Guys, please stop using telegram if you care for your security and privacy
Telegram is not fully open source, sometimes they release the source, but the hashes of the builds don’t even match (so it’s a different source code) 🚩
Zero transparency about data handling, even when they get caught they don’t tell details 🚩 (Telegram in the recent years has got really shady reputation)
Very often ways they implement security is weird: non open source app, non open source server, leaking APIs, use of phone numbers, at some point they started asking for an email, non encrypted chats by default, never encrypted group chats… it can continue forever 🚩
Non-standard encryption is a real red flag, non-open-source 🚩
I know some people that work/worked for the police, and they can read all the messages easy peasy, i was trying to tell to the people many years ago, but everyone was so amused by the stickers. Now you can just read stories of the journalists and activists, and how they got imprisoned with the use telegram 👁️🗨️💀
PLEASE, STOP USING TELEGRAM IF YOU CARE FOR YOUR PRIVACY OR SECURITY
Except if you open source server, there’s no way to verify it is using same code anyways and their client is already open source so waste point.
sometimes they release the source, but the hashes of the builds don’t even match.
When did this happen? Source?
Signal asks phone numbers, emails are universally known. If you don’t want to give them your real phone number, buy one from fragment.com (their web3 service where they sell phone number for crypto). Emails are already public and they ask them only for recovery process and its opt on so there’s no problem with that.
All chats are encrypted by default from private to group using mtproto, where there have been no breaches found yet so stop spreading misinformation.
Again telling personal experience which maybe lie, can you share source of your claims? Which journalist got arrested due to telegram?
It’s been a while since I looked into it, and things might have changed since then, but some stuff off the top of my head:
Messages are stored on the server, not on the device
end-to-end encryption not enabled by default
uses proprietary encryption, making security audits difficult
Apart from that it’s somewhat politically questionable, based in Dubai (I think), with dubious financial backing and Russian developers. Because it’s closed source and the encryption is proprietary, there’s no way of knowing how much info it leaks.
Messages are stored on the server, not on the device
Yes, pretty much necessary to provide multidevice support
end-to-end encryption not enabled by default
True that and telegram sucks big here, but I donth think e2ee can be enabled in a feasible way for multiple devices.
uses proprietary encryption, making security audits difficult
The MTProto isnt open source but its fully documented, there have been security audits on it.
dubious financial backing
No. Pavel Durov have always said since starting he paid for telegram’s servers from his pocket, in recent years telegram has started monetisation programs to cover its costs.
Russian developers
The founders were born in Russia, but they now have dual citizenship of UAE and France. If you are talking about politically questionable, even signal have been accused of having backdoors for CIA.
Sure, fuck WhatsApp, but Telegram isn’t even end-to-end encrypted most of the time. Their group chats never are, and their “secret chat” encryption for non-group chats must be explicitly enabled and hardly ever is because it disables some features. And when it is encrypted, it’s with some dubious nonstandard cryptography.
It’s also pseudo open source; they do publish source code once in a while but it never corresponds to the binaries that nearly everyone actually uses.
And the audacity to talk about metadata when Telegram accounts still require a phone number today (as they did five years ago when this post was written) is just… 🤯
State-sponsored exploits against WhatsApp might be more common than against Telegram, or at least we hear about them more, but it’s not because the app is more vulnerable: it’s because governments don’t need to compromise the endpoint to read your Telegram messages: they can just add a new device to your account with an SMS and see everything.
(╯° °）╯︵ ┻━┻
Anything claiming to prioritize privacy yet asking for your phone number (Telegram, WhatsApp, Signal, …) is a farce.
Simplex - requires nothing, just install. But you connect with other people by sending a code outside of SimpleX. Though they’ve added a directory service for groups.
XMPP
Wire (not Wiremin), though it requires an email account, which is easily addressed with a disposable email.
Signal is very secure from what I’ve read, despite the phone number identifier.
Telegram isn’t perfect, but it is infinitely better than Whatsapp because it doesn’t belong to Facebook, and also isn’t from the United States. Also it can be used by normies without problem, unlike Matrix or Xmpp or what have you.
Brother, it has servers all over the world (including the US) where it hosts your data unencrypted. Telegram is nearly not inifinitely better than WhatsApp.
