Honestly - How much will you sacrifice for a better world?

Confronted with the likelihood that we cannot achieve climate goals, confront socioeconomic inequality, and ultimately build a better world without significant personal sacrifice: How much are you personally capable and willing to lose? I mean this in the most earnest way possible. Acknowledging the likely possibility of working for an unethical organization while simultaneously supporting family who rely on you financially. Do you believe the amount we can and will bear aligns with the amount we must bear?

Blamemeta,

The first major issue is “How do I know it will work? How do I know the sacrifice won’t be in vain?”

Even if I just up commit suicide, cutting my carbon emissions to zero, private planes will still fly, we’ll still ship plastic trinkets across the pacific, still destroy habitat, etc.

Its defeatist, but unless we get the rich on board, shit sucks.

gravitas_deficiency,

Well, I’ve heard people say that rich people are pretty delicious, so that could be an alternate plan…

PrinceWith999Enemies,

I think there’s a fundamental problem with the question that goes to the heart of the climate crisis and which makes a significant contribution to why I think we will not solve it.

There’s two versions of this question. The first is the one you asked - how much are individuals and families willing to give up in order to make the climate problem go away (whatever that means at this point). The second is “If you knew with 100% accuracy that by you going vegan (or ditching your car or installing solar or composting…), that the climate crisis would definitely be solved, would you do it?

Let’s pretend that I don’t want to go vegan. I eat Big Macs every night. Porterhouse steaks every weekend. I drive an F-350 to the ice cream store down the block. All of that. Let’s say I love those things. If I personally give them up, it will make no difference if we don’t reorganize the entire global economy. You might convince me to vote for politicians who would pass laws to make that happen, but you’d have a harder time selling me on sacrificing something I see as a core benefit for zero gain. It’s the difference between “How much would you give to get a homeless person off the streets and a new start” and “How much would you give a homeless person if you knew they were just going to set the cash on fire” if you see where I’m going with that.

We are humans. We are cooperators. That’s how we got where we are. Unfortunately there’s also other dynamics in play as well. I honestly have no idea how far back we’d need to rewind the tape in order to have a chance at a better outcome. I do think any progress we can make is good. This just feels like a boulder rolling towards your house kind of thing where all you can do is watch.

theluddite, (edited )
@theluddite@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s true that we’ll have to make significant sacrifices, but we also have so much to gain, and I’d argue that the things that we have to gain are more important than the things we have to lose. Right now, we financially support our families at the cost of not spending time with them. We pursue education only by mortgaging our future in student loan debt. We need Netflix only because we require a disconnect from a world that’s destroying itself and forcing us to participate, and it’s not even that fun. We cling to the convenience of plastic and cars at the expense of livable cities and the Earth itself. Even this fucking phone that I’m typing on makes me sad and mad so often. I fucking hate this thing.

What are the memories you cherish? For me, it’s big feasts at family reunion, or mountain summits in the winter, or finishing a huge renovation project, or days with my grandma before she passed. We don’t have to give up any of those things. In fact, we should demand more of those, and less time actively destroying our bodies and our planet in order to enrich shareholders. There will always be work, but there’s currently so much of it, a lot of which is bullshit, and the wealth we create is hoarded by greedy fucks who aren’t just stealing your labor, but your time with your grandma or on mountaintops.

We need to change our society such that we can decide what matters together. It’s the only way through this crisis. That’s why I’m a member of several socialist organizations. It’s why I left my job and founded a coop. There will be big changes, but we should share in the costs and the benefits together, from each according to their ability, and to each according to their needs.

themeatbridge,

I would sacrifice my left arm if I thought it would prevent a climate catastrophe. But it won’t. Literally nothing I can give will improve any of the problems you listed.

What should I be willing to sacrifice? Hamburgers? My personal car? Money? My kid’s college fund? Give me an outcome, and I’ll tell you if it’s worth it.

sik0fewl,

Ya, I was going to "offer" much more than my left arm. But it wouldn't do anything. The changes need to be much more systemic(?) than that.

I wouldn't give up cheeseburgers, though. But if I only had them once a year, I'd probably survive.

YungOnions,

If you already knew the outcome, it wouldn’t be much of a sacrifice would it. Sometimes we need to do something because it’s the right thing to do, not because it guarantees success.

Nelots, (edited )
@Nelots@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, yes, it would be? If I can solve world hunger by sacrificing my left arm to the elder gods or some shit, I’m still losing my left arm. It’s still a sacrifice.

