cyclohexane

@cyclohexane@lemmy.ml

West Asia - Communist - international politics - anti-imperialism - software development - Math, science, chemistry, history, sociology, and a lot more.

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cyclohexane,

Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is. Casualties are not even order of magnitudes close. Even the horrific ways in which Israel has tortured and murdered Palestinians is unmatched by Hamas, despite it being a militia rather than an organized army judged by the international community.

Israel has burned children alive, they have officials who bragged about raping and torturing children, they make people destroy their own homes by THEIR OWN HANDS. And this is while Israel has the upper hand, yet it is still the more horrifying of the two by many orders of magnitude. Comparing the two is sickening.

cyclohexane,

What matters isn’t who came first. What matters is that no one has the right to expel a human from a land they’re living in. That is the core of the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

I am pro Palestine, but have no issue with the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century. The problem is not Jewish migration. It is the fact that Israel expelled Palestinians from their homes, murdered them, suffocated them, and made their lives miserable.

And this is the same thing that was done to the native people of the modern day Americas.

cyclohexane,

Where?

cyclohexane,

So you’re saying native Americans have every right to kill, maim and rape settler-colonialist Americans?

Where did OP say this? It is a bannable offense so please point out where, as I don’t see it.

cyclohexane,

An outspoken supporter of genocide and colonialism? Yeah that’s a ban from me.

cyclohexane,

I see you made an edit, so I’ll respond to it here.

While no one should have the right to rape anyone or murder innocent people, the only one to blame for these atrocities is the Israeli state. They are keeping millions of people in a concentration camp, massacring them slowly every day, destroying their homes, cutting off supply lines and giving them just enough living resources to experience slow death. They burn their children alive. Their soldiers brag about raping Palestinians.

So then if those people lose it and retaliate, who are you going to blame? Those trapped in the concentration camp and chose to resist? Or the ones doing it to them?

And in reality, despite all of this, Hamas has been far more humane in treating Israelis than Israel is with Palestinians. They protected their hostages, and have a history of doing so. They give mothers and the elderly special treatment.

If you are upset about rape and cold blooded murder, look no further than Israel. If you’re outraged about Hamas, who’s not even a fraction the concern that Israel is, your priorities are not right at all.

cyclohexane,

Please feel free to ask any questions! I am happy to answer them all

Can you please cite which part of Wikipedia is saying this?

“Palestine” and “Israel” are two names for the same region, so it doesn’t make sense to be expelled from one into the other. I think there must be a misunderstanding here.

I bet this is referring to certain Arab States expelling Jews during the creation of Israel and the British occupation of Palestine, as a retaliation (which was horrible and stupid and I fully condemn it). But keep in mind this is well into the conflict, when Zionists and British occupation were already well into committing heinous acts and massacres, and that this is Arab States who sympathized with Palestine, not Palestine itself.

What I was referring to was treatment of Jews in Palestine before the Zionist project.

As for Hamas’ anti-semitism, I think some background information is important here.

When it was founded, Hamas was not a popular group by any means. Popular Palestinian resistance groups at the time were socialist and progressive, such as the PFLP and other members of the PLO. Hamas was founded as a Muslim brotherhood affiliate, and its charter had many anti Semitic references.

Israel saw this as a huge opportunity, and it propped up Hamas while fighting off other groups. Fast forward to the 2000’s, every Palestinian resistance group was left defeated, and Hamas was left as the only group left fighting. Palestinians had no choice but to support Hamas.

This was a major change for Hamas. It saw hoardes of Palestinians join its ranks, and most were not ideologically aligned with them. There are even Christians fighting among its ranks. This caused an ideological shift within Hamas. It was even reflected in its new charter in 2017, which dropped anti-semitic rhetoric and said it is fighting against Israel, not because of its religion, but because of the Zionist occupation. You can find this charter translated online easily.

Since then, many Hamas officials reiterated their position that they are not fighting to expel Jews, but against Zionist occupation.

Palestinians today see Hamas as a vehicle for their liberation, and not as an ideological alignment. But even then, most of the people in Hamas do not hold anti Semitic opinions anymore, and we should keep in mind this major shift throughout its history.

cyclohexane,

Didn’t Arabs and Palestinians just flat out refuse to coexist with a Jewish state from the start?

