Firstly, thank you so much for providing the means for me to cut Reddit out of my life, I feel like I’m engaging with content in a much more deliberate way since, and honestly it’s been a massive improvement to my mental health in a way that I was completely oblivious to there even being a problem before.
Anyway, the question—regarding things happening entirely out of your control, what would be the best and worst things that could happen to lemmy from your perspectives? And as an extension, what are your goals for it?
The best thing would be if Reddit goes the way of Digg. Seems that will happen sooner or later. The worst thing, maybe if funding stops and we are unable to keep working on Lemmy. But even then admins could still host Lemmy instances.
The best thing would be if Reddit goes the way of Digg.
Well, it has already. The only reason it hasn’t fully imploded & all the users deserted for another site, is because there wasn’t an equivalent place to go to.
They were sort of parallel in development but digg blew up and Reddit didn’t then Digg took a quick hard turn towards enshitification.
Reddit has done the enshitification but like a parasitic infected spider, it’s wandering about and most of the users haven’t realised yet that it’s an empty shell.
It’s slow demise would be better in the long run than a quick collapse like Diggs so it’s now putrid culture is not transmitted with an enmass exodus.
Thx! Its pretty wild to me how much these algorithms, and formats, affect our mental well-being. Those giant US tech companies employing Psychology PhDs to figure out how to keep people angry, engaged, and watching ads, is doing so much harm to so many people, not just in the US, but the whole world, and unfortunately very few countries are doing enough to protect their people from these companies (who also act as surveillance arms of the US state) by blocking facebook and the rest.
I’ve seen two professors I respected turn into angry children on twitter, in a way that would never happen in real life. Reddit, twitter, and Youtube platform reactionary rage-bait to get people trapped in a downward spiral of negativity. These companies do not care how much damage they do; all that matters to them is their profits.
We don’t have those same incentive structures, so we can and should be doing everything we can to make this a positive and enjoyable experience, not about arguing constantly, but about learning, laughing, and understanding.
what would be the best and worst things that could happen to lemmy from your perspectives? And as an extension, what are your goals for it?
The best thing would be that we continue our slow and steady growth. Every user that migrates away from big tech to the fediverse is victory, so while we shouldn’t emphasize growth at any cost, its still a good thing when we can get people away from all that negativity.
The biggest concern for me about Lemmy, would be a centralization onto one big server, that tries to replicate all the worst things and behaviors about reddit: its combativeness, xenophobia, bigotry, pro-US-foreign policy agendas, and advertising. There is a noticeable chunk of Lemmy’s users who don’t really see any problem with those things, they just want a reddit that lets them use 3rd party apps again.
There are different software that could help this happen but I’m not sure how they’d handle all of lemmy’s content
There is Gun.js and OrbitDB (OrbitDB runs on IPFS using Helia)
and there is FreeNet which allows hosting of freesites on their network if you have something downloaded to your computer.
Some of the problems could be mitigated by volunteers running relay nodes hosting the kind of content they want to stay up (this would work with Gun.js and OrbitDB since it allows subscribing to specific data) or just general relay nodes that gives the network more capacity (this would be the method if you are working with FreeNet)
Again not sure how easy or hard this would be so I hope the developers share their thoughts.
Edit: When I say relay nodes hosting I don’t mean they have control over the data but instead keeps the data online. The data is still stored on the users own device and is shared between users if both are online at the same time.
There is a ton of decentralized projects that no one has really ever heard of, new ones pop up all the time (I was watching multiple of them in the past). Sadly in most cases it seems like most authors stop working on their projects after a while.
The same ideas have existed for a long time but both decade old projects (ever heard of Freenet? Probably no) and new ones . Many of them are very ambitious and try to replace huge swaths of things (not just file storage but also social aspects, web of trust, etc) but then collapse under the complexity. IPFS is the most well known new project and (good imo) has limited its scope, but sadly (still) suffers from huge scalability issues, some of which are deep in the design.
I think it’s really hard to align incentives there - the nicer it is the harder it is to make money with it. So either these projects tend towards control by one entity or they tend towards death.
Really the only one that seems to have a long lasting life so far is torrents. Which are amazing. And Email if you want to count that.
Torrents are truly one of the best inventions of the internet.
They’ve fully solved the static data distribution problem, in a way that’s resilient and practical. I do a few torrent-related side projects, and I’m also super-interested in how we could integrate them into lemmy UIs and apps in order to take on YouTube.
I’m fed up to shit with youtube’s bullshit. Between their excessive advertising, unmoderated comments and far-right bias I want so bad to leave that shit and never come back.
When and how are you going to address the thousands of open issues in the Github repository, that contain UI bugs, missing error messages (something looks as if it was sent for example if you send a direct message with too many characters, but actually isn’t), backend issues and other assorted bugs?
When we have about a dozen more developers. So far only dessalines and i work on Lemmy fulltime, and besides solving issues we also have to review pull requests, prepare releases and much more. So its just not enough time to keep up with all the new issues let alone resolve the whole backlog.
