I wrote a (very long) blog post about those viral math problems and am looking for feedback, especially from people who are not convinced that the problem is ambiguous.
It’s about a 30min read so thank you in advance if you really take the time to read it, but I think it’s worth it if you joined such discussions in the past, but I’m probably biased because I wrote it :)
I found a few typos. In the 2nd paragraph under the section “strong feelings”, you use “than” when it should be “then”. More importantly, when talking about distributive properties, you say x(x+z)=xy+xz. I believe you meant x(y+z)=xy+xz.
Otherwise, I enjoyed that read. I’m embarrassed to say that I did think pemdas meant multiplication came before division, however I’m proud to say that I’ve unconsciously known that it’s important to avoid the ambiguity by putting parentheses everywhere for example when I make formulas in spreadsheets. Which by the way, spreadsheets generally allow multiplication by juxtaposition.
It’s actually fine to do multiplication before division, you just have to be sure about which numbers are intended to be included in the divisor of your fraction!
Thank you so much for taking the time and reading the post. I just fixed the typos, many thanks for pointing them out.
There is nothing really to be embarrassed about and if you look at the comment sections of such viral math posts you can see that you are certainly not the only one. I think that mnemonics that use “MD” and “AS” without grouping like in “PE(MD)(AS)” are really to blame here.
An alternative would be to drop the inverse and only use say multiplication and addition as I suggested with “PEMA” but with “PEMDAS” one basically sets up students for the problem that they think that multiplication comes before division.
My years out of school has made me forget about how division notation is actually supposed to work and how genuinely useless the ÷ and / symbols are outside the most basic two-number problems. And it’s entirely me being dumb because I’ve already written problems as 6÷(2(1+2)) to account for it before. Me brain dun work right ;~;
The ambiguous ones at least have some discussion around it. The ones I’ve seen thenxouple times I had the misfortune of seeing them on Facebook were just straight up basic order of operations questions. They weren’t ambiguous, they were about a 4th grade math level, and all thenpeople from my high-school that complain that school never taught them anything were completely failing to get it.
I’m talking like 4+1x2 and a bunch of people were saying it was 10.
While I agree the problem as written is ambiguous and should be written with explicit operators, I have 1 argument to make. In pretty much every other field if we have a question the answer pretty much always ends up being something along the lines of “well the experts do this” or “this professor at this prestigious university says this”, or “the scientific community says”. The fact that this article even states that academic circles and “scientific” calculators use strong juxtaposition, while basic education and basic calculators use weak juxtaposition is interesting. Why do we treat math differently than pretty much every other field? Shouldn’t strong juxtaposition be the precedent and the norm then just how the scientific community sets precedents for literally every other field? We should start saying weak juxtaposition is wrong and just settle on one.
I tried to be careful to not suggest that scientist only use strong juxtaposition. They use both but are typically very careful to not write ambiguous stuff and practically never write implicit multiplications between numbers because they just simplify it.
At this point it’s probably to late to really fix it and the only viable option is to be aware why and how this ambiguous and not write it that way.
As stated in the “even more ambiguous math notations” it’s far from the only ambiguous situation and it’s practically impossible (and not really necessary) to fix.
Scientist and engineers also know the issue and navigate around it. It’s really a non-issue for experts and the problem is only how and what the general population is taught.
Damn ragebait posts, it’s always the same recycled operation. They could at least spice it up, like the discussion about absolute value. What’s |a|b|c|?
What I gather from this, is that Geogebra is superior for not allowing ambiguous notation to be parsed 👌
Your example with the absolute values is actually linked in the “Even more ambiguous math notations” section.
Geogebra has indeed found a good solution but it only works if you input field supports fractions and a lot of calculators (even CAS like WolframAlpha) don’t support that.
Yeah! That’s why I mentioned it, it was a fresh ambiguous notation problem that I’ve never encountered before. Discussions of “is it 1 or 9” get tiring quickly.
At least WA and others tell you how they interpret the input, instead of being a black box (until you get to the manuals). Even though it is obvious in hindsight, I didn’t get why two calculators would yield different results; thanks!
Honestly, I do disagree that the question is ambiguous. The lack of parenthetical separation is itself a choice that informs order of operations. If the answer was meant to be 9, then the 6/2 would be isolated in parenthesis.
It’s covered in the blog, but this is likely due to a bias towards Strong Juxtaposition rules for parentheses rather than Weak. It’s common for those who learned math into advanced algebra/ beginning Calc and beyond, since that’s the usual method for higher math education. But it isn’t “correct”, it’s one of two standard ways of doing it. The ambiguity in the question is intentional and pervasive.
I don’t know what you want, man. The blog’s goal is to describe the problem and why it comes about and your response is “Following my logic, there is no confusion!” when there clearly is confusion in the wider world here. The blog does a good job of narrowing down why there’s confusion, you’re response doesn’t add anything or refute anything. It’s just… you bragging? I’m not certain what your point is.
