Zagorath

Zagorath, 1 year ago

I used to think people talking about “horseshoe theory” were all bullshitters. Because I had never seen people on the left unironically doing anything close to what the right does.

Then I saw the tankies on Lemmy. I’m still a proud leftist, but geez nothing has made me question that stance more than seeing how fervently the tankies deny genocides and defend aggressive warmongering—as long as the country perpetrating it is one that calls itself “communist”, or is a successor to one that used to call itself communist. Exactly the same way the right and centre-left do regarding Israel’s genocides. Lemmy’s tankies are way more similar to the nazis of other social media than any other group around.

Which scares me a little as someone who basically completely agrees with them on economic issues.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

You hadn’t thought of it because it’s completely made up. Xi started getting compared to Winnie the Pooh by Chinese citizens after a picture came out showing Xi and former US President Obama together in a similar pose to Pooh and Tigger. Used originally for rather light-hearted ribbing of Xi, the Chinese government decided to crack down on it hard, which has had a massive Streisand Effect with the comparison between Xi and Pooh becoming popular in the West because Xi has shown how sensitive he is to it.

There’s no racial component to it at all. It’s all about being critical of the absurd censorship of the current PRC’s government.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

The left doesn’t think Jewish people are monsters. They think people who support the Israeli government are monsters.

Because yeah, supporting genocide is monstrous. And one would have thought that Jewish people should be the most sensitive to this issue. And certainly, there are a lot of Jewish people who do recognise how evil the Israeli government is. At least one of the people tragically killed on 7 October was a Jewish supporter of Palestine, and their family came out in the aftermath saying they hoped the Israeli government didn’t use it as an excuse to do…precisely what they have ended up doing. At least some of the many pro-Palestine protests around the world have been organised in part by organisations like Loud Jew Collective and Jews Against Genocide.

Don’t fall for the propaganda that says if you’re Jewish, you must support Israel. Heck, even if you are Israeli or have family in Israel, you don’t need to be supportive of what the government is doing. One of the few good things that can be said about Israel is that it is a fairly free liberal democracy—as long as you’re not Palestinian, at least—and that comes with the freedom to be critical of the government. A freedom you can and should exercise when your government is committing genocide.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

so you’re saying that every political faction “denies genocide and defends aggressive warmongering”?

No. Leftists who aren’t tankies don’t.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

You can pretend all you want that you’re “just asking questions”, but that doesn’t change facts. The Uyghur genocide has been very well-established for a long time now.

The Chinese propaganda trying to deny their genocide has the same vibes as that time a Chinese official went on a western political current affairs show and said “you have a voting democracy, we have a working democracy”. The fact that Chinese state censorship is so strong (while western media is not censored) means there is very good reason to distrust the reports from Chinese media when they are in disagreement with the majority of reporting from everywhere else. So yeah, I’m going to trust reports from high quality journalistic organisations like the ABC, rather than anything that’s allowed to be reported on publicly within China.

The irony here, of course, is that even if you take the Chinese party line at its word. That its actions are nothing more than heavily policing an area where there are dangerous terrorists and separatist. That’s pretty much exactly the same as the Israeli line. It boggles my mind that people can call out one but not the other. It’s not surprising for me that the right does it. There’s an element of racism there, and chauvinism for defending their political allies. And I’ll be honest, I’ve always associated the right with a denial of facts. But the fact that people who have the gall to call themselves leftists will pretend there’s nothing wrong is

Zagorath, 1 year ago

Thus I do not accept claims about “genocide” committed by the US’ main rival without good evidence

It’s very easy to say this, because it means you can just reject any evidence to the contrary as “not good” or “biased”.

Separating children from their parents. Raising them to be assimilated with the majority culture. Clamping down on their expression of their culture. These are all acts of genocide.

The most untrustworthy source here is the Chinese government themselves. Any report from a country should be treated with scepticism, but none more so than when that country clamps down on the free press.