YungOnions,

You mention ‘solve world hunger’, implying you know that’s the outcome already. That’s an easier choice then, isn’t it. The point I’m making is that doing something because it’s the right thing to do regardless of whether you know it’s going to work is what makes it a bigger sacrifice. The person I was replying to was also implying they would only consider sacrificing something if they knew the outcome first. If we all did that we’d never achieve anything.

JimmyMcGill,

It would because it would still be a choice. One would have to make it or choose not to. Yes it makes the sacrifice smaller but it’s a valid point. I also share that concern.

It wouldn’t need to be guaranteed but right now many scarifices are basically insignificant

YungOnions, (edited )

Insignificant in the wider picture, maybe. But as you imply we have little to no control over that. All we can influence is our own actions, and hope that will be enough. The problem with the defeatist attitude that so often surrounds any discourse regarding, for example, climate change is that by declaring success impossible before you even try, all you do is guarantee failure.

All one need do is chose what changes one wishes to make and then make them to the best of one’s abilities. That’s it. If you can look yourself in the eye and say ‘I did all I could. I did my best’ then you have succeeded. Will it achieve everything we want it to? Maybe not, but it’ll achieve 100% more than not trying. Ultimately we all have a responsibility to do what we can. So I argue we should all try and do just that and be content that we did our best, because I will not except defeat. How about you?

JimmyMcGill,

I’d argue that effort is better spent fighting for broader change. Ideally you’d do both but one is more significant than the other imo

I have no interest in being a modern day martyr. Both of us could end our lives right now and it would be the most eco friendly action possible, but it would wouldn’t even begin to move the needle. Insignificant is not even close to describing it. So I won’t severely impact my lifestyle just so that I can feel good about it. I will and have make compromises and reductions to help with this, up to a certain point and I have and will continue to push for broader changes that will affect groups of people even if I’m included in those groups because there the proposition is different.

Imagine you live with a couple of roommates and they completely trash the place every single night. We’re talking like shitting in the middle of the living room, trash everywhere etc etc I won’t contribute to that mess at that scale but I won’t lose sleep if I left the my dishes undone overnight.

YungOnions, (edited )

Then it sounds like you’ve made your choices, and you should be satisfied with them. That’s a good thing. Those compromises and reductions have moved the needle. A little, maybe, but it’s still doing something. Good for you. 👍.

gravitas_deficiency,

Calm. Kindness. Kinship. Love. I’ve given up all chance at inner peace. I’ve made my mind a sunless space. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there’s only one conclusion, I’m damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they’ve set me on a path from which there is no escape. I yearned to be a savior against injustice without contemplating the cost and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. What is my sacrifice? I’m condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burn my decency for someone else’s future. I burn my life to make a sunrise that I know I’ll never see. And the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude. So what do I sacrifice? Everything!

Every day I look at the shit happening around us and I find myself getting closer and closer to Luthen Rael’s state of mind.

And here’s the relevant clip, for those who haven’t seen it.

GardenVarietyAnxiety,

I know my time here is fucked, but I’ll do whatever I can to build momentum for future generations.

As a high school graduate with no higher education and social issues, my options are limited… but I do what I can, try to educate myself on current issues, and spread as much positivity as I can muster.

seaQueue, (edited )
@seaQueue@lemmy.world avatar

I’ll sacrifice enough of my time to help build the guillotines we’ll need to deal with the root cause of these problems.

In case it’s not apparent already none of these problems are things that can be solved by personal sacrifices of average individual citizens. We need sweeping government and economic reforms if we’re going to do anything except kick the can down the road for another generation or three while the wealthy continue to loot the planet for their own benefit. If anyone needs to make sacrifices right now it’s the 0.01% sitting on top of enough money and influence to solve all of these problems.

NeoNachtwaechter,

I’ll sacrifice enough of my time to help build the guillotines we’ll need to deal with the root cause of these problems.

Billions of guillotines??

I do not want to know your dreams at night…

Bizarroland,
@Bizarroland@kbin.social avatar

We can do it as an arts and crafts project for our YouTube channels

MamboGator,
@MamboGator@lemmy.world avatar

The only people who need to sacrifice anything and could solve all of our climate and economic problems by doing so are the billionaires hoarding their wealth and making things worse for everyone else so that they can become even more unfathomably rich every fiscal quarter.

There is nothing that the average person can give up that will do anything to improve things, besides our time, security, safety and potentially our freedom to go out and protest. We use disposable plastic products with wasteful packaging because that’s what companies offer us. And even if you can afford to buy products that are more sustainable, you’re still not putting a dent in the problem and are just funneling even more money to the rich so you can feel better about yourself.

We could have all of our modern conveniences and more while also protecting the planet and treating everyone fairly if it weren’t for the absolute evil of billionaires.

