I think that ‘Star Trek - The Next Generation’ covered this very dilemma with (S2E18) Up The Long Ladder. In one hand you have stagnancy and in the other pure chaos. I don’t envy you for having to tackle issues like this because there is no perfect solution, but I would encourage you to find a balance. Balance is a prerequisite to longevity.
You would not have enjoyed holiday dinners at my house. While my parents were good people, you can’t pick your relatives. We had the infamous Uncle Tom and Aunt Janet, who would swallow anything and everything you had in the bathroom medicine cabinet, even if it landed them in the emergency room later. And Grandma, a devout catholic that spent every Sunday at church learning how to love thy neighbor, who would go on long cuss ridden tirades insulting and slurring on minorities. And then there was Uncle Pete, who was thrown out of Bob Evans on Easter Sunday for announcing to the entire dining room that ‘He could puke better than this sausage gravy’. I do actually miss Uncle Pete. He did have a hell of a way of getting his point across, and that sausage gravy was totally bunk.
While thinking about it all still raises my blood pressure even 40 years later, those moments brought their behaviors from my subconscious to my conscious where I could take notice of it. It did empower me to actively NOT be like that. I saw first-hand several of my future potential selves and chose to take a higher road. I find a bit of comfort in that. I wonder if I wasn’t exposed to those behaviors from a third person perspective, would I have been able to avoid them.
Oh, and sorry about dropping that bomb the other day. I was in a rare mood. I removed it as you rightfully requested of me. In my defense, I used the word appropriately, but I totally understand.
You seem like a decent enough fellow. Best of luck.
I think that ‘Star Trek - The Next Generation’ covered this very dilemma with (S2E18) Up The Long Ladder. …The one where the crew execute the clones that Planet A were making of them to make up for their lack of genetic diversity, and forced them to marry into Planet Ireland instead?
I think most storytelling in most entertainment is pretty fucked up. Another comment mentioned torture scenes in kids animated movies, I might want to add rape scenes in pretty much every episode of every TV series (often excused as historical realism).
Lately I got ultra-annoyed at how propaganda-y every police series is. Even the ones where police is depicted as corrupt, like for example The Wire. The criminals are always shown as a little more evil than even the most rotten cop. I can’t stand that anymore.
There is not a single show or movie I’ve seen recently that didn’t have this shit in it. I’m so tired at being sold this cheap, stupid, uncreative, misogynistic, always-the-same crap. Please tell me what to watch anymore.
I feel like lots of thinking like this or adjacent to this is going on around the fediverse, and part of the problem we’re all encountering is that many or even most of us don’t really understand this “design space” of homely/kind/safe/wholesome/fulfilling online placed particularly well. And so we’re either reaching for established models (reddit/twitter etc) or expecting too much of new technologies (decentralisation and federation).
In the case of holiday meals and beehaw, while reading your post, my immediate thought was how it’s simultaneously a fantastic metaphor and an inapplicable one for social media. A holiday meal, I’d say, is defined by its rarity and specificity. Once a year, family members and close friends gather together for the purpose of being together. I don’t see that mapping onto online social media … like at all … however desirable that demeanor and vibe is desirable.
And while being kind and open etc is obviously a good aim for a social media space, so long as it is social media, which means open ended discussions/topics, (relatively) open membership, relative anonymity, constant activity, and, let’s be honest, some expectation of providing some form entertainment to lurkers … the personal bonds and purpose of a holiday meal just can’t exist. Which is a problem, IMO, that goes beyond ActivityPub, because the moment you make a social media space more closed or exclusive while trying to still be a form of social media, it will become quieter, duller and less compelling to users (for better or worse) and eventually fall into relative disuse and so seem to fail at social media.
If you then want to recast social media, you then, IMO, need to think a lot about formats, UIs, media types and framing and how people are presented and interact … like to a large extent … because this whole “sending text messages to each other in a public space” can only go so far (which is a big problem I personally have with the fediverse).
I say this not to dismiss your and Beehaw’s goals … but really just to say … “that’s great, but underestimating how hard this stuff can be would not serve you or beehaw well IMO”.
Hope it goes well though and will be curious to see what happens to beehaw!
