Are we seriously bringing this nonsense over here to Lemmy as well? The ridiculous binarization of the quality of film & TV has utterly killed media discourse. If everything has to be either “amazing” or “trash fire,” there is just simply nothing to be talked about anymore.
Was the OT amazing? Yes, it was. I can get on board there.
Was the PT amazing? No, it was not. Maybe some of it was good, and most of it better than its reputation, but overall the PT was fine. In fact, overall, most content is fine.
Was the ST a garbage fire? No! It was also fine. Some of it was ok, some of it was actually good. But as a whole, it was fine.
Rogue One? Pretty good! Not mind-blowing, not bad, better than “fine.”
Solo? Very watchable. Not bad, worse than “fine.”
The Mandalorian? Quite good! Occasionally mind-blowing, regularly excellent, always better than “fine.”
Ahsoka? Also pretty good! Better than “fine.”
Most media is just fine, and ALL media exists on a spectrum of quality; and pretending like it has to be either mind-blowing or unwatchable dreck makes the whole conversation fall apart. Being able to admit it, and to admit that there are some good elements and some bad elements, or just some things you didn’t jive with, makes you sound more like an adult.
You skipped Andor. In my very subjective opinion, it’s the best thing in the star wars universe since the OT.
The writing is razor sharp, the themes are serious and heavy (how does radicalization happen? What does living under a fascist empire feel like for the average person? What does it mean to be a rebel? How much are you willing to sacrifice?), and it really explores the very early rebellion.
It’s also a great looking series, with lots of practical sets and effects, and it doesn’t retread any familiar planets so they can do cool things with world building.
I actually left out Andor simply because I haven’t finished it. I started it with somebody else and our schedules have never lined up to watch the rest. I’m about to just do it on my own.
I remember thinking that. I think I’ll probably have to rewatch it, because I don’t remember anything that happened. But I do try to make a point not to judge or write off a TV show based upon its first 15-25%. For some shows it’s reeeeeaaaaally hard.
Completely agree. My favorite scene in the show is in the first episode when the second in command dude gets told off by the station commander about how the troopers were off doing some shit they shouldn’t be doing and ended up picking a fight with the wrong person. You get everything you need to know about in that series in like 2 minutes of dialogue. You can see the bureaucracy, the dedication/patriotism, the “grey area” where the bad guys are bad but the good guys are bad too. And most importantly no cute fucking animals. We just get a straight up world building story with real humans that treats the audience like real adults capable of complex thought that can understand the nuance of why conflict arrises.
treats the audience like real adults capable of complex thought
Absolutely! Here’s one of my favorite examples of that (spoilers, obviously):
spoilerMon Mothma picks her husband up from some kinda party. We’ve been told repeatedly by this point that she suspects her driver of reporting to the ISB. She accuses her husband of gambling, and makes a big scene about wasting money. Right after that scene, it cuts to the driver reporting to the ISB and the ISB guy saying that this might explain her money trouble. At no point was there dialogue about Mon Mothma’s plan to mislead the ISB and come up with an explanation they might find believable. We’re just presented with who knows what, the action, and the reaction. There’s no need for a monologue about her plan if you trust the audience to put the pieces together themselves.
Then this is exactly the kind of conversation-ending, inane, useless statement I’m talking about. You’re not actually saying anything; the only possible responses are agreement (in which case, nothing has been gained) or disagreement (in which case, no one’s mind will be changed). It’s the most boring, the most tiring way to have an online discussion. Stating your opinion as an opinion, with a reasoning, is so much more interesting and productive.
I’m not interested in a discussion, this topic was already discussed enough and you can read the obvious results everywhere online.
The general consensus is that Episode 7 was a soulless remake of Episode 4 and would be fine by itself if it weren’t for Episode 8 and 9, which managed to even turn Episode 7 to an irrelevant piece of media.
I’m not interested in a discussion, this topic was already discussed enough
And yet the prequel trilogy, after almost two decades, is being reevaluated and reconsidered. Conversations never end. Things are examined in a new light and different pieces are focused upon. If the conversation about Star Wars was forced to end after one poorly-received decision, the whole franchise would’ve ended with the Special Edition.
and you can read the obvious results everywhere online.
The general consensus is that […]
No, that was the groupthink. There’s no consensus reasoning for those conclusions, which means it was just the “Orthodox Online Opinion.” I prefer to think for myself.
No they were not re-evaluated - a few years ago some trolls on the internet sarcastically praised them and then some daft idiots didn’t get the joke and thought they were serious.
or maybe the opinion you thought was so ridiculous that nobody would ever seriously hold it isn’t as ridiculous as you thought and you need to get some perspective
the objective definition of garbage fire is literal refuse that is aflame. the sequel trilogies are movies, not quickly-oxidizing litter. the phrase can be used subjectively to describe the percieved quality of something, which is what you’re doing here. if you’re going to pedant at least do it right.
