Framework vs Macbook laptop?

I apologise if this is the wrong community to post this in, I wasn’t sure which one was ideal.

I’m suffering a difficult decision of choosing between a Framework laptop or a Macbook Air (M1, 2020). I really like the ethical principles of Framework, i.e. you actually own it and can repair it any time, leading to an increased longevity. At the same time, I have heard people claim Macbook is superior in almost all aspects (especially battery life).

I know both Apple and Microsoft are greedy CorpGiants, but seeing as I have an iPhone, I figure it would be easier using a Mac? But then again, the prices really are not worth it, especially considering it costs a lot to repair them. I have 0 experience with Linux, and this computer will be used at school, so I suppose it stands between macOS and Windows.

I guess I just want some advice? Or some guidance and comparisons. Is 8GB enough for a Framework laptop? The 16GB version costs nearly as much as the Mac I’m looking at, hence my hesitance. If anybody has some experience using Framework and / or Macbook, I would love to hear about it. What are some pros and cons? Which people are better off with FW and Mac respectively?

Thank you!

*Edit, forgot to mention: I need a Swedish keyboard on the computer, and Framework apparently only offers English. This is the largest obstacle preventing me from leaning towards FW.

u_tamtam,
@u_tamtam@programming.dev avatar

According to www.notebookcheck.net , a framework 13 with a Ryzen 7840U will run out of battery 22% faster than the macbook but will outperform the macbook by 85% on some benchmarks. I wouldn’t pick the mac.

clark,
@clark@midwest.social avatar

Would you recommend the Intel or AMD version? I’m not very updated on what distinguishes the AMD.

Blisterexe,

AMD is as fast in cpu, faster in GPU, and has(much) better battery life. At least until framework gets meteor lake

aesc,
@aesc@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I think you want the MacBook. I like the ethical principles behind Framework too, but they come with a learning curve. You might only save money if you fix it yourself, are you willing to learn to do that? It will have to run Windows, do you know whether it will run Windows 11, will you have you install and configure it yourself, if so do you know how to do that?

Meanwhile, if you buy a MacBook it will last a good seven or eight years before you need to replace it, at least if you get the 16 GB of RAM (but maybe 8 is enough, 8 has been the standard for like a decade already, maybe software developers finally reached the point where their objective is to do more with less). Sure sometimes Apple comes up with bad hardware like the butterfly-switch keyboard but if you’re getting hardware that’s basically the same as last year check out the news and reviews, anything that bad and people will be talking about it. Also if you buy a MacBook, Apple tries its best that everything just works. The easiest learning curve there is. You may pay a premium in price up front but over seven or eight years you might end up spending less.

For the first year of ownership, if it ever has a problem (that wasn’t clearly caused by you dropping it) you can make an appointment to drop it off at an Apple Store and just pick it up when they fix it. You can buy AppleCare to extend that year into three years. If you’re a resident college student your school’s computer support center might be an authorized repair center and fix it. With a MacBook you are unlikely to incur any repair costs ever so long as you don’t drop the damn thing.

So you have to decide what sort of person you are. I’ve been building and taking apart computers for years, I’ve been a Linux user since 1999, and sometimes I want a project like a Framework to tinker with, but sometimes (especially when I went to college) I want something dependable that just works without having to fuss with it, and that’s Apple. That’s what you’re ultimately choosing, and whether that’s worth the (up-front, at least) price premium.

Potatos_are_not_friends,

You nailed it here. It’s all about the willingness of the user to maintain it.

The integration part from OP: I don’t understand why anybody wants to be locked into a single ecosystem. If the company pivots/does something weird, you have a LOT of history you have to untangle. Google for instance.