A holiday meal, I’d say, is defined by its rarity and specificity. Once a year, family members and close friends gather together for the purpose of being together. I don’t see that mapping onto online social media[…]while being kind and open etc is obviously a good aim for a social media space, so long as it is social media, which means open ended discussions/topics, (relatively) open membership, relative anonymity, constant activity, and, let’s be honest, some expectation of providing some form entertainment to lurkers … the personal bonds and purpose of a holiday meal just can’t exist.
Familial relationships are the product of time-tested, intimate bonds. They can’t be manufactured, and attempting to do so is likelier to limit comfort and expression from users in the absence of functional knowledge of others’ boundaries. Social media should, ideally, encourage cordial free expression, dissent, and disagreement, when (1) the focus of those activities are on ideas rather than people (e.g., other users), and (2) those ideas are not harmful to any other person or people. I actually don’t think Beehaw is great at this currently, with the strong caveat that I also believe it is much, much better and more earnest in its endeavor to do so than any other alternative I’m aware of. But I fear further seclusion would be a move in the wrong direction.
the moment you make a social media space more closed or exclusive while trying to still be a form of social media, it will become quieter, duller and less compelling to users (for better or worse) and eventually fall into relative disuse and so seem to fail at social media.
Observing from my own experience here (and the admins would obviously be well-suited to prove otherwise), too much of the contributions to this community are weighted toward the admins and mods rather than general users. Discussions get decent traction, but I notice that many of the posts themselves are coming from the elevated accounts. If this is accurate, it’s a significant point of failure that would conceivably hasten the “fall into relative disuse” in the event that just a few of these power users are unable to contribute as prolifically. Federation helps fill this gap.
All this being said, I want to counter-balance my criticisms by extending my gratitude and admiration for the admins and mods who’ve made this community what it is. I have an account on Kbin as well that can view much more of the fediverse, but I spend roughly 85% of my time here on Beehaw because of the strength of the community (and, admittedly, to a lesser degree because there are no good kbin mobile apps). It’s clear to see the amount of time, effort, and diligence it takes to create this space, and I am extremely grateful for it. For my own sake, I hope that Beehaw remains here (or on another federated service), but whatever direction is chosen I wish the experiment enormous success.
I actually don’t think Beehaw is great at this currently, with the strong caveat that I also believe it is much, much better and more earnest in its endeavor to do so than any other alternative I’m aware of. But I fear further seclusion would be a move in the wrong direction.
I’m curious in what ways you think we could improve? Would you care to expand upon this?
I’ll try, hope this makes sense. As a leftist space, Beehaw is a bit of an echo chamber. On its own, this is kind of a neutral value, maybe even a positive one (we’ve seen with brutal transparency what “free speech” platforms actually are). But echo chambers are vulnerable to the creeping growth of some inhospitable characteristics (being dismissive, derisive, reductive, etc.) toward ideas outside the narrow lane of the chamber. We treat conclusions as foregone and perceived opposition as hostile. And that’s the main thrust: I firmly believe that internet culture, broadly, mistakes and/or conflates things like ignorance, diverging personal experience, or even sufficient inarticulateness as opposition and treats it accordingly.
One of the most frequent examples I see here is the devolution of a minor disagreement (there was a relatively recent example concerning the fairness of a news headline) into a hyperbolic declaration of someone’s overall character (e.g., “because of how you’ve conducted yourself in this conversation, or the ideas you’ve expressed, you probably would have supported the Nazis” as a demonstrative example). At other times, I’ve seen relatively harmless stubbornness responded to with blocks or bans, which felt extreme to me despite the fact that the stubbornness was indeed frustrating and potentially (but not actually, yet) malicious.
I want to be explicit that I don’t think any inclusive community is well-served by being tolerant of harmful ideas. Harmful ideas should be countered, blocked, banned, censored, and burned in a fire. But I’d like to see non-hostile opposition, ignorance, diverging personal experiences, etc. treated with more cordiality and grace up until the point that they are effectively exposed as malicious. I think there are good people with bad ideas (I’ve been one of them and expect to be again) who could learn and grow in a community like this with the right balance.
