No specific rust experience with either, but some thoughts on the popularity reasons outside of the language:
I suspect a bit part of this difference in framework popularity may be due to GTK being more attached to gnome and friends, and by extension, Ubuntu (for better or worse, the most used desktop distro for quite a while) Most of the time that’ll be mainline Ubuntu which has always been GTK.
So if a developer or company is going to target something, then it may come down to “what is the ideal platform to build on for Ubuntu as our main target? GTK? Cool, that’s what we will use.” Of course, either framework is just fine, and either framework targets other OSs as well. I don’t have any experience with either, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the choice of GTK more often is akin to Swift + Apple’s toolkits for iphone development being more popular by a large margin than Ionic/Capacitor, React Native, Xamarin, etc, even though the others provide some benefits (and some significant context-dependent downsides, of course)
If i remember correctly, Qt was not fully FOSS for a while, so GTK was much more widely adopted and recommended early on. But that was pre-2005, I think.
I generally don’t really think this is the case, there are still plenty of apps from other languages in QT. in fact, for cross platform apps, QT is immensely more popular then GTK is. Rust itself had disproportionately less apps developed in QT then other stuff, (Python for instance). especially when you consider cross platform. and at least for open source anyways. closed source I cant comment on
I meant alternatives to systemd-homed, systemd-machined and the likes. Since I’m on NixOS, I’m restricted to most of the systemd stuff. I’m not even sure if I need all of them.
Now I’m being dragged into the anti-systemd ideology. I have a bunch of CLI utility that I have never ever touched since the three years I’ve been on Linux. I just came across homectl, machinectl and timedatectl, and I’m convinced that the part about “bloat” does make a lot of sense now.
I don’t really care either way. I like things to be more minimal, but I’m not really anti-systemd or anything like that. I’ve just been using openrc for a few years now, and haven’t used systemd enough to learn about the homed stuff I guess
I’ve been using PipeWire this year on my Void Linux laptop & desktop. It’s been mostly OK but has a few problems. For years I have been using plain ALSA (with no custom configuration) because pulseaudio causes me regular issues across multiple machines (mostly silently failing).
Pros:
I don’t have to use Chromium for my mic to work on online video conf (WTF Firefox)
“EasyEffects” lets me quickly fix crappy youtube audio (bad gain normalisation, way too much sibilance) with a minimum of effort.
Cons:
Sometimes breaks all audio until I manually restart it (hey, just like pulseaudio. This problem never happens when using ALSA straight)
First time setup is complicated, involving environment variables, dbus user session buses and multiple daemons (running just pipewire isn’t enough). Why can’t it handle this all itself? Surely it should notice if these things are missing and just fix it itself? Compare this to straight ALSA where you (1) do nothing and then (2) everything works (except Firefox mic support)
I can’t have multiple audio outputs all unmuted at the same time. Eg my headphone output and my rear speaker output. If I override this (using alsamixer) then it gets forgotten next boot anyway, it seems to be out of scope of PipeWire’s understanding.
Sometimes breaks all audio until I manually restart it (hey, just like pulseaudio. This problem never happens when using ALSA straight)
Well, how much lennart is in this thing? Not only can that predict how well it’s going to work, but also how soon it’ll be fixed, how responsive the ‘team’ will be to bug reports, how compatible it’ll be with other system components AND whether ‘compatibility’ will be achieved before the entire OS has been systematically imported into (and badly replicated by) the project.
If you check SystemD, its a HUGE step up, which is why everyone is using it now (whereas, the old scripts had race conditions, were a pain to write and other issues). Anyone who has written both can tell you how much better things are now…
The fact this issue is happening on both Pipewire and Pulseaudio also suggests it’s more likely a bug in the drivers… It might not be obvious on ALSA directly, but that doesn’t mean an issue doesn’t exist there…
And honestly, the situation before PulseAudio was awful. Audio not working was a common issue, and low latency audio was the least of anyone’s problems. Whereas, these days, because of Pulseaudio, even gaming is a thing now (back then, I even saw issues on tuxracer, and Unreal tournament back in the days).
In regards to setup, most distributions will handle that anyway I’m guessing. So not sure why the configuration process should matter unless you’re in Arch or Slackware? As long as the distribution handles it, it shouldn’t matter. It’d really a non-issue honestly.
I do a lot of middleware development and we’re regularly blamed by users for bugs/problems upstream too (which is why we’ve now added a huge amount of enduser diagnostics/metrics in our products which has made it more obvious the issues aren’t related to us). In practice, very few people have issues with Pulseaudio (I haven’t seen issues since launch). Sometimes as well, keep in mind it can be the sound interface (especially if its USB)
If you check SystemD, its a HUGE step up, which is why everyone is using it now
I think that’s a “winners write history” situation. There were other options at the time that might have been better choices. Everyone uses it now because of Redhat and Debian being upstream to most users, desktop and corporate. I was not surprised by Redhat adopting it (it’s their own product) but Debian was quite the shock.
Yes systemd is definitely a step up from traditional initscripts (oh god). In terms of simplicity, reliability and ease of configuration however it’s a step below other options (like runit). I don’t have distro management experience but, given the problems I’ve encountered with different init systems over the years, I suspect there would be less of a maintenance burden with the other options.
