I’ve been a software engineer for many years so trust me when I say this has nothing to do with how hard or easy it is to install. I used to run Gentoo at some point so I’m not exactly CLI averse. The problem isn’t the installation, it’s maintenance. Shit just keeps on breaking for no reason and I’m tired of figuring out how to fix it.
Linux is simply an enormous timesink. It constantly needs handholding and babysitting in order to work. And it doesn’t even reward you for it with a superior user experience, just a steady stream of problems to fix. Windows might not be perfect, but it at least it works. Meanwhile, Linux is like an insecure girlfriend, it constantly needs reassurance that you still love it.
Linux needs constant babysitting? Hmm I wonder why the majority of the internet servers is Linux not Windows. Even in critical infrastructure where stability is valued, not cost.
However you can’t choose a bad distro (bad for your needs that is) ans expect a flawless experience. When I read your first sentence I expected you to be a video editor or in a field where the industry standard software is only limited to Windows. But if your a developer it’s 100% your fault. I am running Linux for over a decade with zero problems. Only time when I had a problem, I was running Arch (btw) and updating the system blindly, daily.
You aren’t dynamically changing configs, libraries and programs on a production server like you are on a user facing system. That the killer. Linux servers are only stable when you leave them alone.
Updates to servers are generally done by beta testing them on identical hardware in the lab and when you have a functioning image you send that to production. To expect that kind of treatment on a user facing system when you say update the web browser would be beyond unacceptable.
As long as GNU/Linux systems continue to have ABI compatibility issues and general buggy issues between updates, it will never be considered a decent user facing system.
Also the quality of code for CLI programs is far more roadtested than GUI related code since there are major corporate efforts to make Linux servers more stable. Since GUI systems aren’t needed for servers they don’t get the same level of attention. That attention comes from the KDE and gnome foundations which don’t have nearly the same kind of money.
There’s a reason people are celebrating Valve contributing to KDE and related GUI projects as there’s finally some real money being thrown at the problem with real results.
I have had zero problems with Linux so I lack knowledge and am overpaid? You have problems therefore you are paid fairly? Hmm sounds very logical. Any critical infrastructure project would be lucky to have you.
Furthermore, you have told another commentor in this same thread that they reek of incompetence because they have a 7 hour Windows install, yet I am being overpaid because I don’t have any problems in Linux? So a competent developer should breeze through Windows but should struggle in Linux? Is that it? Kinda contradictory don’t you think?
I disagree with the premise, but even if it’s true that people stay with Windows because it sucks less, that’s still a success story for Linux. External comparative pressure leading to more end user freedom. Think of where it could go next!
Are we still forgetting that Win12 will have subscription? Or at least it might. Then their terms of agreement state clearly that they will collect your personal data and share them if they see the need for it. I mean there’s more to it than being able to uninstall IE.
Idk, the whole “Megacorp is forced to do reasonable thing, but will still only do so in regions where the law applies” should further encourage people to move away from all their crap.
The overlap of people that will not remove the initial bloat (even if it’s a button displayed prominently on first start) and people inclined to use Linux in the first place is not that great.
Well, you could if the package was set up differently, or if you wanted to go at it manually. But they way the maintainers set the dependencies makes apt think it has to remove the whole DE, or at least a bunch of essential parts of it.
Can’t you pass something like –unmerge or –nodeps so package manager will ignore dependencies? And then add it to apt equivalent of package.prpvided to tell that this package is managed by another package manager(you).
Obvious? It’s closed source software. You don’t know jack fucking squat what it’s really doing no matter what you think you know. Because you don’t. You won’t no matter what you think you know even if you think you’re a programmer. You didn’t program Windoze. GTFO from ALL closed source software, OR ELSE.
Is this some AI generated answer? I refuse to think a person can talk like that.
The “obviously” comes from the article which states that Microsoft allows uninstallilng software which obviously means they always could do that. They just didn’t want to allow users to do it.
Why would you pay for an incompetent sabotaging system?
I installed both windows and Linux about a week ago. Linux was (with download and USB creation) a little over 30 minutes. Windows was an agonizing 7 hour journey through all sorts of dumb vague error messages, internet searches disconnecting and reconnecting drives, various rewrites the that USB drive, having to spin up a VPS in Linux and install windows there first… It was a fucking nightmarish hellscsape caused by a mix of windows developers (and their managers) incompetence and pure sabotage of people that use real operating systems.
Fuck everything about Microsoft, install Linux and stick with that. We have cookies
NGL I gotta say that sounds like a fluke. I’ve never had to spend more than an hour on a fresh windows install. I run Windows on my desktop and Linux Mint on my laptop. So while I haven’t done thousands of installs if 7 hours was a constant issue no one would be using Windows.
