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MNByChoice, in The cost of maintaining Xorg

Sadly, message does not list a dollar amount. Replies are great though. Lots of pointing out the listed items are small compared to corporation size.

lemmyvore,

Also I see “Red Hat” thrown around a lot. There’s no Red Hat anymore, it’s IBM, and IBM’s target user is a RHEL customer.

I’m willing to bet most people commenting on Mastodon (and here for that matter) have very little in common with a RHEL customer. IBM, like Valve with the Deck, have very specific use cases in mind and can afford to support a Wayland-based desktop for those particular circumstances.

But does IBM care about the desktop needs of the average Linux user? I doubt it.

MNByChoice,

Great point. IBM has a long history of squeezing every penny from their customers. At one corner job, IBM had to come onsite a few times a year to perform system updates. We were not allowed by IBM to upgrade the OS ourselves.

interceder270,

Yeah, I never take people seriously when they say something is ‘too expensive’ but willfully obscure what that price actually is.

I’m less of a useful idiot because of it.

lemann, in The cost of maintaining Xorg

The sense of entitlement in some of the replies on that post are absolutely awful

As for me personally, I want to love Wayland. It has great performance on ALL my devices, (except one with a nvidia GPU) and is super smooth compared to X11!

However… the secure aspect of Wayland makes it very difficult, if not impossible to easily get a remote desktop going. Wayvnc doesn’t support the most popular desktop environments depending on how Wayland was compiled, and the built-in desktop sharing on distros that have switched over to Wayland often require very specific Linux-only VNC and RDP clients, otherwise you run into odd errors.

I really hope the desktop sharing situation improves because it’s a pretty big showstopper for me. On X11 you just install & run x11vnc from a remote SSH session and you have immediate session access with VNC from Linux, Android, and Windows. If you want lockscreen access too then you run as root and provide the greeter’s Xauth credentials. But Wayland’s not so simple sadly AFAICT…

Waypipe is something I’ve found out about recently though, so need to check that out and see how well it works at the moment. If anyone has any helpful info or pointers please share, I’m completely new to Wayland and would appreciate it!

Pantherina,

For me its especially services like RustDesk or even RealVNC that are essential, because I have no DynDNS

uis,
@uis@lemmy.world avatar

Also wayland is just slower for gaming

skullgiver, (edited )
@skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl avatar

deleted_by_author

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  • uis,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    Looked at it. It seems GNOME are doing dirty hacks, since AFAIK they don’t have tearing control in their compositor.

    And game fps is not directly translated to perceived performance on wayland. For example in Xonotic 90-95 fps on wayland feel laggy, but if enable glFinish, I’ll get 80 fps in same area, but game will feel much better. But it causes game to run in 20-30 fps in places and cause more lag there, where it would run 30-60. For context runnung game in X11 without glFinish gets me 110 fps in same area, which feel like 110 fps. Running game in kmsdrm gets me 120 fps in same area.

    dewritoninja,

    I use freerdp for Linux and rd connect on Android, Windows to connect to my Ubuntu laptop as a second monitor on gnome Wayland and it works great

    BrownianMotion,
    @BrownianMotion@lemmy.world avatar

    I know this is not useful for most use cases, but if you login to the desktop on the ‘remote Wayland’, locally first then RD will work as expected. So if you can change the behaviour of the remote desktop to stay unlocked (IE its in a secure place where others cannot just access the device), then and RD will work with Wayland.

    I use NoMachine (since I manage all sorts of devices, and its nice that there is a client and server for everything including phones/arm) and it works for me because many of the machines are actually VM’s and I can keep the desktops unlocked and logged in. NoMachines solution for Wayland - is to disable it and use X11 !!

    But I wish many of the RD developers would just embrace Wayland and add/rewrite code to support it (If it is in their scope, I don’t know) It might not be, since I am aware of Waypipe and Pipewire, but I’d assume that RD devs would still need to include support for that.

    downhomechunk, in Ipod problems
    @downhomechunk@midwest.social avatar

    Just curious why the ipod? Is it for retro chic? Are you trying to load songs you purchased or “backups”? I play my backups with vlc on my phone to save data.

    Ipods have a proprietary handshake that must happen between the device and the computer trying to manage it. The open source community was able to reverse engineer it on the older models but not the later ones.

    Zealousideal_Fox900,

    Nostlagia. I also just wanna see it run again.

    downhomechunk,
    @downhomechunk@midwest.social avatar

    I totally get that! Everyone here is suggesting complicated virtualization options. Maybe they know something I don’t. But if it were me, I’d try setting up plain old WINE and seeing if I can install an old version of iTunes from here:

    www.oldversion.com/windows/itunes/

    You could pick an xp era iTunes and set wine compatibility to xp, or 7 or whatever was contemporary for the ipod generation you have.

