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gregorum, (edited ) to risa in Happy Irish Unification yearšŸŽ‰

letā€™s just ignore how the pretext for this line was Data observing how, sometimes, terrorism is an effective vehicle for social and/or political change.

edit: just to be clear, this isnā€™t a criticism, just an observation about the glibness of the meme as compared to the seriousness context.

Transporter_Room_3,
@Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website avatar

Sometimes it is effective. Just ask everyone who salivated over the PATRIOT act.

Now whether is justified is an entirely different story.

gregorum, (edited )

that was Dataā€™s whole point. Then, just as Picard was about to dish out a bunch of huffy, self-righteous moral indignation, their conversation got cut off by an incoming message or some other rather convenient interruption. Trek was often bold in how it approached controversial sociopolitical subjects. And, sometimes, it scampered off without honestly addressing them.

this occasion was one of the latter.

edit: although, one could argue that, due to the fact that Data got his comment in before Picard was able to give a self-righteous counter-argument, the writers, in fact, were quite brave. The comment was so controversial, in fact, the episode was banned in several markets which refused to air this episode, and it still remains banned in some places to this day.

From Memory-Alpha:

Due to political sensitivity, as Ireland was still in the midst of the Troubles when ā€œThe High Groundā€ aired in 1990, the reference to Irish unification and terrorism in the episode resulted in its removal from first-run in the United Kingdom. To date, some syndicating networks will not air the episode, and it was only in 2007 (fifteen years after its first run, nine years after the conflict ended in a peaceful manner) that it was broadcast on the BBC.

VioletTeacup,
@VioletTeacup@feddit.uk avatar

In fairness, itā€™s less controversial and more that the line is outright offensive. At the time, people were being murdered by acts of terrorismin in the troubles, so to wontonly say that those attacks are effective and will get results was extremely insensitive. Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism shortly after it happened, or the 2015 Paris attacks.

That being said, itā€™s still an interesting point that Data raises in the episode.

gregorum, (edited )

Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism shortly after it happened

hereā€™s the thing, though: by no measure could this statement be considered even remotely true. if someone, very boldly, were, today, try to make the argument that ā€œthe Troubles were worth it,ā€ I dare say that theyā€™d have a good case for that argument, despite the heavy controversy which would come with it. The argument you propose, conversely, lacks the obvious evidentiary support required to substantiate suchā€¦ an ambitious arguments yours.

And I certainly donā€™t support it.

edit: itā€™s a matter of factual and evidentiary support. come back with evidence to support your claims.

VioletTeacup,
@VioletTeacup@feddit.uk avatar

Do you want evidence that people died in the tororist attacks, or that the statement is offensive? As to the first, youā€™re free to read up on the history of the troubles yourself if you like. As to the second, itā€™s a matter of opinion, not fact, but considering that history, one that I feel is fair enough. As far as Iā€™m concerned, comparing a single terrorist attack to a series of terrorist attacks is more than reasonable.

gregorum, (edited )

Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism shortly after it happened

hereā€™s the thing, though: by no measure could this statement be considered even remotely true.

what does the following statement have to do with it?

Do you want evidence that people died in the tororist attacks, or that the statement is offensive?

because, at no point, did anyone ask for evidence of nor call into doubt either of those claims.

VioletTeacup,
@VioletTeacup@feddit.uk avatar

It was and still is unclear what you were asking me to prove. A comparison isnā€™t a statement of fact, itā€™s to illustrate how two things are similar. I further explained why I feel that it was fair to compaire them. If you want to keep picking things apart for the sake of it though, have at it.

gregorum, (edited )

It was and still is unclear what you were asking me to prove.

I made myself very clear:

Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism shortly after it happened

hereā€™s the thing, though: by no measure could this statement be considered even remotely trueā€¦The argument you propose, conversely, lacks the obvious evidentiary support required to substantiate suchā€¦ an ambitious arguments yoursā€¦.come back with evidence to support your claims.

A comparison isnā€™t a statement of fact, itā€™s to illustrate how two things are similar.

which you failed to do spectacularly by comparing two things which bear no resemblance in the way you suggest:

Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism

because it wasnā€™t, for it achieved none of its intended goals. if it is your assertion that it did, itā€™s your job to prove that, which you have not.