“coexist with a Jewish state” is a bit of a contradictory statement. Arabs coexisted with Jews fine prior to the Zionist project. A Jewish state is by definition a state exclusive to Jews. That’s the opposite of coexistnece by definition, and yes that is exactly why Arabs (Muslims and Christians alike) refused it.

Certainly if they chose to fight,

Resist*. they chose to resist occupation, expulsion from their homes, massacre and genocide.

fight, and lost, then they have to face the consequences which might include losing their land.

Ahh, so if someone fights you for your land, destroys your home and genocides your people, then they’ve earned it?? Well I should not be surprised that someone who lives in a nation founded on genocide thinks this is okay.

yes it’s “wrong” to kick someone off their land, both parties have to at least be reasonable and willing to compromise

“hey man, I know I just took over your home and burned your family alive in front of your eyes. But you gotta be reasonable here and be willing to compromise!”

What more of a compromise do you need beyond coexistence? That’s all Palestinians have asked for, and Israel continues to deny them basic rights, no matter how peaceful they are.

And I end with: Israel bad apartheid state. It is truly that simple.

cyclohexane,

What country are you in?

The US has a large Jewish population by number.

cyclohexane,

Said Jews then set about building a thriving western-style industrialized democracy that was opposed at every turn by an Arab and Islamic population that opposed its very existence

I am pretty sure that they were concerned about being expelled from their homes and massacred, and not because they hated “thriving industrialized democracy”.

cyclohexane,

Wrong about what exactly? What does having Arabs in the military prove (or disprove)?

cyclohexane,

I don’t doubt this at all, but any resources on this?

cyclohexane,

Other examples existing does not change that it is historically unprecedented and far from the norm. And its just a really strange and pointless thing to point.

Person A: “my dad died in a car bomb” Person B: “ehh, average family death” A: “uhh what?” B: "well, there are other examples of people dying in car bombs, dude! "

cyclohexane,

So… Average history?

No

cyclohexane,

Welcome to the Internet. Do you know how it works?

cyclohexane,

Yeah uhh… Not at all, actually.

cyclohexane,

If more than one entity massacred people, it means massacre is okay? Very strange logic. Do bad things have to be done by only one entity to be considered bad?

cyclohexane,

You’re correcting me saying that expelling native populations time and time again from every land they go to, then genociding their entire population to the point of near extinction, using the most horrific methods and over centuries, is more akin to dying of old age than dying by a bomb?

Please read that again and confirm to me that’s what you’re saying, because it sounds absolutely ridiculous. This scale and this horror are not common historical occurrence.

cyclohexane,

I am sorry to restate this again, but the expulsion, genocide on the scale (both in size and horror) is historically unprecedented. You’re going to have to prove this to me if you think it’s a common occurrence instead of continuing to repeat it.

And for the record, no one here is talking about small scale expulsion. I am talking about expulsion AND genocide on the same scale and horror committed here. Show me that it is a common occurrence and I will concede.

cyclohexane,

I’ve seen a multitude of other comments here proclaiming all those other genocides were okay because they were thousands of years ago.

Where did anyone say it was okay because it was longer ago? Please point me to it, because I read the entire thread and did not see this once.

The genocide of native new worlders is historically unprecedented and that is fact. I highly doubt that genocides on the same scale, magnitude and horror are commonplace throughout history. I would urge you to support your claim with evidence or examples if you are going to repeat it, otherwise it is entirely baseless.

How much of the tab am I supposed to pick up?

However much it takes to bring up the status of the natives to what it would have been had they not been massacred and expelled, and undo the propping up of Western civilization on their backs. If you’d like more specific examples, I’d be glad to give them to you. Just ask.

We’re in a (relatively) peaceful era now

Source? That’s a pretty big claim.

cyclohexane,

Your first quotation is not about someone excusing a genocide because it happened a long time ago. They are saying that unlike the US, the current inhabitants in those regions can be traced back to the inhabitants thousands of years ago. Which means there wasn’t a major genocide or displacement of people. I am not endorsing this statement btw, I don’t know enough to confirm it. But it is not a condonation of genocide. It is in fact remarking that a genocide similar to what happened in North America did not happen in those other regions.

As you also wanted to be pointed to a source for genocides on the same or larger scale throughout history

You provided me a list of genocides on Wikipedia. None of them match the genocide against native Americans. Your link proves my point.