    Unrelated: my phone insists on autocorrecting ipod to iPad. I feel old now.

    dr_jekell,
    @dr_jekell@lemmy.world avatar

    Using a VM is being suggested as it is:

    • Relatively easy to set up.
    • Gives the user a full Windows OS which simplifies software installation.
    • Allows for snapshot backups to be taken of the install meaning if something breaks you just roll back to a previous snapshot.
    • The VM can have the internet disabled meaning no auto updates to the software or OS.
    • Easy to remove the VM and virtualization software at a later date if required.
    • The VM (or another) can be used to run other Windows only software.
    downhomechunk,
    @downhomechunk@midwest.social avatar

    I’m not dissing the VM approach. I’m just saying I’d try WINE first. I already have it i stalled for steam.

    TheGrandNagus, in The Unity Desktop Environment an Underrated Masterpiece

    Unity was fine, I used it. But the fact I’ve never tried to replicate that workflow since moving on from Ubuntu is pretty telling.

    Using stock Gnome on Fedora Workstation now and couldn’t be happier.

    Pantherina, in OpenSUSE Leap 15.5 -> Tumbleweed conversion

    Slowroll seems just as mature as TW? Just update, upgrade, change repos, upgrade?

    Rockslide0482,

    It’s only been around for less than a year as far as I’m aware and from what I gather still seems to be finding its sea legs as far as balancing between what rolls in immediately(ish) and what comes in through the big “tumbles”

    Pantherina,

    I guess with the BTRFS snapshots there is no reason to not use TW. But Slowroll really sounds like a Distro that makes sense

    Pantherina, in The Unity Desktop Environment an Underrated Masterpiece

    , , , , , , , . . !

    Those are some punctiation characters you for sure missed. Please use multiple scentences, that was a hell of a read

    Mohamad20ZX,

    Ok sorry for being inconsistent

    Pantherina,

    Its fine, but really improves readability :D imagine yourself breathing. Every scentence has a beginning, climax (point of most tension) and an end.

    Shortening it to many shorter scentences helps

    mnmalst, in A Gamer's Descent into Linux Lunacy (Switching to Linux) [video 48:15]

    uploaded Dec 24, 2022

    GustavoM,
    @GustavoM@lemmy.world avatar

    …and also, good ol’ baby duck syndrome.

    Even then, gaming was 100% doable/acceptable at that time. Even not (just) a year back, but a COUPLE years back.

    SmoochyPit,

    That was just a few weeks ago, right? Right???

    corrupts_absolutely, in A Gamer's Descent into Linux Lunacy (Switching to Linux) [video 48:15]

    little clickbait and tolerable personality crazy this exists

    TimeSquirrel, (edited ) in The Unity Desktop Environment an Underrated Masterpiece
    @TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

    I'm old school. I've been using GUI based OSes since Windows 3.11 and 95, and prefer KDE due to its similarity. Unity feels like what they did with Windows 8, where they tried to turn a desktop OS into a tablet OS. And it just feels "klunky", for lack of a better term. Too much bling for not enough benefit. KDE strikes a nice balance between eye-candy and responsiveness.

    ook_the_librarian, in The Unity Desktop Environment an Underrated Masterpiece
    @ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world avatar

    Why is the unity is underrated when its what i use

    Everyone is going on about the lack of punctuation; I can’t get over this snippet. It’s like the ideal of an ego wrote this.

    If you’d like to know my experience with Unity DE, I thought it felt like a toy and when it was packaged with Ubuntu, it was the first time I left vanilla Ubuntu since the days of Gutsy Gibbon.

    I’m glad to hear Unity getting love. The customizability is by far linux’s key strength. So it can give people what they want. For example, it gives me the ability to completely ignore Unity.

    toomanyjoints69,

    Unity would be awesome if you used the laptopto run only a few applications each on the bar.

    So i actually think unity would be perfect for the normie or even the writer.

    Mohamad20ZX,

    Will it your point after all.but remember not anything is going to be forgotten forever.

    lambalicious, in The cost of maintaining Xorg

    I don’t get the issue with “maintaining Xorg”. Like, I get that it has a “cost”, I just don’t understand why that cost would be an issue since it’s basically fixed, marginal cost (and has been since like 2015): the software is already mature, so it’s unlikely to see relevant changes, or even minor changes (if that’s what we want to mean with “dead”). That means, it can be affixed to a specific toolkit and environment to build (if this isn’t being done already - which any mature project like RedHat should be!) basically guaranteeing it’ll build forever. You can just set a virtual button or a yearly crontab to do it. Fixed, marginal cost.

