All else being equal, less code and less dependencies is safer. The bigger the application and the more it tries to do, the larger its attack surface.
(Again, all else being equal. DWM is probably smaller than Weston, but Weston doesn’t let just any old process log keypresses or take screenshots, so probably at least arguable to say that Weston is (qualifier, handwave, condition, clarification) “safer.”)
Wayland is Wayland. If you use a Wayland compositor, you’re getting a lot of security by virtue of design alone. Things like keyloggers and screenrecorders will not be able to intrude on your session barring vulnerability exploits. I’m not going to touch on the relative vulnerability risk of each environment since a) they’re all relatively new & b) I’ve never implemented Wayland myself
With that being said, here’s what’s not protected by Wayland regardless of the chosen compositor: microphones, webcams, keyrings, and files.
For microphones & webcams, any distro which rolls Pipewire in combination with Wayland will be sufficient to secure these. Pretty much all Wayland environments roll Pipewire so this is only important to consider if you’re running your own customized environment (be sure to disable any pre-existing PulseAudio daemon after setting up Pipewire to close this security hole)
For keyrings, these are handled by your environment’s polkit implementation. Much like Wayland, there are several implementations of polkit and they’re all just about equally secure barring any potential vulnerabilities… Just make sure that you’re using an encrypted database (usually on by default) and that you have it configured to always relock & properly prompt for the unlock key.
For file access, this is actually a core probelm with Linux as a whole – any unsandboxed application you run will be able to read any file that you can read. The solution is to use sandboxed applications whenever possible. The easiest way to achieve this is through using flathub/flatpak applications, since they will always list out and enforce their required permissions on a per-application basis. For non-flatkpak applications, you’ll need to use “jail” environments (e.g.: bubblejail, firejail) in order to artificially restrict application permissions by hand.
Bruh, if you’re going to insist on someone installing arch, at least sit by their side and walk them through it.
Having installed arch multiple times before, I can get a base system with networking and desktop environment up in half a day to a day depending on which DE.
I’m not saying it’s particularly fast, but having someone who knows what they are doing drastically reduces the time.
I could probably make it quicker if I set up a bunch of scripts for initial installation.
That said the whole point of arch is DIY, lightweight - people forget the kinda of people arch is for, then complain about how long it takes to install. If you complain about install times, then the distro is not for you. (For more about the point of arch, see the arch way principles.design/examples/the-arch-way)
But it can be a great platform for learning about the inner workings of your typical Linux system, and that’s why it’s great. If you’re willing to learn and look things up it can be the best option.
If you want it here and now with no fuss ,it’s the third worst system to use- followed by Gentoo and lastly, LFS.
And heck once it’s installed you can be as pedantic or as lazy as you want - my main system has had the same install of arch for multiple years - it’s a mess and I havent really maintained it well, I just fix it when it breaks and use it like a regular system. It’s just the set up process that takes the most effort.
Or, just use Endeavor OS and be done with it. It uses the Upstream repositories, the only thing in their customer repositories are some desktop wallpapers and a theme so you can safely remove it without breaking anything. It’s a great way to get a base system in a known good configuration up quickly and from there the arch Wiki can help you tweak things to your desire it’s a much better way to learn than just throwing someone into the deep end of the pool
I didn’t use Hyprland, or any other TWM, yet, due to the same reasons as you.
I just want something preconfigured that “just works”. Hyprland seems to be very very smooth, but barebones.
I’m not that much into ricing and don’t want to spend many weekends DIYing my desktop.
I wish Forge would implement some animations, then it would be perfect.
There is a Hyprland-Silverblue-image called Hyprgreen that provides that sort of, maybe you could test that? It is a rather small project and still on F38, but should still work fine.
That’s just the difference between desktop environments and window managers. Window managers are just one part of a full featured DE. Deciding to use a specific WM means you have to install and configure several things you expects and takes for granted from complete DEs.
I had good luck walking my nephew through installing and setting up arch. Great introduction into linux, he was 13 but thats close enough to the given range
My son’s windows focused ICT curriculum is pissing me off a bit. So I guess what I wanna teach is something similar to what a kid’s ICT text book would teach, except that it will be for Linux.
Huh, may be I should look for kid friendly linux books first.
