jarfil

@jarfil@beehaw.org

Programmer and sysadmin (DevOps?), wannabe polymath in tech, science and the mind. Neurodivergent, disabled, burned out, and close to throwing in the towel, but still liking ponies 🩄 and sometimes willing to discuss stuff.

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jarfil,

Hm
 can you give an example?

Off the top of my head, all I can come up with associated with “freedom fighters”, is using both guerrilla tactics and terrorism to fight against some superior enemy. The next closest thing, are non-terrorist “freedom movements” like Gandhi’s (which comes with a separate can of worms).

jarfil,

There is a funny tidbit on the Wikipedia page:

Although Ben-Gurion had told the audience that he was reading from the scroll of independence, he was actually reading from handwritten notes because only the bottom part of the scroll had been finished by artist and calligrapher Otte Wallish by the time of the declaration (he did not complete the entire document until June)


gov.il/
/the-declaration-of-independence/

Because there was no time to spare, the Declaration was read from a mimeographed sheet, and the 37 signatories – members of the Provisional Council of State – signed their names to a blank parchment sheet. The official copy of the Declaration was later inscribed by an artist.

As for borders, by following the Declaration of Independence itself:

THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.

The UN resolution called for an economic union of “Israel and Palestine”, which would imply that “Eretz-Israel” was supposed to mean the whole land of the “Mandatory Palestine”.

Prior to that:

ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE’S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

The British mandate was over the whole “Mandatory Palestine”
 but the declaration talks about the State of Israel being “in Eretz-Israel”, without specifying any explicit borders.

The “spirit” of the text can be interpreted as intended to follow the borders of the UN resolution
 maybe.

Since the resolution clearly was not accepted by the Arab states, it would require some further analysis whether that means Israel is supposed to prioritize establishing an economic union of the whole land, or strictly follow the resolution.

jarfil,

Lower Paleolithic is as far as some will go when dating first clashes over that same patch of land, or about 200,000 years ago.

jarfil,

Tons of neo-lib shit takes in this comment section.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Could you elaborate about which economic takes you’d want to criticize in this comment section, or did you mean to use a different term?

jarfil,

I’m perfectly capable of thinking that they’re both terrorists and freedom fighters.

It’s not just that they “can” be both, it’s more that they “have to” be both.

“Freedom fighter” is a term reserved for the underdog, the one who can’t use sheer military power to terrorize a whole region (like a couple US Carrier Strike Groups with nukes) or some surrounding countries (like a US funded Israeli military with some nukes of their own). Established democracies and recognized states, can use their “military” to terrorize a whole population by just threatening to bomb the living shit out of the civilians, while “freedom fighters” can only terrorize through surprise attacks and extreme brutality
 aka, by being “terrorists”.

Bottom line: all “freedom fighters” need to be “terrorists”, otherwise they’d be called “a military”.

somebody who goes to “freedom fighter” as their first noun for them, that’s kind of a red flag.

That’s a bit harsh, what if they understand the two are synonyms? đŸ€·

jarfil,

glass the “holy land.” Nuke it all so no one can live there for 200+ years.

Maybe by then [
]

Not long enough.

Conflict in the area has been going on for anywhere between 4000 and 200,000 years (lower paleolithic). Since the invention of writing, people of different origins have been able to transmit their religious claims to the region for thousands of years.

200 years would barely put a dent on it.

jarfil,

After the Nazi shit and the reluctance of the West to accept refugees

Zionism starts in the 1800s, well before the Nazi shit. The 1940’s One Million Plan actually got amended after the Holocaust by stirring up a civil war so more Jews from Arab countries would flee in fear of prosecution in order to meet the Zionist numbers, precisely because “too many” Western countries were accepting (or got forced to accept) Holocaust refugees, who were nowhere as many as previously expected (by the Zionists).

Nazi Germany could really happen again

Not exactly. Genocides have been going on all the time, just the countries and ethnicities have been changing. So you could say it’s been happening all along
 while the chance of the same exact combination repeating, is quite low.

jarfil,

What vote?

https://cdn.britannica.com/55/3355-050-C17CAACC/UN-partition-plan-Palestine-1947.jpg

Timeline:

  • 1947 - The resolution was voted on by the UN
  • Arab countries didn’t accept it
  • Civil war between Zionists and non-Zionists
  • 1948 - A day before Britain’s retreat, Israel claims all the land
  • A day later, Arab countries attack Israel in order to "push the Jews into the sea"
  • Israel wins most of the land, except Gaza and Cisjordania

Jews were given the land

Well
 kind of, but not really, not exactly that land, and the result wasn’t truly agreed upon by anyone.

the 6 day war

That’s in 1967. Israel wasn’t “given” any land there, it used a provocation by Egypt in order to claim all of it (and have Egypt give thanks for not claiming all of Sinai too
 for now).

jarfil,

A problem with Lemmy (and a bigger one with Reddit) is that conversations can include context and nuance, while mods don’t always can or want to take them into account, so you better make each comment stand on its own, or you can get the boot “out of the blue”.

jarfil,

I used to resent that Jews had a special word just for them: “antisemitism”

“Antisemitism” is technically a BS word, just like the “Semitism” word it comes from. It was invented in the 1800s by some proto-Nazis, adopted in the 1900s by Nazis after the concept was already debunked, and continued in the 2000s by neo-Nazis. Nothing to be either jealous or proud of.

