Mozilla says Apple’s new browser rules are “as painful as possible” for Firefox

Mozilla is unhappy because the use of browser engines other than WebKit will be restricted to the EU, forcing them to develop two different apps.

For an independent browser like Firefox, managing two browsers is not easy, so it can be forgiven that this could be seen as almost harassment.

Also, the fact that the use of browser engines other than WebKit is limited to iOS means that the use of WebKit is still forced on iPadOS, which also increases the effort for Mozilla.

Source: iphonewired.com/news/746093/

pineapplelover,

I’m fucking enraged man. I hope we can regulate these assholes.

GravitySpoiled,

There is a very easy solution. Don’t buy apple.

NateNate60,

That’s not a solution. It’s a way for you to avoid the problem. It does nothing to help the millions of people who are already deeply invested in the Apple ecosystem.

Daxtron2,

sunk cost fallacy

LWD,

Not sure if it’s a fallacy if it’s about addressing people who have spent a ton on an ecosystem and can’t just devote more money to buy the alternative and time to figure out the parts that aren’t compatible

SupraMario,

What parts aren’t compatible? And you can load Linux and Windows on all Mac’s. You can also sell your iPhone and buy an android phone with money left over… getting out of the apple closed ecosystem is cheaper than sticking with it.

LWD,

You can’t refund anything that’s not physical, for one…

SupraMario,

Where did I say refund anything?

LWD,

You asked what parts aren’t compatible, and one answer is everything bought for Apple computers, iPhones, iPads, etc. Apps, media, anything that isn’t subscription based.

SupraMario,

And windows/Android/Linux all have alternatives. This is not an excuse.

LWD,

Okay, so you would advise someone who bought, say, Photoshop on a Mac OS to consider that cost sunk, and then to purchase what on Linux?

SupraMario,

Gimp for Linux. It’s free even.

On top of that the Photoshop license is not os specific. You can use it for Windows or osx.

NateNate60,

For most people, time is not regarded to be free (i.e. not a cost). As a devoted Linux user, the adage that “Linux is only free if you don’t value your time” is absolutely true.

SupraMario,

Uhh ok install windows then?

NateNate60,

Learning Windows is still a time cost. You’re also losing your library of Mac software and quite a few interoperability features between your other Apple products.

SupraMario,

??? So you’re plan is to just say fuck it, and continue to be fucked over by apple? The fuck logic is that? Almost all software has a replacement in windows/Linux. I work in all 3 ecosystems, there is very little that lacks an alternative in each os. Sticking to osx/iOS is just a cop out.

NateNate60,

No. My argument is that if Apple isn’t going to open up their ecosystem to genuine competition and genuine interoperability then they need to have their hand forced through regulation.

Telling people to just stop buying Apple products is a lazy, knee-jerk self-righteous response that ignores the realities of platform lock-in.

deranger,

Can’t do that on ARM. Windows on ARM sucks and there isn’t a good app ecosystem.

SupraMario,

There isn’t a good app ecosystem for arm on osx either? What’s your point?

NateNate60,

I’m not the parent commenter, but Apple Silicon has much wider app support than ARM on Windows. There’s also Rosetta Stone, which works alright, I suppose. Not spectacularly and usually not anywhere near native performance but it’s at least okay.

NateNate60,

No, it’s not a sunk-cost fallacy.

If you already have a bunch of Apple stuff, it makes more sense to continue using Apple stuff, because switching would cost money and effort. You’d also lose access to the software library that you paid for.

Having a bunch of Apple stuff also makes buying more Apple stuff in the future a better value proposition because you gain access to features that you wouldn’t otherwise have. Platform lock-in is not a sunk-cost fallacy. You’re just uninformed and being smug about it.

The sunk cost fallacy only applies when stopping is free or the cost is low enough (in money or effort) that it makes more sense to quit than continue.

GravitySpoiled,

then sell apple

NateNate60,

Not a solution.

