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muix, in Get the boat

Drinking milk without exploitation, instead of imposing suffering on millions of beings? Get the boat

OddFed,
@OddFed@feddit.de avatar

What? I’m vegan myself. What does all of this have to do with the post?

muix,

Sorry fellow vegan, the post made it seem like human breast milk is somehow worse than or comparable to “conventional” cow’s milk.

OddFed,
@OddFed@feddit.de avatar

Forgiven 🌱♥️

Stuka, in eat the rich

Time to stop blocking the people who post this stupid shit.

Omega_Haxors,

dbzer0 has been probably one of the most consistently low quality posting instances not ending in .de

LavaPlanet,

Did you mean to say start?

Aux, in eat the rich

You already have a mean of production in your hand. But the only thing you produce is stupid memes.

OurToothbrush,

I’m pretty sure phones are not all that is involved in commodity production.

Aux,

But they are. Because we live in a service economy and the only thing you produce are services. Phone is enough. Use it wisely.

OurToothbrush,

Yeah. Hold on, I’m just going to build a house, get access to fresh water, and produce food with my phone. After that I’m going to get vaccinated with my phone. And after that I’ll make some clothes with my phone.

Go read the first few chapters of capital on means of production.

Aux,

Yeah, you can build a house with a phone. Your few chapters are a bit outdated, by about two centuries. The world has moved on.

OurToothbrush,

Please demonstrate how a house is built with a phone.

Aux,
OurToothbrush,

That does not demonstrate how a house is built with a phone

Aux,

And that’s why you’ll be poor forever.

OurToothbrush,

Lol I have a bullshit job in tech, I’m just not ignorant about what marxist terms mean because I’ve read marx.

interdimensionalmeme,

Even if they did produce something, Jeff Bezos would steal it as soon as it started making a buck.

Seizing the means of production made sense when that was the leverage the owners used to strip the surplus value from you.

Today, they use gatekept platform and a captive audience with AI manipulation to insert themselves between you and the customers and strip you of your surplus value.

Now pay Bezos’ 40% tax until Amazon basic is ready to outcompete out of the platform entirely. Welcome to the second page of Google !

Aux,

Lolwut? You’re delusional, mate.

NorthWestWind, in At least uBlock Origin is always up-to-date now
@NorthWestWind@lemmy.world avatar

I’m using the windows phone user agent solution. It loads the old version of YouTube and is much faster besides the lack of anti adblock

killeronthecorner,
@killeronthecorner@lemmy.world avatar

YouTube devs: “Wow, Windows Phone still has a sizeable userbase”

YouTube viewers:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6bb97d48-81dc-43f4-8c2b-22f8c9ace2a9.jpeg

Cinner,

Hey Jim, when did Microsoft start releasing Windows phones with 27" screens?

grandel, in Get the boat

By definition you can eat and drink human produce and still be vegan. So you could be a cannibal and also a vegan.

pugsnroses77,

eat the rich!

Klear,

Humans are animals.

Wootz,

That’s the point.

Veganism, as far as I can tell, is not so much about not consuming animal products as it is about not consuming anything that causes harm to animals.

By that logic, you would keep your child on breast milk as long as possible, to avoid having to switch to cow milk or formula.

figaro,

Yeah I think as long as consent is given. Animals can’t give consent, which makes it immoral to eat them (according to vegans).

Abnorc,

The IT crowd comes to mind.

“No-- he was a very nice cannibal.”

backhdlp,
@backhdlp@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

You are what you eat

wreckedcarzz, in Awww yeah
@wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world avatar

Boys

Dick

Sucking (dick)

Men

thank you for coming to my ted talk

Ordoabchao,
@Ordoabchao@kbin.social avatar

Vatican priests would like to know more

enjoytemple, in Awww yeah
@enjoytemple@kbin.social avatar

Yeah I love BDSM:
B - money
D -
S -
M -

0x4E4F, in Awww yeah

Yes, I do love it myself.

Sheeple, in At least uBlock Origin is always up-to-date now
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

Oh I just “remove element permanently” on U-Block origin.

Make sure to remove the invisible element too that covers the whole screen. They tried that to prevent ya from just opening the video anyway.

To deactivate the scrollblock, if you experience it,just go full screen once and go back out. Which can be easily automated via a macro or literally just pressing the F key twice.

