People. Way too many people are fake Christians that act differently than what they should. But as long as they go to church every Sunday, they believe they are a good person. You don’t need a book or the threat of hell to treat people how you would want to be treated.
That plus having faith in stories of a 2000 year old book written and re-written by humans. Just doesn’t make sense.
I befriended a lawyer in a online game years ago. When he found out I took the bible literally, we had debates about it, and he’d break down some of the passages in Revelations and try to get me to justify stuff like dragons. It opened my eyes to how ridiculous some things were, and how there was a reason one of the first things we were taught (Baptist) was not to question anything.
How it seems every religion believes they’re the “One True” religion, and the whole rest of the world is wrong. How throughout history, it’s fueled wars, and been used as a method to control people more than a way to help people.
How some priests garb themselves in expensive robes and surround themselves with gold or drive luxury cars, or preach on TV from practically a stadium while passing around the donations plate through a crowd of poor people while promising a afterlife gated by pearls.
I’ll stop here but yeah. It was actually a pretty devastating realisation for me, as religion was a huge part of my life up to that point.
I am involved with a bunch of atheist social groups. In my very anecdotal not scientific observations I have noticed that Muslims have the hardest deconversions. Any thoughts on that? Also is there anything I can do when I meet ex-muslims to help?
In my experience one of the problems is that Turkish society is based so much in religion meaning like you are seen like a deviant or something by people around you when you say “fuck that” about religion. When I was younger another thing that I found shitty was the double standards of people when you try to vent on the internet. ex-christians are allowed to say “fuck christianity” and people will show solidarity but whenever I said “Islam is maybe bad?” People called me an islamaphobe, that closed me off for a while about talking about religion. Both of these peoblems were mostly things that bothered me when I just left religion and nowadays I am more at peace with myself and with people I care about around me. what you can do is probs show them solidatity and understanding.
In the end, I had a 2 pages-document of pros and cons for leaving church…
Some of them:
If I wasn’t part of Christianity and had the choice to join, would I do it? No.
The scandals
Their actions to keep the scandals under the radar which made it even worse
Wasted money in Germany. A bishop in Germany bought a bathtub for 15k €. That’s a prominent case, but there are a lot more
The fact that the church is literally a throttle of evolution.
Still no equality between men and women (I’m sure, they’ll do that at some point. But it’s the church. So, it’s gonna take 600 years)
No proof of existence of a god or whatever
There are n religions saying, their god is the real one. At least n-1 of them must be wrong.
Only 3-5% of the money you pay as a member via taxes goes to charity (in Germany)
The “Bistum Köln” in Germany has so much money… They started investing it and bought shares of companies.
I became a member of a religion when I was < 1 year old. I confirmed it when I was 13??? Most other live-relevant decisions are 18+. This should be the same here.
Religion lessons in school felt like a waste of time
Church is a black box. No one knows what they are actually doing, how much money they own, …
Church has an own “justice system” in Germany, which is terrible.
Most Christians prefer not acting christian when they are challenged.
I didn’t want to finance an Anti-LGBT group
Ratlines, a.k.a. “How the church helped Nazis to escape Europe after WW2”
… and 10 more points.
Also, I found only 3 or 4 very bad arguments to not quit
And when I realized that the only thing keeping me in there is “fearing” how some people (mostly family) might react when I’d quit, I knew, I had to quit as soon as possible.
Oh wow, I never wrote my reasoning down, but most of your points hit home. Churches guilt people to stay in, and if the collective sees one escaping from the doctrine, they “dispatch” those who are fearful to try to instill the same on you.
I do believe though that church and religion kept communities and societies together, quelling some of the human fear of the uncertainties of life, so there is some value there, but just not for those of us that see all of these cons you listed.
First drop of doubt for me began at a Wednesday youth service. Not only was I such a strong believer that I went to church in the middle of the week, I drove myself because I was the only one in my family who wanted to go. The youth minister was giving a class on cults and the more he spoke the more it sounded like my entire life was being part of a cult. Following that thread led to me finally admitting to myself that I don’t believe anymore about 6 years later. It was a long road with lots of doubt and denial but that one sermon on how to identify a cult woke me tf up.
