I don’t give af if my president has horrible hair or a terrible fake tan, as long as they have good policies. There’s a million bad things to say about Trump but picking on his looks just serves to divide us instead of focusing on real issues. Hell my senator looks like Lurch and wears basketball shorts instead of suits but he’s doing great things, so I support him.
Lowest common denominator. Easy content that’s bound to get clicks. When this happens, in my mind it begins to cast doubt on criticisms. It literally just becomes the orange man bad memes. Sometimes I feel like pointless division is the point. Quarrelling among ourselves while they sit in their hypocritical ivory towers.
Fellow Lemmings how can we create social media were the users are king/queen?
I doubt you can. Every forum I have been involved with that tried this quickly descended into a shitshow.
It is the tragedy of the commons every time.
post Scriptum: just having a voting mechanism, might be gamed by unsavory charcters or groups to game such a system, unless voting requires your clear name id, which comes with other issues of course.
This does little, to nothing. Even when you have to put you account id to a vote it does nothing to people who want to be disruptive and if you can create multiple accounts (which you can here...), vote bombing will happen.
I am convinced it must be possible: The public square doesn’t have moderators. I want to recreate the public square online, I suspect this is mostly a technical problem.
I also see no reason why there couldn’t be a way for the community itself to deal with disruptive actors through some mechanism that does not put any sole individual in power.
Yes it does and it always has. There has always been social group control in the public square
I also see no reason why there couldn’t be a way for the community itself to deal with disruptive actors through some mechanism that does not put any sole individual in power.
Cool. then create you own lemmy instance and run it the way you want.
Good luck.
one question, if the majority of the accounts on your instance vote to allow CSAM, what will you do?
While you may be an anarchist, someone (you, as the one running the instance) will be legally responsible.
Cool. then create you own lemmy instance and run it the way you want.
that is the point I don’t want it to run how “I” want but it should be ran however the community as a whole wants it to.
I think you are misunderstanding my question.
This is not a social issue but a technical one.
If you have votes, they can be trivially rigged by somebody creating a number of sock puppet accounts. If anybody can just do how they please, unsavory characters will flood the site with aweful content. If you require ID or a phone number (those can both be faked) then you just introduce a whole other set of issues, by basically doxing everybody to the people who run the site, and by extension the powers that be.
I feel this problem requires cryptography of some sort and the ability to establish identity for users without de-anonymizing them. idk if that makes sense to you
I feel this problem requires cryptography of some sort and the ability to establish identity for users without de-anonymizing them. idk if that makes sense to you
Sorry, but that is laughable.
You want people to be both responsible and anonymous at the same time.
I upvoted you, But sometimes dreams come true, if you make them.
I do not believe this to be laughable at all. We are faced with a problem: Online discourse is the rule, the public square is a thing of the past (as private entities encroach on it) -> if all online places are ruled with an iron fist by sometimes benevolent sometimes maliscious tyrants, we can kiss free speech good bye.
This problem demands a solution. There is nothing laughable about this. ridicule me all you want but I know I am on to something.
If what you're looking for is a decentralized pseudonymous system. Then this is absolutely possible with today's cryptography.
It's called public-private keys. You create a private key that you can use to "sign" your messages. And people can verify that is was you that wrote the message by using the public key.
No one can pretend to be you because only you have access to your private key and the public key can't be used to find out what the private key is.
It's still anonymous because you don't have to say who you are when you create the private key.
It's not perfect because the same person can create as many different keys as they want. So you can't really "ban" someone. They'll just create a new key and pretend to be someone new.
That is exactly the issue, I love the mods and all other users, this is not that I take issue with any specific individual. The underlying technical issue is not resolved as far as i know. How to determin community will without it being prone to abuse, tempering/manipulation or even outright sabotage (for example from rightwing groups like stormfront).
just having a voting mechanism, might be gamed by unsavory charcters or groups to game such a system, unless voting requires your clear name id, which comes with other issues of course.
Why? I thought you were an anarch? Why do you fear that something could be exploited? Why the gatekeeping, when all users should be monarchs?
Communities work because there are members that take care about them, and foster them. If there aren’t then everything will collapse because not everyone shares the same value and even outright disrupt or destroy those communities.
sure! but i am not posting this for politcal reasons, I only mentioned this to open and honest about my motivations. This post is asking a technical question however
The problem with anarchy is that 50% of people are below average intellect, Implementing the normal distribution, we can say that 30% of all people are dumb as fuck. Since we know that the wiser one yields, it is clear that the true power comes from the idiots, rendering it useless.
If you want to discuss anarchy let’s do that on an anarchy subLemmy. This is not a political post, even though I mentioned my political leanings, for the sake of full disclosure.
