That's exactly what I was thinking. Even with federation off it feels like it's already turning into a smaller version of what we had before. Not so much with post content or comments per se, but more for the already established "power users" and recreation of the exact same garbage, popular subs. I can't believe how many people I've already blocked that I got sick of seeing on every single post.
Yup. Moreover, i want clients and implementations that help summarize and reduce doomscroll behavior. Social networks have value (imo), but they also have a cost and i'm tired of paying that. Reddit built a habit in so many of us to go back to it during any downtime, doomscroll more time than we wanted or expected, become overly invested in karma, arguments, etc. Reddit also has zero incentive to fix any of this, as it was perfect for engagement. Reddit is Facebook is Twitter, and i'm tired of those applications drugging my brain.
I definitely do not want Reddit. I want the value we got from Reddit, without the cost.
Just to say, I 100 percent would pull RIF up in downtime but doomscrolling is not ubiquitous; I would pop into really specific communities to read about specific interests and shit that didn't expose me to current events. I am an extremely politically plugged-in person, despite avoiding it almost entirely on reddit (unless I was in the mood), but I found shit like RIF actually allowed me to be more selective about what content I want at any given time. That kind of fine-tuned control of my information intake, of course, is completely lost on New Reddit with its barrage of random recommendations.
Yea and i don't mean to imply this is something everyone needs to see as a problem. Plenty of things are addictive for some and not for others. Even regardless of addiction, i just want (to explore) a set of features that is kind of anti-reddit. Explore anything that can help me feel like i didn't miss anything, while not needing to visit more than once a day, once a week, etc. That i felt informed but that the random stuff was filtered out. etcetc
From a developer, often these features don't scale well either. Either complex to define (if customizable) or too costly to run, but Fediverse tweaks that a bit. We have the potential to have smaller servers with less concern for scale, etc. Fediverse has potential here, for me at least
Buddy, doomscrolling is your own issue. Are you old enough to remember "doomscrolling" cable television for hours at night? We're all choosing to distract ourselves from something else or we're just bored. It's nothing new.
I mean, if you're having trouble stepping away from something, it almost sounds like you're describing an addiction problem. Everyone should make it a practice to step outside themselves for a moment and assess all their habits.
You're not seriously suggesting that a platform prevent its users from using it, are you? LOL where have I seen that in the news this week?
You're not seriously suggesting that a platform prevent its users from using it, are you? LOL where have I seen that in the news this week?
Jeez, this feels quite hostile.
I'm a developer. I'm working on this problem myself. You can craft features which promote a behavior or inhibit it. For example focusing only on live oriented features, making sure that posts show up constantly and with little ability to see what previous came, i would argue, focuses behavior on addictive FOMO. Features that help summarize historical posts to leave you with less of a feeling of FOMO does the opposite. Quite difficult to get FOMO if the summary of posts only changes once every 5 hours, right? You should see the ideas here. All of which i want to explore.
Features promote behavior. Some drive engagement, some reduce engagement. I seek features which reduce engagement by way of inhibiting FOMO and promoting the feeling of being informed on what it is you were seeking.
I'm suggesting a platform which focuses on features that help users avoid what i feel are negative outcomes. Which is wholly different than saying that all platforms need to do this. Why is this controversial to you? Should i, and users like me, not be able to use a platform which tries to eradicate (as best able) FOMO? Is FOMO other people experience somehow essential to you?
You can have whatever platforms you like. Just because an option exists does not mean it is hostile to your preferences. To me your reply seems short sighted, entirely focused on your individual use case and ignorant of a wide array of methods people want to use to interact with these products.
I am focused on my slice and my pie. You can have yours too, it's okay.
Seconding everything here — hostile/destructive platform design is so normalized for users (of Reddit and in general) that designing services that don’t encourage doomscrolling/“anger-tainment”/FOMO/etc feels completely foreign to them, or even impossible. But it’s gotta happen, otherwise we’ll just repeat the worst parts of Reddit (and other platforms) all over again.
This argument that a social media platform not doing evil things also exclusively means it cannot attract an audience in some other way is a false dichotomy.