Thanks for elaborating. It’s tough to decide where is ‘too far’ and when someone is behaving in a way that if left unchecked results in a slow decline into a space where nice people no longer want to participate. We tend to err on the side of caution because we’ve seen how evaporative cooling can ruin a nice place, but with strong checks/balances to try and reduce/minimize inappropriately stepping in, as well as inappropriate deletions and bans. We’re human though, we make mistakes, and ultimately it’s important to us that we create a space we haven’t been able to find elsewhere and sometimes there just aren’t enough people with enough emotional bandwidth to do the messy work of differentiating between someone who’s just stubborn and misinformed, and someone who’s being malicious (let alone issues that crop up with neurodivergence and not understanding what nice behavior is).
I truly do wish we had enough bandwidth to provide more cordiality and grace to everyone. Speaking of which, if you or anyone else who does have emotional bandwidth, extra time, and passion for seeing places like this exist on the internet and wishes to step in and help us stick to our principles, we’d love the help 💜
I should acknowledge how easy it is for me to commentate from my position as spectator! You and the rest of the team have very clearly put a lot of research and thought into cultivating Beehaw and it shows. I’m very lucky that this was my gateway to the fediverse during last summer’s exodus.
I wish I could volunteer to help but I’m rather flaky and inconsistent with my online time, as it’s necessarily well down my list of priorities. If that still sounds like a situation I could contribute through, let me know.
I posted last week about being anxious for a big exam I had coming up. I was getting physically ill from the anticipation, and so I decided to just send it instead of waiting and studying until the last minute (it’s a WGU OA, so I can take it whenever.)
I’m super happy to say that I absolutely crushed it! That’s my last sit-down test, so now all that’s between me and my Bachelor’s is some essays and a work-based-learning experience! Needless to say I’m doing pretty good. :)
I have a temporary dream (as in we’ll see how long this lasts…) of building a database of legislation by state that can easily be queried.
I think a lot of people rely on the news to tell them how to interpret legislation when it’s actually really easy to figure it out for yourself if you know where to look. And with the proliferation of AI, it should be even easier to know what legislation is without some political analyst with an agenda.
Anyway, the idea is to have all this available on one website that uses open source code for the underlying database.
it’s actually really easy to figure it out for yourself if you know where to look.
Yeah, but different people interpret legislation differently, and the gramatically literal interpretation isn’t always the “right” one. So it would be smart to also include links to any cases or precedents based on them.
That would be a great project indeed… just a heads up:
I was part of a group exploring to do something similar a couple decades ago. The main problem we found, was dealing with those first two points: by the time we figured out all the places a single “state” (this wasn’t in the US) stored all their legislation, they had already changed some of them. We realized that it would take either: collaboration from the government in terms of standardizing how they store things… or a constant game of chasing around the changes they made. At the time, we concluded it wasn’t practical to do it for free, and indeed some paid services have emerged offering something similar, but they’re not open.
My suggestion: if you managed to find a way for governments to make legislation accessible in a standardized way, that would be a HUGE success. Ideally, have it written into constitution, and/or use the constitution to beat government bodies into compliance.
Also a warning: the messy state of things, seems to be a sort of “job security” for some lawyer firms and companies offering the consolidation services, so taking that away may not be easy.
I do hope we stay federated, while I get that moderation is a pain for you Admins and better tools need to be developed, I think you all have been doing a very good job. Nearly all my interactions with the wider fedeverse we interact with have been positive or neutral, and I think it would be rather dead and boring here if it was just us. It’s nice to have diverse subscription feed where I can find posts on more than just the few communities here, especially slrpnk, Bajhaj, lemmy.ca, and midwest.social
Lot of that going around. If it is not the flu, covid, or RSV it is the cold. Our doctor was so backed up my wife had to use the online option provided with our insurance.
There are at least 5 people in our extended family that are sick… maybe more. Thought I was done with masks but I am back to wearing them at spreader like events.