And the audacity to talk about metadata when Telegram accounts still require a phone number today (as they did five years ago when this post was written) is just… 🤯
Not only that, but I believe that they actively try to prevent VoIP numbers from being used to create accounts.
I don’t agree with everything but that last point of yours. Requiring your phone number only means your are not anonymous. There is no need to be anonymous to communicate privately. In fact, it can be counterproductive, since your are much more vulnerable to social engineering.
What a load of hipocrisy. The dude uses unauthenticated DH for his apps “secret chats”, which a bored student with a laptop can MITM in seconds. Other chats use just TLS, meaning they get to read EVERYTHING.
Users can’t report it because there is no way to tell for them
Atleast the one who breached can tell? no telegram users data have been seen on dark web yet, no person/org have claimed to get any vulnerability in their system. Also if its that easy to breach why govt’s keep banning telegram for not giving them userdata? despite telegram is the biggest app where most terrorist orgs operate, hub of piracy and illegal things, you can call it “public” darkweb.
I have some friends working in the police, many years they showed me how they can read messages of like anyone on telegram I was trying to tell people to stop using telegram for years, but now at least therecs some conversation is going on because of the journalists
I have tried to google, most of them were assumptions or russian agencies using ISPs to login to their account in which case its not telegrams fault. Can you provide a substantial proof?
That article literally praises telegram despite being non e2ee by default, authorities can only get ip address and phone number from it (those are public info already and both of them could be avoided by using voip amd paid VPNs), that just proves how solid mtproto have become. Also they are saying one can see your telegram message when they are physically logged in your account for which the Russian authorities took the help of their ISP, in that case its not telegrams fault, set up 2fa on your account or use VoIP.
Both WhatsApp and Telegram suck. Just like any other messenger that’s either proprietary or not end to end encrypted. Signal is clearly the best choice.
Signal is not the best choice, it’s just a somewhat aceptable middle ground. I prefer something that doesn’t require a phone number and something you can self-host, like XMPP.
Good luck convincing normies to use some obscure messaging protocol. It’s difficult with Signal, even harder with Matrix, basically impossible with XMPP. 99.99999% have never in their life heard about XMPP. Also most mobile clients absolutely suck. You also can’t get proper push notifications without completely ruining your battery life. What a great choice!
Conversations is only available on Android. And that’s the problem. You need different clients on different plattforms, etc. It’s just a mess. Some clients don’t support encryption and everything is just unnecessarily complicated, especially for new users. You can’t just tell someone “let’s chat on XMPP”. You need to explain to them what XMPP is, what app to download depending on what OS they use, tell them how to set everything up, etc, etc…
Signal is definitely not perfect, but it’s the best known private messenger and doesn’t compromise on privacy and security. It’s very simple to use, the setup process is basically the exact same as on WhatsApp or Telegram, it has good clients for every platform and they have operated safely with a great record for over 10 years.
I understand that other solutions might be better in theory, but if we keep suggesting a new obscure and hard to use messenger to noobs, they will never make the switch. In order to get more privacy for ourselves and the (potentially less technical) people we need to communicate with, let’s just get them to use something simple and private like Signal.
Yea, ive gotten pretty wide adoption from friends and family on Signal, but id love to have a comparable product with even more features/security/privacy
Matrix may get there eventually, but for now its Signal.
The major clients now do have OMEMO. Yea, I agree it’s flawed but that’s so far it’s the one I settled on. Do you know other, more refined selfhostable solutions? I am now looking for development there but doubt I’d get few people that I already got there to switch again.
Not aware that there is a modern decentralized secure and private chat protocol. Sadly. I also am not aware of any developmenta of something like that, so XMPP is the best we got (for decentralized open widly supported protocols)
I know that a lot of clients do encryption of the message body by default, but it still leaves a lot of stuff in plain text (afaik).
But there were many more vulnerabilities or “features” that WhatsApp allowed attackers or governments to get into user data. While I haven’t read anything about against Telegram security.
Firefox blocked this page because it might try to trick you into installing programs that harm your browsing experience (for example, by changing your homepage or showing extra ads on sites you visit).
No. Whatsapp’s metadata is not encrypted and can be used by its parent company, also backups are not secure. While telegram’s is opt in (yeah that sucks and here’s there excuse for that tsf.telegram.org/manuals/e2ee-simple), they are as secure as signal’s (if not more).