None of this has a point. We’re talking over a shitpost rant about common use of math symbols. Even the conclusion boils down to it being a context dependent matter of preference. I’m just disagreeing that the original question as posed should be interpreted with weak juxtaposition.
I originally had the same reasoning but came to the opposite conclusion. Multiplication and division have the same precedence, so I read the operations from left to right unless noted otherwise with parentheses. Thus:
6/2=3
3(1+2)=9
For me to read the whole of 2(1+2) as the denominator in a fraction I would expect it to be isolated in parentheses: 6/(2(1+2)).
Reading the blog post, I understand the ambiguity now, but i’m still fascinated that we had the same criticism (no parentheses implies intent) but had opposite conclusions.
This is a very nice piece that had so much information I did not know. Toward the top of the article I was wishing for footnotes, references or something that would indicate it was not just your opinion, but as I got further into the piece you provided so many great references. I thought the calculator manuals were particularly accessible and convincing. Thanks for a great read!
I’m not sure if you read the post yet but I also have a short section about alternative notations which are less ambiguous or never ambiguous. RPN has the same issue as most notations that are never ambiguous namely that it’s hard to read - especially for big expressions.
You lost me on the section when you started going into different calculators, but I read the rest of the post. Well written even if I ultimately disagree!
The reason imo there is ambiguity with these math problems is bad/outdated teaching. The way I was taught pemdas, you always do the left-most operations first, while otherwise still following the ordering.
Doing this for 6÷2(1+2), there is no ambiguity that the answer is 9. You do your parentheses first as always, 6÷2(3), and then since division and multiplication are equal in ordering weight, you do the division first because it’s the left most operation, leaving us 3(3), which is of course 9.
If someone wrote this equation with the intention that the answer is 1, they wrote the equation wrong, simple as that.
There has apparently been historical disagreement over whether 6÷2(3) is equivalent to 6÷2x3
As a logician instead of a mathemetician, the answer is “they’re both wrong because they have proven themselves ambiguous”. Of course, my answer would be RPN to be a jerk or just have more parens to be a programmer
The calculator section is actually pretty important, because it shows how there is no consensus. Sharp is especially interesting with respect to your comment because all scientific Sharp calculators say it’s 1. For all the other brands for hardware calculators there are roughly 50:50 with saying 1 and 9.
So I’m not sure if you are suggesting that thousands of experts and hundreds of engineers at Casio, Texas Instruments, HP and Sharp got it wrong and you got it right?
There really is no agreed upon standard even amongst experts.
Hi, expert here, calculators have nothing to do with it. There’s an agreed upon “Order of Operations” that we teach to kids, and there’s a mutual agreement that it’s only approximately correct. Calculators have to pick an explicit parsing algorithm, humans don’t have to and so they don’t. I don’t look to a dictionary to tell me what I mean when I speak to another human.
Thanks for putting my thoughts into words, that’s exactly why I hate math. It was supposed to be the logical one, but since it only needs to be parsed by humans it failed at even that. It’s just conventions upon conventions to the point where it’s notably different from one teacher/professor to the next.
I guess you can tell why I went into comp-sci (and also why I’m struggling there too)
No, those companies aren’t wrong, but they’re not entirely right either. The answer to “6 ÷ 2(1+2)” is 1 on those calculators because that is a badly written equation and you(not literally you, to be clear) should feel bad for writing it, and the calculators can’t handle it with their rigid hardcoded logic. The ones that do give the correct answer of 9 on that equation will get other equations wrong that it shouldn’t be, again because the logic is hardcoded.
That doesn’t change the fact that that equation worked out on paper is absolutely 9 based on modern rules of math. Calculate the parentheses first, you then have 6 ÷ 2(3). We could solve from here, but to make the point extra clear I’m going to actually expand this out to explicit multiplication. “2(3)” is the same as “2 x 3”, so we can rewrite the equation as “6 ÷ 2 x 3”. All operators now inarguably have equal precedence, which means the only factor left in which order to do the operations is left to right, and thus division first. The answer can only be 9.
If you’d ever taken any advanced math, you’d see that the answer is 1 all day. The implicit multiplication is done before the division because anyone taking advanced math would see 2(1+2) as a term that must be resolved first. The answer still lies in the ambiguity of the way the problem is written though. If the author used fractions instead of that stupid division symbol, there would be no ambiguity. It’s either 6/2 x 3 = 9 or [6/(2x3)] = 1. Comment formatting aside, if someone put 6 in the numerator, and then did or did NOT put all the rest in the denominator underneath a horizontal bar, it would be obvious.
TL;DR It’s still a formatting issue, but 9 is definitely not the clear and only answer.
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