The first thing was how the catholic church handled the sex abuse allegations.
The second thing was how they taught that the Bible was “the literal word of God”, then changed church doctrine away from the Bible whenever it suited them.
The third thing was how, when my son died at 15, everyone was ok with that being “part of God’s plan”. What the fuck kind of God has a plan that requires 15 year olds to die?
That’s actually hilarious. By all accounts, religions are definitionally cults. Though colloquially we tend to define cults as ‘dangerous’, even though there are many cults which are arguably more tame than some ‘religions’.
That was basically the answer he gave me when I asked what separated us from a cult. He must have forgotten all the evil done in the Christian God’s name because Christianity also has a history of being dangerous.
I kept asking for supernatural things to happen, or to win something like a small school lottery. The fact nothing happened, let alone a clear punishment, did disappoint me.
When I discovered that Santa was fake was when my faith started to really crumble.
Sometimes listening to the Pastors speak gives me a nice sensation on the back of my neck. I later discovered ASMR. I sometimes still listen to old religious people speak, but I’m not actually paying attention.
Here’s the real reasons why:
Finding too many things I disagreed with or did not understand from the text.
Having a religious preacher fail to explain them to me.
Discovering other religions exist.
Learning what a cult is and making 1:1 comparisons to most religious entities.
TLDR: i did rational thinking due to my scepticisms and stopped believing.
I was born into a middle-class Hindu family in South India. Being from south we werent much religious to begin with. But my mother side of family was tad bit more religious than my fathers side of family. Usually during temple festivals, prior to the main day they would have “parayanas” or like preaching equivalent. Its basically retelling of stories from ramayana or bhagavad gitas and other literature. This guy who will tell the stories does good job at that, in the sense that his aim is to tell us the morals and the leasons we need to learn from it and to not take the story in literal sense. Those were good, those stories did help me have a strong moral compass growing up and instilled a good sense of religion.
When i hit puberty i was still religious, not overly but somewhat in the middle between the level of religion of my father and mother. My mother being slightly more religious and still following “andhavishwas” (read blind belief) which were stuff that people tell you to do or not do. Many of those stuffs do not make any sense, some example which i could think are
to not go out at sandhya (dusk) time when the ritual lamp is lit
to not have a bath at dusk time
to not shake your legs when sitting on chairs or beds.
to not eat anything with oil in food if there was a death in the family (not just close family but extended one too) for the next 18 days
to not get out of house unless for emergencies if there was a death in the family (same) for the next 7 days.
to not apply oil to hair while looking at mirror
And other countless many more stuff which differ from region to region. No one really followed most of this stuff but stuff like this is probably something most Hindu’s probably heard if they have atleast an elder in their family or extended family. Many of this stuff even though not strictly enforced is really annoying cause you get that stare or long advice like why it should be followed from your elder or your mother(in my case). Do understand that its not just these i listed but many many stuff which effects even day to day quality of life. Seeing my christian neighbour and friend not having such restriction on till how much time they were allowed to play outside and lousy me who had to drag my ass inside my home before dusk was always something which bothered me but it was not even a reson to forsake hinduism entirely. But i did try to find rational answers to why those were not permitted, why i should not do something because someone told someone and that someone said the same to their next generation and so on. I did find the reason for some of them eventually before i was 13 or something, for the examples listed if anyone is still reading and curious (or else skip to next para),
I believe the ritual lamp litting thing comes from early age practice of humans lighting fire to keep animals or other things out (Hindus believe lighting lamp will clear out negative energy)
once early humans have lit fire at dusk they stop going ut for resource and wind up with the day, they wont bath since most often ponds or water bodies will often be a little farther from their settlements and its a risk going out to bath at night. That might explain the restriction to not bath at night time.
for point 3, early hindus used to keep jars, baranis (a type of ritual jar) specifically underneath bed or below tables. Shaking your legs would probably hit those jars and it may have been something made up to protect those jars.
for point 4 and 5, i think it was safety practice. In early days a death in the family would mean they have had disease. And since early village hindus life was centered around temples, preventing people from family which recent death would prevent spread of disease. And avoiding oil food comes from this same belief as often oily food are avoided when one is sick. As for the oil on hair in front of mirror, i seriously have zero clue.