Thank you. A follow-up question: You sound like most things have to be done by full-time developers. Is there a healthy open-source community around Lemmy development? Do people submit enough pull-requests to fix bugs? Do people from the community contribute a substancial amount? features?
We’re no different from 99% of open source projects: there are a lot of one-off contributors that just do a feature or two they’d like to have, but the vast majority of work is done by a handful of core devs. This is why you should always base your infrastructure and decisions to support those devs, rather than cater to one-off contributors.
I hope those wants and needs aren’t mutually exclusive. I think most open source projects do a good job in catering for both. I’m not involved in Lemmy development so I don’t really know what’s going on here. But I’ve sent one-off contribution to various projects, sometimes contributed single features or helped to sort something out. It always felt appreciated.
Sure, a drive-by commit every now and then and no responsibility is a completely different level than maintaining a (large) project and putting in that effort and dedication. I think a healthy open source project has both. Maintenance and the responsibility/decisions by a core team. And the community contributions make up by adding diversity, being close to what the user needs and adding manpower by a larger group of people, meaning the individual contributions might be smaller, but by many more people. Good communication between the devs and the community usually helps to get quality contributions.
Of course contributions by volunteers are also welcome. However there are very few of those who are consistently contributing (particularly phiresky and sleepless one mentioned in op). And because they have a fulltime job their contributions are much smaller than mine or dessalines’. After the Reddit migration lots of people opened pull requests to implement new features, but most of them were abandoned after noticing how much work it takes to address review comments and actually get the pr merged. So fulltime devs seem very much preferable because they can put their full attention to Lemmy, and get a lot more done.
The fact that there is no boss telling me what to work on. Instead I get to decide myself whats most important. Last year before the Reddit migration I was temporarily working for a company, and it was extremely demotivating to be told how to do every little thing as if I were a junior developer.
As a software dev, mainly that people enjoy using it.
99% of the proprietary software work I did for companies was work that was societally useless, and eventually thrown in the trash. Here I get to make software that improves peoples lives in a tiny way, and is a form of social media that hopefully 🤞 doesn’t destroy people’s mental well-being: is easy to put down, and enjoyable to use.
Instance owners currently gets notified when someone has reported a user for spamming or trolling, but frequently it’s a user that is not on his instance, so he can’t do anything about it. Wouldn’t it be better if instance owners got notified only when they can take actual action (like the user being registered on their instance)?
I have seen this first hand. I think when someone hits report it needs to go to the moderator of the community. From there the mod should be able to forward it to where it needs to go.
Instance admins should be able to intersect this process.
There’s some more context for this in this issue, and we each have different views on it, because there are tradeoffs no matter what.
My personal view (based on experience modding and admin’ing), is that we should prioritize handling a report ASAP, by the first eyeballs that see it, rather than whose jurisdiction it is. On all but the largest communities, admins are generally more active, and more likely to see the report and take action on it.
If you’ve been following our code commits / PRs, we’ve been adding a lot of mod tools improvements not just lately, but over lemmy’s entire life. I would even go so far as to say we have the strongest mod tools of any project in the fediverse, all the more necessary for us because of the community-focus.
Instance owners currently gets notified when someone has reported a user for spamming or trolling, but frequently it’s a user that is not on his instance, so he can’t do anything about it. Wouldn’t it be better if instance owners got notified only when they can take actual action (like the user being registered on their instance)?
Instance admins are responsible for what content their users see, so if a troll is visible to their users and ruining their day, then it should be taken care of everywhere necessary.
Overkill for me, but to me Motorhead’s also one of those singles-type bands where the songs kind of stand individually great on their own, rather than the album. So I usually just relisten to a ~40 song greatest hits of theirs.
Looking at my most playeds: Radiohead, Bjork, NIN, Sigur Ros, GYBE, the War on Drugs, Soundgarden, Smiths / Morrissey, Blondie, Calexico, Talk Talk, Aimee Mann, Public Enemy, RATM, M83, Pavement, Explosions in the Sky, Sufjan, Pumpkins, Tallest Man on Earth, Andrew Bird, Massive attack, Soda Stereo, Yes.
What could be done to improve interoperability between federated platforms?
mainly talking about Mastodon since it is the biggest one.
I have seen the Peertube dev is quite nice and approachable. And willing to improve the experience cross-platform.
Have you tried to approach @Gargron? Is he willing to contribute? How could we get Mastodon to improve the user experience with federated content, eg. communities and article posts?
While I agree with the content of that article I don’t know if we should give up on Eugen just yet. The Mastodon team has not disclosed what their plan is regarding the groups rework currently on the mastodon roadmap. There is an old proposal here, but I think we have good reason to believe that implementation will be revisited. To that end, it is very important to advocate for the adoption of FEP-1b12 which is the standard that Lemmy uses.
It may also be a good idea to advocate for the adoption of FEP-d36d both here and on lemmy. This is a standard for group-to-group following. Effectively allowing communities to subscribe to other communities.
