Israel-Palestine megathread for the remainder of the weekend

the front page is now like half articles on this currently, so it’s probably time for a megathread because none of us want to keep track of 12 threads on this subject and all the resulting comments. only major subsequent developments (for example, boots on the ground; pronunciations by governments; that sort of stuff) will get their own thread. otherwise please post stuff in here for the time being. any threads not meeting this criteria will be locked and removed. thank you in advance for your cooperation.

iHUNTcriminals,

Eli5 the situation?

iegod,

Unfortunately I think this complex issue isn’t one that can be eli5’d accurately.

Five,

What an Israeli Ground Invasion Would Mean for Gaza - Time

ram, (edited )
@ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

Israel Is Walking Into a Trap^(^^direct^^)^

Five,

Archive version 404’d.

ram,
@ram@bookwormstory.social avatar

Oop fixed ty

speaker_hat,

Document of Hamas that ordered the murder of civilians and their kidnapping:

https://lemmy.one/pictrs/image/45cb1854-aac4-4606-9b35-b696ba979eaf.jpeg

Source: Hebrew, English (auto-translated)

It can’t be fake because they literally did it (babies, children, women and elderlies)

hassanmckusick,

https://lemmy.discothe.quest/pictrs/image/f23de24b-39b9-4e05-95e5-4b6455d41eb5.png

It can’t be fake because I literally did it (tall man, hat, theater)

t3rmit3,

Good thing no one I’ve seen is arguing that Hamas is good.

And also a good thing that Palestinians != Hamas.

hassanmckusick,

I have heard rumblings of people who believe that Hamas did not even attack and this was a false flag.

Prob propaganda but it def makes you think. I mean Israel did know about the attack ahead of time supposedly. How did Hamas get through the iron dome? Did anyone see where they went after? How did that girl get from the back of a Hamas truck to a hospital? Why haven’t I seen many photos videos from the ground?

This bad faith “evidence” just fuels the conspiracy.

t3rmit3,

No one is seriously questioning the authenticity of this attack, though I would not be surprised if Bibi knew of it (since, you know, they were literally told about it beforehand) and allowed it to happen to both avoid his legal troubles and to give his ultranationalist party and military a pretense for driving out or killing Palestinians.

Pearl Harbor and 9/11 weren’t fake either, and both were used to excuse atrocities too.

hassanmckusick,

I just wanna chime in and say I don’t believe it either.

I bring it up because it’s the only reason that I could think of that someone is out here posting “proof” of the orders.

At some point I’m sure we’ll see a blurred video of murder and then someone pointing at the people on the screen and being like “we know that guy, that’s Hamas s Samah, he lives at 123 Westy B. He is a Hamas and this is him murdering. Here’s the body of the victim later at the morgue.”

Thats the kind of evidence I “want” (I don’t want a video of murder but like, identifying people in the video and find out who they are and like… hard evidence)

But the “evidence” I was responding to is something I could forge from half a world away

HotChocoBum,

It can’t be fake because they literally did it (babies, children, women and elderlies)

This is literally a circular argument.

hedge,
@hedge@beehaw.org avatar

Why couldn’t Biden have said about the hospital bombing in Gaza, despite the (supposed) evidence to the contrary, something like “this is a terrible tragedy for the Palestinian people,” (which he may in fact have said), but much more importantly, “it’s not clear who is responsible for this terrible attack,” even if there was 100% incontrovertible evidence that Islamic Jihad did this (which they may or may not have, I honestly don’t know). Everyone in the Arab world thinks, rightly, that the US will back Israel no matter what, and that we’re not a fair dealer in any of this. No one in the Arab world believes that IJ did this, they all believe Israel is responsible, and why shouldn’t they? What reason do they have to trust the US and Israel? This is where some diplomatic fudging could have really helped the situation. But Biden didn’t end up meeting with a single Arab leader because of this. At a certain point you have to throw the other side a bone if there is any hope of them ever trusting you. I confess that despite some things I definitely don’t like, I have been pleasantly surprised at how good the Biden presidency has been overall. But his trip to Israel may have made things a lot worse. No negotiations mean that no hostages will be released, no ceasefire can be implemented, no progress can be made.

luciole,
@luciole@beehaw.org avatar

A couple of points you might find interesting:

  • Biden was supposed to meet Jordan’s King Abdullah, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas. Abbas cancelled his presence following the hospital bombing, then Biden discussed with King Abdullah and they agreed to call it off.
  • Biden was not complacent with Israel in his address at Tel Aviv. He urged Israel not to give in to rage, drawing a parallel with USA’s mistakes following 9/11.
  • During his trip, Biden finally managed to convince Israel to let humanitarian aid into Gaza.

I might be overly optimistic, but I feel that countries (including the US) supporting Israel are in the process of diplomatically clarifying that their support is not really unconditional and that peace is the only acceptable objective. In that sense I don’t think his trip was all bad.

hedge,
@hedge@beehaw.org avatar

I’m glad there’s something to be optimistic about 🥲

krellor,

To add on to your point, you publicly support allies while having private conversations counseling them on prudent courses of action. They don’t listen to you if you call them out publicly, which is usually a sign that privately articulated red lines have been crossed. I’m sure Biden is pressing them privately to have a more measured response, and is likely to have more traction than if he was publicly trashing them.

Just like you don’t use all available sanctions out of the gate with an adversarial state, to leave room to negotiate and leave some channels open. Diplomacy is more nuanced than “saying it like it is” all the time.

Kwakigra,

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