I like the way standardisation is going, everything is going to be on the bee standard and that that isnt being updated too well too bad. What seperates us from the windows users is we can evolve if ya look at the distro tree it looks a lot like natrual selection to me
What’s so much better about Wayland than X? I mean, I’m not really a fan of X and the security nightmare that it is, but as a user it’s all pretty plug and play these days. What does a normal user get out of Wayland? Would they even know they’re using it?
I’d love to try it, but it currently won’t work with some software I use, so I haven’t bothered… And honestly I’m kind of confused about how everybody is talking about how amazing Wayland is (and how it seems to suddenly be the one true path for a bunch of distros) when my only experience with Wayland is people talking about how great it is and then not being able to screenshare or whatever… Which doesn’t make it seem great from the outside? That maybe sounds a bit flippant, but I genuinely don’t understand why “normal” people are so excited? I mean, I can see people caring about features like HDR and maybe that’s easier to build into Wayland than ancient X11, but I’d be more excited about the specific feature than Wayland itself which may make implementing these things easier?
Wayland cuts out all of the dead features and allows content to be drawn to the screen more directly. This means that there is a simplified architecture with great battery life.
Other than that, it doesn’t really bring much to the table currently. Not everyone needs (or wants) HDR and many of the other features that I would like to have are still in the works, so… I don’t really see a reason to use it, at least not now.
Support for HDR, variable refresh rate, direct draw and battery improvements sound like a very good list to have, other than the overall leaner build. You personally not caring about it doesn’t change the fact that it’s good to not stagnate when it comes to things like this.
Variable refresh rate has become the de facto standard of modern gaming now. They aren’t referring to the direct draw API, but the fact that Wayland does not have extra baggage to draw to the screen through a display server. Wayland just draws to the screen directly, saving time and performance.
First of all, X is not a security nightmare. There were 0 cases of someone getting hacked because of X exploit. It’s a FUD.
Now Wayland is a fad (haha). It’s not that much better than X and when it was drafted 10 years ago everyone just ignored it. Over the decade it became clear that X is stuck and at some point it will become obsolete so people started looking at alternatives and Wayland started getting some traction. Over time different tools started getting Wayland support, some people started getting exited about it and a kind of new meme developed where using Wayland meant that you’re ahead of everyone else (just like using Arch BTW). In the end it’s just a nice PR stunt. Ask people what specifically is so great about Wayland and they will mention some obscure features most people don’t need and features that it will have ‘soon’. In the long term the move will hopefully be a good thing but as of now if you don’t specifically need the few features it has you can keep ignoring it.
It is not a 'fad". Major distros have defaulted to Wayland (Ubuntu, Fedora, Red Hat, Debian, Manjaro etc).
X11 is old and designed for use cases in the 1980s. A lot of features have gradually moved out of X11 into the kernel or into other compositor systems. But the core X11 system is still limited by legacy design decisions and needing work arounds (which are complex to build and maintain).
Wayland is built to be the modern system that is built for current usage and needs. A lot of the benefits are not immediately obvious to the end user - a desktop is a desktop. But desktop interface projects like KDE who build user interfaces are hitting X11s limitations all the time, and a lot of effort goes in to working around X11s limits compared to working with Wayland. Effort spent working to work around X11 is time and work that could have been spent elsewhere on other fixes or new features and innovations.
The push to Wayland is deliberate and necessary, but was not always inevitable. Now that it’s being adopted so widely as the default by big distros and projects it is likely inevitable. It has essentially reached critical mass.
I think a lot of people asking “what’s the point” are not the ones working to build systems and distros at the back end. It’s easy for us as end users to take for granted all the work behind the scenes that make our desktops “just work”. But if you’re a volunteer building a compositor fit for 2024, I can see why it’d be frustrating working around the limitations of a system built for 1984.
X11 has served us incredibly well and is a hugely important project. But Wayland is the way forward.