The moderator of this community literally removed my last comment expressing this exact sentiment hahah. People took their toxicity and brought it here. Star Wars is literally serious business in these people’s eyes.
Hi, this was automod. It catches heavily downvoted comments automatically. Often this can occur with content that does have to be deleted for safety. But you were not manually singled out for your opinion.
OT was great for it’s time, it’s a little lacking now though but still good.
PT was bad for it’s time, but with the advent of meming it has become much better. Also Ep 3 is incredible, imo best star wars film.
Rogue one was pretty good, not mind-blowing but very enjoyable.
Haven’t seen solo.
Mandolorian was phenomenal, with only a couple episodes being a little slow.
Ahsoka was also phenomenal, with no complaints at all.
But the only way for the ST to be even “ok” is if you separate from the rest of star wars. It just doesn’t fit.
Rey beats ren when she first picks up a lightsaber, after having no experience even with a sword. This is the same ren that was trained by Luke and then smoke since birth, and should be all accounts be nearly the best duelist current alive.
They immediately turn ren into a joke by having poe be not even the slightest bit intimidated by an extremely powerful darksider who can melt your brain with the force.
Their choreography was so bad they had to edit out a dagger mid fight or Rey would’ve died.
The dice are both real and not real moments apart.
Hyperspace ramming.(is actually a thing, but also simply isn’t feasible)
Episode 8 was so bad I got turned off star wars for like 2 years, and I still won’t watch somehow palpatine returned" the movie
moments after he’s been shot by a wookiee bowcaster, which we’ve seen throw stormtroopers off their feet with massive gaping holes
when she first picks up a lightsaber, after having no experience even with a sword.
but extensive and demonstrated experience with a staff
This is the same ren that was trained by Luke
partially
and then smoke
who has no demonstrated skill with a lightsaber
since birth, and should be all accounts be nearly the best duelist current alive.
Which is your headcanon. It’s not supported or implied by the film. In fact, the fact that he his lightsaber is falling apart and running ragged would rather imply that he hasn’t focused much on dueling at all. But even if he is a grandmaster—I bet I could do pretty well against Michael Jordan one-on-one if he had a fresh two-inch bullet hole in his abdomen.
They immediately turn ren into a joke by having poe be not even the slightest bit intimidated by an extremely powerful darksider who can melt your brain with the force.
Which is so very unlike Han Solo, who is not even the slightest bit intimidated by Darth Vader’s interrogation of him in Cloud City.
Their choreography was so bad they had to edit out a dagger mid fight or Rey would’ve died.
Which is so very unlike A New Hope, which features a stormtrooper bonking his head on a door in what’s intended to be a serious moment of threat for the heroes.
The dice are both real and not real moments apart.
Which is so very unlike how Imperial troops don’t care about droids in the escape pod but tthen do care about droids in the escape pod moments apart.
Hyperspace ramming.(is actually a thing, but also simply isn’t feasible)
Hyperspace ramming is amazing and I will die on this hill. Have you seen the xkcd what-if about relativistic baseball? Heavy stuff goin fast makes big boom happen. Finn later says that it’s a one-in-a-million shot, so there’s no way that an understaffed organization like the Rebellion would’ve ever wasted people (even droids) or ships on something so unlikely to work before if there was any other option, and the Empire never needed to.
Plus, the Supremacy had been tracking the Resistance through hyperspace, which means it had to have been slightly opaque to hyperspace to receive a signal, increasing the situationality of the Holdo Maneuver.
Episode 8 was so bad I got turned off star wars for like 2 years,
I was so thrilled that they decided to try some new stuff with TLJ that I became an instant Rian Johnson fan. I don’t think it all works perfectly, but so much of it would’ve been amazing if they had just stuck with it for episode 9.
and I still won’t watch somehow palpatine returned" the movie
I agree that it’s the weakest of the sequels. It might be the weakest of the nine, but that’s a toss-up with AOTC, and I’ll need a few more years to be able to make that assessment objectively.
The bottom line for me is, there’s nothing in any of the ST that ruins it for me. The sequel trilogy is probably the weakest of the saga, but it’s still fine and I’m sticking with that assessment.
FUCKING THANK YOU, there was nothing wrong with or continuity-breaking about the Holdo Maneuver, or most of the things in TLJ people love to bitch about (like Leia’s spacewalk which was pretty consistent with IRL zero-g physics and the character’s established force-sensitivity as well as being a breathtaking cinematic moment) are either conflicts with their personal headcanon (people really be getting mad about the fine points of high-dimensional travel in a cheesy movie franchise about mystical space wizards and writing essays about it and shit) or are not any worse than similar issues the OT itself (ESB has some serious issues with wonky timelines for example). The pacing isn’t great in places but nothing is so jarring as to interfere with my willing suspension of disbelief, and the story didn’t feel beat-for-beat the same as basically the rest of the franchise. TLJ was a breath of fresh air, it’s weird to me how divisive it is despite being one of the higher points in the franchise IMO.