@UnshavedYak for real. It's so refreshing not having to see loads of wasted awards on the most facile, idiotic comments. Or the obnoxious avatars people made in place of their pfp. It seems so hyperbolic but it genuinely feels great not having to see all that anymore.
There’s shitloads of secret communities everywhere. Discord is particularly popular. The reason they exist is that average people are only averagely intelligent and averagely interested in most topics, so if you want a higher level of content than average, you have to go where they can’t find you.
When a dance club is cool, nobody knows about it. When everyone finds out about it, those cool people go somewhere else. Being cool, itself, implies being something different enough from normal to necessitate its own word to differentiate it. Think hipster.
Average people made McDonalds the worlds most successful restaurant. Not everybody wants to live on big macs though. But on the internet, where the users control the content, they find your cool burger place and accidentally turn it into a McDonalds because they don’t know the difference.
In my experience, most people outgrow the secret clubs phase eventually. But I’m sure not everyone does. Who doesn’t like feeling special, no matter how unjustified it is?
Yes and no. Invite only clubs risk become extreme echo chambers because they self select their members. Arguably much of social media often becomes echo chambers as people self select what they want to see. But if you then add in secret invite only clubs you're creating echo chambers within echo chambers.
Beware the alure of exclusivity, it can be false gold.
I got added to it for a top post once. I opened the popular subreddit and the top post was something like, “Well, I’m here. Now what?”
I knew immediately it was dumb.
I think “secret” communities can be good when they’re for a specialized interest. But they don’t even have to be secret. Even just niche is great.
For example, the discord for the game PolyBridge is fucking incredible. I mean, it kind of sucks right now because they just released PolyBridge 3, so a lot of new people have (temporarily) joined.
But there are regulars who post hourly years after PolyBridge releases. There is even this one person called Arglin who posts absurdly complex essays on geometry and new discoveries within the game. They could be dissertations on mathematics.
If anyone is still reading this, I have to tell you about the Linkage Repository. This document is insane. For an Indie studio’s bridge building game lol.
In my experience, most people outgrow the secret clubs phase eventually. But I’m sure not everyone does. Who doesn’t like feeling special, no matter how unjustified it is?
** looks around at the Free Masons, Skull and Bones, and Illuminati **
I used the top karma holders lists to remove their posts from my feed since it was usually people posting the same thing in multiple subs. I would often have only a few posts before the marker for page 2 would show up.
I clicked the link and thought, I'll read this and be done. RIF is also kaput. I've decided to keep it installed because all my Reddit links default to RIF and this way I won't accidentally give Reddit any traffic.
Literally just tried to open it 10 minutes ago. Goodbye, Apollo. Thanks for the great app, Christian, and for dispelling all the BS that /spez tried to spew.
I just tried to open it myself just to see it close. Kind of a sad feeling. Thank you christianselig@mastodon.social, you made reddit better and exposed /spez and reddit for what it really is.
I don't want to be "this guy", but what we have here is a screenshot of a Tweet post without even a link or a date. It's the best way to go back to the same old system that we have left behind us. This is whitepeopletwitter in a nutshell.
Edit, seriously it looks like you framed a "motivation speech". Just post the link to the text, don't screenshot a text, we cannot do anything with it. We have the tools now, use them
No. Look at the image again, we don't have the instance of the user.
also it's just a comment with someone's opinion. what is the issue exactly
It's a motivation speech. Add a parrot and you have an "advice animals". Have you not noticed how reddit became this repository of snapshot of Tweets and tiktioks? That's what you want?
I hear what you're saying, and I understand why it's generally a good idea to offer a permalink to the tweet/post/whatever.
That being said, there's been instances (especially with regards to certain politicians on Twitter) where having the screenshot has been paramount, as the original post gets deleted.
So we're left with a few choices as I see it:
Link the original post and be done with it. Risk of the original post being deleted, making your post useless.