I further explained why I feel that it was fair to compaire them

no you then used this straw man instead:

Do you want evidence that people died in the tororist attacks, or that the statement is offensive?

then you used a series of unrelated equivocations rather than addressing the flaw in your logic: the lack of efficacy of the 9/11 attacks as a tool for social or political change (the entire premise from the start).

If you want to keep picking things apart for the sake of it though, have at it.

youā€™re not a victim because you made a terrible argument and got called out for it.

is that clear enough for you now?

VioletTeacup,
@VioletTeacup@feddit.uk avatar

Thereā€™s no reason to be rude. I strongly suggest you reread what I said and consider the context of the thread. I never said that 9/11 was a successful use of terrorism, I said that the statement Data made about the troubles being successful was offensive and would be similar to saying the same thing about other terrorist attacks. You then aggressively began demanding evidence for something that was never a statement of fact, making it unclear what you were talking about. When further questioned, you became genuinely insulting for absolutely no reason. I wonā€™t be responding again, but please take some time to consider how you approach discussions in the future.

gregorum,

I never said that 9/11 was a successful use of terrorism

I have quoted you several times saying exactly that.

I said that the statement Data made about the troubles being successful was offensive and would be similar to saying the same thing about other terrorist attacks.

you may have intended to argue that, but you clearly argued:

Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism

and now you keep insisting that:

You then aggressively began demanding evidence for something that was never a statement of fact, making it unclear what you were talking about.

when you very clearly said this:

Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism

and now are acting indignant that I have to keep reminding you of that and how youā€™re somehow unclear of why after Iā€™ve explained it several times.

Iā€™ā€™m very sorry you canā€™t wrap your head around this. and, yes, itā€™s best you donā€™t respond again, as Iā€™d just keep repeating myself.

VioletTeacup, (edited )
@VioletTeacup@feddit.uk avatar

ā€œItā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism.ā€ Sorry, I donā€™t know how this could have been clearer. Take care!

gregorum, (edited )

if thatā€™s what you meant, perhaps you should have said that at some pointā€¦

I donā€™t know how this could have been clearer

by saying what you mean and actually providing evidence to back up your claims, as I have said repeatedly.

VioletTeacup,
@VioletTeacup@feddit.uk avatar

Thatā€™sā€¦ literally what I saidā€¦

gregorum, (edited )

except for the first time you said it in your last comment, show me where you said ā€œ9/11 was a terrorist attack" before. because what you were arguing before was:

Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism

do you have amnesia?

VioletTeacup,
@VioletTeacup@feddit.uk avatar

That was a typo. Iā€™ve edited the comment to show my original quote.

gregorum,

ok, so, you do have amnesia and have forgotten our entire conversation. well, then I suggest you go back to the beginning because Iā€™m not walking you through this again.

porthos, (edited )

In fairness, itā€™s less controversial and more that the line is outright offensive. At the time, people were being murdered by acts of terrorismin in the troubles, so to wontonly say that those attacks are effective and will get results was extremely insensitive. Itā€™s sort of like saying 9/11 was an effective use of terrorism shortly after it happened, or the 2015 Paris attacks.

I mean I get that it is a pretty touchy subject, but honestly at the end of the day the 9/11 attacks were stunningly effective at doing exactly what Bin Laden wanted us to do, get involved in a long drawn out war that undermined the stability of the US and accelerated its collapse.

The asshole literally wrote this all out in a letter and I am glad it made the rounds recently because we took the bait hook line and sinker. If as a society stories had trained us to think of terrorism not as some existential evil that comes from satan but rather a brutal political/military strategy enacted to accomplish certain logical political aims we might have been more equipped to deal with a 9/11 response more rationally. Specifically maybe we wouldnā€™t have just signed off on US warhawks throwing Iraq into the mix for absolutely no good reason than imperialism (Bin Laden must have been whooping and hollering happy when he heard the US decided to get itself stuck in TWO endless wars because of his actions).