But in spite of that, Macs just work without fuss. And I say this as a mac hater for years, and now forced to use one for work.

aesc,
@aesc@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Framework hasn’t been around that long, and is more likely to go out of business than Google or Apple. Even if the design of its parts is open-source (I’m not sure whether they are), you’d have to find someplace to make the parts for you. Also how many businesses have started with open-source stuff then taken over by people who in order to make them profitable make them go proprietary?

some_guy,

On the integration bit, I love that I can copy a URL on my phone and paste it into my browser on my Mac. I love that I can copy a meme on my Mac and paste it into a messaging app on my phone.

aesc,
@aesc@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Yeah, I got a Windows laptop and couldn’t do that as easily anymore and like, it really bothered me that this service that I’d only been using for a few years that everyone else gets along without was suddenly unavailable. It’s like parking at a parking meter and needing quarters now.

NightAuthor,

btw you can get apple care indefinitely if you pay annually. I’ve decided throught his mechanism I’ll essentially lease my macbook. Paying $100/year for the peace of mind that they’ll fix anything thats wrong with the laptop until I decide to ditch it. Its probably worth keeping an eye on the used market to decide when its economically optimal to just drop the applecare and just replace the laptop in the event of it needing to be repaired.

Worth noting, you may have to be a stern self-advocate to get certain things fixed because they will sometimes pull some bullshit excuse that its not covered under applecare/warranty because of xyz, and xyz isn’t even true (see Louis Rossmann / CBC News videos)

JungleJim,

So you pay extra for your laptop, then pay for another third of a laptop or so, before you have to fight with somebody on the phone to get what you paid for? That’s certainly a plan.

NightAuthor,

See my other comment for more context, I’m not saying it’s a good thing, or advocating for people to do it, but it is what I do… for reasons.

JungleJim,

Fair enough. Have a good day Internet Friend

NightAuthor, (edited )

No YOU’RE an internet friend!

NightAuthor,

I have the m1 macbook air, and its wonderfully performant and long battery life for how I use it… mostly just word-processing and web-browsing.

But the repair concerns are legit, when I decided to get the macbook, I decided I was going to play apples game and opted to get their service plan. I’ve had apple care+ on a tablet before and their service is great when you don’t have to pay their ridiculous repair fees. So at a rate of $100 per year, I’m essentially leasing my laptop after I bought it. I have it automatically backed up to my home server, in the event that one of their stupid engineering designs destroys my data (See Louis Rossmann videos).

Idk if I’d ever really recommend anyone get a macbook if they don’t need to, personally, the battery life and standby time are just killer features for me. I have ADHD, and frequently forget to charge my laptop… if I’m not on my meds and I pick up my laptop to do something and its dead… I’m not going to do that thing. With the macbook, I make next to no conscious effort to keep it charged. If it’s under ~20% and I happen to be near a charger, I’ll charge it. And thats the extent of me managing the battery.

My wife on the other hand, her windows machine (and most seem to have this problem as I understand) is always dead. She’s resorted to putting it into full hybernation mode (significantly slower to wake up) and even then, it somehow seems to still lose quite a bit of battery in between uses.

Aside from that, its light, small, its sturdy. I use windows for work and for gaming on my desktop, so I’ve got not strong aversion to it, its pretty much just the battery life and standby thats the killer feature for me. So… yeah, thats my take. If the battery situation isn’t a big deal for you, go for the framework. They seem like a solid company, making solid laptops, that are easily and affordably repairable and upgradable.

dual_sport_dork,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

But the repair concerns are legit

Speaking as someone who has disassembled multiple Macbook Airs from multiple generations: Fuck working on Macbook Airs, and Macs in general.

I personally will never buy an Apple product at any price for any purpose, for a multitude of reasons. My preferences aside, if you ever want to work on your own machine Apple is objectively the wrong answer. OP is really looking at two machines that are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum, here.

v_krishna,
@v_krishna@lemmy.ml avatar

Do people really do home repair or upgraded on laptops in 2024 though? Desktops sure, but I haven’t found laptops to be particularly amenable to home upgrade since the early 2000s.

dual_sport_dork,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

Never mind upgrading, if you need to repair your Macbook – replace a busted screen, swap out one of their famously shitty keyboards or trackpads, etc. – you’re in for a rough time.