Reasoning with my mother over these stuffs was like reasoning with a brick lol. These stuffs never really did affect my stand on religion though, only just snags which made me question stuffs which elders say. When i was 16-17 is when i started doubting my religion. Hinduism sure is the oldest religion and many stuffs in hindusim are borrowed by other other religion like atma and jeeva and tree of life (notice atma and jeeva sounding similar to adam and eve) and the story of manu rishi who took the advice from a fish that the world is going to be flooded and who built a boat. These and many other stories or their equivalent being found in other religion made me think at that time that possibly other religions might have cultural exchanges with Hinduism at some point and may have based their religion of them. As i was a Hindu then I respected other religion,but this realisation made me a bit at unease because at that time it bothered me that not much people were talking about it, but the similarities were many. This made me again look for other similarities, i read about the mahabharatha epic again and the ramayana, this is when thesame rational side i had when i was debunking those “andhavishwas” kicked in.
How the hell could any of those stories be true, an epic on that scale would leave evidences that not even a million year could cover up. And the timelines, those are way off. There is no way we did have that much advancement in the early age and still be a monacrchy based rule . Someone really took their creative lberty and created a fantastic epic story to teach the importance of Truth and morals. And someone took that story and made it a religion refined over thousands of years and still refined even today.
As a lot of these stuffs made me sceptic i began to really see them as stories and fables just something to teach morals and values. I realised most of the limitation that were sett on my life were self bound.
Any last sense of religion i had was lost when i was 20 years old seeing the bullshits happening around the world, even on my locality. Politicians and many so called “peoples leaders” down in north India and other parts doing genocides and atrocities that i would do anything to dissociate myself from them on any similarity i have with them. People destroying mosques, cow vigilantism in north, mob lynching, caste bullshit. None of these are lessons from Hinduism but these people are hiding in its cover and associating how they live and what they do with them, inspiring and conditioning childrens to grow up believing it is what hinduism is. If there ever was a god, that god is dead.
I stopped believing in Hinduism as a religion with that and consider myself an atheists (i have a atheist friend who claim i am not a true atheists, but i dont want to dwell on proper term which best describes me). But i do still believe on some of the morals and lesson in truth it had given me and thats all i keep from Hinduism. Never prayed, lit a lamp, or went to a temple ever since then.
When my pastor told me the earth was 2000 years old but he still uses gasoline made from prehistoric plants didn’t help much to keep me there and that dinosaurs aren’t real, along with science being the main enemy.
Sect/cult stuff. Rules did not add up. Stuff contradicting each other. The people were all preachy hypocrites. They’d go out of their way to twist a law of physics to their narrative. For example, “spiritual vibrations” in sound and radiation. Religion was used to control me. Quackery, conspiricy theories and mlm schemes everywhere. Broke free over time.
I grew up being put in Sunday school for daycare and all the stories they told us sounded completely over the top ridiculous.
The story of Job made my fuckin blood boil as an 8 year old because I could immediately make the connection that god just took everything from this man to win a bet.
God, the all loving all knowing all powerful god. Tortured a man to prove a point.
And not just to prove a point in general but to prove a point to his literal arch nemesis.
Basically Satan tricked god into torturing this man and that was all the info I needed to know god is bullshit.
I was raised a specific way with Christianity at the core of it. My mom was Catholic but didn't really practice, my dad's side had a history of church leadership, but it skipped a generation. Both of them went to a revival right before having kids. By the time I was born and aware, they were very dedicated members of a local Baptist church.