I am not talking about mtproto lmao. I was talking about their opt-in e2ee feature. Edit: Also the research you shared is based on mtproto 1.0 which telegram abandoned almost a decade ago and there have been No such defects found in mtproto 2 yet.
And that UX makes it a hard sell to non-tech/privacy folks.
I had a few converts, then they pulled SMS. My converts left.
Telegram has its problems, I completely agree the encryption issue is problematic. But how do you get non-tech people to use a tool like this when to have a new device get the history, or signing into multiple devices simultaneously, requires transmitting an encryption key? I really don’t know.
I know SimpleX is working on this very issue - their current approach requires switching between active devices by scanning a QR code (or sharing code between devices out-of-band). So currently only one device can be active with your credsntials/ID. It has an ok UI, I’d say slightly better than Signal. But it’s security and privacy are just about the best I’ve seen.
This seems to be the big hurdle - people want a simple login, most don’t care if their convos are stored in servers iut means they can just login.
I’m using telegram with a few people for just this reason, since it gets us off SMS. They like that they can use whatever device is in front of them.
Getting people to switch to Telegram is far easier than anything else, since it’s UI is much better than Signal, Wire, XMPP clients (which can be some of the best).
We know exactly how bad Whatsapp is from a privacy standpoint - I’d choose telegram over it any day.
I would prefer telegram because its just not from Meta. There is bounty on breaking telegram’s protocol too.
Telegram sells ads on public channels with consent of owners and the ads are based on the channel data and not users data. They are back up with their crypto schemes, infact idk whats wrong with crypto, they are better for privacy than normal bank transactions. Anyone cant pay from their pocket for lifetime, it was coming since longway because telegram have no parent company to fund it neither its founder are that rich to spend billions of dollars on it every year. Those “nitro” features didnt take anything away from free users tho, also if they are trying to cover up their cost from the userbase that just proves they have no dubious financing from backdoors.
I dont know how rape laws are connected with a messenger being based there. US have its social problems too or wherever signal is located, every country have social issues.
Yeah facebook is big enough reason to not use facebook. On top of that there have been no data breaches, almost no big outages in telegram till date. They offer a lot of features, from bots to channels, to large public communities and much more.
Telegram just claims its private enough and they never said they are e2ee by default, I dont see the misinformation here, yeah they exaggerate it sometimes but the fact that there have been no data breaches in a decade with almost 800 million monthly active users is quite a bit of achievement. They invested on developing their own encryption protocol, it maybe less private but they made it to remove complexities which signal have. There’s no point on having some 100% secure stuff when no one gonna use it due to complexities, telegram have fueled pro democratic protests worldwide and I thank them for that atleast (even they got banned in many countries for doing so).
MTProto is what Telegram uses for “Secret Chats”, their opt-in end-to-end encryption. Normal messages aren’t encrypted at all. They’re stored in plain text on Telegram servers. The fact that E2EE is opt-in already makes this app ridiculous. On top of that, it isn’t even secure or private lol
the fact that E2EE is opt-in already makes this app ridiculous
in matter of privacy, yes. But it have cool features so.
They’re stored in plain text on Telegram servers No, non secret chats use mptroto but with different schema, thats not plain servers. And no data breach have been reported in telegram yet if it was “that” easy to breach them. From my last comment: “Also the research you shared is based on mtproto 1.0 which telegram abandoned almost a decade ago and there have been No such defects found in mtproto 2 yet.”
I’m not saying that WhatsApp is the good guy here, Meta sucks but compared to Telegram I rather trust them if I have to.
And the unencrypted backups are only problematic when you use the automatic Google Drive upload.
They tell whatever they want until their claims can be validated with the source code. If we take it for granted that they use an original, unmodified version of the signal protocol programming libraries, there are still multiple questions:
how often do they update the version they use
what are they doing with the messages after local decryption (receiving), and before encryption (sending)
how are they storing the secret keys used for encryption, and what exactly are they doing with it in the code
Any of these questions could reveal problems that would invalidate any security that is added by using the signal protocol. Like if they use an outdated version of the programming library that has a known vulnerability, if they analyze the messages in their plain data form, or on the UI, or the keypresses as you type them, or if they are mishandling your encryption keys by sending them or a part of them to wherever
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