This not only has a time and effort cost attached to it but selling your used hardware to buy new hardware is always a bad value proposition.

selokichtli,

Perfect for the genius bar.

TWeaK,

That is the solution though, always has been. Vote with your wallet.

Jumuta,

voting with your wallet doesn’t work when most people would buy anyway (whether it’s because they’re ignorant, trapped to do so, etc)

The minority of people that actually care and know about privacy and software freedom is just a tiny statistic in Apple’s perspective, so voting with your wallet doesn’t work.

TWeaK,

“My actions mean nothing because everyone else won’t do it” is exactly what everyone else is thinking.

You’re making excuses. Be the change you know should happen. Don’t be a sheep.

Don’t buy puffa jackets. Seriously. They’re fucking everywhere now. Don’t do it, you don’t need it, they’re cheap and overpriced.

WhatAmLemmy,

Yeah, let’s ignore the entire history of labor, environmental, safety, and product regulations, and believe everything is the way it is because of our dogmatic free market feefees.

TWeaK,

Lol for a moment there I thought I was going off the rails with my puffa jacket rant above, but your segway into “free market feefees” is far more unhinged.

Jumuta,

free market works when the market is actually free.

As soon as entry costs are introduced into the market, the free market falls apart.

Think of the costs of building factories, rnd, lawyers, etc.

LWD,

Apple: opens its wallet

TWeaK,

Lol that’s basically the Brave attitude, drown out the controversy with a marketing campaign and pull in more new unsuspecting users than the ones you lose.

takeda,

Then deinvest?

What a fucking argument. “Yes, it is a problem, but it is too hard for me to do anything about it, someone else should fix it”

pineapplelover,

I don’t. Many people do. To protect their very clear monopolistic goals, we need to protect consumers from this stuff.

refurbishedrefurbisher, (edited )

People should fully own the computers they buy, regardless of which company they buy from.

This means root access and a replacable primary bootloader, let alone just being able to install apps not on a curated market (what Apple calls sideloading). macOS and Windows both manage to allow root access, and so do certain Android devices (and obviously other OSs as well). Replacable primary bootloaders are more rare, though, especially in ARM devices due to efuse-based secure boot in the CPU that is impossible to turn off. There’s only one phone I can think of that allows for replacing the primary bootloader (Shift 6mq).

We shouldn’t allow for artificial restrictions placed by corporations on devices they sell, because as we have seen time and time again, companies copy each others’ restrictions, especially Apple. Same goes with game consoles, IoT devices, Smart TVs, etc. And before you mention the potential for piracy, DRM is an artificial restriction placed by corporations, and should also be removed from devices.

Anything less means that you don’t own the device that you paid for.

Apple is clearly attempting to comply with the EU DMA in bad faith so that they can maintain as much control over their users and app developers as possible.

umbrella,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

boycotts barely work, and doubly so when the company has a legion of faithful fanbois and its among the biggest corporations in the planet.

grue,

Why do you hate consumer protection law?

bionicjoey,

And that’s coming from someone who has “applelover” in their username. They fucked up big time by pissing off even their most loyal fans.

(/j)

pineapplelover,

Honestly, I don’t know how many normies this will upset. Pretty much only techies follow this and the people being annoyed by it might just blame the app developer and not Apple. Time will tell

Aradia,
@Aradia@lemmy.ml avatar

Why not stopping developing apps for Apple systems? Fuck them.

Kidplayer_666,

The issue is that larger companies which could have an impact (Netflix, google, Meta) already have special deals in place that bypass these rules

Aradia,
@Aradia@lemmy.ml avatar

…spotify.com/…/apples-proposed-changes-reject-the…

And it comes down to a fundamental question: Will the European Commission follow through with its intent to right-size Apple’s abuse of power? Or will the DMA be nice in theory, but in practice, have no substantive meaning for most developers?

From Spotify.