We have so many reports out of Xinjiang. Leaks from people in the province itself. Reports from the family of people there. Evidence inferred from satellite imagery and what information is publicly available from the Chinese government. There’s just no denying it. You can choose to pretend China’s doing nothing wrong if you like. I hope you sleep well, knowing you’re defending genocide.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

Tankies on Lemmy like to pretend China isn’t committing genocide against Uyghurs.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

The irony is that the only Lemmy instances blocked in China are the tanky ones.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

I’m a leftist who isn’t a tankie

To be clear. If you call yourself a leftist, and you pretend China isn’t committing genocide, that makes you a tanky. That’s what tankies are: people who claim to be leftists who support violent authoritarian regimes.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

Sleep well, genocidist.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

claims are basically an astroturfed campaign by an evangelical christo-fascist named Adrian Zenz.

Yes, because Zenz is definitely the only reason anyone knows about the genocide. There totally aren’t actual Uyghurs who have told their own stories or anything like that.

that’s the hardest part for a lot of Americans since you’re

Nice try, but nope. I haven’t exactly been subtle either. Actually wait, not even nice try, because the correct answer is literally my instance.

Yeah, US imperialism, and western imperialism more broadly, is bad. That isn’t relevant here though, because we’re talking about a genocide China is committing against a minority population within their own borders.

(You could maybe have made something at least appearing to be a valid argument about imperialism if we were instead talking about Russia’s unprovoked aggression against another country, which I know tankies also like to defend. But that’s not where we’re at right now.)

If you call yourself a leftist, try reflecting a bit on what that actually means to you. Because to me, it means desiring equality and opposing social hierarchy. And restricting people’s ability to express their culture; stealing children away from their parents, preventing people from leaving your country to reconnect with their relatives. These are all very much not in line with leftist ideals. Defending a country that calls itself communist just because that’s in its name, without reflecting on how well they actually live up to those values, is pretty poor leftism in my view.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

You’ve already proven not to be interested in accepting evidence. So what more value is there in trying to provide any?

Zagorath, 1 year ago

🙄

Zagorath, 1 year ago

Horseshoe theory doesn’t make sense. That’s the thing.

Until suddenly you start seeing people who call themselves leftists denying genocide. Which is something we usually think of as being a quality of the far-right.

(The obvious solution here, of course, is that these people who call themselves leftists…aren’t. Because if leftism is about equality, there’s nothing equal about subjecting a people and preventing the continuance of their culture.)

Zagorath, 1 year ago

There’s a big difference between being upset at some difference in ideology and looking at people sincerely defending or denying a genocide in the name of that ideological difference.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

Where are leftists denying genocide? I’ve never heard a leftist deny a genocide, ever.

In Xinjiang province of China. That’s where.

But of course, if you define “genocide” as “thing that I’m willing to politically accept is a genocide”, it’s very easy to pretend someone isn’t a genocide denialist.

Zagorath, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

If you deny something that’s actually not a real thing, you’re not a genocide denialist. So…no.

I do love how tankies have such poor intellectual rigour that if someone calls them out on something they immediately jump to the worst possible straw man. It really undermines your case.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

“Freedom of the press” is a joke

Yes, I know that’s what China believes. That’s why it’s so important.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

you seem like you’re pretty supportive of the violent authoritarian USian regime

Where, precisely, did I suggest that at all?

Zagorath, 1 year ago

Oh, I see. I saw someone else make that same comparison just a minute ago.

I guess this is the new tanky line? Try and discredit the Uyghur genocide by pretending it’s equivalent to bullshit claims about a white genocide? Nice. Clever rhetoric. Shame you seem to have exposed the astroturfy nature of your movement so blatantly with your timing there.

Zagorath, 1 year ago

What evidence would you accept? Because you act as though you’ve already convinced yourself it’s not real and wouldn’t accept any evidence to the contrary. What, precisely, would convince you that you’re wrong, if firsthand accounts aren’t good enough?