Jews who are said to secretly run the world

Somewhat ironically, not so secretly, and not a conspiracy.

Since 70CE, all Jews have been required to both read and understand the Torah, while other religions relied on priests “interpreting” the sacred texts for uneducated peasants, leading to Jewish literacy levels of 70% or more in countries with otherwise a 3% or less during the Middle Ages. At the same time, both Christians and Muslims were forbidden from “usury”, or charging interest on loans (Muslim banking still is), but guess who wasn’t: Jews. And who’d guess it, the Diaspora meant there was one or a dozen Jews pretty much in every city. As commerce grew all over the world, merchants used to go to literate Jews, like the ones sitting on the bench (“banca”) in Florence, asking for loans and generally to do what nobody else was either capable or allowed to do, like letting them carry bank notes instead of coffers full of gold, redeemable at other “branches”. Big surprise, some centuries later, you can trace most of the financial world back to Jews, both the concepts and ownership.

Also not a coincidence there have been so many famous Jewish artists, scientists or inventors. Anyone who’s got a problem with that, can thank their own religious ancestry for the cultural suicide.

dog-whistle for Nazis (to mean Jews)


but of course it’s easier to blame the guys who got it right, while spreading further conspiranoic BS to dig an even deeper hole for one’s own culture. đŸ€Š

jarfil, (edited )

Wait until you hear about Macron’s travel to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan to sign economic agreements
 just like the EU did with Ukraine right before 2014
 only this time, next week there’s going to be a new sanctions package against Russia.

Did I mention Kazakhstan borders with both Russia and China, Russia already has a recent history of “helping” a pro-Russia government stay in power by sending in troops to shoot against civilians, and China would love to build a railway through Kazakhstan and Ukraine right to the EU
 with just a tiny bit of Russia lying in the way north of Georgia?

Israel-Palestine megathread for the remainder of the weekend

the front page is now like half articles on this currently, so it’s probably time for a megathread because none of us want to keep track of 12 threads on this subject and all the resulting comments. only major subsequent developments (for example, boots on the ground; pronunciations by governments; that sort of stuff) will get...

jarfil, (edited )

Source: Spanish TV.

There has been some uproar this week because there are over 10,000 Spanish citizens in Israel and Gaza, but the government only decided to fleet 2 military planes to evacuate 500 of them. Turns out, they were only evacuating the “tourists and people on business trips”
 meaning the rest are not; they’re people who decided to immigrate there. Following that, different reporters got hold of people “left behind”, both in Israel and Gaza.

One of those people, was a lady who immigrated to Gaza 40 years ago, “to settle right next to the Israeli border”, and now kept repeating how the Spanish consulate is ignoring her request for evacuating her 19-people family, with many children among them.

It’s estimated that 50% of the population of Gaza are underage, meaning they’re people born in the last 18 years, into a conflict that’s been going for 70 years, from way before this lady decided to immigrate there 40 years ago and contribute to the population growth.

Source: Internet (various)

Some statistics about this:

Both sides are engaged in a long term (100+ years) strategy of trying to out-number each other, with sympathizers of each side migrating there to increase the numbers for the conflict. Since immigration into Gaza and Palestine is more restricted than into Israel, the former have been trying to churn out as many “new residents” (aka kids) as quickly as possible
 who are now being used by Hamas as a humanitarian crisis bargaining chip.

Notice how even with a steady emigration of about half the population of Palestine every year, the total population keeps growing, along with a steady immigration rate of around 200K/year:

jarfil,

This seems to be missing the meaning of the word “terrorist”, as in anyone espousing the ideology of instilling fear as a weapon.

jarfil, (edited )

All those maps seem to show the same things, in slightly different ways. Basically, “statistics massaging” done with maps.