YouTube’s attempts at blocking Adblockers are pathetic

Gradually_Adjusting,
@Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world avatar

I’m not going to faff with all that until gray jay stops working

Sheeple,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

You know what, valid. I’m just listing the solution I used. I’ll make sure to check out Grayjay too.

This is the also the reason why Google is guaranteed to fail in their efforts. If one way to bypass their crap fails, 3 others will be developed swiftly <3

jackpot,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

wgats grayjay

Sheeple,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

I have no idea but it appears to be a client side APK similar to YouTube vanced from my 5 minutes of poor research

nottheengineer,

An app that lets you watch stuff from youtube, twitch, patreon, odyssey and more while respecting your privacy and having a better UI than any other streaming app.

sirico,
@sirico@feddit.uk avatar

It’s YouTuber Louis Rossman aggregator for content with the idea that you follow the creator regardless of platform, so if they have a YouTube/twitch/odysee account you’ll get all of their content in one place so if youtube bans someone for something random as they do that creator and their audience aren’t affected

crandlecan,

Sssst 😇

pensa,

YouTube’s attempts at blocking Adblockers are pathetic

I've long maintained that the majority of programmers working for Alphabet/Google/YouTube spent more time learning how to get the job than how to do the job well. There is a lot more to coding than "Cracking the Coding Interview."

It's not about building cool things over there. Is has not been that way for a long time. They just want the money and reputation.

Skaryon,

I don’t know. If I were a webdev at Google I would probably be against this nonsense as much as we are here. So I’d implement the most half assed ‘blocking’ of ad blockers possible knowing that the moron product manager who requested it won’t be able to tell.

Cinner,

That’s a great way to advance your career by the ‘genius’ kid that comes up with the much better way to do it and calls you out during a meeting while showing his already-written code that does much better than your senior dev self.

egeres,
@egeres@lemmy.world avatar

I partially disagree, the average developer at google is very competent, yet, their work pipelines must be so long and complex that such talent gets somewhat diluted

baascus,

Pihole has still been working reliably as well

odious,
@odious@feddit.de avatar

Not for me 🤔 I am running PiHole and the adblock thing still shows up. Which blocklists are you using?

altima_neo,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

I’ve never had pihole block YouTube ads. I don’t think it’s capable of that.

nicolairathjen,

How does this work? I’ve been considering using a Raspberry Pi for Pihole, but I’ve been discouraged as it wouldn’t work for YouTube anyways. How I understand it is that Pihole is DNS, which just blocks certain domains. Since Youtube ads and videos are indistinguishable from a networking POV, it won’t be able to block them. Am I wrong? Is there something I have misunderstood?

baascus,

YouTube ads are distinguishable at the dns level for now at least. For the optimal setup I recommend docker-compose on a raspi with watchtower. This setup will automatically keep everything up to date but requires a little docker knowledge. Here’s some documentation:

github.com/pi-hole/docker-pi-holegithub.com/containrrr/watchtower

killeronthecorner,
@killeronthecorner@lemmy.world avatar

Pi hole does not block it at all for me.

Have you tried accessing youtube in incognito a couple of times with adblockers disabled?

Not saying it isn’t true but I, and several other pihole users I know, still see the block without uBo

KnightontheSun,

Long time Pi-Hole user here. It is not effective in this regard. Someone please prove me wrong.

killeronthecorner,
@killeronthecorner@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t see how it could be given that they are loading a detection script in the client.

It has nothing to do with DNS. I suspect those saying that PiHole solves it simply haven’t been rolled out to yet (or are using adblockers but have forgotten)

tourist,
@tourist@lemmy.world avatar

Is it really that easy? Why did they even bother?

They’ve known about ad blockers for well over decade now and their “solution” can be bypassed with inspect-element. Nice.

Jako301,

It is, in fact, not that easy. It works to hide the warning, but once you reache the stage where they block videos, it won’t help you.

The better option is to block all scripts on YouTube and only whitelist the 2 or 3 that are necessary to watch videos.

GissaMittJobb,

It hasn’t really mattered enough for them to spend any engineering time on it before. Zero interest rates are over, though, and money actually kind of means something now. This is just the first move in a chain of many.

A warning for anyone relying on stuff like adblockers for YouTube - it’s not that hard for Google to figure out that we’re doing it, simply query for which users have zero ad impressions. Google also has a certain tendency to permaban Google accounts in violation of their policies and then ignoring all appeals. If you rely on Google accounts for email, photos and the like, this might be the time to plan contingencies.