While I don’t think X11 is great, I do not think wayland compositor is made to be easier to develop with. Wlroots had to be made to make things easier for compositor devs.
Sorry, I used the term “fad” to make a pun on X flaws being a ‘FUD’ (haha). It’s not a fad in the sense that it will soon disappear. What I meant is that the excitement around it is not funded in actual benefits and it just recently became fashionable to support it.
When Wayland can do and run everything X11 can, without problems, plus everything it promisses it can do, then I’ll make the switch. Till that time comes, I’m sorry, but it’s just not for me 🤷.
There are some really major deficiencies in Xorg that aren’t present in Wayland. The main one that made me switch was proper support for variable refresh rate, and the ability to mix and match any fixed or variable refresh rate displays you want.
It’s a super common use case to have a primary monitor with high refresh rate and VRR, plus one or two cheaper monitors that don’t. Xorg doesn’t really support that at all without some really hokey tricks that severely impede usability.
Proper sync support is another one. Yes, you can set tearfree in X but the implementation is crap. You’ll still get tearing in a lot of programs and at least in my experience, it introduces a pretty significant and perceptible input lag, far more than needed to eliminate tearing.
It’s a super common use case to have a primary monitor with high refresh rate and VRR, plus one or two cheaper monitors that don’t. Xorg doesn’t really support that at all without some really hokey tricks that severely impede usability.
I wish Wayland shills would stop spreading this lie. It literally just works. In fact, I’m doing it now on my laptop with a 144Hz 1080p monitor, and an external 60Hz 1440p monitor connected with Thunderbolt, with a dual-GPU setup (iGPU + nVidia, which Wayland doesn’t properly support, yet this is nVidia’s fault somehow even though Wayland compositors run entirely in user space, without interacting with the driver directly).
With VRR? Xorg definitely did not support this as of a year or so ago without running a separate xorg screen for each monitor which prevents you from doing stuff like moving windows between your displays.
Mixed refresh rates worked okay-ish but VRR definitely did not work well in multi monitor setups.
That’s why it doesn’t make sense arguing about it with Wayland fans. They always find this one obscure feature that X is missing and then claim it’s absolutely essential for everyone to have it. Most people have just one monitor, two equal/similar monitors, a handheld device with one screen or (and that’s the vast majority) simply don’t give a fuck that one of their monitors is working on a lower refresh rate. I’m glad Wayland finally found some traction with gamers obsessed with those things and is being adopted but the constant BS about everyone needing it is getting boring.
Mixed VRR is not an obscure feature for one. Most of my friends with gaming rigs have a primary monitor with VRR and use their old fixed rate monitors as secondary displays. Does it make a massive difference to run fixed refresh rate? No but it is noticeable and nice to have. Windows can do it and I paid for the hardware. Without parity on this kind of stuff, Linux is a hard sell to the people who do care about it.
Does it matter to Joe Schmoe? Probably not, but Joe Schmoe probably doesn’t care about Linux to begin with. You have to go for the tech enthusiasts first before you can get it to the masses.
1.6% of gamers use Linux. 25% of developers use Linux. Typical tech enthusiast is not gamer. Just because in your bubble people use VRR doesn’t mean it’s important to majority of users. Most Linux users don’t care.
1.6% of gamers is still millions of people. Entire industries exist on the back of much smaller customer bases than that. Might as well say we should stop caring about desktop linux completely since the server market dwarfs it.
I’m not saying we should just ignore it. I’m saying that it took the time it took (a decade) for Wayland to become a thing because most people don’t need it. Some people do and it’s not getting traction but most people can still safely ignore it.
Here’s the sad truth that Wayland haters hate: Wayland is way more performant and streamlined. X11 is an overly patched mess.
Everytime I had to install a distro, EVERYTIME I had to do some textfile hacking to avoid screen tearing with X11. Turns out in Wayland that is a virtually impossible bug.