JohnDClay,

Frameworks yes, but that’s pretty much the only ones you can nowadays. I do little things like replace the screen or barrel jacks on my family’s laptops, but that’s about all you can do.

mundane,

8GB is not enough memory these days. But you can always add memory later.

betz24,

Not for the MacBook, it’s soldered in. So he will have to upgrade the whole thing. The M1 is one of the best laptops I’ve used (for work), but you have to choose the right specs at the beginning, otherwise you will be in a pickle.

mundane,

You are correct, I was thinking of the framework, but I didn’t mention that in my comment.

EffortlessEffluvium,

It’s more than soldered in—it’s in the actual processor. It’s why you can’t desolder the RAM and replace it, even if you were that talented. It’s the downside to SOC. I hope that the new RAM technology called CAMM works out and becomes popular enough to fix the SOC trend.

some_guy,

True on Framework (add more later), not on MacBook Air. But even though my main machine now has 64GB, I found my first-gen MacBook Air (2020) was great with 16GB. However, depends what you need to throw at it.

Baaron87,

One other thing that you should consider is what kind of software you know you need to run. I did read in the other comments that you mentioned Microsoft Office. If you need a native installed version, that’s where Mac or Windows will be stronger options.

That said, I have both a 2017 MacBook Pro as well as a 1st generation Framework laptop. Between the two of them, I prefer the Framework for a wide variety of reasons. Repairability and upgradability being major factors.

If you opt to use the framework laptop, I know the keyboard can be swapped out for a different language one. After looking at all the different keyboards they have, they don’t have Swedish as an option, but as an alternative, you could always get one of the blank ones and add the lettering down the line. Each operating system can change different keyboard formats on the fly, so even if you used a standard English QWERTY one, it could be switched to DVORAK in the OS and function like it. This should be the same for a Swedish language one if I’m not mistaken.

Finally for operating systems, if you need specific apps, Windows will likely give you the most compatibility with whatever you need to work with. Linux on the other hand is what I personally use and recommend if you’re willing to try something else. If you do, Linux Mint is the easiest one to jump into for a wide variety of reasons. And as a side note, you can also dual boot, using Windows for your studies and Linux for everything else.

I know this was a longer response but I hope that gives you some insight for your situation. Good luck!

clark,
@clark@midwest.social avatar

Thank you for the response, I appreciate it! I’m not sure I understand the paragraph about the keyboard, however; do you mind explaining how switching the format will affect it?

32b99410_da5b, (edited )

The letters printed on the keys actually don’t matter.

When you install an OS or set up your user, there’s always a step asking you your language, right? Part of that is what the OS will interpret the keyboard key codes as.

For example, I pick US English as my language and then also say that I want “Dvorak” as my keyboard layout instead of the normal “Qwerty”.

After that, my laptop keyboard (which is the standard Qwerty everyone in the US gets with their Dell laptop) will be interpreted by the OS as actually being Dvorak layout instead, so typing the keys labeled “asdf” makes “aoeu” show up.

Software keyboard layout vs hardware keyboard layout.

Baaron87,

Sure. In Windows there’s ways to change the settings for it. I’ll link some steps on that. I’ll also give the direct link if you want to use a blank keyboard:

www.microsoft.com/…/how-to-remap-your-keyboard

That article above goes very in depth about how to get that done. Depending on what you need to work with; foreign languages, different key formats, etc. it should have the steps to switch them out and give you the best workflow. The short of it though, even if your physical keys show one thing, they will react like you expect with a keyboard you’re familiar with.

As for the physical framework keyboard: frame.work/marketplace/keyboards

That second link will shows the different keyboard options they have. As a side note, if you choose the DIY edition, you can pick from the different keyboards rather than be stuck with default English. Still doesn’t have Swedish, but may give you a better alternative this way.