TWeaK,

Because then Apple fanbois will complain and tarnish Mozilla’s/Firefox’s reputation

Aradia,
@Aradia@lemmy.ml avatar

They already do that, they can say whatever, they will be isolated with their shitty Apple products and if they want decent browsers then they will need to use decent systems. Apple can’t abuse of their power and force us to follow their abusive rules, they can’t even have a decent UI desktop. They are so bad programmers.

jaybone,

Such a weird take.

Also this has nothing to do with programmers.

Aradia,
@Aradia@lemmy.ml avatar

Just saying their OS sucks, bad designs, buggy UIs, etc. They don’t even decent software, and I already saw many stupid bugs.

TWeaK,

Android was a victim of the NSO’s Pegasus because of WhatsApp, and possibly that only worked because Facebook negotiated with phone manufacturers to bundle dodgy pre-installed system apps outside the Google Play Store.

Apple’s iOS was a victim of the NSO’s Pegasus because of iMessages.

For me, that’s enough to completely steer clear of iOS altogether. I mean, the lack of customisation and control over my device was already enough, but that kind of vindicated it for me.

Aradia,
@Aradia@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah, my Android doesn’t have WhatsApp, I neither have Google apps. It’s a degoogled OS. I feel free and things works, even my default web browser on my Android has NoScript (JavaScript blocker), to make it safer. With Apple… you are sold.

TWeaK,

Ditto! No Google needed, and Facebook apps are prohibited on my phone. I can even get banking apps working with a bit of Magisk, working in Zygisk domain with a deny list hiding it from the apps. Apparently proper SafetyNet checks aren’t that common anymore.

For browsers, I’d recommend Mull and Mulch. Mull is a privacy fork of Firefox, Mulch is a hardened version of Android System Webview (the backend browser that lots of apps use). Both come pre-installed with DivestOS.

Darorad,

Mozilla doesn’t have the sort of leverage to make an impact by abandoning apple devices. Firefox has an incredibly low market share and this could push people to other browsers. People tend to use the same browser for stuff like bookmark and password syncing, so abandoning ios could have larger consequences.

Aradia,
@Aradia@lemmy.ml avatar

Yeah I understand, but if Apple is fucking up with our development, not only for Firefox, for any developer that makes apps for phones… why keep following their abusive rules? When I say “stopping developing apps for Apple” I mean, any developer that dislikes the abusive rules of Apple and fees. If we abandon the system, the iOS users will need to move to Android or other systems that are more friendly for developers.

Darorad,

Oh yeah generally I’d agree, with firefox I just think it’d be better to do what will push the fewest people away as long as it’s possible to maintain development.

Aradia,
@Aradia@lemmy.ml avatar

Sadly yeah, I was just like “screaming with anger” about what Apple does, and seems everyone just agrees and keep playing their game.

KinglyWeevil,

My wife has an iPad and one of the things I hate the most is that you can’t install adblock extensions into Firefox on it like you can on Android. Which is a thing that has made using the browser on the phone wayyyy more enjoyable.

deranger,

I use DNS level blocking for blocking ads on iOS devices.

PopShark,

Which service do you use (if any) for it? Personally I use controld but I hear NextDNS is the most popular

0xtero,

So hear me out. What if we took $6.9M out of the CEO bonus and dropped the Mozilla AI project?
Maybe that would be enough to hire a maintainer or two for Firefox iOS port?
Maybe that could work?
I don’t know, just an idea. Crazy.

GravitySpoiled,

I don’t know what you coul have against mozilla ai?

LWD,

Mozilla: ignores years of customer complaints and requests

Mozilla: creates new product nobody asked for

Fans: “What’s wrong with Product?”

moonpiedumplings,

Mozilla: ignores years of customer complaints and requests

Are these customers donating, or purchasing mozilla products or services so that mozilla doesn’t have to rely on google’s donations?

Mozilla: creates new product nobody asked for

github.com/Mozilla-Ocho

Nearly 10k and 400 stars on those respective repos.

