Does the reddit style format breed toxicity?

Does the reddit style format inherently make for a toxic environment? Or is it a culture of toxicity from the influx of reditors? For lack of a beter example, on stackoverflow, when someone down votes you, it comes with a comment saying how to improve. On mastodon, people can’t downvote you. These platforms are a joy to use, lemmy is depressing if you post. Its depressing because every post or comment, no mater the quality comes with downvotes, and usually no criticism to accompany it, you are left not knowing if youve made a mistake, or if its just trolls, bots, or idiots. At the end you feel insulted not improved. What do you think?

ImplyingImplications,

Just post what you want to post and ignore the votes. A few downvotes is to be expected. Try not to read into them so much.

Ggtfmhy,

Alternative way to think about it: 10% of people are insufferable assholes. Do you want them to be happy with what you say?

Barbacamanitu,

That’s a great way to think about it.

alaxitoo,

I barely posted on Reddit due to the thought of people hating what I said or posted 😊 I think here is more friendly since it’s not huge, I share what I like and if people don’t agree that’s cool! As long as it makes someone happy it’s worth it ✨

alianne,

This sparks a few different thoughts for me:

  1. I believe there are a few Lemmy instances that don’t have downvotes enabled. (Beehaw might be one of them, but don’t quote me on that.) If downvotes are a stress point for you, you could try joining one of those instances.
  2. I personally find both upvotes and downvotes to be useful as a way for me to quickly see the community’s reaction to a piece of content. If I’m scrolling through my feed and see a post with many downvotes and few upvotes, for example, I know that post is unlikely to interest me and will move on. Conversely, a highly upvoted post or one with a mix of both upvotes and downvotes is more likely to have a good conversation in the comments in my experience.
  3. If I make a post that receives a large number of downvotes - or if most of my posts tend to be downvoted - that’s a signal to me that I’m either not communicating my message well (confusing, passive aggressive, etc.) or that my message itself may not be welcome (hate speech, misinformation, etc.). In either case, I use that as a mental trigger for me to reflect on my posts rather than a reason to become unhappy with the community/platform as a whole.
Joe_0237,

Thank you, this is very helpful and well thought out

MiloSquirrel,

I would also add that getting a post mass downvoted can be a sign that a community might not be a good fit for you.

Like, using reddit as an example, if you see someone spreading anti-lgbt hate and getting upvoted, but when you try to be like “Hey that’s not cool” or explain why they’re wrong you get massively downvoted, it can be a really good sign that maybe it’s not a great place.

alianne,

I agree, and I would extend this thought to also include situations where it’s simply the wrong audience for your post. The content itself may not have anything wrong with it, but if you post a casual joke or comment without much depth in a community that’s built on deep conversations and well thought out replies, for example, you’re likely to be downvoted simply because the context wasn’t appropriate.

Barbacamanitu,

Great point.

lvxferre,
@lvxferre@lemmy.ml avatar

I think that the current downvote system is far from ideal, and ideally there should have some piece of “forced” feedback when you downvote someone, but keep in mind that a downvote is just “this should be less visible”. For example, people often downvote OK answers because an even better answer popped up, and they want the later to rise to the top. So a lot of times there’s no actual hostility in the downvotes.

And for other Reddit behaviours that people often call toxic (I call them SNOO - stupid, noisy, obnoxious, obtuse), I think that it’s cultural. The Reddit admins bred that behaviour into the users; and users are likely to carry it with them elsewhere, including Lemmy. I think that most of those individuals will get better over time here, and the ones who don’t will end leaving.

MiloSquirrel,

I feel like the issue with forced feedback when you downvote is you’ll get a lot of comments where its just 1-2 words, doesn’t say much, just a “No” or “Bad”. And if you require a min characters like the bneg forums you’ll just get “No. 10chars”

Requiring comments will cause people to half ass it at best, I think. Which, sure then people can downvote them, but are people going to write a well thought out comment for every “No”?

Is having 40 “I disagree” comments really better for discussion than just 40 downvotes?

lvxferre,
@lvxferre@lemmy.ml avatar

By “forced feedback” I was thinking more like having multiple types of downvote (“off-topic”, “rude”, “incorrect”, “I disagree”, “unfunny”…), so users need to pick one when downvoting something. It gives people a better clue on why a certain piece of content is being downvoted than just letting them assume, and it’s way less noise than 40 “I disagree” comments.

MiloSquirrel,

I could see that then, kinda like how you can react with different emoji on facebook.

Idk if I’d prefer it, but I think it could work

Joe_0237,

Thats pretty much what i was thinking. Also SNOO seems like a useful thing to have in the brain

luthis,

Downvotes are not a reflection on you, they are a representation of how much everyone else agrees or disagrees.

I don’t personally want the downvotes hidden or removed like how it is on Youtube.

DuskLoaf,
@DuskLoaf@lemmy.world avatar

I’d like an option, user side perhaps that just tucks it away, doesn’t remove it just don’t show it

Joe_0237,

they did remove downvotes on youtube tho :(

scrubbles,
@scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech avatar

This is why I’m in favor. I’m not the hugest fan, but if the alternative is YouTube or facebooks like system then I’ll take the downvotes. Otherwise you get the low quality like farms where minions memes are uploaded everywhere and there’s no way to say “we hate these, stop posting them”

Joe_0237,

lol that is a very good point

s6original,
@s6original@lemmy.world avatar

I like the way it was here. Points seem to be working correctly or did. I think it’s a bad idea to put point totals on a users profile for everyone to see. I don’t think totals are or should be important. But upvotes and downvotes are indicators of how much value a reader thinks a post/comment has. You can’t tell the temperature in a room without numbers. But I would rather not see a reddit-like karma system.

can,

Yet every app seemingly wants to show me a total :(

XiELEd,

Yeah, I wish there was a feature that lets you switch between total-only and lemmy format.