Personally I’ve started using Piped instead. The lack of recommendations is a bit of a bummer, but in all honesty it was kind of like the switch from Reddit to Lemmy - just had to wean myself off the digital sugar pills.

altima_neo,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

I get the feeling that they aren’t trying particularly hard.

JustAManOnAToilet,

It might be a cost benefit thing. They probably could hire a team to perfect it and be on hand round the clock playing whack a mole with every workaround that gets found, but the half measure might catch the masses and be enough to not warrant spending the extra to do that.

Sheeple,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

Unfortunately they are actually updating their anti adblock measures twice a day. Poorly but they still are

altima_neo,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar

No, I mean they could do what streaming services do and drm encode the stream, or make the ads indistinguishable from the videos, making it impossible to block.

themusicman,

If the ads were added to the video stream (I assume this is what you’re suggesting) they can be easily skipped by scrubbing the timeline. On the other hand, if they add metadata so the client can make them unskippable, the ad blockers will have something to work with. Classic catch 22.

vox,
@vox@sopuli.xyz avatar

btw as a general rule, you can prevent scrollblock by just doing

##body:style(overflow:auto !important)

ClamDrinker,

This was my gut reaction as well, but dont do this, the makers of uBlock Origin warn against it!https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/wiki/solutions/youtube/detection-faq/

Can’t I just hide the pop-up with uBO’s Picker?

No. Cosmetic filters don’t stop the message - they just temporarily hide it from view. The anti-adblock script will continue to run in the background and will eventually block you from watching videos. Please don’t use, share or recommend using any of those filters and don’t report any issues when using them.

Sheeple,
@Sheeple@lemmy.world avatar

deleted_by_author

  • Loading...
  • 4am,

    That’s still a cosmetic block and the script will eventually cut you off from the servers is what I think they more saying - as in, the servers will just refuse to send you the video.

    JSens1998,

    They aren’t trying right now because they’re running tests. I’m assuming they’re testing what does and doesn’t work. They probably wanted us to find workarounds so they could patch them when they decide to actually roll out the anti-adblock feature.

    snowraven, (edited ) in You're only exceptional at keeping people poor

    Unpopular opinion: it’s more of a coping mechanism for the third world countries.

    Sure UK and much of Europe had big and terrible colonies but there were still many like sweden and norway which did not. Thus the assertion that developed countries all have built upon exploitation is not entirely true

    Assertion 2: countries such as china have shown that economic development is possible when you have a terrible history of war, destruction or otherwise poor economic background. Sure personal freedom is a joke in China but to say it isn’t an economic giant is false. Poland after ww2 is another example, much of their intellects were killed and warsaw was everything but ruins at the end of 1945

    Assertion 3: geography, the age groups of the people and culture all affect the development of a nation much more than their history from 80 years ago.

    • from someone who has keen interest in history and lives in a third world country and seen corruption, bribery and every form of idiotic economic decision that a government can make to not let the country be a better place.
    Zerush, in Get the boat
    @Zerush@lemmy.ml avatar

    Only if the mother is a vegetal

    evilgiraffe666, in is this breakfast?

    You’ve forgotten the sauce and haven’t toasted the bread, 4/10

    It would probably taste alright and is reasonably nutritious, but it’s not right.

    Mr_Blott,

    Taste alright? The beans are fucking raw

    aquasteel,

    No, it should look more like this. And we don’t tend to have this for brekkie.

    https://lemmygrad.ml/pictrs/image/add00530-3127-4fd8-9ebb-22475abe5c76.jpeg

    craftyindividual,

    Needs butter too

    Devouring, in eat the rich

    Genuinely speaking, do you really think Amazon will continue to operate if the “workers” took it over from the (evil) executives and owned all the power?

    In my opinion, it’ll fall apart in no time, because not a single decision will be made to progress work and to solve problems, and every problem will be a vote to people who don’t understand the consequences and will prefer to serve their personal needs. Am I wrong?

    interdimensionalmeme,

    That’s every bureaucracy that ever existed.

    OurToothbrush,

    Do you think the shareholders are active in problem solving? Workers include basically everyone but the shareholders. The tech guys, the executives, the managers.

    jlou,

    It is a straw man that democracy means every problem is put to a vote. Workers can jointly decide to delegate decision-making to executives and managers. The difference in worker coops is that these executives and managers are ultimately democratically accountable to the people doing the work

    Devouring,

    So you’re saying someone will want to act as an executive, but without getting the executive pay?