Link a screenshot. You could add the link to the original post in the comments
Link an archive version. A great idea, but sets an expectation for the average user to have to copy the link to the post, go to the wayback machine, add a manual snapshot, then make a kbin/Lemmy/whatever post to the archived snapshot
But look at what we lose in the process of screenshooting a post:
We cannot write an answer to the OP
We have no follow-up of the conversation started by the original post
OP cannot edit his screenshot
OP cannot answer our discussion
OP doesn't even know that his post is discussed elsewhere
We have no connection with OP between our instance and his.
In short, we have lost all the advantages of the fediverse, for what? For the graphics, for the white on black background which reminds of Twitter. It's a terrible trade.
That being said, there's been instances (especially with regards to certain politicians on Twitter) where having the screenshot has been paramount, as the original post gets deleted.
Editing what you said is a right. You have the right to change your opinion. It's in fact a virtue. If you see something interesting in the comment, use the symbol and edit your post, and say that you changed your mind.
Link the original post and be done with it. Risk of the original post being deleted, making your post useless.
I like it. If you think you posted by mistake, if there was a misunderstanding or if you fucked up..... well, I think it's a good idea that the fediverse allows you to make things right.
Link a screenshot. You could add the link to the original post in the comments
Forget the screenshots. It's like using binary with git.
Just make it live, use the fediverse as it is supposed to be used and see where it leads us. We'll see how Ernest & Co can make something based on the fediverse which makes the process way more fluent and intuitive.
Without a date or any way to source the comment, it could be something from 2-3 years ago.
Obviously it's not in this case, but it's a very real issue on reddit (in fact there was a post recently) of people debating topics that were being reposted by bots from several years ago. Basically it lets people dredge up old, already talked about topics without bringing any recent relevance to the topic.
Then people who still prefer Reddit to Lemmy could do the same to us and would be totally justified. Do not make internet even worse than it is now. You don't like a service – don't use it. Do not make it worse for everybody else.
Then people who still prefer Reddit to Lemmy could do the same to us and would be totally justified.
There's a big difference: unlike Reddit, Lemmy and Kbin aren't actively pissing off the people who manage the place.
Do not make internet even worse than it is now.
That means not leaving your content in Reddit, where it'll attract more people to drop their content there, only to be erased in the future. Because no matter what we do, Reddit is going down and all info there is going with it.
Also worth noting that most content in Reddit is archived anyway, up to March/23 (when Reddit killed Pushshift access), so the actual loss of info would be next to zero.
Marvelous things are happening over at Reddit. Spez has locked himself in the company doomsday bunker and told everyone he'll come out once his "real" work friends get there. To watch the brush strokes of the maestro as they shape the future of so many unpaid laborers.
Reddit: You can't be private, people need to see the content, reopen or else!
TIHI: No.
Reddit: Fine, mods are gone and we've reopened the community. People who want to be mods speak up
Crickets: Cricket noises
Reddit: This sub is unmoderated, so it's now banned so nobody can see it
So... Reddit just reclosed the sub they said MUST be open.
To that end, Google recently unveiled a new feature called Perspectives, which aims to surface discussion forums and videos from various social media platforms, including TikTok, YouTube, Reddit, and Quora.
Google used to have this years ago. It was just a search toggle called "discussions" and it would prioritize search results from forums, comments, reddit, etc. It was extremely useful to find real information while avoiding SEO blogspam ad platforms, which is why they removed it in the first place.
I’ve heard that moneied interests are paying Twitter and now reddit behind the scenes to ruin their respective communities. It’s because every time something happens that shakes the foundation of who’s in charge, it’s always a social media coordinated public effort behind the push for change. The most recent one I can think of is the Twitter-fueled women’s rights movement in Iran. Or even the push to get progressive names like AOC elected.
So now we have rich interests paying CEOs to sabotage their own companies in order to better maintain the status quo.
I know this concept falls squarely into conspiracy theory territory, but with Twitter and reddit, both once bastions of progressive organization, going to shit at the same time, and threads popping up with the messaging that they explicitly want to avoid news and politics, you can’t help but wonder if there’s a concentrated effort behind the scenes to break up communities that are actually starting to make a difference.
