Downvotes = “I disagree” or “this is bad and you should feel bad”?
I think I’ve settled on the latter. Disagreement is maybe best communicated by the absence of an upvote? And downvotes work best when they signal something that is just off base, and while not reportable, is not appreciated at a broad cultural level.
Its both. It will never, not be both. This idea that there should be some rule that we have to up vote things that we disagree with because it’s well written is cope from people that needs to go outside.
Comments get downvoted because it failed to convince people to agree with the comment and that makes it a bad comment.
But as an intelligent person, you can also discriminate between something that doesn’t convince you personally, and something that is completely without value or irrelevant.
When you refrain from downvoting in the former instance, you contribute to a more healthy discussion. Not every person that I disagree with is a bad person; similarly, not every comment that I disagree with is a bad comment.
Would you like to make an example of a good comment that you disagree with? Because in my world comments that I disagree with are bad comments. If they were good comments I would agree with them. I am not some teacher grading essays and giving points for good structure.
I am not some teacher grading essays and giving points for good structure.
That’s exactly my point. You are not the ultimate judge of what is good and what is bad. I’m not telling you to upvote things you disagree with, I’m simply telling you to not downvote unless it’s clearly not relevant.
All of your comments on this thread are good comments that I disagree with. Sometimes, disagreement leads to growth.
Yes, it really bugs me when I get downvotes but not one single comment articulating what they are not liking or what they disagree with. I could not care less about the score, I’m here for discussion and also debate. I often find when I ask “why the downvotes” it’s because people misinterpreted what I wrote (my fault, I need to be clear) or I used info they didn’t have (something I know because of an area of interest that I think it’s common knowledge in that group). Both can “fixed” by discussion.
Same man. But you hit the nail on the head, regardless of how you upvote or downvote, its usually even better to just make a comment and explain your thoughts, respectfully of course.
I agree with the above convo you've been having, but your comment made me think, so I'll play a little devils advocate here: do we want 1000 "I agree." comments following each other comment? Not really. There needs to be a simple way to say "I like this but don't have anything to add". An upvote accomplishes this.
As for downvotes, yes they need to be more than "I disagree". Something akin to "I don't think this contributes". I liked someone's suggestion that we need more than the binary up and down. Maybe a "troll" vote too.
I caught the joke :) I mentioned playing devils advocate cus I don't want to actually attack you or anything, I just saw an interesting opposing viewpoint that I hadn't heard expressed yet. I think your closer to the best solution in general tho
You’re taking things way to personally on the internet if you worry about down votes. It’s not people’s job to explain everything to you. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn’t, learn to move on from downvotes.
Goes too far. That a social media comment is the limit of what is possible as far as persuasion and learning goes, especially on difficult or controversial topics, is plainly wrong. Mind shifts can be hard work. And so there’s plenty of space in which a comment can be making a worthwhile point, politely and clearly, without it ever being able to be persuasive, just by the nature of the audience and topic.
There’s also low-effort/value comments that agree with your worldview but are bad contribution to the debate. Especially on controversial topics.
I’m sure there will always be lots of updates for things that shit on the opposition, especially when the majority thinks the opposition is morally and intellectually corrupt, but I’d rather those posts/comments be demoted (or e.g. relegated to a shitposting community) so healthy discussion can happen. And the truth can be seen more fairly.
As a side note: some of Reddit’s majority opinions which I broadly agree with, I found myself shifting away from, because most of its supporting posts are stupid arguments. And some of the opponents I’ve gained sympathy for, because whenever I check the source for hate against them, it’s ill-founded. I tried not to take much opinion from Reddit anyway, but I love it when good debate frames the truth more clearly.
I stick to the original “Reddiquette” which I wish more people stuck to or even fucking READ for a start.
Downvotes were meant for off-topic and spam nonsense. They were NEVER meant for disagreement. If you disagreed with someone you were encouraged to comment in response. It fostered a much better and interesting community with people of differeing views not afraid to voice their dissent.
You would literally get right and left-wingers having heated but civil debates with each other and neither would be getting heavily downvoted. Can you imagine that happening on Reddit nowadays?
When Diggers and the general populace jumped on Reddit downvotes just turned into a spiteful and underhanded way of saying “Fuck your opinion and I don’t feel like justifying it”.
This resulted in echo chambers where people were too afraid to voice their true opinions cos they’d get downvoted and at worst banned from the subreddit by over-zealous mods who’d forgotten what downvotes were for.
I have a personal theory that this accelerated the polarisation of politics across the English-speaking world. Maybe if Republicans* didn’t get so heavily downvoted they wouldn’t have turned to places like The_Donald and 8chan to vent in like-minded echo chambers. They could discuss things without getting villified and have their views challenged in a civil manner.
*NB. Shouldn’t matter but to be clear I’m a left wing Brit. I’m just using Donald Trump/Democrats as a will known divisive issue.
I LOVE Lemmy because it has the oldschool Reddit vibe where people will disagree and neither person is downvoting the other. They just have civil discussion. Much better!!