    Why would anyone want to do that stressful job and responsibility, instead of just being a cog in the wheel and typing on a computer or moving boxes? Who decides who does what? And what happens if the managers disagree with half the “workers/owners” when a decision has to be made that benefits a part but hurts another? Who has the authority to put their foot down for the “greater good” even though half the workers don’t like their decision?

    Schadrach,

    This is all stuff you hash out when you create a co-op. But normally you create a co-op, you don’t convert a giant multinational into one.

    Devouring,

    I’m not sure I understand… are you saying that your plans don’t work on giant corporations, so maybe you shouldn’t propose things like OP did?

    Well, according to the post, you want to seize the means of production and eat the rich. Sounds delicious! I would love to know whether you’re just a bunch of guys having wet dreams or whether there’s a framework where this can really work. Tell me how you’re gonna seize Amazon and keep it running like it does now.

    jlou,

    It depends on the material conditions what specific action would be required. For example, the legal system could abolish the employer-employee contract that violates workers inalienable rights to democracy and to appropriate the positive and negative fruits of their labor. Then, the contract could be reversed so that labor jointly hires capital rather than capital hiring labor. Amazon, in particular, has other issues that should be addressed, but we can ignore that for now

    Devouring,

    My original questions aren’t answered. You’re just talking about the temporary procedure, not the long term plan, as in the questions I asked.

    jlou,

    The executives can be paid more. In a system where all firms are worker coops, it would be a much more compressed difference between the least paid and most paid worker in a firm than the absurd pay differences we see today.

    A manger in a worker coop has the same decision-making rights as in any company. The difference is that they are democratically accountable to the workers instead of being accountable to the employer, an alien legal party. Essentially, workers hold all voting shares

    Devouring,

    You said a bunch of nice things, but you ignored the core of the problem. If workers hold all voting shares, what happens when they’re split on an issue? Who can tell them to STFU for the better of the company?

    Another similar question: What if there’s an issue that will lead to half of them getting fired? Like, say, a technological advancement? So if work can be optimized by 200% by adding computers, but then 50% of the people are useless then. Wouldn’t the workers vote to stay employed/paid instead of saving the company that can be destroyed in a competitive market where better, faster companies can emerge if this company doesn’t adopt the newer tech? Who will make that decision?

    jlou,

    Like I said, its like workers hold all the voting shares in the company, so these issues would resolved the same way that they are resolve in corporations owned by shareholders.

    The rational action would be to adopt the new tech and instead of firing half of the workers, which is socially irrational due to the social costs of unemployment, dividing the remaining work among the existing workers. The extra time that each worker has could be used for producing something else

    Devouring,

    Like I said, its like workers hold all the voting shares in the company, so these issues would resolved the same way that they are resolve in corporations owned by shareholders.

    You’re ignoring a key point I’m trying to make: The workers have a conflict of interest, unlike shareholders. The workers want to minimize their work and maximize their gain, which is mutually exclusive in one company. While shareholders in the current system just want to maximize their gain (regardless of whether that’s good or bad). So why would the worker strive to learn new things instead of keeping the status quo? Most people don’t see the big picture and don’t want to read a book to learn a new thing. How many people around you come from work and spend their evenings reading new things to stay up in their job? This is one problem.

    Like I said before to another guy, if you keep dividing the extra without firing anyone, given a limited growth, eventually there won’t be enough money to go around. Everyone will go bankrupt. How do you solve that problem too?

    OurToothbrush,

    Better to have them making the decision than capitalists, who make more money for paying employees less

    Also who says half of them have to be fired? Can’t everyone just work less?

    Devouring,

    “Better” is in your opinion. I need answers based on concerns and problems that happens in the real world. A fast-paced world.

    Assuming the revenue of the company doesn’t have massive growth (which is the normal situation unless a breakthrough happened), we need to hire more people who have the skills needed to keep up with the market. So, assuming we want to keep everyone (including useless people who’d rather have beer instead of reading a book to learn the new stuff), the income of everyone will just go down over time. Eventually, with no one getting fire there won’t be enough money to go around to feed them. What am I missing here?

    OurToothbrush, (edited )

    See you’re still trapped within the logic of capitalism which maximizes profits and expansion over other concerns.

    So, assuming we want to keep everyone (including useless people who’d rather have beer instead of reading a book to learn the new stuff), the income of everyone will just go down over time. Eventually, with no one getting fire there won’t be enough money to go around to feed them. What am I missing here?

