@BigBlackCockroach@lemmy.world
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BigBlackCockroach

@BigBlackCockroach@lemmy.world

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BigBlackCockroach,
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but he isnt involved in the way presidential candidates are usually involved in congress or senate.

BigBlackCockroach,
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except biscuits/ cookies

How do you deal this your love for cookies? I imagine cookies is probably one of the most dangerous weaknesses to have. Especially chocolate cookies with chocolate chips I would find difficult to pass on and probably would go through an entire display if enough milk was available. 😈

BigBlackCockroach,
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a larger group can without issue be constituted solely out of smaller groups. And the larger group behave as if the smaller groups were individuals in a smaller group.

recursion can fix this imho

BigBlackCockroach,
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the tragedy of the commons describes a different scenario not related to this…

BigBlackCockroach,
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Say a user spams CSAM material, how does that get removed? Do you have to wait for a plurality of users to agree (slow), can anybody remove anything instantly (easily abused), or can nothing be removed? (Illegal and also fucked up in this example).

exactly, this is one of the core obstacles to overcome, it’s clear to everybody that (with few exceptions) nobody wants casm material online or even existing in the first place. One user or a group of them shouldn’t be allowed to curtail the freedom of the entire community by subjecting them to awful content. However if ten downvotes means your post and you are gone, then that would be used by other (less) unsavory characters, to remove anybody they dislike…

This is what my post among others is asking, how to resolve this issue, with a technical solution?

BigBlackCockroach,
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Those are great suggestions!

BigBlackCockroach,
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Don’t like the mods

That is exactly the issue, I love the mods and all other users, this is not that I take issue with any specific individual. The underlying technical issue is not resolved as far as i know. How to determin community will without it being prone to abuse, tempering/manipulation or even outright sabotage (for example from rightwing groups like stormfront).

BigBlackCockroach,
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what are you going to do then?

this is exactly what this post is asking, of course the issue is broader and entails other issues like how to actually represent the community will without distortions and so forth…

Idk myself otherwise I would be working on the implementation already. I think maybe if the communty can vote out users that might be a first starting point, but then it would devolve into mob rule and that is not freedom but just might makes right.

BigBlackCockroach,
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I upvoted you, But sometimes dreams come true, if you make them.

I do not believe this to be laughable at all. We are faced with a problem: Online discourse is the rule, the public square is a thing of the past (as private entities encroach on it) -> if all online places are ruled with an iron fist by sometimes benevolent sometimes maliscious tyrants, we can kiss free speech good bye.

This problem demands a solution. There is nothing laughable about this. ridicule me all you want but I know I am on to something.

BigBlackCockroach,
@BigBlackCockroach@lemmy.world avatar

4chan is what i would call mob rule or the rule of the most brutal/vile/evil I was looking for something that is rule of the community, basically an enlightened form of self-organization. There was a day when a republic was considered utopian and anything that didn’t have a king was assumed to immediately descent into everybody vs everybody. I feel the same holds true for Anarchsim. However let’s discuss anarchism itself over at one of the anarchy subLemmings. This post is not itself about politics it is about how to implement community self governance technically i.e. a technial post/question. thanks for understanding.

BigBlackCockroach,
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sure! but i am not posting this for politcal reasons, I only mentioned this to open and honest about my motivations. This post is asking a technical question however

BigBlackCockroach,
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what if it was peer to peer? basically ever user contributing with their own hardware, like in bittorrent.

BigBlackCockroach,
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Anarchism doesn’t mean chaos or everybody vs everybody. Anarchism come from the greek word for without rulers. it basically means democracy rule by the people.

Anarchism is the organization of society without any one individual having concentrated power. basically people not giving their decision power away.

Detractors of anarchism have in the past century equated anarchism with chaos to discredit it.

BigBlackCockroach,
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The bigger issue is who runs the software and on what hardware? Implementing safeguards to keep server admins in line with the community would be much more difficult than mods.

could this maybe be adressed through the use of peer to peer technology similar to bittorrent?

BigBlackCockroach,
@BigBlackCockroach@lemmy.world avatar

I doubt you can

I am convinced it must be possible: The public square doesn’t have moderators. I want to recreate the public square online, I suspect this is mostly a technical problem.

I also see no reason why there couldn’t be a way for the community itself to deal with disruptive actors through some mechanism that does not put any sole individual in power.

BigBlackCockroach,
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I haven’t heard of it, thank you I appreciate it! <3

BigBlackCockroach,
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most wouldn’t want to pay for hosting when they can use Facebook for “free”.

Unless they get something they won’t find on facebook -> freedom.

I think your idea about everybody basically becoming their own instance is not as bad as it sounds. If social media was peer to peer, using bittorrent technology somehow the hosting issue might somehow be resolved.

That would still leave open the issue of self-governance: how would you genuinely determine the community wishes on any given subject? some may sabotage, others may use bots, other again may try to be disruptive and others may abuse other users or the community.

BigBlackCockroach,
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I’m not familiar with xitter what happened and how did it work?

BigBlackCockroach,
@BigBlackCockroach@lemmy.world avatar

If you want to discuss anarchy let’s do that on an anarchy subLemmy. This is not a political post, even though I mentioned my political leanings, for the sake of full disclosure.

The question i am asking is technical: how to implement community self-governance.

BigBlackCockroach,
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Maybe not no moderation but rather no mods. Moderation could be somehow community driven. If you get a certain number of downvotes you are out. But that would have other issues like mob rule.

BigBlackCockroach,
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anarch

this isn’t a political post, I am asking a technical question. I just stated where I’m coming from to be honest and upfront with everybody.

BigBlackCockroach,
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It only worked with primitive and small groups of people

Through recursion any organizing principle that works for a small group can be extended to work on a group of any size. Example the military: 10 soldiers are a squad and lead by a seargant and ten such squads are lead in exactly the same way by a Leftenant. In turn 10 of these companies are then ran by a commander in the exact same fashion.

BigBlackCockroach,
@BigBlackCockroach@lemmy.world avatar

Cool. then create you own lemmy instance and run it the way you want.

that is the point I don’t want it to run how “I” want but it should be ran however the community as a whole wants it to.

I think you are misunderstanding my question.

This is not a social issue but a technical one.

If you have votes, they can be trivially rigged by somebody creating a number of sock puppet accounts. If anybody can just do how they please, unsavory characters will flood the site with aweful content. If you require ID or a phone number (those can both be faked) then you just introduce a whole other set of issues, by basically doxing everybody to the people who run the site, and by extension the powers that be.

I feel this problem requires cryptography of some sort and the ability to establish identity for users without de-anonymizing them. idk if that makes sense to you

BigBlackCockroach,
@BigBlackCockroach@lemmy.world avatar

We have to assume that the majority of users will not be disruptive unless driven by the environment. Otherwise we might as well stop right there.

Assuming that it follows that such moderation without any individual in power might still be implemented by reflecting the community will through some mechanism. So voting doesn’t work as long as everybody can create a million bot accounts. Maybe there is a way to prevent that. Same with other approaches. I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody can come up with a technical solution for this.

BigBlackCockroach,
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Once a mod is in position, the community has no influence over his/her/their decisions.

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