Widowmaker_Best_Girl,

People on Lemmy try to rationalize that they’ll use the downvote as intended (off topic content) but our ape brains eventually just make downvote = I don’t like said thing.

I wish we could do away with upvotes and downvotes altogether.

Narrrz,

I think having some form of "I agree with this" or similar helps to make you feel engaged with the content (for better or worse).

I think perhaps the actual person responsible for the post or comment shouldn't be able to see the results, though, otherwise it just becomes another ego building thing, and you see people strategising explicitly to build karma like on reddit. instead, the author should see a rating, like "slight approval" "mixed feelings" "strong dissent", etc.

notacat,

How dare you. As a former redditor now lemming I would wilt into a shriveled, frail, incontinent, barely conscious entity without the ego-fueling fire of my all-powerful downvote.

/s

ghostwolf,
@ghostwolf@lemmy.fakeplastictrees.ee avatar

During my time on reddit, I’ve learnt to appreciate downvotes. Silent feedback is much better than passive-aggressive replies that serve no purpose other than letting the person vent out.

Joe_0237,

idk, it sounds good, but to me its a lot like getting a grade with no comments (for the sake of example)

stealth_cookies,

Most of the time the downvotes I would get on Reddit are on topics where I disagreed with a couple of the early people and they downvoted. This would cause a cascade of people piling on. Other times I could make essentially the same comment and get lots of upvotes.

Not a big deal either way, it is boring to always be aligned with everyone else as long as you are open to constructive discussions about it.

Jellojiggle,

I got majorly downvoted once for sharing my opinion on not wanting to travel to a foreign country alone as a woman. A lot of flippant comments too. Like okay, this is not the sub for me. I still can’t believe I was attacked like I was.

FartsWithAnAccent,
@FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.world avatar

IDK, I think most of the toxicity comes from when something gets popular. I never read much into the votes on reddit because it’s usually more influenced by when you post than what you post. If you combined all the karma of my accounts it’d probably be in the millions but mostly I was just trying to either help people or make them laugh, never cared much about the points.

CAPSLOCKFTW,

Mastodon was very depressing for me, this follower centric self presentation stuff is super not my style, it don’t want it to be about me, I most likely suck but I say smart things some times, so I want it to be about the stuff I say.

Plus I don’t mind being downvoted into oblivion. I actually think that this can be a good thing. It means that there was something at least controversial about what I posted so I might be wrong or have to argue better.

Lastly, mastodon is too much safe space and filter bubble. I want to read things from people that I disagree with and I want to argue with them in good faith. When I tried this on mastodon, I got misquoted, blocked, harassed… You name it.

Joe_0237,

Thank you for your insight!

cakeistheanswer,
@cakeistheanswer@lemmy.fmhy.ml avatar

It’s a distilled version of ‘the wisdom of the crowds’. With all the dog piling that comes with reactions to things that are pointed at the wrong audience. There’s generally some people with baggage in there somewhere who will take issue, and you get downvoted.

However, what’s always interesting about these platforms is where good ideas rise, where they come from, and how controversial they are, all of which you lose with the twitter/mastodon architecture.

It may be easier to find your crowd, but how useful is that to you depends on what you use your online presence for.

Joe_0237,

Good Take

Steve,
@Steve@compuverse.uk avatar

I’m thinking you care too much about the thoughtless reactions of anonymous strangers.
Remember… In this game, the points don’t matter.

Joe_0237,

its strange because its not the disapproval that gets me, its not knowing why. I guess the lesson is that if someone did not even say why, its not really something anyone actually cared about.

Mutelogic,

This is exactly it. They don’t care about your post or you or anyone really. For them, it just feels good to bring down others.

Joe_0237,

i hope/believe that the intent is rarely malicious, that its not really a significant thing at all on that side.

schwim,
@schwim@lemmy.world avatar

As a former Redditor, I can only say that I’ve not yet begun looking at votes. Why do you determine the value of your post based on that? Make your post, read and respond to people who comment and have a great day.

Joe_0237,

That is the trap, isnt it. Votes are an awful metric for approval, and approval inst always needed.

dudewitbow,

Not necessarily toxicity, but echo chambers. Echo chambers could then be used to be toxic.

Joe_0237,

At least here in the free world we have to manually build echo chambers and “The Algorithm” does not build them around us without our consent.

SkyNTP,

For lack of a beter example, on stackoverflow, when someone down votes you, it comes with a comment saying how to improve. … These platforms are a joy to use

I don’t know what part of the internet you are from, but where I am from, Stackoverflow is looked down on as the quintessential example of toxic behaviour.

I’ve found some of the most dismissive people in tiny stack exchange groups, and experienced similar unexplained downvotes.

What SO, Reddit, and Lemmy maybe all have in common I think, is people tend to agree or disagree based on their convictions, as opposed to agreeing or disagreeing as a means of interaction.

I guess this puts the conflict and disagreement front and center. But at least then I know where people stand.

Perhaps it’s important to not take opinions too personally, and remember that incencere agreement has its own problems.

Joe_0237,

I disagree about SO, though I am not a fan of it for other reasons. Interesting thought about acting on convictions. Thanks.

Solgrund,

Personally core belief that people create and breed the toxicity. Use any system you want if people behave toxic it will become toxic.

Joe_0237,

a lot of it could be the no-face aspect, we where that a lot

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