I don’t know what your - and your kid’s - situation is, but I worry pushing Linux onto someone would be counterproductive to getting them to like it.
I only use it because I genuinely like and appreciate it. I’d probably start by getting him interested in it. If he likes it enough then he’ll try and learn more by himself.
I recently got an LLM running locally on an AMD GPU. This was only possible on Linux. Depending on your son, something like that could be a cool way to get him interested.
Kids that age certainly know how to use a lot of apps, but only in the walled gardens these apps allow them. It’s going to be generations of kids only exposed to very curated experiences that companies what them to know.
Although it’s true: they probably do know a lot more about stuff that matters to their generation than you do, just like you knew more than your parents about stuff that mattered to you as a kid.
And yes, I agree, they do get exposed to the Big Tech party line a lot. But don’t underestimate the kids: they’re smart, they can tell BS when they see it more than you think, and they’re not that easy to indoctrinate.
I know that because when I was a kid, we had our own tech overlords (in my generation, the phone company) and we walked all over them despite the propaganda and apparent overwhelming power. Why would today’s kids be any different?
Well, I don’t know. I kept telling how games like roblox are brainwashing and conditioning him into wanting to buy in-game junks. And, he still asks robuxs for this birthday.
Wanting robux and things like that are probably unavoidable due to peer pressure and exposure to videos and game-mechanics telling them they want this. It’s probably been like this forever, you always needed the same merchandise your friends had.
I’m curious: Do you know what he (at his age) thinks about your perspective on things?
Does he have other hobbies and still wants some immaterial in-game items / currency? Does a kid at that age grasp the value / alternatives? I suppose this all depends on how much time someone spends in a virtual world. Sure you need/want some goods there if this is a major part of your life.
I think “matters more to their generation” is doing some heavy lifting. They surely know how to navigate social media and chat servers and all that. And in a way that’s more important.
I don’t think that maps to being able to use Linux with any proficiency.
Kids are smart in some ways and stupid in a lot of ways that adults are. They’re largely being put in a battle they can’t win against YouTube and TikTok that systematically target their psychology.
Is that so different than in previous generations? Even back in the C64 era most kids just played games from disks they bought.
If you got into computers any time from the mid-90s, you would have been using Windows and that’s it.
Smartphones always came with their predetermined OS without a command line or programming tools on them. (There where apps for that on many systems, but in general, that wasn’t a thing most users used.)
From the 80s on, programming wasn’t required to use a PC and most users never learned it.
In general, people would just use pre-made software, because they use a PC/smartphone as a tool to do what they want to.
It’s kinda like with any other tools. People buy a hammer because they need to get a nail into a wall. Only very few people are interested in a hammer itself and get into the art of making their own tools.
I think it is different. In the 90s everything was limited. You needed to make do with what was limited things were available to you and get innovative and creative. Nowadays everything is unlimited. You have plenty of games on your harddisk and get new ones on a whim. You don’t need to figure out how to tackle your own problems because everything just works. We have the internet and YouTube entertainment never ends. (Back then it was just the TV.) And things weren’t made to be addictive.
I wasn’t allowed to get a GameBoy so I just had a computer. We got really creative with that because it was old and slow. When I was a bit older I figured out how to use a hex editor to manipulate the games. First I searched for where the highscore was saved and changed it to brag. Then we figured out how to change the thrust of the aircraft in the flight simulator. At some point I wanted to make my own game. I started with level-editors for the games we had access to and at some point I wanted to learn programming. And since I didn’t get a new computer when my friends got a 500MHz machine that could do CounterStrike(?) and more modern racing games, I asked my dad for his old books about programming.
So there is a natural progression for old computers to hacking and using your computer as a tool. We also incorporated it into other games, wrote letters and printed shipping labels. But I can’t deny that lots of my friends weren’t interested in that aspect and mainly used it for games and never went deeper than that. But… At least they had to figure out how to assemble their PC and get networking working because it really was a hassle. I think it’s become way easier to just ‘consume’ nowadays. That was also possible in the 90s if you had a Nintendo or PlayStation and unrestricted access to a television. But I think less so with a computer.
Kids still like to be creative. I still regularly see them play Minecraft or design levels with Mario Maker.