I guess this is the long way of saying your not alone. Get well soon.
i’m on my last day of house sitting two big goofy german shepherds (+ a turtle). it’s been nice to veg out and chill with some mellow dogs and not have anything else to worry about. looking forward to sleeping in my own bed tonight though. i’ll be back here for a quick overnight on saturday-sunday, then going into winterfest weekend full ham.
it’s a turtle in recovery, so that’s the identification number! technically this turtle has recovered, but it’s too late in the year to release it, so it’s overwintering until it’s warm out again. this is all through the local vet school, NC state university. :)
From my side of the screen I can say I believe there’s a lot of untapped power in moderation tools. I know there’s issues surrounding development but I hope these will be resolved with time.
For example I block several users and communities on a daily basis. There must be others who do this as well. It doesn’t bother me at all. Perhaps we can tap into that. I’ve read about this moderation technique where you subscribe to the moderation of one or more other users that you trust. It’s an interesting idea worth trying out.
The truth is that moderation is a complex topic in society and I feel we are a part of moving that forward. Just look at any popular social media platform and how badly it’s managed there. Add to that that development is complex too and that any system design will tend to naturally align to certain biases.
Making a walled garden is a bit like leaving the table, and it’ll rob many potential future users of finding us. So ya it is the wild west right now but maybe we together can be a voice of reason and compassion.
Sometimes being alone is better than drama. Take the time to enjoy yourself. Don’t frame this as a negative. Go and do something you enjoy. Read a book while enjoying a cup of tea, watch movies, go out somewhere. The possibilities are many.
I am very lonely, because in this world I have been left behind. We are living in a pandemic, and yet most people pretend we do not. I am disabled, have long covid and have been left behind by the majority. I had to give up everything because people refuse to fucking mask and spaces accessible. Staying at home for christmas is the best thing you can do for your health. We are during a global covid surge, the numbers are very high pretty much everywhere. Travelling at this time, especially maskless, is a recipe for death or disability for yourself and anyone else who you would gather with.
I’ll come right out and say it. Big cities were a mistake. I say mask and have disinfectant at every door. I’ve worked in public spaces, and toilets are the worst. And the things people put in their bodies? Ew. Then you look at all the plagues in history that was prevented by common sense hygiene, and you kind of want to remind everyone that your personal space is and will always be 1m distance at all times - no exceptions.
Yeah, at the very least, the ways cities are should be completely reorganized and redesigned. Air filtration systems everywhere. Fancy self cleaning toilets. Accessible buildings. Prioritizing walking, bikes and mobility aid vehicles over cars. And air filtration in public transport. We could do so much better.
As many have said there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and you can’t know everything about everyone, so no matter what you’re going to end up supporting something unethical at some point.
That being said, all I can do is act on the information I have, and when I learn about some situation like this, I don’t have an easy answer or decision flow chart. But I do ask myself two questions.
How much will my support enable more of the behaviour I find abhorrent? And how much will the knowledge ruin my appreciation of the thing?
I cannot read Ender’s Game even though I always meant to since I found out about Orson Scott Card’s politics about ten years back. And while there’s (somehow) way, way worse people out there the knowledge, especially the holocaust denial, just ruins any enjoyment I could get from the books or movies, regardless of any separate-art-from-artist arguments.
But I am a huge Lovecraft fan, and he was also just the worst. But the guy’s dead, it doesn’t matter if I buy his books or not. And even then despite his popularity across Geekdom he’s a relatively niche author. His views aren’t going to reach a lot of people.
I think this works out differently if the creator is someone current and powerful or influential. If we can blunt the impact of a popular creator spreading toxic views that prevents a lot more bad than than the same frome someone dead or niche. Even if that’s only lack of support, that’s still more.
I guess what I’m saying it is has less to do with the details of the bad views or actions, and more about much my support helps enable those. The less I contribute by watching or buying or clicking, the less I’m concerned about it. Unless it just personally bothers me.
I don’t if that’s the right answer but it’s the once I’ve got right now
Well let me just help you about Ender there - imagine an akschyaly clever kid, fedora wearing, huffing their own farts while being annoying on twitter and trying to suck their own dick all day. The image is a pimply kid almost reaching their dick, the cum blasts past their face and hits mein kampf on the spine, the kid goes into a crying diatribe about something.
I think that’s about it really, might have missed a part of the plot
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