    Contrasted to that, what Wayland is doing is kinda a representation of the worst ways of capitalism: centralize the profits, socialize the costs and the externalities (redesign, recode, rebuild), and blame society (the Linux communities) for it, all for a variable cost that is unbounded in time and space because you never know what’s gonna cost a small project like a text editor to reimplement the entire desktop stack “just” for Wayland.

    ProtonBadger,

    I don’t get the issue with “maintaining Xorg”.

    I think he explains it pretty well, he even gives some examples and mentions there are many others. For a company to support such a large component for its commercial customers has a lot of work and verification we wouldn't consider as end users. His comment also explains why you can't just maintain a status quo with it and make an automatic build and forget...

    IAm_A_Complete_Idiot,

    As a third party, my understanding is that both the implementation and the protocol are really hard, if not next to impossible to iterate on. Modern hardware doesn’t work like how it did when X did, and X assumes a lot of things that made sense in the 90s that don’t now. Despite that, we cram a square peg into the round hole and it mostly works - and as the peg becomes a worse shape we just cram it harder. At this point no one wants to keep working on X.

    And I know your point is that it works and we don’t need too, but we do need too. New hardware needs to support X - at least the asahi guys found bugs in the X implementation that only exists on their hardware and no one who wants to fix them. Wayland and X are vastly different, because X doesn’t make sense in the modern day. It breaks things, and a lot of old assumptions aren’t true. That sucks, especially for app devs that rely on those assumptions. But keeping around X isn’t the solution - iterating on Wayland is. Adding protocols to different parts of the stack with proper permission models, moving different pieces of X to different parts of the stack, etc. are a long term viable strategy. Even if it is painful.

    lambalicious,

    But keeping around X isn’t the solution - iterating on Wayland is. Adding protocols to different parts of the stack with proper permission models, moving different pieces of X to different parts of the stack, etc. are a long term viable strategy. Even if it is painful.

    The problem is, that’s always used as an excuse to force people to be gratis beta testers. I’ve been around for the wrecks that were (and still are) Pulseaudio and Systemd. Wayland is even worse: it doesn’t even fully start a session in my machine. If as devs you want to “iterate”, sure, go ahead; but leave it in the dev branch; as a user, don’t try to sell me Wayland again until it’s actually over.

    satan,

    The problem is, that’s always used as an excuse to force people to be gratis beta testers

    If as devs you want to “iterate”, sure, go ahead; but leave it in the dev branch; as a user, don’t try to sell me Wayland again until it’s actually over.

    it’s opensource software, don’t like it? go ahead, don’t use it. They don’t owe anyone shit

    interceder270,

    The issue with maintaining X is solely RH not wanting to pay developers to maintain it.

    Wayland only exists because RH wanted to remove features of X so they can offload implementation and maintenance of those features to other parties.

    It’s all about money. Don’t fool yourselves into thinking it’s not.

    ABasilPlant, in How exactly "secure" is a container with all capabilities dropped, distroless, with a custom rootfs directory, a static, single binary with chmod set at 100 and file ownership pointed to non-root u...

    Absolutely. Check out side channel attacks. The problem here isn’t about software exploits, but hardware issues. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-channel_attack

    Some things to get you started: Meltdown and Spectre: en.wikipedia.org/…/Meltdown_(security_vulnerabili…, en.wikipedia.org/…/Spectre_(security_vulnerabilit…

    Rowhammer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Row_hammer

    These are exploited by malicious processes doing something to the hardware which may result in information about your process(es) being leaked. Now, if this is on your computer, then the chances of encountering a malicious process that exploits this hardware bug would be low.

    However, when you move this scenario to the cloud, things become more possible. Your vm/container is being scheduled on CPUs that may/may not be shared by other containers. All it would take is for a malicious guest VM to be scheduled on the same core/CPU as you and try exploiting the same hardware you’re sharing.

    GustavoM,
    @GustavoM@lemmy.world avatar

    Fair enough. Thank you for your input.

    Hominine, in brand new rice
    @Hominine@lemmy.world avatar

    Very clean and nice wallpaper to boot. thumbs up emoji

    01adrianrdgz,
    @01adrianrdgz@lemmy.world avatar

    thank you very much!! I love this distribution, it’s the most customisable ever n.n

    FQQD, in brand new rice

    I really like the backdrop

    ICastFist, in Why didn't anyone remind me the dual booting exists?
    @ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

    Use Grub2Win (sourceforge.net/projects/grub2win/) whenever Windows manages to break dual booting. It’ll stop fucking up afterwards, as it’ll be installed within one of the windows boot partitions.

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