It doesn’t sound too outlandish. The destruction of Twitter seems to attract some replacement from the far-right groups, Threads is already gaining far-right pages promotion and Reddit is still in the phase of destroying a once very influencial community. And all in the same time as the beginning of the US electoral campaign. It really aligns with a concentrated effort
I mean what makes far more sense is that interests rates have skyrocketed, which means VC money dried up, which means these platforms that haven’t made money in over a decade suddenly have to figure out how to run themselves.
It’s not just Reddit and Twitter, it’s YouTube and Twitch also.
It also might have something to do with the people running the show are now being tasked with real work and it turns out they aren’t good at their job.
Yeah I think this is the Occam’s razor explanation that makes more sense. And why might Reddit be doing such a similar thing so soon after twitter? Spez has said he’s in touch with Elon and admires his business decisions. Simple as that.
For those in control … there is no more terrible thing than to have all your workers talking amongst one another to discuss how terrible their situation is and what they could all do about it.
It’s the same in prison … if the guards and management keep everyone in control by isolating them all. Once the inmates start talking to one another, they start to conspire and plan on what to do about their situation. If they plan long enough, they’ll figure out how to do illegal activity, find specialty items or contraband … give them more time and they’ll start trying to figure out how to break out of their situation.
Then when things go too far and all sorts of illegal activity is taking place and people are trying to break out … the guards and managers will shake up the prison and breakup the communications system they were all using.
Gold originally was fine imo. Then it got out of control with so many different medals, some free, some cheap, etc. They made it so confusing and basically every post on the front page had some sort of award. They made it confusing and cluttered… At least they realized it was dumb.
I remember at one point, Talklittle mentioned the addition of rewards, and how he was against them, which was convenient since Reddit didn't give third party apps access to them in the first place. I know at one point I was able to buy gold in RiF, but that was gone the moment that Reddit introduced all the other bullshit rewards.
This article kinda makes me hope for reddit to survive. I want all the toxic, angry assholes to stay there, not desperately flee to the fediverse in search of their fix.
Kind of happened in r/apple you used to get the occasional good discussion in the comments until the last few weeks of 3rd party apps then it was an absolute cesspool of hate and trolls as people seemed to leave for other sites
No, defederation isn't shadowed. If an instance defederates from you, you stop receiving content from them, and it's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that you've been defederated.
Plus, on Lemmy at least, block lists are publicly viewable.
That's not how I understood defederation. If an instance defederates from you, that instance stops seeing stuff from your instance. But not necessarily the other way around, as defederation is a one-way action.
So if the Cow instance defederates from the Poopie instance, people from the Poopie instance can still see content and comments from Cow users. But Cow users cannot see content or comments from Poopie users. For the scenario you're describing to take place, the Poopie instance would also need to defederate from the Cow instance.
That said, it's still not quite shadowbanning. The admins of the defederated Poopie instance would be aware that Cows were not seeing their content. It would depend on the admins to inform the Poopie users that they've been defederated. If the users were not aware of the defederation, then it'd effectively be a shadowban.
If an instance defederates from you, that instance stops seeing stuff from your instance. But not necessarily the other way around, as defederation is a one-way action.
I invite you to check out, say, technology@beehive.org from lemmy.world, and from beehaw.org directly. You'll notice that .world isn't receiving updates from beehaw. A couple of posts seem to have filtered through somehow, but there are almost no posts or comments coming from beehaw.
The group is completely out of sync with its origin. And it's not because .world has blocked beehaw. Beehaw very much still appears under .world's list of linked websites.
Blocked instances are blocked, and when you block communication between sites, that's usually a two-way street.
Edit: Hi Lemmy users! You can't see the screenshots I've attached to this comment. I've just learned this thanks to @B1naryShad0w. If you'd like to see my comments with the screenshots, please view this comment thread via kbin by clicking this link.
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I've looked at a few examples, and I'm just super confused now. I've also tried searching for a simple explanation of what exactly defederation does, and I keep seeing conflicting descriptions.
