Seriously read this, including the full report. It explains so much about this conflict.
perhaps you can understand how some of us would conclude that Israel might not care very much about Palestinian civilians
They care less about Palestinian civilians than they do about their own soldiers, but they care enough about them to invest massive amounts of resources into warning them, into getting aid to them and into getting them out of the parts of the strip that are most dangerous to them. That’s more than can be said about anyone else in this conflict. Is it perfect? Hell no, but nothing in this world is and nobody in their right mind would expect them to be perfect.
based on the sheer number of them they’ve killed to this point
We don’t even know how many have died. Seriously, we have zero clue, only made-up numbers from Hamas - who also don’t differentiate between civilian and military deaths, by the way - and rough estimates from everyone else. All we know for certain is that thousands have died. That’s it. It took Israel weeks to come up with the total death toll on their side after the October 7 massacres and that’s in a much more controlled environment, yet everyone immediately accepts whatever the “Gaza Health Ministry” under full Hamas control pumps out. I’ve lost count of how many have sent me articles from BBC, Reuters, NYT and whoever saying that they reported on the numbers and I should take them seriously and yet every single time, these articles cite the same Hamas organization or someone who cites them.
Again, this is a terrible war and thousands have dying in it, but it’s not just a war of bullets and bombs, but also one of information being used a weapon, including misinformation, like completely nonsensical comparisons that I debunked earlier. So many educated, well-meaning people appear to lose all sight of reason, anything resembling critical thinking skills in this and for what? Do any of these people really think that it actually helps Palestinians?
that it was militarily necessary to do that sort of damage even though it was inevitable large numbers of civilians would be caught in the crossfire?
I honestly don’t know, but I can guess why they are doing it that way. I read one report that in one suburb of Gaza City, almost half of all buildings were rigged with explosives by Hamas. In another place, there were traps using speakers that played children’s cries, in yet another location, Hamas used an old man as a suicide bomber. How do you fight in such an environment? Israel is choosing a cautious approach using air power and tanks, which limits the risk to their own soldiers - and successfully so, given the low death toll on their side we’ve seen. I totally get that they are prioritizing that over protecting civilians that have been taught from the crib to kill all Jews. Should they instead choose a riskier approach that might endanger their own people? I think every nation would prioritize their soldiers over civilians from the opposing side. It’s still awful, there’s no way around it, but seriously, what choice do they have? It’s just terrible options and those in charge in Israel have to pick the least terrible one.
in favor of Fatah who at least seem willing to work toward a peaceful resolution
Fatah has a “martyr’s fund” worth hundreds of millions that they use to pay out to the families of those who die in the fight against Israel, including members of Hamas. They paid millions to the families of terrorists who died during the October 7 attack.
Abbas literally has a PhD in Holocaust denial. Fatah are really no good options either and on top of that, they have zero credibility among Palestinians due to how ineffective and corrupt their government is.
and through selectively looking the other way when money and weapons are funneled through back-channels to the group
They also did it, because they thought they could pacify the group, make them interested in governing and enriching themselves instead of waging war. It seemed to have worked for a long time, as evidenced by billions siphoned off into in off-shore accounts, but hindsight is 20/20. The thing is though, there was significant international pressure against Israel to allow these funds into Gaza, including from foreign governments and humanitarian groups, many of which are now using the fact that the Israeli government permitted the transfer of these funds against it or are even frequently distorting it into “Israel funded Hamas” or “Israel created Hamas”.
Like I said, there are only terrible options. This seemed like the least terrible one at the time and since there are no magic wands, there are rarely ideal solutions.
So unguided rockets vaguely aimed at cities, suicide bombers (including the use of children and mentally impaired people as suicide bombers), random stabbings, random shootings are “armed struggle” now? The mere fact that they are using children, old and handicapped people as suicide bombers, including in this current conflict, shows that if there’s one side not valuing Palestinian life at all, it’s Palestinian leadership.
How on Earth do you deal with this kind of political leadership? It’s not just Hamas, that’s how all sorts of groups and Palestinian governments have fought for many decades. How do you achieve “long-term piece” in this kind of situation? Like I said, any kind of concession gets answered with violence and any past peace deal, including the last one that would have resulted in 95% of the West Bank in Palestinian hands, gets rejected by one side and one side only. The current settler problem wouldn’t even exist had Arafat not walked away from the Camp David summit after saying no to every proposal. He lived out his days as a billionaire though, so I guess we know why he did it. I guess he feared for this power and wealth, just like Hamas’ leadership with their billions. Gotta keep that conflict going so that aid comes in that they can then steal from the people right out in the open while delusional idealists - no offense - meander on about high-level concepts like apartheid and oppression, blind to the actual reality.