Do note, the DIY edition does require some assembly. When I got mine I had to install the wireless card, memory and SSD. Everything else is basically pre-assembled. frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-intel?q=pro…

Feel free to ask more questions if you need to. And you’re welcome

Damage,

Are they comparable in price? What is it that you actually do with your computer?

clark,
@clark@midwest.social avatar

I will be studying cyber security where we will do some script programming (but no heavy programming at all), otherwise I use it to stream movies online and watch Youtube. That’s pretty much what I do with my current school-prescribed computer.

scytale,

Just a note that virtualization is not available on Apple silicon (M1+) yet, so if you plan on running VMs like Kali, it won’t be possible.

aesc,
@aesc@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Sure it will, just get Kali for ARM. www.kali.org/docs/arm/

skozzii,

Get a refurb thinkpad(x1 carbon gen7 ish maybe) and run Linux if your in to cybersecurity.

aesc,
@aesc@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

Oh, you want to study cybersecurity? Yeah forget what I said before, get a Framework, and if you don’t put Linux on it at least put WSL on it. Learn all you can.

WeLoveCastingSpellz,

cybersecurity really poibts to framework + linux

hackeryarn, (edited )

I’ve worked on dev tooling in a fairly large company. Especially for cyber security, do not get a Mac. A lot of the tools are just different enough on a Mac that they will make your life much harder.

Vanth, (edited )
@Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

What do you do on your laptop? For example, engineering students and STEM hobbyists probably want Windows, maybe Linux depending on their interests, specced out to run CAD or whatever simulation software their major will dictate. Graphic artists and photographer hobbyists might want Mac.

Framework laptops can ship with Windows already installed. You can also install Windows or Linux yourself, but Linux is not required.

You mention you don’t know Linux, but how comfortable are you with hardware? Can you open your current laptop and add memory? Are you interested in upgrading your laptop hardware periodically or is it going to be a chore you avoid?

Your question on 8 vs 16GB memory should be driven by your use. Personally, 8gb isn’t enough for me anymore, it locks out a lot of newer games and programs that I want to use. Does your school recommend OS and specs for your major? Make sure those are met at a minimum.

clark,
@clark@midwest.social avatar

I will be studying cyber security and network infrastructure with some limited script programming. I understand it is far easier to use Windows if you study in engineering.

I am interested in Linux, but seeing as Microsoft is very closed-off (cannot use installed versions of Microsoft365), I am a bit unsure if I want to fully commit to it. I am absolutely willing to try running it and getting a feel of it, though.

What does the process look like when you install Windows on your own? Is it difficult / costly?

Vanth,
@Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

If you think Microsoft has closed off Windows, what until you learn about Apple/Mac…

clark,
@clark@midwest.social avatar

I am aware of that, I was just saying.

Vanth,
@Vanth@reddthat.com avatar

No offense, but I don’t get why you’re looking at MAC OR FRAMEWORK.

You don’t need either, you’re not an Apple fanboy and you aren’t into graphic design or video editing type jobs/hobbies… Mac isn’t for you.

You aren’t into hardware or Linux, you don’t even have strong knowledge on how much memory you would need or what keeping it upgraded would entail. Framework isn’t for you.

Why not a normal Windows laptop where you aren’t paying a premium for branding? Unless the brand is what’s most important to you, in which case that’s totally your personal call. Want to be an Apple-vibe person or a Framework-vibe person?

mipadaitu,

You can always upgrade the memory, and storage of the framework laptop, so you can start with the 8GB and then pick up more pretty cheap later.

One of the best things about the framework is that you don’t have to pay for a package upgrade of parts if all you need is just one thing to upgrade.

Also, when you do need to update something, you can just get a new motherboard and memory, and not have to buy a whole new laptop.

Honestly, just get the framework, unless there’s a real reason you need a Mac.

fox2263,

You can also update the processor when they release new parts.