Mastodon’s main dev isn’t really open. Have a look at the “Ego” part of this article
That article was over 5 years ago now. I would expect that there has been massive change now that Mastodon is way more popular, and the project is way more involved. Also, blocks and mutes do work now.
Interoperability is great, but sadly there isn’t really any organized group effort to standardize more aspects / extensions of ActivityPub. AP is really “thin” in that it barely prescribes anything. There’s not even a test suite to test whether software complies to the spec of AP.
So everyone kind of does their own thing, and fixes interoperability on a case-by-case basis. This makes it kinda frustrating to spend time on - lemmy already has special cases for many different softwares (peertube, mastodon, …) and every one increases the complexity.
There are such efforts on SocialHub and on a W3C mailing list. However devs of major Fediverse projects are rarely active there, because they are all busy working on their own software.
There have been lots of compatibility improvements with Mastodon from our side. However Mastodon seems to have almost no interest to make improvements from their side. I dont think there is much we can do about that, in the end project maintainers always care about their own users most.
With dansup there was some communication years ago, but it seems he lost interest in Lemmy.
Well I am not 100% sure on what the best method would be.
I think the addition of letting moderators see who is voting on what posts is a nice addition since they would tend to be closer to where the content is.
More generally I was thinking about creating a dashboard that gave the admins statistics about that user.
Similar to how we as users can see how many comments and posts any user makes, it might be useful to allow admins to see statistics about which communities the user interacts with or some rudimentary similarity score with other users?
These are some ideas I thought of on the fly and have not thought about the implications but the gist is something that allows the admins to get a better understanding of what is going on from like a bird eye’s view.
Hrm… I remember my time as a reddit mod, community statistics were very useful in making mod decisions. But that was only because reddit hosts so many vile communities, which isn’t a problem we really have at the moment.
Registration applications, and user reports are the best way to handle trolls. The first stops 90% of them, the second means we can ban and remove all their spam at the click of a button.
I don’t see how you could prematurely know about spammers or trolls until someone reports them. We don’t plan on adding any text-analyzing AI or anything like that into lemmy’s codebase.
I don’t see how you could prematurely know about spammers or trolls until someone reports them.
I don’t think you can. My suggestion was more focused on how admins make decisions after a report. Right now they have to do a manual scan of the person’s comment history and that is the part I find inefficient. If it was possible to just show extra high level information on the user it might make it easier for the admin to make a decision.
We don’t plan on adding any text-analyzing AI or anything like that into lemmy’s codebase.
Yeah using AI to try and analyze comments would be overkill and probably prone to manipulation anyways.
Edit: I’m sorta talking more specifically towards banning a user or seeing if what a user is doing is a repeated pattern.
I don’t think there’s a way you could avoid going into their history. I do that as an admin to verify that the account in question is indeed repeatedly breaking rules. I’m open to suggestions tho.
First of thanks a lot for the effort that you put into creating lemmy. You have created a really friendly and welcoming place!
I have a question regarding licenses. When you started developing lemmy, what were the reasons for your choice of the AGPL? As you are marxist-leninists, did you also look into other licenses like the the Anti-Capitalist Software License?
To me, AGPL is the most pragmatic choice. As a hard copy-left license, it enforces derivative works to adopt the same license, unlike the more open and “soft” copy-left licenses that let corporations capture and digitally enclose your labor as they see fit.
AGPL was already used by most existing Fediverse platforms, and ensures that all code changes need to be published. Its basically an improvement over GPL which also takes effect when the software is hosted on a server, not running on the user’s computer.
The Anti-Capitalist Software License is not an open source software license.
Where is the best place to propose new features for Lemmy?
Edit: And as potential follow-up, where is the best place on Lemmy to propose new features for Lemmy? (Not every Lemmy user has or wants a GitHub account)
if you don’t want to make a github account, then probably !lemmy
but you can still search and read the github issues without making an account, so you could check if it already exists, or link the issue if you’re starting a lemmy discussion about it
Is federated authentication being considered for the future? The federated model of the fediverse is great, but it runs into problems when instances “die”, you want to access different servers as they federate with different things, etc. leading to the need of having multiple accounts. If there were a decentralized network of auth servers, could use the same credentials everywhere.
No, Activitypub isn’t based on a migrating authentication / single-sign-on model, but on server-to-server communication.
Instances with many users already on them dying should be a rare occurrence, and its unfortunate that it happens not just for us, but in the whole fediverse.
also people should search the issues on github, a few of these questions already have issues filed with discussions in them, put a thumbs up on a github issue if it’s something you want
We want to change the API paths to make them more consistent, and have separate endpoints for image uploads (eg POST /api/v3/account/avatar). Not much else really.
I’m sry I can’t give a good answer there… but to me it seems like when we go a certain length of time (not sure how long) without any breaking changes. That will have proven that the API as it exists is stable and well-formed.
That seems a long way off atm, because of all the features and new fields we’ve been adding and modifying on existing data structures.
They stay in the bunker except for emergencies like facebooks threats.net . You get to drive one when you can recite the first section of the communist manifesto from memory.
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