aren’t we like, three days removed from the IDF killing obviously surrendering Israeli civilians
We are a week removed from the IDF going forward and openly admitting to their soldiers having made a mistake and acting against both standard protocol and direct orders. As inexcusable as the conduct of the soldiers responsible for this is, the transparent and honest manner in which this incident was communicated to the public is exemplary. You are right that this does raise uncomfortable questions over how normal this kind of conduct of IDF soldiers is though.
the actual root of the problem
The actual root of the problem is that the UN came up with a flawed two-state plan for Palestine in 1947, one that Israel agreed with and the Arab nations didn’t, prompting them to fight a war over it. Which they lost, against a tiny isolated nation under a weapons embargo that literally had to salvage tanks from scrap yards as the attacking Arabs were using the latest gear. Then they tried a few times more, losing again every time and in between, various Palestinian groups have tried again and again to do their worst. Each time, they lose, each time, Palestinians lose territory and power as Israel gets stronger with each military victory, because that’s how wars have always worked. Arab nations also occupied Palestinian territory for decades, oppressing Palestinians there worse than Israel ever did, but that tends to get glossed over these days.
When Israel does actually make concessions, like when they pulled all settlers out of Gaza, invited tens of thousands of Palestinians to work for several times the wages they would get in Palestinian territories, they get thanked with more violence in return, showing the Israeli public that extending the hand does nothing to calm this conflict down, so with each terrorist attack, they shift further to the right politically, electing politicians who promise strength and keeping Palestinians at bay instead of compromising. That’s how you get injustices like indefinite detention of Palestinians. Cause and effect.
Do you even know that Israel was working on finalizing a deal for the Palestinians to get access to gas fields on the coast of Gaza, which would have given them energy independence and a huge influx in cash? Talks were ongoing until literally the day of the terrorist attack, but now it’ll never happen.
Those conflicts all took place over years. The Israel war on Gaza is blowing through the roof the rate of civilian deaths
Yes, because this is a high-intensity conflict. Small area, lots of fighting and, unlike in most other conflicts, one side is doing everything to get the civilian death toll on “their side” as high as possible by hiding their military infrastructure behind civilians, stealing supplies and preventing people from leaving. Hamas didn’t even build any bomb shelters for ordinary people even though they knew Israel would answer their massacres with bombings.
the level of indiscriminate targeting of civilians and infrastructure
If they are targeting civilians, then why are they warning them?
Doesn’t make any sense. If they were actually out to murder civilians, they’d certainly not be doing this and they’d also not need more than one bomb to kill a single Palestinian.
And yeah, of course infrastructure gets targeted in a war, because how else would you cripple the enemy’s ability to sustain a fight, but that’s not indiscriminate, because you can’t indiscriminately target things. Either you target things, then it’s not indiscriminate, or you are just lobbing bombs indiscriminately, but then you are not targeting things. Sorry to be all pedantic, but please at least try to use the most generic buzz words in this conflict in a reasonably logically consistent manner.
The conflicts you mention are largely Civil Wars
This isn’t? If you support the whole “From the River to the Sea” nonsense, and it looks like you do, then this is one divided country in the midst of a civil war.
total deaths of the conflict (as you do not share any sources).
Probably/hopefully too high, but the truth is that nobody knows, except that the number of verified deaths are only a small fraction of the total in Ukraine. There are so many places in Ukraine that were simply wiped out - with no warnings for civilians, nor escape routes, unlike in Gaza.
Speaking of nobody knows, the fog of war in the Israeli-Hamas war is just as thick. The only numbers people are repeating all over, including most self-proclaimed experts and politicians, are those released by Hamas, who have every interest in the world to paint a picture as horrific as possible in order to put international pressure on Israel to end a war Hamas started so that Hamas can regroup and do the same thing all over again, as they have repeatedly announced.
Knowingly or unknowingly, you and so many other people are carrying water for this terror organization. What we should do is support Israel in the eradication of Hamas while also getting as much help to the civilians caught in the crossfire as possible and put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages and surrender. The shorter this war is, the fewer people on both sides will suffer. For as flawed as Israel is, especially with the current government in charge, they are still the least flawed nation/group in the entire Middle East. Very low bar, I know, but that’s as good as it gets. Have you ever thought how your country, no matter where you are from, would have reacted to an event like October 7? Even some bastion of democracy and freedom like Denmark would have probably done the same if not worse as Israel in response. This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t keep a watchful eye on this (hard not to, given the number of journalists per square meter over there) and influence Israel into fighting this war as humanely as possible, but again, let’s not get hysterical.
They have, since they invaded Ukraine, moved units away from the Finnish and other borders to throw them into the meat grinder. This even includes missile units from Kaliningrad that were used as part of their nuclear deterrent.
Gaza is not even remotely the densest city in the world. There are several cities in Israel alone that are denser.
