Israel-Palestine megathread for the remainder of the weekend

the front page is now like half articles on this currently, so it’s probably time for a megathread because none of us want to keep track of 12 threads on this subject and all the resulting comments. only major subsequent developments (for example, boots on the ground; pronunciations by governments; that sort of stuff) will get their own thread. otherwise please post stuff in here for the time being. any threads not meeting this criteria will be locked and removed. thank you in advance for your cooperation.

hedge,
@hedge@beehaw.org avatar

Why couldn’t Biden have said about the hospital bombing in Gaza, despite the (supposed) evidence to the contrary, something like “this is a terrible tragedy for the Palestinian people,” (which he may in fact have said), but much more importantly, “it’s not clear who is responsible for this terrible attack,” even if there was 100% incontrovertible evidence that Islamic Jihad did this (which they may or may not have, I honestly don’t know). Everyone in the Arab world thinks, rightly, that the US will back Israel no matter what, and that we’re not a fair dealer in any of this. No one in the Arab world believes that IJ did this, they all believe Israel is responsible, and why shouldn’t they? What reason do they have to trust the US and Israel? This is where some diplomatic fudging could have really helped the situation. But Biden didn’t end up meeting with a single Arab leader because of this. At a certain point you have to throw the other side a bone if there is any hope of them ever trusting you. I confess that despite some things I definitely don’t like, I have been pleasantly surprised at how good the Biden presidency has been overall. But his trip to Israel may have made things a lot worse. No negotiations mean that no hostages will be released, no ceasefire can be implemented, no progress can be made.

luciole,
@luciole@beehaw.org avatar

A couple of points you might find interesting:

  • Biden was supposed to meet Jordan’s King Abdullah, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. Abbas cancelled his presence following the hospital bombing, then Biden discussed with King Abdullah and they agreed to call it off.
  • Biden was not complacent with Israel in his address at Tel Aviv. He urged Israel not to give in to rage, drawing a parallel with USA’s mistakes following 9/11.
  • During his trip, Biden finally managed to convince Israel to let humanitarian aid into Gaza.

I might be overly optimistic, but I feel that countries (including the US) supporting Israel are in the process of diplomatically clarifying that their support is not really unconditional and that peace is the only acceptable objective. In that sense I don’t think his trip was all bad.

hedge,
@hedge@beehaw.org avatar

I’m glad there’s something to be optimistic about 🥲

krellor,

To add on to your point, you publicly support allies while having private conversations counseling them on prudent courses of action. They don’t listen to you if you call them out publicly, which is usually a sign that privately articulated red lines have been crossed. I’m sure Biden is pressing them privately to have a more measured response, and is likely to have more traction than if he was publicly trashing them.

Just like you don’t use all available sanctions out of the gate with an adversarial state, to leave room to negotiate and leave some channels open. Diplomacy is more nuanced than “saying it like it is” all the time.

Five,

Dr. Gabor Maté Speaks Out on Israel and Palestine

ram,
@ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

CBC | As Israel expands Gaza offensive, it has lonely critics in Washington^(^^direct^^)^

As Israel expands its military offensive in Gaza, some Democrats in the US are expressing growing criticism of Israeli actions. Younger progressive Democrats have been more vocal in calling for civilian protections and a ceasefire. However, support for Israel remains strong among both Democratic and Republican leadership as well as the general public. While progressive critics want to see Palestinian lives prioritized, Israel sees no viable negotiating partner with Hamas controlling Gaza. The article discusses the long history of US support for Israel since its founding and changing views over time. Some analysts believe criticism from the left lacks real political power but could influence younger voters. Ultimately both sides express pessimism about prospects for peace given the deep tensions and lack of trust between Israelis and Palestinians.

It’s evidenced in the vote in the last U.S. Congress to top up American funding for Israel’s missile-defence system: a lopsided result of 420 to 9.