Thorny_Insight,

Not that much if I’m being completely honest. I’ve got bills to pay so I’m going to keep driving my truck to work, consuming stuff and buying meat. I’m more than happy to take part in the collective effort however so when the government sets new laws and regulations to fight climate change I just go with it even if it inconveniences me. Up to a point obviously. I just don’t think that my actions as an individual makes any real difference. I’m not going to live more sub-optimal life than what I’m already living only so that I can feel good about being on the moral highground despite knowing it made no difference. I applaud everyone who does but that’s just not me.

maegul,

THE QUESTION in so many ways IMO. But also, for me at least, it misses the point.

For me, so much is about the social. Like, I would have a hard time sacrificing a lot to save humanity from the climate crisis if I knew humanity wouldn’t know that they were saved (they don’t have to know it was me) but just figured the climate problem simply disappeared without learning to manage their problems.

Otherwise, personally, the basic sacrifice that is a no-brainer is to lead a simple, unassuming and arguably (from a materialistic standpoint) boring life. Regarding the climate crisis I’d say I’ve done that most of my life, which I don’t say with pride honestly as it’s about the only thing I’ve done.

Beyond that, if there’s some social buy-in from many to the relevant values etc, I think I’d certainly be willing to risk or end my life for the greater good.

Witchfire,
@Witchfire@lemmy.world avatar

I would not miss red meat if it became unavailable tomorrow

Garbanzo,

Killing a billionaire would reduce carbon emissions more than anything else I could personally do, so let’s start there and see how it goes. We can talk about me giving things up when those efforts won’t be undone by some asshole flying to Chamonix for the weekend or whatever those fucks are doing.

Valmond, (edited )

Yeah the old lie that we are all in it together and should try our best was, yeah, a lie, and some just took all our efforts.

There shouldn’t be billionaires, it’s a morally wrong concept. Money is not meant for hoarding.

We could just confiscate everything over 100 millions and they’d probably wouldn’t even notice. An upper limit of 10 millions seems fair, until no one starves on the planet, have access to health care, education.

And no heritages. Get your money as everybody else.

Corkyskog,

An upper limit of 10 millions seems fair, until no one starves on the planet, have access to health care, education.

I actually really like this idea. They all seem to have some sort of God complex, so let’s put them to the test. You provide clean drinking water to everyone, you unlock another 50 Mil to your cap. Feed the world, you unlock more to your cap. You get the idea.

gravitas_deficiency,

I’d additionally like to propose a change to corporate tax code. Any full-time employees at your company that are on food stamps or other financial hardship support programs have 2x the cost that the government pays for those benefits added directly to the company’s overall tax bill as a final adjustment. The adjustments will not be deferrable or offset by any other portion of tax code. If your company cannot pay those adjustments, your company now belongs to the government.

I am very fucking sick of companies socializing their losses to the rest of the country and keeping all the profit for themselves.

Valmond,

Also no wage gap bigger than ten times (including bonuses, shares etc).

NeoNachtwaechter, (edited )

build a better world

Doesn’t work because that goal doesn’t say much.

People are willing to spend or sacrifice for specific goals with good chances of actually reaching them. Otherwise they would turn away, unimpressed.

Also, the measure of how good the chances must be, and how specific the goal needs to be, is very diverse between the cultures and societies.

So, less is more: limit your scope to 1 country and culture, restrain your goals to specific and realistic ones, and you can achieve a lot with many followers.

DarkMessiah,

I would actually sacrifice everything I have, up to and including my life.

It wouldn’t do a damn thing, but if it would, you wouldn’t even have to ask.

Akasazh,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

I don’t have kids. Both a personal sacrifice and a way to massively minimize my carbon footprint.

And I don’t even get to claim that I want a better climate for my offspring.

I do get to shamelessly do everything I want to do in my lifetime, though. Can recommend.

june,

I’m not one of those ‘I hate children’ child free people, but I really love not having any kids of my own. There’s plenty of kids out there that need parental figures who’s need I can meet. My partner’s daughter is one of them, and I love the hell out of that kid.

But at the end of the day, I’ve still done better for the world by not bringing one of my own into it, for a multitude of reasons including climate change.

Akasazh,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

No, I’m not a hardcore no child person. Just didn’t happen to find someone to have them with, and when I found someone, turns out we can’t.

I do think more people should try out the dinky lifestyle, for a variety of reasons, but I’m not proselytizing.

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • •
  • asklemmy@lemmy.world
  • localhost
  • All magazines
    •
    Loading…
    Loading the web debug toolbar…
    Attempt #