Also, yeah, the death toll among civilians is a tiny fraction of that in these cities during WW2 despite similar levels of destruction, which does support the claim that Israel is actually warning people.
Single mothers in particular used to have a hard time in the past, not just due to the economic challenge, but also due to government harassment. I recall reading an article about how they routinely had their children taken away in 1950s and '60s West Germany, with the kids being forced to grow up in often abusive church-run orphanages. I don’t think Germany was the exception in this regard.
My own father was put in such a place for just a few days when his married mother was hospitalized and his father was unable to care for the toddler due to his work. He still has nightmares about the abuse he had to endure from the nuns there.
It has resulted in level of destruction (e.g. 60% of homes damaged) that hasn’t existed since WW2.
You need to ignore lots of wars to come to this conclusion. Korea would be one immediately after WW2 that makes this one look like child’s play. More recently, the wars in Chechnya, the Syrian civil war, the Sudanese civil war, the civil war in Myanmar, etc. pp. are all vastly more destructive. There is a single death camp in Syria where Assad had up to 13,000 people murdered.
The sheer percentages of children being killed versus adults (nevermind combatants), is just staggering.
Could this be, because Hamas produces fake numbers to weaponize outrage against Israel? Read this:
Israel is not the ones supplying those resources anyways, other countries are, and Israel is blocking them.
Nonsense. Israel was supplying a significant portion of the strip’s power and electricity, as well as bringing in regular supplies of fuel and food. They stopped this on October 7. Israel has since continued this, even though they are not obliged, and also permitted foreign aid through the border crossing with Egypt. Meanwhile, Hamas have openly stolen a significant portion of these supplies, which is the actual reason why Israel stopped them in the first place. Hamas are the ones stealing from civilians and causing their suffering.
water infra and power plants
There’s only one power plant in Gaza, but you seem to have adopted the Hamas method of just making things up for outrage. I guess it’s rubbing off on you. As for the water infrastructure, do I need to remind you that Hamas is using water pipes to create unguided rockets to fire at Israeli population centers? That’s the actual indiscriminate bombing that few people are willing to talk about.
Why even have stipulations about war crimes, since apparently no one in a warzone can expect not to be killed indiscriminately anyways?
These rules are meant to not encourage the use of human shields, because this turns every group of civilians into a potential target. This isn’t difficult to understand - or at least it shouldn’t be. Many of the regulations of the Geneva Conventions are the least terrible solutions to awful questions. That’s sadly how the world works.
Hamas doesn’t “operate” from the 60% of residential buildings that have been damaged in Gaza
In a single so-called refugee camp in Northern Gaza (it’s a normal suburb with houses - it merely inherited the status due to unique UN rules that solely exist for Palestinians and no other people), almost half of all buildings were rigged with explosives. I’m sure whenever Hamas blows one of these up, it gets added to the amount blamed on Israel, just like when one of the 20% of rockets fired from Gaza falls on Gaza instead of hitting a random target in Israel.
Israel has shown no evidence
Here’s a video that shows rockets being launched right from the middle of a refugee camp:
That’s just one of countless pieces of evidence that you choose to ignore in favor of that one-sided victim narrative of yours.
and in fact has been shown to have been dead wrong with their claims, such as at al-Shifa
You mean where they found weapons and a tunnel with an armored door with a firing port? That one? Or the al-Shifa hospital where a surveillance camera recording shows terrorists bringing in a hostage? Or was that a different al-Shifa?
Simply having your soldiers live somewhere doesn’t make it a valid target, otherwise the rocket attacks into Israel are all justified too.
I can tell you are not even trying to argue in good faith.
your country’s claims
I’m not Israeli.
half-baked justifications
At least I’m not ignoring evidence that is right in the open.
Let me ask you this: How should Israel have reacted to the terror attack on October 7? What would, in your eyes, an appropriate, justified response look like? Please be honest.
I don’t think you are aware of just how small this war is in terms of death toll compared to other wars that are currently going on. There is however a disproportionate number of articles (and thus also journalists) covering it:
This doesn’t meant that one should discard the suffering of the civilians caught in the crossfire. It’s horrible and I weep for every innocent who has to suffer because of the decision a small number of terrorists made - but it’s one thing to acknowledge that they died in this conflict and demand both parties to protect civilians and another entirely to claim that Israel is responsible for a record number of war crimes. Not every dead civilian is a war crime. Neither is not supplying your enemy with resources nor is bombing civilian infrastructure that is being used for military purposes. These safe zones were also established to protect civilians from the bulk of the ground fighting. At no point did Israel make the unrealistic promise that they would be safe from bombs. Given that Hamas operates from there and uses these places to stage massed unguided rocket attacks against civilians in Israel, this would be entirely unrealistic. Nobody in their right mind would deny Israel the right to strike these targets. You would do the same if you were in their place.