That said, AotC at least had the neat space-opera-noir thing for part of it where Obi-Wan was playing detective, I can’t think of anything redeeming about Rise of Skywalker.
The pacing isn’t great in places but nothing is so jarring as to interfere with my willing suspension of disbelief, and the story didn’t feel beat-for-beat the same as basically the rest of the franchise.
Yeah, that’s basically how I feel about it. TLJ was better than the other two sequels and at least one of the prequels if not more. It wasn’t amazing but I feel like I need to defend it with both hands the way people came after it lol
AotC at least had the neat space-opera-noir thing for part of it where Obi-Wan was playing detective
Yeah, that was pretty dope. And I guess the Battle of Geonosis was pretty cool. But while it had some cool moments, they weren’t very coherent.
I can’t think of anything redeeming about Rise of Skywalker.
It was a visually beautiful film. But that’s about the best I can say for it.
Guys, calm down, it’s been garbage the whole time, it’s your attachment to the movie you had when you watched them at an impressionable age that makes them feel better to you.
I hear what you’re saying, but as a fairly big literary and film snob, I’ll argue that A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back were bubblegum pop approaching art like a well-realized pop music album that transcends being “just entertainment.” I’ll use some music analogies, since that’s where I have the most background:
Francis Ford Coppola : Steven Spielberg : George Lucas :: Bob Dylan : Neil Young : Paul Simon.
You’ve got the auteurs that are out make artistic pieces that may or may not be appreciated in their time, you’ve got the prolific hit machines that churn out album after album (movie after movie) of insightful, well-made work, and then you’ve got the pop, “lowest common denominator” creators that can be game changers (esp. with the right collaborators and editing), but also have a lot of dreck in their back catalogs.
I would argue that despite the OT being pop-friendly action sci-fi, there was artistry present, especially in the special effects, the story telling, and the world-building. I mean, shit, the diegesis alone is pretty much a masterclass in how to build a living, breathing fiction universe, in a way that I’m not sure has ever been surpassed.
Bottom line: are they kids’ movies? yes. Are they strong enough to stand on their own as significant artistic works in the same echelon as The Godfather? I would argue that Ep. 4-5 are, yes. Am I still answering my own rhetorical questions? Also yes.
Were you around in the late 90s-early 2000s? Because let me tell you that the prequels did not spark joy for people then. It was insane the amount of hate leveled at Ep 1-3. Hell kids at Jake Lloyd’s school bullied him so hard he quit acting.
So you never know, 7-9 might spark joy for people in 20 years.
The original trilogy has an overarching story. So does the prequel trilogy. I’m still struggling to figure out a big story for 7-9 what doesn’t have too many holes, and I’m not going to watch it all ten times to figure it out.
That’s true. I think the sequels did a lot right. A woman as a main character was long overdue. The visuals are great, acting is good for the most part.
But there’s no overall story that makes any sense and it contradicts the previous movies pretty much everywhere. 7 wasn’t very believable, but made at least some sense if seen on its own. 8 didn’t seem to have much story impact at all, people seem to just solve short term problems constantly. And 9 could well be a parody. A parody with a very big budget.
I liked the spin off movies (Solo, Rogue One) a lot, though.
It just kind of felt like they read a few of the EU novels and ripped off a few of their favorite parts without any of the buildup that made them significant.
It’s wild how people pretend that the prequels weren’t hated by a bunch of people. Like, the Plinkett Reviews of the prequels were legendary YouTube videos for years before people started ironically memeing the prequels in, like, 2016.
Back then we didn’t know how bad it could get. The Prequels were bad, but you know what? The Sequels retroactively made the Prequels look like masterpieces.
Episode 7 is no masterpiece, but it is infinitely more watchable for me than Episode 1. The initial conflict is just confusing as far as motivation, young Anakin and Jar Jar are both obnoxious as hell, and the acting is not great. The Darth Maul fight and the pod race are about the only parts of the movie that I remember fondly.
Speaking as someone who actively despised the prequels when they came out, and has only learned to unclench my teeth in anger at their existence after a long process of maturation and philosophical introspection, I can’t wait to see the next generation of people getting furious when the sequels have been out long enough for new young fans to grow up and embrace them the same way the prequels were. It was horrible and difficult for me to go through, so it’s only fair that others should have to witness that process as well.
I know, right? As a huge Star Wars nerd who was in middle school when 1 came out, I didn’t even bother to go see 2 in theaters, and to this day I still haven’t seen 3 all the way through because I have such a bad taste in my mouth.
In fact, the way Lucas shit all over the established lore and canon to produce such a flaming turd turned me off to the entire IP and I didn’t read a Star Wars book or watch a show/movie until I gave Ep 7 a try because my FiL wanted to see it in the theater. That one I actually enjoyed (contrary to popular opinion), and I’ll say that the first season of Mandalorian and Bad Batch was decent, too. I haven’t seen Andor, but I probably will based on everyone’s reviews.
But the last Star Wars work that I still actually like and that I still think stands on its own two feet was Empire Strikes Back.
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