The question i am asking is technical: how to implement community self-governance.
Still, I think you're misundernderstaing what anarchy is. It is not the absence of people in positions of governance. It is the rejection of unwarranted/unjustified power positions. In that sense, if the community feels that a mod is something they want to, as other people have commented, keep the place clean, and as long as the mod can justify their work and what they do to the community, that is perfectly compatible with anarchism
I think the only way it could work would be if everyone had their own self-hosted site, otherwise the admin/owner would have power over the users. With everyone using their own individual instance, they can block content they don’t want to see but no one has any power over others.
It would be too complicated for normal people to set up and use, and most wouldn’t want to pay for hosting when they can use Facebook for “free”.
most wouldn’t want to pay for hosting when they can use Facebook for “free”.
Unless they get something they won’t find on facebook -> freedom.
I think your idea about everybody basically becoming their own instance is not as bad as it sounds. If social media was peer to peer, using bittorrent technology somehow the hosting issue might somehow be resolved.
That would still leave open the issue of self-governance: how would you genuinely determine the community wishes on any given subject? some may sabotage, others may use bots, other again may try to be disruptive and others may abuse other users or the community.
Most people don’t want freedom. They want rules and mods to enforce them so they don’t see things that they find offensive.
If everything is self-hosted, why would community wishes matter? Just block the people that disagree with you and do what you want. If you’re getting abused, block the abusers. If people are disruptive, ignore them. That’s pretty much how the internet used to work back when we were using forums and personal sites instead of modern social media.
But isn’t modding essentially already Community-driven self-government? Nobody’s getting paid for being a mod right?(?) You can be a mod. Modding isn’t a “reward”, it’s a chore. Sure, some might exploit their position. But self-government here means that the community is then in charge of either taking the power back or creating a different community page. You are not bound to the mods. They don’t have power over you that you don’t give to them
A proper mod isn’t a ruler, but rather a janitor - someone who keeps the place clean so others can enjoy it. Without that, it is only a matter of time until someone decides to shit all over the place for funsies and then you can either decide to clean up - at which point you become a mod - or continue hosting the shitshow, and that is never fun. I don’t know about a single “anarchist” social media site that lasted longer than a week at best, so I doubt it is possible.
Imagine you actually hosted a completely anarchist site and then you start to recieve death threats, doxxing, literally illegal content etc. … what are you going to do then? Serious question.
this is exactly what this post is asking, of course the issue is broader and entails other issues like how to actually represent the community will without distortions and so forth…
Idk myself otherwise I would be working on the implementation already. I think maybe if the communty can vote out users that might be a first starting point, but then it would devolve into mob rule and that is not freedom but just might makes right.
The simple answer is; it won’t work. It works in theory if - and only IF - all people involved will automatically behave on their own and treat all others with respect. An open-to-all social media website without any moderation at all will attract assholes sooner or later, and it will turn into a shitshow eventually. The question is not IF it will happen, but WHEN.
What you are asking for is like planting a garden full of flowers, deciding to never ever weed out the plants you don’t like, and then wondering why you end up with an overgrown, tangled mess instead of a flower field. It won’t magically regulate itself just because you don’t want a gardener.
Maybe not no moderation but rather no mods. Moderation could be somehow community driven. If you get a certain number of downvotes you are out. But that would have other issues like mob rule.
A bit offtopic here, but how can I auto hide cookie prompts in uBlock? What I do is that I manually hide them with cosmetic filter, then I never have to worry about accepting them or not (kinda like I still don’t care about cookies extension)
4chan is what i would call mob rule or the rule of the most brutal/vile/evil I was looking for something that is rule of the community, basically an enlightened form of self-organization. There was a day when a republic was considered utopian and anything that didn’t have a king was assumed to immediately descent into everybody vs everybody. I feel the same holds true for Anarchsim. However let’s discuss anarchism itself over at one of the anarchy subLemmings. This post is not itself about politics it is about how to implement community self governance technically i.e. a technial post/question. thanks for understanding.
To have an enlightened community you need enlightened members. Social media struggles to even have people read and heed simple posting rules.
Ignoring the former and only considering the latter, as others have mentioned, mods serve a janitorial function. If you anticipate a stable user population, you could implement terms for mods, so no one has the role for more than, say, a month. Like students in Japan who have to clean their own classrooms, having all members take a turn might help. You could have more than 1 mod at a time with a staggered start so that (a) they get experienced support and (b) accountability/prevention to prevent someone from taking over. Finally a 3rd role, someone who's only ability is to boot a mod if needed
asklemmy
Oldest
This magazine is from a federated server and may be incomplete. Browse more on the original instance.