Forget about making touchscreens work properly in X11, specially with a secondary screen.
I also remember all the weird bugs that appear in X11 when you have 2 screens with different scaling. No issue at all with Wayland.
Pretty basic stuff in any modern setup.
Wayland performs perfectly on platforms like KDE Plasma or Gnome. I miss no feature. It just requires that some propietary apps realise its potential. And that is what is already happening and will happen throughout 2024.
What does it do on new hardware? Not a lot of people are running normal desktop Linux on phones / tablets, are they? Which, totally cool if it works better on those things… but I guess I’m just surprised by how much hype there is for Wayland when X just works for me and would presumably just work for most people’s use cases. Like… who are all of these people that are emotionally invested in display servers, and what am I missing?
I mean, 20 years ago or whatever there was always the pain of black screens and X configs… but it just kind of works now in my experience?
Well that’s confusing because the meme is complaint text with Hulk saying that he sees this as an absolute win and you titled the post “I don’t” which means you don’t see this as absolute win and therefore agree with complaint text in the image.
Killing is overly dramatic, but it’s putting a burden on certain projects if they want to convert to it and not all have the resources to tank it. I don’t see Window Maker porting their toolkit to Wayland, for instance.
But XWayland exists so I don’t see what’s the fuss.
I don’t mind Wayland but I sure hope flatpack will not become the default way to distribute packages. Most packages I tried so far didn’t work. I just avoid it now.
That’s strange? I’ve never come across a single broken Flatpak across multiple computers with Linux installed. Do you have examples of broken Flatpaks?
I think it is unusual. As a software engineer who has a large circle of friends, loads of them know I use Linux, but literally no one cares or is curious about knowing more. And honestly I’m not interested in explaining. We talk about and do other things lol. I sometimes talk about differences and news about both with those who have jobs or interests closer to the IT business, and we have a short conversation about those news, but nobody asks me about Linux, and especially not Windows. It’s not interesting.
X11 is already dead, and it will not become more or less usable it will always stay the way it’s and wayland will gwt better. that’s the difference and flatpak is just an option it doesn’t try to replace what’s already availible. spreading distrust and miainformation about these softwares doesn’t help
How do you mean that? I’ve been using X11 for like 17 years. i3 uses X11, and I will most likely not use another WM if I can help it. It’s perfect for me. X11 is available in the core repositories of all the big distros.
Just because they don’t do full releases doesn’t mean it isn’t developed anymore. They switched to updating modules individually, with three updates made this month. Doesn’t sound very abandoned to me.
I actually used Sway for a while. Can’t remember why I switched back though. What would X11 “going end-of-life” entail? Not being distributed/packaged anymore? Is there an official timeline for that or something?
Essentially they’re not doing feature work on the core codebase. I’m not sure if that’s true or not, but the packaging of it wouldn’t be up to the developers but the distro maintainers.
I’ll say that while it still has features that Wayland doesn’t it’s not dead, it doesn’t get updates yes but it still used by a lot of people for the fact that Wayland just doesn’t support some stuff that x11 does. Great example I have is TeamViewer and Nvidia+KDE
While TeamViewer is definitely neglected I use it often on Wayland and it works well actually!
In the past year or so it doesn’t shut down correctly. But the core functionality works well.
I’ve been experimenting with Rustdesk as an alternative because I doubt they’ll update the Linux client anytime soon. The Windows version looks like an entirely different application at this point
In terms of feature parity. I believe the only thing left is global hotkeys, which hyprland proved it can be done.
I gotta be honest, Microsoft did a great job with the UX of their 365 ecosystem. It’s great as a user, but as an administrator or small business it is a nightmare.
But in a large corpo setting, it works really well.
The wider Linux community could learn a lot from it.
I don’t know, I think UX has vastly improved since I started using it in 2008 and is still improving every year. It’s just all these cloud and communication features we’re behind on.