I’m very curious about the downvotes to this one. May I ask people’s thoughts? Perhaps I’m too vague? I can put a bigger story about my experiences with various init systems in production & research if people are interested.
The fact this issue is happening on both Pipewire and Pulseaudio also suggests it’s more likely a bug in the drivers… It might not be obvious on ALSA directly, but that doesn’t mean an issue doesn’t exist there…
I probably made the overlap unclear, sorry:
Pipewire issues: My 2023 desktop and 2016 laptop, very different hardware.
Pulseaudio issues: All of my pre-2023 desktops and several family laptops
I do a lot of middleware development and we’re regularly blamed by users for bugs/problems upstream too (which is why we’ve now added a huge amount of enduser diagnostics/metrics in our products which has made it more obvious the issues aren’t related to us).
Eep, that’s annoying. You also probably don’t have direct interaction with the users most of the time (they’re not your customer) which makes this worse, people in a vacuum follow each other’s stories.
In practice, very few people have issues with Pulseaudio (I haven’t seen issues since launch). Sometimes as well, keep in mind it can be the sound interface (especially if its USB)
There might be a bias here because these problems are not persistent, ie a reboot fixes them.
In regards to setup, most distributions will handle that anyway I’m guessing. So not sure why the configuration process should matter unless you’re in Arch or Slackware? As long as the distribution handles it, it shouldn’t matter. It’d really a non-issue honestly.
That’s potentially more things different distros can do differently and more issues your middleware will start getting blamed for.
Yes it’s not a problem for user-friendly distros, but why does the user friendliness problem exist anywhere anyway? It’s better to fix problems upstream, not downstream.
I worked with Unix before Windows was a thing. I've worked on windows, saw what a shitshot it was (and still is), and work with Linux instead. I do have Windows PCs at the lab for some renitent software, too, but it is always a step backwards when it comes to data procession.
I’ve been using Linux for something like 27 years, I wouldn’t say evangelical or particularly obsessed.
I started using it because some of the guys showing up to my late 90’s LAN parties were dual booting Slackware it and it had cool looking boot up messages compared to DOS or Windows at the time. The whole idea of dual booting operating systems was pretty damn wild to me at the time too.
After a while it became obvious to me that Slackware '96 was way more reliable than DOS or Windows 95 at the time, a web browser like Netscape could take out the whole system pretty easily on Windows, but when Netscape crashed on Linux, you opened up a shell and killed off whatever was left of it and started a new one.
I had machines that stayed up for years in the late 90’s and that was pretty well impossible on Windows.
I’m just now getting into it. Set up a laptop with Ubuntu running Plex media server. Been taking some real baby steps watching basic Linux tutorials.
It did take me about 4 hours to figure out how to mount an ext HDD so that Plex would have proper permissions to find the media. It was very rewarding to finally frickin resolve that! I’m still gonna keep pecking away and learn as I go while watching I keep watching tutorials.
@Lifecoach5000@Altomes just a heads up, if you add something and plex doesn’t see it, it’s permissions. It’s always permissions. I’ve been using Linux and plex for years and I always forget permissions. Or I used to before I wrote a script to fix it before I realize I forgot it.
Windows 10. I was originally okay with another windows version rather than just updates, and then my dad put it on his as an “upgrade” from 7. It was utter shit. Took an old but serviceable pc and turned it into fucking molasses. And that’s not even the worst of the bullshit, as it turned out.
So, I grabbed some CDs and burned on some distros and tried shit out. I liked what I found, with the exception of audio.
I’m definitely not obsessed. I don’t have brand loyalty, even when the brand is free as in beer. And I’m not evangelical in that I don’t inject linux into every fucking computer related conversation. But I do speak up for the fact that we aren’t stuck with only windows and no other options, and that I prefer Linux overall.
Now, I am a bit zealous about how much I fucking hate Microsoft and windows, but that’s a separate issue imo. But, again, I don’t inject that into every conversation.
I don't really have any one stand out reason. I first introduced myself to Linux in the late 1990s, buying a Red Hat CD and phone book sized manual that at the time cost a lot, especially as I was poor student. I think one of my tutors (I as doing computer studies) said that he ran Linux and I got nerdy and curious. It sadly didn't last long as too much of my other study was based around Windows.
Over time, Iecame to despise corporate monopolies, spying, manipulation, billion dollar advertising budgets, and turning people into products (not just Microsoft, but Apple, Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc.) more and more, so I decided it was time (early 2010s) to give Linux a go again. I'd read people saying it was more usable for gaming than it used to be. Still required giving up some games since Steam Proton wasn't a thing yet but for me, I was making an concious choice to only support gaming that was Linux native (or games that I already owned that worked on WINE).
I distro hopped bit before settling on Mint. Used that for about 2 years and then got a new PC. Wanted to challenge myself more and went with Arch. I have enjoyed the customisation, freedom, privacy and ethically conscious choice ever since.
I wouldn't say I'm obsessed but I certainly try and free other people from the shackles of non-floss software as much as I can.
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