I guess I need to spell it out for some

I didn’t ask you to paraphrase or restate your point. I asked you to prove it or provide evidence. But I never expected you to be able to anyways, so don’t worry about it.

cyclohexane,

You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine

Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.

Whatever “muslim” representation there is in Israel, it is as good as none and does not change that it is an exclusive theocracy. Literally there is no equivalent to their religious exclusivism in any Muslim-majority nation. It is only matched by militant groups like ISIS.

Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they’d not hesitate to push it in an instant.

Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. “A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I’m sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!”. Please read that again and tell me you don’t see how ridiculous it sounds.

And you don’t have to hypothesize. Before Israel was created, and during the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century and early 20th, Arabs never enacted any genocide against the Jews or did what Israel does today. In fact, European Jews found it to be a safe haven in comparison to Europe.

Hamas is massively antisemitic

Hamas only garners support because it is the only group left putting up a fight. It was never popular before that. But because of that, it has many non-Hamas-ians joining its ranks, and many of them reiterate their support for living peacefully among Jews.

And its important to point out that Hamas only climbed up to this position because of Israeli support more than a decade ago. This is Israel’s own admission. They did not want progressive groups leading the resistance, and propped up Hamas instead. I’d be happy to cite you Israeli officials saying this.

even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push

That doesn’t mean they’re anti Semitic. The operation primarily targeted military installations, soldiers and officials. It is resistance against the Israeli state. So supporting this operation is being opposed to the Israeli state, not because they wish to evaporate all Jews. That’s ridiculous.

This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to.

It is quite the opposite. Russia-Ukraine involves two States with crimes on their records, and I only side with Ukraine because Russia is the aggressor. But Ukraine is far from being a good guy. Israel-Palestine is an apartheid state against stateless people getting murdered and expelled from their lands, and their best fight is minor incursions on the border. It is very much a one-sided fight.

cyclohexane,

At least bother looking some of this stuff up…

I’m not sure which part of those statistics you think contradicts what I said. Can you please quote which part of what I said contradicts it? Your statistics confirm what I said. Go back and read what I said.

These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not.

Is this an argument? I am going to ignore it because I find no substance here, but if there’s something I’m missing, let me know.

Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.

They were very popular before Hamas became the only group left fighting. Check out the PLO, of which they were a part of. Many of the prominent Palestinian figures were part of PFLP as well.

It’s not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal.

I literally just explained to you why it’s not. Feel free to argue my points directly, rather than restate the same statement I already disproved.

Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that’s why the first golf war happened

And the second gulf war happened because of their WMDs. We all know how the state department narrative was correct without any issues at all, right? Right?

Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.

Do you want to see the Palestinian child that was burned alive by Israeli fire? I can provide you a link.

I’m not going to bother to continue

That’s good. I prefer if you don’t. It’s not a good look. Please don’t spread misinformation elsewhere either.

cyclohexane,

Your first statement of “there’s totally Christians in Palestine”

Yes it’s true. Your own links prove I am right LOL. Not only that, many figures in Palestinian resistance are Christian. Examples: George Habash, founder of the PFLP. Shireen Abu Akleh, she was a journalist that Israelis murdered last year in cold blood.

There’s an entire Wikipedia article about Palestinian Christians. You might learn something (I doubt it, you don’t seem to be the kind):

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians

nice whataboutism, bringing up the 2nd Gulf War without addressing the very real issue in the first one

I didn’t imagine you would have so much trouble understanding that the west has a record of justifying war with bullshit claims. The first gulf war was due to, supposedly, Saddam’s involvement in Kuwait and doing horrendous things. It was later proven that the woman who testified in front of the UN to justify this war was lying. More here:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony

I chose not to continue arguing your other points

“I only cherry pick the arguments I may have a chance not looking stupid responding to”. I am sorry to break it to you, you look just as stupid in all the arguments, and your cherry picking is not a good look.

You said you would stop replying yet here you are. I urge you to stop wasting my time and spreading misinformation.

Last thing I’ll add: you’ve started to engage in adhom attacks. I’m going to let it pass since I personally don’t care, and imo you only embarrass yourself doing them. But if I see you doing that with anyone else in this community, I’ll have to ban you. So please keep your insulting in check.

cyclohexane,

You rn

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/72f212d8-aa69-4674-bd70-f1986ba57b8c.jpeg

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