It would be cool to have something P2P, like Syncthing and Tox, integrated into all mainstream distros for sync and communacation Then you have some sort of a single sign-on that connects you to all your devices and people you want to communicate with. Instead of Microsoft login you have a built in pw manager that automatically creates and stores (and syncs) accounts for you and so on.
Back in the day, Ubuntu made huge strides in UX and usability, and they’re still riding the coattails of that success even now that they’ve shifted to the corporate sector.
ElementaryOS came out and was super polished, simple, and beautiful. That’s still kinda true, but their small team has meant that they’re now falling behind the likes of Gnome, who’ve set out to do a similar thing.
The Cinnamon desktop is ugly out of the box, but other aspects of UX have been pretty great - everything is simple, they were pioneers in making everything a GUI option, rather than the last 5% of things having to be done in a config file or via terminal.
And finally, Gnome. Extremely polished, consistent, beautiful, and heavily UX-focused. That applies not only to their own system, but also to their third party app ecosystem. Just look at the apps on Gnome Circle - a Gnome project for showcasing apps that nail the Gnome design guidelines. Tell me they don’t look like they have a focus on UX.
Honestly, even MacOS struggles to feel as UX-focused as Gnome, and that’s saying something. UX is like, Apple’s entire schtick. Everything from trackpad gestures to UI elements, subtle animations, etc in Gnome is about UX.
Even KDE Plasma, which is often mocked for being hilariously inconsistent and filled with bizarre clunky UX, has made major strides in the past couple of years, and Plasma 6, releasing very soon, will fix a bunch of fundamental things that currently hold Plasma back from being consistent, and a significant portion of bugs have been fixed - it looks like it won’t be the buggy mess that Plasma 4 and early Plasma 5 was. We’re about to see a major improvement.
What are you talking about? It’s horrible from a users perspective. I never know where I am saving anything
I only use Windows at work (because I have to). The thing that drives me fucking nuts, as an advanced computer user in general, is how God damned unintuitive the 365 Office,OneDrive, and File explorer integration is.
I have no idea where I am saving stuff half the time(or more accurately have to change it each time because the defaults are dumb). I don’t want it in my OneDrive downloads folder or OneDrive documents folder. I want it in my fucking laptop download folder or local documents folder.
Then Teams is saving stuff in SharePoint in the background, permissions are annoying AF. At least they’ll flag that a recipient of an email attachment or imbedded url doesn’t have access. So that’s nice I guess.
Oh, then sometimes I’m prompted to save a copy of a shared document, but that’s different from “download a copy”. If you save a copy it just makes a new shared copy for everyone in the SharePoint site.
I feel like a boomer when I work with MS now. Maybe it’s all enterprise settings for where I work and maybe it’s not MS’s fault but hot damn I am so much less productive than if I just used Gsuite, only office, on Mac or .
Maybe I just need to spend a week taking training classes on these products. But who tf has time for that when you have your actual job to do. So I guess that really sums up Microsoft for me: it’s in the way and slowing me down.
after a brief glance it looks like it, but that’s the same case as x over ssh. otherwise there’s things like vnc that wouldn’t care what each side is running
It’s such a niche feature that I bet most people under 30yrs never heard or used that it’s become too cringey that everyone keeps mentioning it.
But there’s the solution already mentioned.
I’d just like that some people would look a bit at themselves and realize that almost nobody wants or cares about that single weird feature. There are many remote desktop solutions more known to end users that need that kind of interaction.
Actual Unix users care. Maybe people that just jumped ship from Microsoft don’t, but I think that’s just because they don’t know what’s possible and how convenient it is.
“Move fast and break things” may be fine for software gurus who love to experiment and have no problem hitting their head against the wall every few days while believing in the promise of a free-to-fix future, but this isn’t true for poor or busy people who are NOT middle class folks living in their own house in a suburb with a garage full of computer parts. There are single parents, caregivers with disabled and/or elderly, folks who need a reliable computer for their studies, and in general people who simply need something that JUST WORKS.