Let's look at two examples (please bear with me as I only know how to attach one image to one comment at a time.) On this comment let's look at AskLemmy, a lemmy.world community, from Beehaw:
Notice that all threads (with one exception) were posted almost a month ago when defederation happened. That one exception was a Beehaw user who posted to AskLemmy 5 days ago. So we can see that BeeHaw, having defederated from lemmy.world, is blocking 100% of new content from this lemmy.world community, except for that one thread published by a Beehaw user who seems to be out of the loop 5 days ago.
Mostly makes sense to me so far. Beehaw defedearted from lemmy.world, so Beehaw can't see new stuff from this lemmy.world community. A little weird that there was a new post by a Beehaw user, but that still makes some sense with my previous understanding of how defederation worked, since I think(?) defederation is one-way. After all, if defederation was two-way, then how did a Beehaw user make a thread on lemmy.world?
Now lets look at Beehaw's technology community from lemmy.world:
On the one hand, this is not blocking 100% of the content from this community, which seems consistent with what I originally thought. Lemmy.world is not defederated with beehaw, so lemmy.world can see new content from Beehaw's communities.
But on the other hand, there is a ton of content missing. And it's not just federated content taking awhile to move from instance to instance, as I'm seeing posts from the last 24 hrs from Kbin that are not showing up on lemmy.world. So it appears that there is content that's being blocked from getting to lemmy.world. But it's not 100% of the content that's being blocked?
To make matters more confusing, I can see content published by Beehaw users on a Beehaw community from lemmy.world. Wtf is going on.
I appreciate the effort and have also verified your analysis myself to be true. However, and I don’t know if it’s just me, but I don’t see any images attached to your comments.
Thanks for calling that out. It looks like attaching images directly to a comment only works for kbin instances. This is what it looks like from kbin.social. I just tried viewing this thread from lemmy.world and the images were not showing up.
To be honest, I don't want to go through the effort of editing my comments to correct it right now. But in the future I'll go back to hosting images and linking them in my comments, so anyone from any instance can see them. That's a shame, because attaching images to comments in Kbin is super convenient. Oh well! Thanks again for letting me know.
Hrm it seems defederation needs some work put into it. If an instance defederates from another, there should be no way to see each other, one way or another.
For what it’s worth, there is a big problem with Lemmy.world federation. Lots and lots of posts to/from LW and other fully-federated instances take days to show, if at all.
I suspect it’s something to do with their size, but I base that on absolutely nothing.
I read a post by the Beehaw admins a couple weeks ago saying they were talking to the lemmy.world admin about resolving the issues that caused them to defederate, so it’s possible that they were no longer defederated when the post you found was made. My understanding is that automatic updates only happen when users on one instance are subscribed to the community on the other instance, so refederation might not be obvious. I expect they would have cut the cord again over yesterday’s security breach, though.
That’s pure speculation on my part, though, and quite possibly it was some kind of bug. But I am not particularly tech-savvy, so I tend to wonder about non-technical causes.
There is. Lemmy.ml is currently shadowbanning kbin for unknown reasons.
Lemmy.ml is blocking the bots kbin uses for federation. The devs have ignored anyone asking why. It's been weeks and only applies to Lemmy.ml, so it appears to be intentional. They're running slightly different code on their flagship site than what all the other instances use (which makes me wonder what else Lemmy.ml has changed compared to what's publicly available).
OLD angry assholes who don’t know how to navigate social media. They need Facebook because it’s easy and you can comfortably be a racist, homophobic, entitled prick and you’ll find a big audience that will stroke your ego.
Zero regrets. So far the content has been better and people have been nicer, the experience on Lemmy app I use is very similar to the 3rd party Reddit app I was using, and the official Reddit app is so much worse than both of them that I am not at all tempted to use it.
Ngl I miss all the niche communities from reddit that actually had content. Like there's nothing for The West Wing or The Wire on the lemmybin. Last hype shit for Starfield on the largest Starfield Magazine was like 3 days ago.
Not that I really need or get that much out of that content but it's shit I like to talk about. And sure I can create the communities or post the content, but it's like yelling into an abyss right now.
That'll change as more people join, of course, it's just a part I miss.
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