    These are all massive assumptions

    Devouring,

    Sorry but you’re evading my questions.

    That’s OK. I’m not looking to “win” here. Just think about what I said, and next time you have this discussion, have good answers. Maybe you’ll change your mind one day and understand why the world we live in is the way we live in. Not that things can’t be improve or that we’re drowning in corruption. But that’s another topic for another day. Have a good one.

    OurToothbrush,

    Maybe you’ll change your mind one day and understand why the world we live in is the way we live in.

    This from the person who is spouting econ 101 nonsense.

    Devouring,

    You haven’t presented a valid argument. 2+2 is simple, but it works. When someone says the 2+2=10^50, and money falls from the sky, and everyone being lazy leads to growth, I’ll ask them to justify.

    Take a step back and evaluate your ego.

    OurToothbrush, (edited )

    Unfortunately in the case of econ 101, you are taught that 2+2=5 most modern econ is neoclassical, which means operating on pre-marx economics and just ignoring marxist critiques of the political economy.

    and money falls from the sky, and everyone being lazy leads to growth, I’ll ask them to justify.

    Thats a mighty strawman you invented. Workers are going to do the bare minimum to not get fired when it literally doesn’t matter how much they work, their income will be the same. When workers are invested in an organization, they do more work.

    Devouring,

    Either answer my questions, or go away. This conversation is over.

    OurToothbrush,

    Your only question is “what am I missing” and the answer is an economics education.

    But to address your “concerns” you’re operating on the mindset of maximizing profit to compete against other firms maximizing profit, which is only a problem under capitalism (until you reach the monopoly stage)

    Devouring,

    Nice try evading the question. Try again.

    Read the post. Read my question. Tell me what’s wrong in my scenario and how it’ll work in your “well-educated” mind.

    If you understand it, you can explain it to a 5-year old.

    Let’s see what your next excuse is gonna be.

    OurToothbrush,

    You literally only have one question, the rest of it is opining.

    You’re assuming a wage labor model and that people working twice as efficiently and at half intensity would result in decreased production.

    1. wage labor models aren’t universal
    2. there is no reasoning stated for why production would go down

    You’re assuming people would have to be fired to maintain competitive growth. This is based on the logic of firms competing to capture market share. There isn’t really a rational reason for this to need to happen under systems were the point is to accommodate human need, not to maximize profit.

    Devouring,

    I haven’t said that people have to be fired to maintain competitive growth. I said that assuming a normal/average growth (and let’s even make it simpler for you and ignore growth), and assuming a breakthrough requires many new people to hired to work with a new technology, then the people who are there and who aren’t interested in learning the new way of doing things, will just become a burden to the company. Let’s do the math:

    • More people are hired
    • Same output is maintained

    Let’s do the 5th grade math: Same output / More people = less earner per person every time this happens

    Meaning: If this trend continuous due to multiple breakthroughs (which isn’t crazy, we have seen tons of those in the last 25 years in different sectors), then this company is destined to become bankrupt, especially because people will continuously keep earning less with no lower-bound to that other zero, to the point where it’s not enough to make a living.

    Nothing you said answers this dilemma. You keep talking about general things and avoid this (very realistic) scenario that keeps happening. How will such a company survive?

    OurToothbrush,

    Thats it interesting scenario, but why are you assuming that there is a significant segment that won’t want to learn, especially when they’re no longer alienated from their labor? And why are you assuming that the total laborers will increase with new technology, when you can retrain existing workers?

    I dont think your scenario is realistic, it kinda reads as really misanthropic

    Devouring,

    Because the fraction of the current world that reads every day and learns every day is extremely small. Again, like I said before, how many people around you come back from work and want to read technical books and watch courses instead of chilling, or hanging out with friends? I have two friends who are nut jobs like me and work all the time. EVERYONE else is lazy and just wants to have fun after work, and that’s in my circle. This spans over decades in the different jobs and sectors I worked at, in different countries. Do you have a different experience around you? I have trouble convincing people to read for 30 minutes every day.

    Are you trying to argue that the majority of people watch educational videos in their free time and read technical books and prefer that over hanging out?

    OurToothbrush,

    Because the fraction of the current world that reads every day and learns every day is extremely small.