I’m a caregiver, and unfortunate I’m poor enough that I don’t have money to buy a commercial OS. Heck, I wish Windows just worked instead of making old versions obsolete. I was perfectly fine with Windows 7 ten years ago until Microsoft started doing planned obsolescence bullshit with their forced updates. I had to switch to Linux because Windows became very unreliable and I needed a stable platform that wouldn’t ruin my work.
(So if you’re one of the persons who reply to “Help my Linux is having problems” with “well you should know Linux is like that, you should have thought it twice before switching”, then you’re part of the problem because that’s a very, very shitty answer to give to a non technical end user with limited time and resources)
The year of the Linux desktop will never arrive if developers keep pushing incomplete and buggy software to the end users instead of actually fixing bugs and delivering their stuff ONLY when they’re ready.
You’re not wrong but also misinterpreting this. Yes, it’s bad to push incomplete software on end users, and it’s even apart of the entire development ideals of Linux: never break userspace. There’s even small bits of code (see: egrep and fgrep) in the core commands that has been on the chopping block for removal for 2 decades but hasn’t because removing them would break apps.
The choice of PUSHING Wayland on end users is not up to the developers making wayland, it’s up to the distro maintainers, and this image honestly doesn’t even make sense. Most distros right now are either so nothing, and the ones that do are disabling Wayland until it’s more feature complete. The only big distro I remember that’s specifically is pushing for it is Fedora, and Fedora is specifically known for pushing for new initiatives.
X11 works just fine, and will work just fine for a long time, and if there’s ever a point where a majority of apps start dropping X11 support for Wayland, it’s going to be because Wayland just works by that point and has for long enough for devs to care.
That article itself against has been a pain point for years because it over-dramaticises a lot of the pain points about Wayland and a lot of the issues it touts don’t… exist anymore. I’ve used lots of software like OBS on Wayland just fine a long time ago even though the article says it’s been broken for years. Nvidia on Wayland has also just gotten to a good state on proprietary drivers while the article implies you need the crappy open source drivers to use Wayland at all, which hasn’t been true for a very long time. I could go on about this article, but Brodie Robertson has already talked it to death on YouTube.
Wayland does “just work” (no bugs, no configuration, just switch to it and nothing breaks) for a lot of users at this point, and I’m tired of this article ignoring that and trying to make it seem like Wayland is this buggy slop everyone’s being forcefed when it’s not.
if developers keep pushing incomplete and buggy software to the end users instead of actually fixing bugs
My understanding is, the issue is that fixing bugs in X has become too much of an issue due to bloat and bad historical architecture, so the developers working on it - and providing the software for free, if not working for free - instead worked together to develop a new standard aiming to fix the issues inherent to X’s code and design.
The “list of problems” is absolute bullshit right from the start. The first two sections are “It didn’t used to work like this in X, Wayland is trash!” and “I had some screen recording software using X APIs and they don’t work when not running in X!”. In fact, a lot of them follow this pattern, blaming Wayland because it doesn’t have 100% backwards compatibility. It’s not an X rewrite, it’s meant to be a new, better piece of software.
I will not deny that Wayland has problems, of course - but those mostly come down to NVidia refusing to support open protocols, missing features that are yet to be implemented, and missing software support for Wayland.
I will also say that on Arch, which doesn’t assume I’m using X, Wayland does work completely fine for me when following instructions. It might be an issue with the distro you’re using not having good support, or one of those edge cases like problematic hardware. I definitely agree that you should stick with X for now if you have problems, but I’ll also say that you’re getting it for free, and if you don’t report problems, they might also not know about them, for example because it only occurs on specific hardware.
Pointing out flaws is fine. Shitting on devs, is not, just like devs shitting on users isn’t.
Don’t be surprised if you attack somebody and they defend themselves.