The only advice I have is to try to make it interesting for them and not just additional practical information they have to memorize. You don’t want to be the weird dad that insists on using stuff nobody else does, you have to show them what’s cool about it, and also accept maybe they’ll just stick with Windows for now.
I also think the main takeaway they should have out of it is that there’s many ways of doing the same thing and none is “the correct and only way”. They should learn to think critically, navigate unfamiliar user interfaces, learn some more general concepts and connect the dots on how things work, and that computers are logical machines, they don’t just do random things because they’re weird. Teach them the value of being able to dig into how it works even if it doesn’t necessarily benefit them immediately.
Maybe set up a computer or VM with all sorts of WMs and DEs with the express permission to wreck it if they want, or a VM they can set up (even better if they learn they can make their own VMs as well!). Probably have some games on there as well. Maybe tour some old operating systems for the historical context of how we got where we are today. Show them how you can make the computers do things via a terminal and it does the same thing as in the GUI. Show different GUIs, different file managers, different text/document editors, maybe different DE’s, maybe even tiling vs floating. What is a file, how are ways you can organize them, how you can move them around, how some programs can open other program’s files.
Teach them the computer works for them not the other way around. They can make the computer do literally anything they want if they wish so. But it’s okay to use other people’s stuff too.
But when the time comes and the kid needs to write some assignments for school, you can be like Your Steam Deck can do that too, have a look at what this dock does
Imagine if handheld gaming is all they’ve ever used it and known it for, and all of a sudden you show them than it can be a full desktop experience, too
I love Linux gaming. Got the Steam deck for my SO. She kind of hates it BECAUSE it’s not a no tinker device.
Like if you pick the right games you’re good, but want to play the “wrong” game, or want to mod, and your back to tinkering.
I don’t mind it at all, it’s just what PC gaming has been for me my whole life, but for her, someone who only experienced gaming on newer consoles it’s a pain in the tush.
For me what planted the Linux seed is when I tried Mandrake Linux when I was 9-10ish. I didn’t end up sticking with it for all that long, but I absolutely loved trying out all those DEs. I had downloaded the full fat 5 CD version and checked almost everything during setup, so it came jam packed with all sorts of random software to try out. The games were nice, played the shit out of Frozen Bubble. I really liked Konqueror too, coming from Internet Explorer. It was pretty snappy overall. And there’s virtual desktops for more space! People were really helpful on IRC, even though I was asking about installing my Windows drivers in Wine. Unfortunately I kinda wanted games and my friends were getting annoyed we couldn’t play games on my computer.
It stuck with me however, so later on when some of my online friends were trying it out, I wanted to try it out again too. I wasn’t much into games anymore, had started coding a little bit. So on my computer went Kubuntu 7.10, and I’m still on Linux to this day.
But that seed is what taught me there’s more. I didn’t hate Windows, I wasn’t looking to replace it. I hadn’t fallen in love with FOSS yet. It was cool and different and fun. It wasn’t as sterile and as… grey as Windows 98. You could pop up some googly eyes that followed your mouse, because you could. There were all those weird DEs with all sorts of bars and features.
You don’t want to be the weird dad that insists on using stuff nobody else does, you have to show them what’s cool about it, and also accept maybe they’ll just stick with Windows for now.
This 👆. Be weird, but be cool at the same time. None of the other dads can do this, but yours can 🦸 ☺️… and, he can teach you how to do a lot more cool stuff as well 😉.
I also think the main takeaway they should have out of it is that there’s many ways of doing the same thing and none is “the correct and only way”. They should learn to think critically, navigate unfamiliar user interfaces, learn some more general concepts and connect the dots on how things work, and that computers are logical machines, they don’t just do random things because they’re weird. Teach them the value of being able to dig into how it works even if it doesn’t necessarily benefit them immediately.
This will come gradually. First, show him one way of doing things, let it sink in, let him get comfortable with it, then say “you know, you could do that in another way as well 😉”. I bet he’ll start asking you if there are other ways as well in no time 😂.
Just introducing them to it is probably enough. Show them different desktop environments and applications to get them used to the idea of diverse interfaces and workflows. Just knowing that alternatives exist could help them break out of the Windows monoculture later. Enable all of the cool window effects.
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