    Socialist countries are famous for literacy and education drives

    Again, like I said before, how many people around you come back from work and want to read technical books and watch courses instead of chilling, or hanging out with friends? I have two friends who are nut jobs like me and work all the time. EVERYONE else is lazy and just wants to have fun after work, and that’s in my circle. This spans over decades in the different jobs and sectors I worked at, in different countries. Do you have a different experience around you? I have trouble convincing people to read for 30 minutes every day.

    I dont think it is reasonable to assume humans will act the same way in all conditions. I know people who just slack off, and its generally because there is no incentive not to do the bare minimum when you are alienated from your labor

    Devouring,

    Humans will be humans wherever they go.

    But to summarize. You basically want to wreck the current system on the basis that everyone will be diligent, reading all the time, just for the “greater good”, more so than their own profit.

    And btw, about the “bare minimum”. No one has a reason to not do the bare minimum as they don’t get fired (consequences). There will always be the lazy guy who does the bare minimum, and everyone will get lazier because they’ll get jealous with zero consequences.

    OurToothbrush,

    But to summarize. You basically want to wreck the current system on the basis that everyone will be diligent, reading all the time, just for the “greater good”, more so than their own profit.

    No, that’s a strawman. People won’t all be diligent. But they will be more productive in general when they are not alienated from their labor. This has been proven with a bunch of economic data on socialist countries and data on cooperatives even within a capitalist environment.

    And btw, about the “bare minimum”. No one has a reason to not do the bare minimum as they don’t get fired (consequences). There will always be the lazy guy who does the bare minimum, and everyone will get lazier because they’ll get jealous with zero consequences.

    You’re just literally describing capitalism and being like, what about this problem under socialism? The consequences are youre not contributing. Do you think everyone is suddenly going to be less motivated when they’re actually able to realize the product of their labor, instead of having a parasite on top taking it?

    Devouring,

    Yeah… right. People will stop being lazy even though they can be, and will just work day and night to benefit others. Very convincing. I’ve seen all kinds of people who were put in cushy cushion jobs for decades and didn’t learn shit. Never heard of boomers?

    Under capitalism, you can do the bare minimum, but a job cut will always hit you first if you make yourself worthless to the company. Is it perfect? No. But the incentive is clear, at least.

    jlou,

    Worker coops are better ethically not just based on opinion. The workers are jointly de facto responsible for using up the inputs to produce the outputs. By the usual ethical principle that legal responsibility should be assigned to the de facto responsible party, the workers should jointly be legally responsible for the produced outputs and liabilities for the used-up inputs.

    1. Worker coops can fire people.
    2. Worker coops can charge initial membership fee when a new worker joins.
    Devouring,

    OK, at least we agree we can fire people. That answers my question. The circumstances aren’t important. This idea that people can’t be fired is just ridiculous.

    Do you think communities will be happy seeing their friends/family being fired, and not understanding why? This actually reminds me of the movie Casino (1995), where Robert De Niro fires that Texan guy for incompetence, and then hell breaks loose due to relatives not understanding how that works. This is human nature. People will always prefer to keep an incompetent relative vs firing them for a good reason, no matter what.

    jlou,

    I never said that people couldn't get fired.

    The incompetent relative example seems to be a problem with nepotism

    Devouring,

    Agreed. It’s a nepotism problem. I’m just drawing the picture that removing money from the picture basically makes relationships the new currency. It’s basically how life used to be a long time ago, and those who were closer to the leader got better jobs with perks. People will always find a way to benefit and will centralize power eventually. I can’t say much about hypotheticals and whether your coop will fix that, but in my opinion, history suggests that we’ll just end up with a new system of power.

    jlou,

    I never said anything about removing money.

    What you are talking about is called social capital accumulation, which is a problem in any system.

    A justification for worker coops is the moral principle of assigning legal responsibility to the de facto responsible party. In an employer-employee relationship, the employer receives 100% of the legal responsibility despite the employee being inextricably co-responsible. This violates the aforementioned principle

    Devouring,

    Well, I don’t think you can use written laws to fight human plans to centralize power. I guess our current system is proof of that. People will always find a way to centralize that power to benefit themselves and their groups.

    But anyway. I guess we’re getting into a dead end. This is becoming opinion stuff at this point, whether this will work. I’ll have to think more about this stuff.