I wasn't allowed to read comics, watch most TV, listen to most music. I couldn't watch most movies, we didn't have cable, we didn't have internet, so I was stuck thinking this is just the way it was.
Even inside the church, I wasn't allowed to play with certain kids, talk to certain adults. I wasn't allowed to talk with girls... A lot of stuff I wasn't allowed or supposed to do.
I was ADHD and an Aspie, but my family didn't really like that kind of medicine so I never took anything. High expectations to meet, and constant disappointment in my failure to meet them.
Nonetheless, I believed the Bible, in God, in Jesus. I listened to the teachings and stories. I learned what I was supposed to be as a Christian: good, kind, caring, putting others first, denying yourself, etc. and I thought that was great. It made me very understanding of others, listening to them and meeting them where they were. It made me generous and kind, offering help with no hope for reward or return. I didn't mind that I never got my way, was always wanting more... That didn't matter, my reward would come later, just like the Bible said.
~
Enter Obama. While I was excited about the advent of a new president but wasn't yet old enough to vote, politics started to creep into religion. People blamed him and Democrats for everything, while reverting to scriptures and other doctrines to say why. After a soul searching moment related to the legalization of gay marriage, I realized that what the government did wasn't at all pertinent or related to the church.
The pastor I had at the time navigated this issue with finesse and grace. He called on our church members to follow the basics: the Bible applies to Christians, not non believers. And believers or not, we should treat everyone with kindness and love. Needless to say, he got subtly pressured to leave over the next year or so. I appreciate him a lot for speaking up and asking for love in a time of growing hatred. Last I heard he became a sports coach for a high school, living the example of showing love by doing, not saying.
~
After that, with Trump on the horizon... My church devolved into the cesspool of trying to reunite religious law with common law. They wanted to outlaw gays because "the Bible says so". They wanted to stop abortion because "the Bible says so". They wanted to get rid of all the immigrants... Because the Bible said so? No, beyond those two points the Bible and Jesus were left behind, and instead the hatred started to pour out of these people. There was no love, it was only hatred and spite and fear. Trusting in God meant voting Republican. Doing his will was reduced to wearing red hats and saying "Lets Go Brandon". Spending money on improving the nation and it's inhabitants was socialism, the very enemy of the American people...
And it was at that point I realized that the religion I was taught as a kid, of love and kindness to all mankind at your own expense... Was gone. You didn't need religion to be a good person and to help others. Religion was being used like a crowbar in the gears of our democracy. And it seemed to be used similarly everywhere else, too.
I had better access to the internet, interacted with more people, and found that my suffering as a kid came from a denial of science by my parents, and holding me to restrictions in the name of faith that did nothing but damage my growth.
~
I like Jesus, the concepts, the teachings, the story. And wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone who claimed to live in his name acted to his example? But nobody really does. I've been spending more time attempting to deprogram myself from religion and faith recently, because I'm pretty sure a day will come where that classic scenario would happen: someone will hold a gun to my head and ask if I believe. But it's not going to be some godless terrorist bent on eradicating the "good news". It'll be some proud American patriot with Fox News pouring from his headphones, following his Republican Party's call to action, killing those who don't believe in what he does because he's been told that's the only way he's getting heaven on earth.
And despite whatever I may think, that day I'll gladly say I no longer believe.
You pretty much nailed it. The teachings of Jesus are pretty great. Most important law there is? Love God and your Neighbor (okay I combined them but that’s what Jesus meant anyways). Jesus lived that way. You’d find him hanging out with the rejects of society, the ill, the prostitutes, etc. He wanted to raise the floor of society. He also was for separation of church and state. “Hey Jesus, you’ve got this new kingdom thing going on, do we have to pay taxes to the king anymore?” “Yes, give your king what’s his, and give to God what’s his.”
But somehow these days it’s all about how you can word the Bible to help further your hatred. “Hey this one passage says if a man lays with a guy (boy? We aren’t 100% on that translation), he should be stoned, so that means we should hate the gays!”. Nope. Go back and read what Jesus was all about. Love your neighbor. Most important thing!