VioletTeacup,
@VioletTeacup@feddit.uk avatar

Interesting; I didnā€™t know that! Itā€™s definitely an interesting subject to say the least.

magnetosphere,
@magnetosphere@kbin.social avatar

Important context. Damn.

ummthatguy, to risa in Happy Irish Unification yearšŸŽ‰
@ummthatguy@startrek.website avatar
Transporter_Room_3,
@Transporter_Room_3@startrek.website avatar

Jesus christ that episodeā€¦

I dare anyone to Watch that and tell me casual racism against the Irish died out a long time agoā€¦

JoMiran, to risa in Happy Irish Unification yearšŸŽ‰
@JoMiran@lemmy.ml avatar

I got really hopeful during Brexit that Ireland would unite and Scotland would leave.

abbadon420,

Scotland could never leave. Britain doesnā€™t want to loose Scotland and Europe doesnā€™t want to split up all the British kingdoms and have them join one by one.

Northern Ireland has a chance to leave the shithole that is brexit by joining Ireland, but does Ireland want that? Youā€™re gonna spark a fire if you do that. The politics and rebellions of the 80ā€™s are only dormant, the sentiment is far from gone.

init, (edited ) to memes in Pelosi labels anti-genocide protesters in the US as funded by China.

Wait let me get this straight. The two countries sheā€™s trying to pin on anti-genocide activists are two of the biggest contributors or genocide? Get fucked Pelosi.

Devdogg, to memes in Pelosi labels anti-genocide protesters in the US as funded by China.

Wait, didnā€™t she just say they were influenced by Russia??

Dio, to memes in 1984 Omen
@Dio@lemy.lol avatar

Lol.

CaptnNMorgan,

You must give your Cape and Sceptor


<span style="color:#323232;">                                                             To meee
</span>
Rom, to shitposting in Title
@Rom@hexbear.net avatar

ngl that room looks cozy as fuck

kig_v2, to shitposting in Title
@kig_v2@lemmygrad.ml avatar

SNORTED

davel, to shitposting in How LemChapomyDotgradChatDotMl Users Look When You Post 500 Stickers And Emotes Per Month
@davel@lemmygrad.ml avatar
Tolookah, to memes in electrician meme

I almost had a gotcha, but electricians donā€™t really make network cabling.

Zoot,

Network cable also doesnā€™t do male to male lol what? You do mean patch cables yes, like cat#? Rj45 ends definitely require a female end, and you surely arenā€™t splicing the wires together with dolphins i hope.

Neato,
@Neato@kbin.social avatar

A male to male electrical cable with wall socket plugs is a fire hazard. There are some made to be used to connect a generator to a house but it's a really bad idea.

gnutrino,

Thereā€™s a reason theyā€™re nicknamed ā€œsuicide cordsā€

Tolookah,

Agreed, it still had me thinking about others that they might make.

anarchoilluminati, to shitposting in ADHD
@anarchoilluminati@hexbear.net avatar

Gottem.

BmeBenji, to memes in Some of the most šŸŖ¤FUCKEDšŸ§ŖUPā˜ ļø beats šŸ¤°EVERšŸ«„CONCEIVEDšŸ«ƒ

My man Biggie Cheese is the most fucked up beat boi

pan_troglodytes, to opensource in Microsoft's Windows 12 is expected to be even worse than Windows 11, functioning as a paid "subscription service" or forcing users to watch ads in order to use it without paying

thatā€™s ok, ill just use linux

nick, to opensource in Microsoft's Windows 12 is expected to be even worse than Windows 11, functioning as a paid "subscription service" or forcing users to watch ads in order to use it without paying

Just pirate the business version. All that bullshit is stripped out

deadcatbounce, (edited ) to opensource in Microsoft's Windows 12 is expected to be even worse than Windows 11, functioning as a paid "subscription service" or forcing users to watch ads in order to use it without paying
@deadcatbounce@reddthat.com avatar

First micro was an Acorn Atom around 1981. First home built PC in around 1988.

Used Windows from the very early days of 3.0 when (Xerox?) Gem became the less useful competitor.

Around Win 2003, XP era they started taking useful functionality out or burying it and taking the useful KB articles off the net.

About that time I wanted to look at VoIP and stumbled into VoIP@home which was hosted by CentOS and I, initially, ran in a Win 2000 VM.

Not long after MS bought Hotmail and found that Windows servers couldnā€™t keep it going and they had to replace it with UNIX. Maybe that timeline isnā€™t quite right.

Started transitioning away from Windows that that stage and am so glad I did. I think Win 12 will just consist of a start button and everything else will require daily subscription.

From being a Win fanboy to just wishing heā€™d have taken the whole thing to that Epstein island with him and left it there.

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