to the United States). However, as a US citizen, one has a 1st amendment right that is supposed to protect you from being forced by the government to say the pledge (otherwise known as compelled speech). Constitutionally, you cannot be arrested or otherwise punished for not saying the pledge, or for expressing distaste for the pledge, leaving out the "under God" part while reciting the pledge, or even saying that you think the flag is nothing more than a nationalist propaganda symbol.

That all said, I feel like there is at least one or two stories a year where a student is accosted by a teacher because they refused to recite the pledge. Any teacher who does this is setting themselves and the school up for a lawsuit, as accosting/punishing a student for not reciting the pledge is flat out unconstitutional..

On a different note, as an American who grew up mindlessly citing the pledge throughout my K-12 years, it was a pretty harsh realization when I learned that this is essentially a kind of indoctrination. I honestly feel a bit gross when I go to my kid's school events and the first thing they do is trot out the flag and start the pledge. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a push to have it removed as a regular thing at public schools in the US (nor would I be surprised at a reactionary response from the "patriots" in our country if there was a movement against the pledge...).

judgeMental, (edited )
  1. As school children, we swore this oath. It describes loyalty to the flag and (more importantly) the nation and ideals that the flag represents.
  2. As a child, I would just be silent during the 'under god' part. No one noticed. If they had, there isn't really anything they could do about it.
  3. There have been lawsuits. Basically, you are not legally obligated to say it. There would be a lot of peer pressure to do so, because each of our school days would start with the whole class saying it.
  4. Again, it is controversial, but you are not technically forced to say it.

Here is a breakdown of what the pledge means:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America"
I swear loyalty to the flag
"and to the Republic for which it stands,"
and to the government it represents
"one Nation under God,"
a country guided by the Lord!
"indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"
united, with freedom and justice for everyone*

*terms and conditions apply

Technoguyfication,
@Technoguyfication@kbin.social avatar

No, there’s no legal requirements to say the pledge or anything. I’ve never seen it done outside of schools, it’s just a weird tradition that has been carried on.

In my high school nobody in my classes actually said it, but one of the teachers or the student council president would say it over the intercom (we didn’t even stand for it, usually just went back to our work while they talked).

As a younger child in elementary school I remember we were expected to say it, and I do remember a couple kids getting yelled at for not saying it (by the teacher, I don’t think there was any formal punishment). I know some Muslim children would say the whole thing and leave out the “under God” part.

I never paid much attention to it until I got older and realized how weird it was. I’m hoping it goes away eventually.

euphoria,
@euphoria@kbin.social avatar

1.it's exactly as it seems, its a pledge of devotion to your country and it's principles.
2. i didn't agree with it, i was berated for it, others didn't and nothing happens. it all depends on the situation
3. i did learn that it was made illegal to force anyone to stand in 1943, but many teachers and schools clearly didn't care or know. you cannot get in any legal trouble for not standing, you have the complete freedom to not stand or pledge ever, but that doesnt stop some peoples negative reactions when you exercise that right.
4. it does go both ways, but as i said in point 3, some people in charge didn't care. the teacher took advantage of the fact that i was a kid and he had authority over me, despite me being within my rights

MedicPigBabySaver,

From early on I remember skipping “god”. Guess I was atheist before I knew what that was.

distantorigin,

As a millennial that grew up in the early-to-mid 2000s, it was absolutely expected pre-middle school that we do this. Pretty gross.

andromedathecat,
@andromedathecat@kbin.social avatar

I was never forced which is kind of notable since I’m from Alabama. I think my school was terrified of getting slapped with a lawsuit.

Sorchist,

We did that in class, but only when I was a very little kid, like in elementary school in the 70s.

In retrospect, it's creepy, but by the time I was old enough that I might have questioned it, we weren't doing it anymore.

This Whitest Kids You Know video about it sums it up pretty well. (Although the dig at Ritalin at the end is kinda weird)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiCaqA0ngRc

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • AskKbin@kbin.social
  • localhost
  • All magazines
    •
    Loading…
    Loading the web debug toolbar…
    Attempt #