I checked who voted which way, and the following were Nay votes:

  • Cori Bush (D)
  • André Carson (D)
  • Jesús G. “Chuy” García (D)
  • Raúl M. Grijalva (D)
  • Thomas Massie (R)
  • Marie Newman (D)
  • Ilhan Omar (D)
  • Ayanna Pressley (D)
  • Rashida Tlaib (D)

Present:

  • Henry C. “Hank” Johnson, Jr. (D)
  • Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D)

No Vote:

  • Debbie Lesko (R)
Five,

Noura Erakat: Western Leaders & Media Are Justifying Israel’s “Genocidal Campaign” Against Palestinians

The unfolding crisis in Gaza, where relentless Israeli bombardment has killed more than 1,500 people since Saturday, is “a humanitarian catastrophe,” says Palestinian American human rights attorney Noura Erakat. She says Western leaders and the mainstream media have relied on racist, Islamophobic tropes to build a false consensus “that war is inevitable and that whatever consequences come out is the fault of Hamas, thereby further blaming the victims for their own killing and massacres.” Erakat also decries the Israeli order that 1.1 million residents in Gaza relocate under threat of a ground invasion. “What we are seeing is a genocidal campaign. You cannot forcibly transfer 1.1 million Palestinians in a 225-square-mile enclosed area. There is nowhere for them to go,” says Erakat, an associate professor at Rutgers University and author of Justice for Some: Law and the Question of Palestine.

Five,

Seattle Rabbi David Basior Eulogizes Former Congregant Killed by Hamas, Says Occupation Must End

As more details emerge about the shocking Hamas attack on Saturday, we speak with Rabbi David Basior of Kadima Reconstructionist Community, a progressive Jewish group in Seattle focused on social justice. Basior’s former congregant Hayim Katsman was among those killed in Israel by Hamas militants who stormed Kibbutz Holit. The 32-year-old was a gardener, mechanic and peace activist who worked with anti-occupation groups. During the attack, he shielded a woman from bullets with his own body, saving her life at the cost of his own. Katsman’s family have said that he would not have wanted his death to fuel retribution against Palestinians. “Life is the utmost. It is the most core teaching that I have received from my tradition, from my ancestors,” says Basior, who evokes the phrase “never again,” used in remembrance of the Holocaust and other genocides, and says that precept means the violence against Palestinians “must be spoken out against.”

iHUNTcriminals,

Eli5 the situation?

iegod,

Unfortunately I think this complex issue isn’t one that can be eli5’d accurately.

bbbhltz,
@bbbhltz@beehaw.org avatar

Maps and Misinformation

Sorry, not news or updates, but also not worth creating a thread.

I’ve been seeing lots of maps on Lemmy (mostly in French-speaking communities communities). A number of them look like this:

standard conflict mapshttps://beehaw.org/pictrs/image/df26b2c6-bf6c-4ce1-8216-75e6092a1f8f.webp

And then I’ve seen others that look like this (usually labelled as “fact” or “reality”):

alternative versionshttps://beehaw.org/pictrs/image/089e4f5d-5664-443d-be90-743ff3fa454f.webp

With the exception of an amazing 3-day event that took place in my school (we had some history professors/researchers come in over 3 days and present us arguments from both sides, then moderate a debate…) I received no education about this, and even if I had it would have been about 20 years ago or more.

I suspect we have all seen a version of this map before. I can read the Wikipedia, and watch the documentaries, but where should I look to be able to come to a decision on my own regarding these maps? Meaning, is one of them more factual than the other?

jarfil, (edited )

All those maps seem to show the same things, in slightly different ways. Basically, “statistics massaging” done with maps.

The “Fact” one seems to have the most information, as in:

  • Since 1917, the British had control ver the “Mandate of Palestine”, which was neither Israel nor Palestine.
  • Both Jews and Arabs started buying land and settling there, hoping to become the majority population in case a referendum was held when the British retired.
  • Since 1941, the Jewish ideated a plan on how to win a possible referendum by getting One Million of their own in there, presenting it in 1944 as a solution for Holocause refugees, but then realizing that it wouldn’t be enough, that they’d still be missing people and they’d need “Arab refugees”, as in Jews fleeing persecution from Arab countries.
  • In 1947, after WWII, the UN proposed a plan to split the land, which the Arab countries rejected.
  • In 1948 the British planned to GTFO… and just the day before, Israel was formed and declared that the whole land would be theirs.
  • The moment the British left, all the Arab countries attacked Israel which they saw as illegitimate… and with the idea of genociding everyone.
  • However, Israel won that war, and let any Arabs choose whether to stay or GTFO. About 150,000 decided to accept Israeli citizenship, about 700,000 got pushed into Jordan/Palestine.
  • As predicted, a lot of Jews fled Arab countries fearing persecution, which propped up the numbers of Israeli citizens, and further increased the hatred in Arab countries.
  • In 1967, Israel got attacked again, and won again, letting it lay claim to the area previously known as Jordan/Palestine.
  • But people in that area, were mostly Arabs, which didn’t sit well with Israel, who started a colonization process, mainly to cut off the “Palestine enclave” from Jordan… and to intersperse some Jewish population inside, lest the area decoded to hold a referendum and the Arab side win.
  • People in the Gaza area were Arab/Palestinian, and it has open access to the sea, so instead Israel tried to contain those people by walling them off, and telling Egypt to take them… which Egypt doesn’t really want to (we’re in the middle of a worldwide migration crysis, nobody wants millions of immigrants).
  • In 1995, after a lot dirty tactics from bother sides, a Palestinian governance was established… but by then the ex-Jordan area was already decimated by Israeli colonists.