I can’t really proudly call myself Christian, because I don’t really fit the current model of that. I barely attend church, I don’t hate any group. In fact I find all lifestyles fascinating and valuable. I accept all religions too. Your Buddhist? Cool. Tell me about it. Muslim? Awesome. You guys have some cool thoughts on giving to the poor (2% of your assets! Imagine if billionaires did that!). If Christianity is the correct religion, and Jesus is the only way into heaven, why can’t he talk to these people after death and decide then? I find it hard to say the Jesus recorded in the Bible would be like “you were good to everyone and a light in this world, but… You were Jewish so off to hell with you for all eternity!”
It’s nice to live this way accepting everyone. I think the only reason I accept that I am still Christian is because I think this is how Christians should be anyways. It’s not about hate, despite what the current thinking is. I guess historically it’s always been used that way though.
I was already having issues with what the church taught about gay people. One of the priests at my college church likened sex before marriage to child sex trafficking, saying premarital sex directly lead to child sex trafficking. I walked out in the middle of the sermon.
I was still on the fence about if I was Catholic or not afterwards, it was all I knew growing up after all. I went to history class that next semester and learned the Bible was just piecemealed together by a bunch of old white men in the 16th 4th Century during the council of nicea. There is literally no way to tell who actually wrote the stories in the Bible, much less determine their validity because the stories were put together in a single book hundreds of years after they were written. On top of that, if a story didn’t fit what these guys decided the Catholic faith was supposed to be, they threw it out!
The Bible isn’t the word of God, it’s some dudes in the 16th 4th century’s head cannon.
That pretty much sealed the deal for me. If there is some divine force, it certainly wasn’t going to speak to me through this book or this faith.
Then to add insult to injury, in that same class I learned about the history about how the Christian faith came about, and how they basically just chose one of many Mesopotamian gods and decided he was the one true God and propagandized and crusaded their way into making people accept their beliefs. All of it was just decided and shaped by humans, and none of it was “divine” as I was taught. It was all a lie.
Bible was just piecemealed together by a bunch of old white men in the 16th? Century during the council of nicea.
About this…
Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code, which became popular in 2003. According to Brown’s fictional (and historically dubious) narrative, the books that make up the Bible were officially selected and put together by the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, under the authority of Constantine I who sought to define Christian doctrine and belief.
Although the Council certainly did meet at a time of crisis within the Church, it did not address the biblical canon, despite what Brown said. This has become a modern myth that has outlasted the book’s initial surge in popularity. In reality, the Council of Nicaea met to debate the nature of the Trinity (that Jesus is the son, and father, and the holy spirit at the same time), among other things.
It seems like influential and powerful individuals and organizations who voiced which texts should the bible include up until the 4th century, and those who disagreed were deemed heretics.
I was raised catholic. When the class at school had their confirmation, I refused as religion felt more like a fairytale then something to really believe in. When I saw they got gifts, I was disappointed and wanted to confirm when my sister was doing her’s (to get gifts as well, wrong reason).
For that confimation I had to do bible study, during which I learned what’s in the bible. As I invested all that time, I went trough with it for the gifts, but I learned my 1st impression was right. To me it’s nothing more then a fairytale. That confirmation was my last volentary visit to a church to attend service. (Played tourist a few times, the buildings are still nice)
Till today, I still prefer to know, not to believe anything that is being told.
Survived eight years of Catholic school and read the Bible cover to cover. Between the flagrant hypocrisy and neglect in the school system and seeing the contradictions and bullshit in the book with my own eyes (and how nobody in the church even remotely tried to live up to the good parts), I just couldn't anymore.
Then I read about the Bible and its history, from the Council of Nicea to the confession letters from later translators. I saw that it's essentially a multilingual game of telephone weighted with politics, salesmanship, cultural eradication, and so forth, and it really became laughable to me that any thinking person could possibly ever take it seriously again.
It becomes easy to dismiss the rest when you realize they're pretty much all telling the same fairytales.
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