A way to run a large language model on any operating system, in any OS, in a simple, local, and privacy respecting manner?

For linux we have docker, but Windows users were starving for a good way to do this, and even on linux, removing the step of configuring docker (or other container runtimes) to work with nvidia, is nice.

And it’s still FOSS stuff they aren’t being paid for, currently. But there are plenty of ways to monetize this.

Here’s an easy one: tie in the the vpn service they have to allow you to access the web ui of the computer running the llamafile remotely. Configure something like end to end encryption or or nat traversal (so not even mozilla can sniff the traffic), and you end up with a private LLM you can access remotely.

With this, maybe they can afford some actual development on firefox, without having to rely on google money.

LWD,

Are these customers donating, or purchasing mozilla products or services so that mozilla doesn’t have to rely on google’s donations?

I’m confused what you’re trying to say here.

Are you saying that Google has more of a right to dictate what Mozilla does because Google gives Mozilla the most money?

Are you saying Google told Mozilla to work on things other than Firefox with the money they were given?

Why bring up Google at all?

moonpiedumplings,

Because much of mozilla’s funding is from a deal with google, that’s why.

US$300 million annually. Approximately 90% of Mozilla’s royalties revenue for 2014 was derived from this contract

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation

A lot of money, but not enough to actually to actually do a lot. They keep cutting features their “customers” like. Why?

Because development is expensive.

Google props mozilla up to pretend they don’t have a monopoly on the internet. Just enough money to barely keep up, not enough to truly stay competitive.

Mozilla wants to not rely on google money, so they are trying to expand their products. AI is overhyped, but still useful, and something worth investing in.

LWD,

I know that, but why did you bring it up in order to contrast it with Mozilla’s consumer base? Do you mean to say that Google is the actual paying customer?

It seems like such a bizarre thing to bring up at all.

selokichtli,

Yeah, that will fix Apple being total utter assholes. Giving them what they want always fixes everyone being assholes.

jackpot,
@jackpot@lemmy.ml avatar

oh yeah put the onus on mozilla, nice one

LWD,

Yes, but also require Apple to expand its EU software to people not in the EU

“Both is good” El Dorado meme

M500,

I like how just about everyone I who’s looked at this is basically like, “fuck apple”.

There are a few fanboys, but they are way less common than usual.

I’m hoping Apple picks up on this and reverses course.

MrMcGasion,

They won’t care, they have the consumerist crowd locked down. The crowd that buys dozens of Stanley Tumblers so they have one that matches any outfit. There might be more of us who care than there used to be, but the average iPhone buyer doesn’t care and Apple knows it.

LeroyJenkins,

how do I de-apple my iPhone?

amir_s89,
@amir_s89@lemmy.ml avatar

Don’t purchase & start using it from the first place. Save yourself plenty of resources. Focus on something else productive & valuable.

trippingonthewire,

You could try to jailbreak but honestly you’re better off not having an iPhone

Zagorath,
@Zagorath@aussie.zone avatar

Honestly, Mozilla doesn’t even have the resources to maintain a proper WebKit-based version of Firefox on iPadOS, when a large amount of the work is handled for them by Apple. (See, for example, the fact that it still does not support multiple windows, a feature that has been available since 2019.) It would seem a mistake for them to try taking on a much larger load of work when they can’t handle what they’ve already taken on.

TrickDacy,
@TrickDacy@lemmy.world avatar

How’s that Cook-dick taste?

Blisterexe,

Missed a chance to say tim-cock

Zerush,
@Zerush@lemmy.ml avatar

Apple always had been painfull for any third party devs. Also Vivaldi worked several years to create a browser which works in this iPhone thing, and now, after it’s release, Apple admits Chromium. https://file.coffee/u/BPIaDNFX7YJkKtXuMdWNJ.gif

Churbleyimyam,

The fun life of an Apple customer.

Jumuta,

genuinely fuck Apple for stealing khtml and driving it into the ground

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