Misinformation:

  • The “disappearing Palestine” map, starts by claiming all the territory was Palestine, which is false, it was a “Mandatory Palestine” under British control. If you compare it with the first “Fact” map, you’ll notice it claims all the white area as Arab owned, which is false.
  • The UN plan seems to be correct on all the maps, little to manipulate there since it failed anyway.
  • The 1948/1949 maps match what Israel claimed after preemptively declaring itself as a state, getting attacked, and winning.
  • The 1967 maps also show how Israel got control over the whole area, and progressively has been eating away at any possible Arab/Palestinian claim.
  • The 1995 and “NOW” maps show why Israel conceded a Palestinian governance: mainly over territories where people identifying as Palestinians are no longer a majority.

Personally, I’d say the “Fact” one along the AlJazeera one, paint the most complete picture.

For sources, check Wikipedia for:

Kwakigra,

deleted_by_moderator

    •
    Five,

    Egypt refuses foreigners passage from Gaza except as part of aid agreement

    Ahram Online , Saturday 14 Oct 2023

    Egyptian authorities have refused the passage of foreign residents of Gaza through the Rafah crossing, except as part of a foreign aid delivery agreement, Al-Qahera News TV reported, citing informed sources.

    zerfuffle,

    Not surprising, Egypt cannot handle 2 million refugees and once the Palestinians leave, there’s no way Israel is letting them back.

    sdx,

    According to IDF officers, the ground invasion of the Gaza strip was originally planned for this weekend but has been pushed back a few days due to cloudy weather, the NYT reports

    Krauerking,

    Oh come on… Who wants to commit war crimes on a dreary day? Let’s get some sun in here so the IDF can really see the blood spray as they shoot civilians.

    sdx,

    The USA are deploying a second CSG to the eastern Mediterranean

    I have directed the USS Dwight D. Eisenhower Carrier Strike Group (CSG) to begin moving to the Eastern Mediterranean. As part of our effort to deter hostile actions against Israel or any efforts toward widening this war following Hamas’s attack on Israel, the Strike Group includes the guided-missile cruiser USS Philippine Sea (CG 58), guided-missile destroyers USS Gravely (DDG 107) and USS Mason (DDG 87), and Carrier Air Wing 3, with nine aircraft squadrons, and embarked headquarters staffs.

    ram,
    @ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

    Three hundred killed, mostly children and women, in Gaza on Saturday - Palestinian health ministry; by Reuters^(^^direct^^)^

    ram,
    @ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

    McDonald’s Israel’s giving about 4000 free meals to the Israeli troops, first responders, and citizens^(^^direct^^)^

    In response, McDonald’s Saudi Arabia’s donating $533,000 to Gaza relief efforts while denouncing the contributions by McDonald’s Israel.^(^^direct^^)^

    sdx,

    Hamas appears to have set up roadblocks to prevent Gaza residents from evacuating south

    hassanmckusick,

    The IDF said that just like they said there were a bunch of decapitated babies before they walked that lie back

    sdx,

    What other purpose do you think the trucks barring the route south could serve?

    hassanmckusick,

    What?

    No that’s exactly what they’re for. But there’s no proof in that tweet of who put them there

    sdx,

    Who do you think put them there on the coastal road?

    hassanmckusick,

    I’m sorry is Hamas Aqua-Man now? Wtf does proximity to the ocean have to do with anything?

    zerfuffle,

    IDF reliability in reporting is at an all-time low.

    luciole,
    @luciole@beehaw.org avatar

    For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • news@beehaw.org
  • localhost
  • All magazines
    •
    Loading…
    Loading the web debug toolbar…
    Attempt #