    Dogyote,

    I think your worries are misplaced. I work for an employee owned cooperative with about 60 employees. I think half of the employees are also owners. There’s still a CEO, chosen by the board of directors, who are elected by the employee-owners. Day to day operational decisions are made by whoever is in charge of the relevant department, just like a shareholder-owned corporation. Bigger decisions, like long term strategy or how to distribute profits among employees, are voted on by all of the employee owners instead of shareholders. It’s been in business for about 20 years and makes enough money to share profits with all employees regardless of their ownership status. So essentially this business operates like any other, but the profits are shared with the employee-owners and employees instead of going to shareholders or insane CEO salaries (compressed pay structure).

    Devouring,

    This is exactly the problem with such discussion. We end up with anecdotes. Yeah, I gotta see that company’s financial statements, their business model, and their growth, to decide whether this is a good thing. In fact, the idea that it makes “enough money” doesn’t sound good good. This kind of “stability” (I’ll call it) is either due to a niche field or a dying company that sooner or later will become irrelevant. It’s not how the real world works.

    And even with this model you proposed, someone eventually can put their foot down. Those employees can sell their shares if they want, and we’re all the way back to the (evil) capitalist model you don’t like.

    jlou,

    Worker coops are a good thing because unlike employer-employee-based firms they don't violate workers' inalienable rights. The justification is a principled ethical argument.

    The workers' voting shares should be inalienable and attached to the functional role of working in the firm. The employer-employee contract would be abolished, so there would be no mechanism within the legal system for having a capitalist firm.

    An inalienable right is one that the holder cannot give up even with consent

    Devouring,

    Until everyone fights what “rights” are, which is kind of the problem everywhere. You have a picture of these rights, which are pink and rosy. I believe you have good intention. But you have to imagine an contentious environment where everyone will disagree with you to maximize their gain, and minimize their effort. Any system you put in place and anything you define as rights will be malleable and will be up for thousands of debates, and eventually you’ll be the dictator for setting up a system that you think will work. Back to square one.

    This is why I said it’s opinion. I got my answer. You agree with firing people. Good enough for me for now. Others don’t.

    Dogyote,

    I really think you should stop arguing and start listening.

    Voltage808s, in most normal instagram comments section
    @Voltage808s@kerala.party avatar

    I used to think reddit and twitter was the most toxic(4chan and like on their own realm). Instagram seemed very tame compared to it and it probably was, its only recently instagram comment sections became super toxic.

    Or the algorithm figured me out and is showing me conflicting opinions for engagement. Except i ended up deleting instagram cause of it💀

    darcy,
    @darcy@sh.itjust.works avatar

    the top comment is always a slur or a euphamism for suicide

    _cnt0, in bread of wisdom
    @_cnt0@feddit.de avatar

    The only thing that bothers me about terms like “trans rights”, “women rights”, … is that there should be no need to prefix “rights” with anything but “human”. And human rights should apply to all humans indiscriminately, obviating the need to label any subset of human rights that shouldn’t exist. In my book, the slice of bread should read:

    Humans have human rights. Trans people are humans.

    And in a better world every bit of that should be so obvious that it wouldn’t need mentioning at all.

    rockerface,

    That’s the whole reason trans rights, women rights and so on are talked about. Some people need a constant reminder that trans people are human, women are human and all the other minority groups are human as well. Because somehow that’s not obvious to them.

    _cnt0,
    @_cnt0@feddit.de avatar

    That stance is fair enough. Though I’d like to point out that language can shape perception. And using terms like “trans rights” suggests that trans people are sufficiently different from “normal” humans that they require special rights. But, in my humble opinion, it would be so easy to formulate human/basic rights in a way that no subset specific rights are required, that the entire notion of X rights seems alien to me. Let’s assume we have four tiers of laws (true for some nations): constitutional law, common law, policy, and judicial precedence. Imagine the following subset of constitutional law:

    • Constitutional law applies to all humans residing in the jurisdiction of the nation.
    • Nobody has a right for unhurt feelings.
    • Nobody shall perform an act solely for the purpose of hurting someone else’s feelings.
    • Everybody has a right for individual bodily autonomy.

    There’s no mention of race, religion, gender, … Yet, I’d argue that, for example, trans people are fully covered and protected by the wording. Required exceptions, for example limited accountability for minors, can easily be put into common law. If it becomes evident that some minority is factually disadvantaged, that could be addressed in policy without any need to extend the law because that is neutral and all-encompassing.

    I feel like “we” (politicians/societies) are talking way too much about special laws for trans people, women, … when we should fix the root causes of overly specific laws/constitutions.

    TL;DR: humans are humans, and imho human law should be for all humans and avoid special treatment of any subset, but be worded in a way that any special need is met as best as possible.

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