Does the reddit style format breed toxicity?

Does the reddit style format inherently make for a toxic environment? Or is it a culture of toxicity from the influx of reditors? For lack of a beter example, on stackoverflow, when someone down votes you, it comes with a comment saying how to improve. On mastodon, people can’t downvote you. These platforms are a joy to use, lemmy is depressing if you post. Its depressing because every post or comment, no mater the quality comes with downvotes, and usually no criticism to accompany it, you are left not knowing if youve made a mistake, or if its just trolls, bots, or idiots. At the end you feel insulted not improved. What do you think?

neko,

Instance admins can simply disable downvotes. You don't need them.

lagomorphlecture,

The only place on here that I’ve noticed downvotes is on comments that have been obviously social media shills (reddit or meta) or right wing type comments that are not the type of thing a community should support in my opinion. I’m not saying you’re doing either of those things and if you’re being downvoted in another context I don’t know why.

That said, downvotes shouldn’t really get you down. If you’ve said something awful then you deserve them and should reassess your outlook if you were unaware that your views or attitude were unpleasant. If you’re getting downvoted on a tech related thing then I don’t know what that’s all about but I would try not to worry about it too much because it doesn’t really affect your life, it’s just a fake internet down arrow.

Joe_0237,

Thank you, interestingly the thing that prompted me to ask was a tech joke, all (4) down-votes, I removed a jab at Apple and added a picture and the the responses was positive. The lesson must be one of these: That we have mostly strong apple fans here; jokes need a picture even if it does not add anything; or people look at the vote total to decide their mindset while reading and the first vote was down by bad luck. Or some combination of these.

lagomorphlecture,

Oooooh yeah people love their apple and I think you have your answer!

HobbitFoot,

It is a problem of an Eternal September. Reddit was set up where the downvote was supposed to mean more than just disagreeing with people, but the influx of users, especially those only participating with Reddit by upvoting and downvoting, couldn’t be taught what you were supposed to do.

Joe_0237,

Eternal September

i genuinely love that i had to look that up, and i learned something! Thanks!

schwim,
@schwim@lemmy.world avatar

As a former Redditor, I can only say that I’ve not yet begun looking at votes. Why do you determine the value of your post based on that? Make your post, read and respond to people who comment and have a great day.

Joe_0237,

That is the trap, isnt it. Votes are an awful metric for approval, and approval inst always needed.

cakeistheanswer,
@cakeistheanswer@lemmy.fmhy.ml avatar

It’s a distilled version of ‘the wisdom of the crowds’. With all the dog piling that comes with reactions to things that are pointed at the wrong audience. There’s generally some people with baggage in there somewhere who will take issue, and you get downvoted.

However, what’s always interesting about these platforms is where good ideas rise, where they come from, and how controversial they are, all of which you lose with the twitter/mastodon architecture.

It may be easier to find your crowd, but how useful is that to you depends on what you use your online presence for.

Joe_0237,

Good Take

lvxferre,
@lvxferre@lemmy.ml avatar

I think that the current downvote system is far from ideal, and ideally there should have some piece of “forced” feedback when you downvote someone, but keep in mind that a downvote is just “this should be less visible”. For example, people often downvote OK answers because an even better answer popped up, and they want the later to rise to the top. So a lot of times there’s no actual hostility in the downvotes.

And for other Reddit behaviours that people often call toxic (I call them SNOO - stupid, noisy, obnoxious, obtuse), I think that it’s cultural. The Reddit admins bred that behaviour into the users; and users are likely to carry it with them elsewhere, including Lemmy. I think that most of those individuals will get better over time here, and the ones who don’t will end leaving.

MiloSquirrel,

I feel like the issue with forced feedback when you downvote is you’ll get a lot of comments where its just 1-2 words, doesn’t say much, just a “No” or “Bad”. And if you require a min characters like the bneg forums you’ll just get “No. 10chars”

Requiring comments will cause people to half ass it at best, I think. Which, sure then people can downvote them, but are people going to write a well thought out comment for every “No”?

Is having 40 “I disagree” comments really better for discussion than just 40 downvotes?

lvxferre,
@lvxferre@lemmy.ml avatar

By “forced feedback” I was thinking more like having multiple types of downvote (“off-topic”, “rude”, “incorrect”, “I disagree”, “unfunny”…), so users need to pick one when downvoting something. It gives people a better clue on why a certain piece of content is being downvoted than just letting them assume, and it’s way less noise than 40 “I disagree” comments.

MiloSquirrel,

I could see that then, kinda like how you can react with different emoji on facebook.

Idk if I’d prefer it, but I think it could work

Joe_0237,

Thats pretty much what i was thinking. Also SNOO seems like a useful thing to have in the brain

Mastersord,

The karma/upvote/downvote system encourages engagement and gives users an idea of how others perceive their posts. It also encourages people to think about their posts and it helps keep garbage from clogging up the feed.

The problem is that posts are now “attention-centric” and that might lead to people posting stuff that’s more controversial or even “rage-bait” because it gets a reaction.

But honestly though, the toxicity was always there. It’s just that now people express it with an arrow click instead of a flame post calling out the OP’s mom.

I think anonymity or at least the perception of it on the internet breeds toxicity because it’s easier to hurt someone when neither party has to look each other in the eye.

rm_dash_r_star,
@rm_dash_r_star@lemm.ee avatar

I don’t think it’s the format. Forums generally get toxic when they’re too big. The negative influence of a toxic user is much greater than the positive influence of a non-toxic user. The bigger the user base the more toxic users. Eventually it gets to a critical mass where you’re seeing enough toxic replies to make the whole platform seem toxic.

Reddit is 18 years old. Lots of time to attract toxic users. I wasn’t on Reddit from the start, but people have said Reddit didn’t suffer toxicity until after it was around 10 years old. Lemmy is four years old now so it will be a while. Though Lemmy may attract a smaller less toxic crowd and avoid toxicity indefinitely.

I don’t have a high opinion of community at Stack Overflow as it started out elitist by nature of its policies and rules. Yeah that’s going to breed toxicity right out of the gate. I have to admit Stack Overflow has been a really good resource for technical information at times, but its community is harsh. As much as I’ve used it to find good technical information, I’ve never made an account there or had any desire to post there.

Barbacamanitu,

That’s a good point about toxic users having a bigger influence than non-toxic users.

It’s easy to see a comment that you mostly agree with and just not upvote it. But seeing a comment that’s factually incorrect or toxic will both welcome downvotes.

Solgrund,

Personally core belief that people create and breed the toxicity. Use any system you want if people behave toxic it will become toxic.

Joe_0237,

a lot of it could be the no-face aspect, we where that a lot

dudewitbow,

Not necessarily toxicity, but echo chambers. Echo chambers could then be used to be toxic.

Joe_0237,

At least here in the free world we have to manually build echo chambers and “The Algorithm” does not build them around us without our consent.

FartsWithAnAccent,
@FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

IDK, I think most of the toxicity comes from when something gets popular. I never read much into the votes on reddit because it’s usually more influenced by when you post than what you post. If you combined all the karma of my accounts it’d probably be in the millions but mostly I was just trying to either help people or make them laugh, never cared much about the points.

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