Saying “X doesn’t work” is completely fine. Writing a rant about how opensource devs don’t think about people, yadayada. Buddy, these are people giving up their free time to write stuff. Nobody’s forcing you to use it. There are no guarantees provided, no warranties either. It’s provided as is.
The way you are is as if someone built a free house in the woods, you showed up and complained about how the door is creaky, the toilet leaky, a draft coming through the windows, and you wrote a review online disparaging the free work. Does that sound like good behavior to you?
Users can’t even add a feature request because they’re met with a storm of insults and snobbery.
How did you write the feature request? “I demand this be implemented because you’re providing a product and I’m a customer” or “It would be great if X were added for reason Y”? If it’s the latter and you were met with unkindness, of course that’s shit, no doubt.
I understand devs being busy. What I can’t stand is their fan club who keep shitting on every user asking questions or not having the time to do a deep search on every single solution and the problems that come with it.
Maybe this is news for you, but FOSS communities are incredibly toxic. Every single suggestion or legitimate complaint is taken as a personal attack.
Then they wonder why people don’t pay enough attention to Linux and Open Source Software in general.
Perhaps they should realize there’s too many assholes in the community who keep driving people away. Normal folks have a limit. They just leave and hope their Windows doesn’t crash away, which is less frustrating than having to personally deal not only with tech issues but the shitty attitude of peple who are knowledgeable enough.
Worse, when you want to point out a flaw, you need to build an exhaustive list of reddit posts, archive org pages and so on and face trial because unless you give every single piece of evidence then your complaint is invalid. And I’m sorry but normal people just don’t have time for this shit.
Remember that joke? Ask for help and you get no response; Say linux sucks because you can’t do X and you get dozens of apologetic posts explaining step by step how to do stuff.
don’t shit on people who donate their free time to make a product you can use for free with no warranty whatsoever, unless they treat you like shit
many FOSS communities are toxic: I wholeheartedly agree. Fuck those that are. Ain’t nobody got time for that.
Still point 2 does not invalidate point 1.
I’ve had to deal with toxic ubuntu, debian, arch, nixos, rust, java, python, … communities. The ones that piss me off the most are linux communities that treat newcomers like gutter-filth, refuse to endorse GUIs, good documentation, and just a generally better newcomer experience, then wonder why there’s no “year of the linux desktop”. I hate those gatekeepers with a passion. “If you use Linux, you must learn to use the command line”, no how about you fuck off to whatever CLI cave you came from and learn to be a productive member of the community?
As I said, I get it. But again, writing an angry bug report, demanding a new feature be implemented, writing a tirade about “how bad opensource software is” or whatever? Nah. Not OK
Remember that joke? Ask for help and you get no response; Say linux sucks because you can’t do X and you get dozens of apologetic posts explaining step by step how to do stuff.
There are single parents, caregivers with disabled and/or elderly, folks who need a reliable computer for their studies, and in general people who simply need something that JUST WORKS.
This is also one of the many reasons why Linux as an OS fails to establish a bigger user base. Of course, this is one of the smallest problems, but it still is.
Like Linus said, every tool every dev made was usually because they wanted to fix problems in their workflow, not because users needed something that they can provide. Sure, I’d also look at things from this perspective. After all, god made his beard first, not everyone else’s, but the trouble is, things don’t really move fast enough in that direction. Don’t get me wrong, there has been progress in GUI tools, but not enough IMO. Most tools are terminal based, and while that is not a problem for most UNIX type OS enjoyers, that is a problem for your averige Joe. That might not be the crowd we’re trying to get off of MS and Apple products, but they still play an important role IMO, more of a guide as how a UI should look and feel to the average user. Linux and other UNIX based OSes kinda messed up with this one. Things are getting better though, have to say. I don’t use some of the UIs for stuff people usually do, but I have tried a few and I have to say that things are moving in the right direction the past few years. Just not fast enough…
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