And you don’t have to run Windows, put a nice flavour of Linux on it for that fast feeling. Or rip everything out of Windows with something like the AME wizard.

clark,
@clark@midwest.social avatar

Thanks for this comment! Everybody on Reddit says to get Macbook instead of Framework, so it’s nice to have some differing opinions.

Rooki,
@Rooki@lemmy.world avatar

If you want to be the “cool guy” then macbook is your choice, it will cost more and repair is risky to be done by anyone except apple himself.

If you want to have a laptop, that is easy to repair,upgrade and is cheap but powerfull then Framework laptop.

On macbook you are locked into apple, you cant upgrade, you can only get support by apple and most of the time third party stuff doesnt work right on macbook. On Framework laptop you are more open to do anything, like upgrading, switching OS if windows isnt right for you. Framework is a lot more open and listens to the community.

Soulfulginger,

I am not very familiar with framework but I did switch from macbooks to a dell gaming laptop years ago and I am so glad I did.

The macs are ridiculously expensive, and even if you break just the charger it costs a lot to replace. My laptop now I was able to get for nearly half the price and it runs games and programs that I used in college better than the mac ever could.

Every mac I ever owned completely died in 4-6 years of purchase. They’re basically guaranteed to not last a long time. My guess is you’re better off with getting a framework

NightAuthor,

There are plenty of reasons not to like apple products, but the 4-6 years for macbooks is unheard of. There’s a reason I was able to sell my 2015 macbook for 60% of its purchase price in 2020. They keep chugging along, built physically strong, with great battery management that means it doesn’t degrade much over time. And with launch of apple silicon, the performance of them is even better. They won’t game, but for a certain type of person they are a good choice. And for other people they’re a bad choice, that they’ll make just for the sake of social status or whatever.

  • Not a apple fanboy, see my other comment.
Zoldyck,

I wouldn’t buy either.

clark,
@clark@midwest.social avatar

Can you elaborate? What computer would you use?

roofuskit,
@roofuskit@lemmy.world avatar

If you’re considering a framework laptop I can’t imagine you’d want to be stuck on Apple software/silicon.

noughtnaut,
@noughtnaut@lemmy.world avatar

Are you only considering the hardware/price, or also the software side?

Which OS’es do you have experience with, and/or preference for?

The previous Mac I used was the first one they made with a colour screen (yes, I’m that old). Then last year I got a Mac laptop and I wanted to love it … but man, that OS is getting in my way something fierce! To such an extent, in fact, that I switched over to my own (arguably inferior) Thinkpad that’s been running Linux since forever.

some_guy,

Apple does flat-rate repairs for Mac laptops that haven’t been damaged by impact or liquid damage. If they can perform a repair cheaper in-store, they usually will do so, but I am going on old info from being a repair tech at an Apple Store a decade ago. You could ask an Apple Store employee to get the cost of flat-rate repairs from a technician and then you’d know what you’re potentially looking at. I’ve owned many Mac laptops and only needed a repair on one (and that was still under warranty).

I’m a Mac nerd who’s fascinated by Framework laptops. I don’t think either decision would be wrong. I haven’t got to test drive one, so I can’t offer an informed opinion beyond what I’ve said here.

const_void,

Framework

JohnDClay,

Funny, I was just watching something about framework! It’s got some discussion of various framework reviews and the pros and cons of the machine.

www.youtube.com/live/KDIXNRgnDWQ/?t=21m49s

With framework being a new company, looks like they’re working out some bugs, but they’re doing it quickly and transparently. The laptop costs more per performance than other options, but since you can upgrade it down the line, you can save money in the long run.

Compared to a MacBook, it really depends on the applications you use. Video editing is likely going to be better on mac, but good luck trying to game on it. Mac has better battery life, but you’ll pay an arm and a leg to repair anything, sometimes being cheaper to buy a whole new machine than pay their exorbitant prices.

So it all depends on the use case, but I’d go with framework. I care that the company isn’t adversarial, and it would work for what I use a laptop for.

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