What kind og software did you need to find? Last time i did a fresh install of win10 (a couple of weeks ago), I downloaded Rufus to make the bootable USB and that was the only thing I needed to go “fish for all over the internet”… 30min later I was up and running, updates scheduled to run during the night when I didn’t need to use the computer.
How did you manage to do that? Installing Windows 11 only took me about 30 minutes last time. Installing Debian takes about the same time. And what does a VPS even have to do with all of this?
For me the 30 minutes to install is about right. After that I have usable Linux and an unusable Windows.
To get Windows to the same state:
Add 5 Minutes for clicking trough the "Do you want to enable handwriting? ((( We just allow ourselves to collect samples of everything you write to “improve our recognition engine” )))
Add 20-30 minutes of security updates (thankfully it got much faster with SSDs, before it could have been hours)
Add 20-30 minutes of installing necessary software like an office suite, PDF Reader with basic functionality, 7zip. This is only 30 minutes because I spent hours automating the downloads and installs trough scripts.
If it is my system or a company system: Add 20 minutes to go trough the settings of Win10Privacy to at least reduce the phoning home and to enable some necessary settings for working with the system like "Don’t restart at random times"
Add 10 Minutes to remove the installed bloatware like People, Windows Maps, Windows Experience Host, …
In summary:
Linux requires 5 minutes attention and is ready after 30min.
Windows requires 40 minutes of attention and is somewhat ready after 2h30min. Even if I skip the privacy stuff its still at about 1h20min.
To be fair: On Windows and Linux I immediately install ublock to Firefox afterwards, on Linux I run a single apt command to install some more niche software which takes about 3 minutes on a fast network connection.
I’m sorry but you are just cherry picking. I’m not going into detail, but it sounds more like you have no knowledge on windows then you do. There are many ways to shorten installs for programs, those are not windows system and can be removed from your time, same for win10privacy, same for the ‘bloatware’. In all that leaves 30 min install and 30 mins of security 'in the background’ still 30min.
I am very happy if you can enlighten me. Granted, I do not install Windows very often (otherwise I would bake all these things into an image), and there may be improvements. So feel free to make your point and save me time.
An no, security updates can’t run in the background. If I sit a user in front of a PC, the PC has to be secure. Which means that the zero day exploits from a few days ago which are already exploited in the wild have to be fixed. Also yes, software for basic tasks and configuration till usability is reached is part of an operating system install. Otherwise you have to compare the time to install a barebones Linux (1 Minute) with a bare Windows install (still 30 minutes).
I currently use chocolatey for automation of software installs. But Libreoffice alone takes minutes to install on Windows even on fast PCs. If you know a better/faster tool I am happy to listen.
So, I came here with a bit of knowledge in Linux having fucked around with Ubuntu and Arch here and there, and I can tell you, even with a sturdy and non-rolling release like Fedora Silverblue, there are easily things I can do in Windows that just work without any additional overhead or configuration that simply does not work in Linux, like fingerprint sensors.
You guys all say Windows sucks and Linux is the greatest thing since sliced bread but it still can’t do the fucking basics that Windows does in spades. When I install Windows on a machine, I have nearly a 100% guarantee that every single component is going to work properly with minimal config. When I try to do the same thing in Linux, it’s hours on the Arch wiki or deep into forums trying to figure out how to get something as basic as a fingerprint sensor to work. That’s not convenient for the average user, and you guys are not the goddamn average user, because you are okay with shit not working out of the box and doing configurations for a lot of little things that you would otherwise just take entirely for granted as simply working on Windows.
Download windows media tool. Start installation. Done in ~30 min. After install, downloads all necessary basic drivers automatically. Just have to download Nvidia GeForce. < I have installed my own PC yes, multiple times yes.
Enjoy your Linux, please don’t lie to prove unexisting superiority.
I thought Linux was long dead, so I installed piOS or whatever they call it rn on a spare computer and it seems to be working fine. It’s still alive guys.
Windows is made by a company that would make this change in some countries but not all countries. We are not free until we are all free. Some operating systems guarantee that. Others do not.
I don’t disagree with you but dude people are sick of the politicization of everything and their operating system doesn’t even get onto that radar. They are ignorant and quite happy of it. Please let the pigs eat their shit in peace.
That said, it is quite telling that Microsoft apparently finds it more advantageous to have two divergent feature sets than to apply the change universally.
I get where you are coming from. FWIW I’m being a jackass for the hell of it rather than trying to start a flame war. But if someone is to get upset about it, perhaps its something for them to reflect on later.
And still, it’s been years (even decades) that all computers in France were supposed to be proposed without OS preinstalled and yet it’s very difficult to find one, or even to be refunded the licence Price a posteriori. Laws are being voted, removed, revoted, reremoved etc. and all justice actions have been a massive failure for consumers. I hope this law will be more applied than what we had until now.
We are moving the correct way but we still are so far from equity.
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