Personally I NEVER downvote unless it’s utterly meaningless, pointless or just downright spam. I recently added one more trigger for me to downvote though: Low effort bullshit like “This” or puns that add ntohing to the conversation except to garner upvotes for their ‘comedic’ value.
There’s difference in disagreeing in opionion and thinking someone is just wrong. In the latter case, I find it reasonable to suppress their comment using downvotes.
This right here. For a while after moving to Lemmy, people were using voting like this. Now it’s back to downvotes everywhere on things people disagree on.
I think someone else mentioned the same here, but as I’ve browsed down the opinions, I wonder if it’s good for different communities to have their own subculture on what votes mean.
For sure, outsiders dropping by might vote ‘counter-culturally’ and unhelpfully, but you can get a general sense of understanding in a community.
For r/all-alike stuff I’m sure things are different.
General discussion threads, sure - ‘up’ = ‘good content’, ‘down’ = ‘irrelevant’. Irrelevant could be because it’s not to do with the matter at hand, it could be hateful, trollish, whatever.
Post asking for a specific fact, like in ye olde askahistorian? Up = correct, down = incorrect. Doesn’t matter how well written or how good the intent is, downvoting for disinformation.
One of the things that Slashdot got right was being able to upvote / downvote with a reason. (Perhaps only being able to upvote / downvote occasionally too, which stops brigading.) Made it possible to filter on why things were good, save ruining your fake internet points when you were mistaken about something as opposed to being an arsehole.
Interesting! I’ve kinda thought this myself, that having a sort of sentiment meta data attached to online actions would be an interesting way to go, kind of as a substitute for the body language and gestures we use and pick up on in real life.
Enter: the wheel of upvote options and the multidimensional spectrum of downvote options. Don’t worry, I’ll ask Google to analyse my life history and feed it into the emote-i-vote.
Come to think of it, I like the attach emoticon thing in GitHub (and lots of other social media? But I’ve liked it in GitHub) to get a relatively convenient and concise expression of “I like your message in this particular(ish) way”
It doesn’t have to be a button. Just let users see how many other users saw their comment. If a user scrolls into the comments section and stops on my comment for a second or two, that counts as a read.
Alternatively, tally up the total number of user-seconds spent viewing my comment. Or maybe an average. Just something that lets me know I’m not a ghost!
Course I have my own biases but. I don’t want to see people get downvoted for saying things I don’t like just because I don’t like it. Also anyone who downvotes honest questions is just being mean.
Same, and also “this has already been said in this thread. You should have upvoted the existing comment.” Basically a tool to improve signal-to-noise ratio of the discussion.
I am not some teacher grading essays and giving points for good structure.
That’s exactly my point. You are not the ultimate judge of what is good and what is bad. I’m not telling you to upvote things you disagree with, I’m simply telling you to not downvote unless it’s clearly not relevant.
All of your comments on this thread are good comments that I disagree with. Sometimes, disagreement leads to growth.
On Reddit, up/down was intended to be used as relevant or not relevant. Then Facebook came around with the Like button and changed the standard.
Coming from the perspective of Digg, Reddit was about sharing external content and giving something an upvote was used to promote that content while a downvote was used to discourage that content from being seen. It was democratic in that the users were relied on for ranking posts without the need for moderators having to establish rules and remove things.
Then Reddit employed an algorithm and most people visit Popular and All making it a shitstorm of irrelevance. People upvote stuff they like that has absolutely no reason to be posted in a sub. Never mind everything that’s gone on with Reddit in recent months, it’s users’ inability to properly use the upvote / downvote buttons that has caused the site to become absolute trash.
Here, we have the added tool of the Star to indicate that we like something while at the same time downvoting it because it’s not relevant to the sub. The problem is that the vast majority of people don’t want to think about or put any effort into anything. At this point, anything that looks like a thumbs up is getting selected because they like it.
If you disagree with someone, you shouldn’t do anything unless you have something to say. Engage with them in conversation and express your point of view - this is “social media”. If others feel your point is relevant you should get an upvote; if you’re off topic you should get a downvote.
Reading over the other comments here, I think most people are expressing a similar perspective. It’s about rankings, not feelings.
Disagreement is maybe best communicated by the absence of an upvote?
There is a quote “You can not not communicate” but on the internet you can. If I get no upvotes, I don’t know if no one has seen it or people actively ignored it and it’s a bad advice to feel disagreed on when no upvotes.
I personally feel frustrated when I get downvotes but no comments because I don’t know why I’m downvoted. Some instances here in the lemmyverse (like mine) don’t have downvotes enabled so I don’t even see downvotes.
I think it’s best to engage in a conversation if you disagree in a constructive way and downvote without comment if you feel this is beyond help.
The thing is, downvotes mean whatever the person downvoting feels like they mean. Personally I don’t downvote anything, only upvote.
It would be interesting to have a bot that looks for bad actors—by that I mean users who abuse the downvote and do not use it the way the community agrees that it means. And have a mod review and take action if necessary.
Add comment