The “Fact” one seems to have the most information, as in:

  • Since 1917, the British had control ver the “Mandate of Palestine”, which was neither Israel nor Palestine.
  • Both Jews and Arabs started buying land and settling there, hoping to become the majority population in case a referendum was held when the British retired.
  • Since 1941, the Jewish ideated a plan on how to win a possible referendum by getting One Million of their own in there, presenting it in 1944 as a solution for Holocause refugees, but then realizing that it wouldn’t be enough, that they’d still be missing people and they’d need “Arab refugees”, as in Jews fleeing persecution from Arab countries.
  • In 1947, after WWII, the UN proposed a plan to split the land, which the Arab countries rejected.
  • In 1948 the British planned to GTFO
 and just the day before, Israel was formed and declared that the whole land would be theirs.
  • The moment the British left, all the Arab countries attacked Israel which they saw as illegitimate
 and with the idea of genociding everyone.
  • However, Israel won that war, and let any Arabs choose whether to stay or GTFO. About 150,000 decided to accept Israeli citizenship, about 700,000 got pushed into Jordan/Palestine.
  • As predicted, a lot of Jews fled Arab countries fearing persecution, which propped up the numbers of Israeli citizens, and further increased the hatred in Arab countries.
  • In 1967, Israel got attacked again, and won again, letting it lay claim to the area previously known as Jordan/Palestine.
  • But people in that area, were mostly Arabs, which didn’t sit well with Israel, who started a colonization process, mainly to cut off the “Palestine enclave” from Jordan
 and to intersperse some Jewish population inside, lest the area decoded to hold a referendum and the Arab side win.
  • People in the Gaza area were Arab/Palestinian, and it has open access to the sea, so instead Israel tried to contain those people by walling them off, and telling Egypt to take them
 which Egypt doesn’t really want to (we’re in the middle of a worldwide migration crysis, nobody wants millions of immigrants).
  • In 1995, after a lot dirty tactics from bother sides, a Palestinian governance was established
 but by then the ex-Jordan area was already decimated by Israeli colonists.

Misinformation:

  • The “disappearing Palestine” map, starts by claiming all the territory was Palestine, which is false, it was a “Mandatory Palestine” under British control. If you compare it with the first “Fact” map, you’ll notice it claims all the white area as Arab owned, which is false.
  • The UN plan seems to be correct on all the maps, little to manipulate there since it failed anyway.
  • The 1948/1949 maps match what Israel claimed after preemptively declaring itself as a state, getting attacked, and winning.
  • The 1967 maps also show how Israel got control over the whole area, and progressively has been eating away at any possible Arab/Palestinian claim.
  • The 1995 and “NOW” maps show why Israel conceded a Palestinian governance: mainly over territories where people identifying as Palestinians are no longer a majority.

Personally, I’d say the “Fact” one along the AlJazeera one, paint the most complete picture.

For sources, check Wikipedia for:

jarfil,

If it simply meant using fear as a weapon, then every state that has prisons and police would be terrorist.

Well
 you said it 🙈

The Oxford definition adds “unlawful” as an extra requirement, but I’d readily call Iran’s morality police “terrorist”, despite being lawful and state sponsored.

jarfil,

Russia and Belarus also use fear to control their citizens. Setting a place on fire to make the state fear you, definitely can be called terrorism. Asking for sanctions against a state
 hm, kind of? Technically, many of the sanctions against Russia are also intended to instill fear, including amongst civilians so they stop supporting their state. Making the EU fear whether it will have enough fuel for the winter, is another case.

There’s a lot of terrorising going around these days.

jarfil,

The word is useless for describing violent acts in a meaningful way

Agree.

It is not a meaningful word

Disagree.

“Terrorism” has a clear meaning, and observing when people use it, or avoid using it, is even more meaningful, as proven by those examples.

PS: I’ve been called a “no freeloading terrorist”, a “TV remote terrorist”, and a “cleaning terrorist”. It may not tell you much about what I did, but it should convey enough meaning about what they were thinking.

jarfil,

That’s nonsense. Feel free to investigate the demographics of the World, Africa, Niger, Ukraine, China, or the US, to get a feel for “infant mortality” or “when most people die”.

www.populationpyramid.net

jarfil, (edited )

Notice how the sharpest decline in Palestine’s demographic pyramid appears between 14 and 34 years old, or about when people realize what’s going on and decide to GTFO, and how that fits the constantly increasing emigration, while the increasing population —despite higher child mortality, lower lifespans, and extreme emigration— fits the profile of adapting fertility to and ideological parity with Israel’s immigration rates.

Since you mentioned India:

Notice the low child mortality with an actual increase towards the age of 22. We could discuss the large younger male surplus, though.

jarfil,

Only real way to solve the problem is to get rid of Hamas.

Does that include evacuating all Israelis from Gaza, then mass murdering everyone left who could ever dream of joining Hamas?

Because it seems to be what Israel is aiming at, and there are some words for it, like “genocide”.

jarfil,

Ideological groups usually put increasing their following, before the wellbeing of those who don’t follow them.

jarfil,

On the other hand, why should a “toothless measure” become part of the constitution?

(PS: just checked US Constitution amendments, love how the 27th only took 200 years to get approved 😄)

jarfil,

The authors mention the necessity of “creating ideological change” in the Palestinian population through a process of what it likens to “de-Nazification,” requiring Israel to “dictate the school curricula and enforce its use for an entire generation.”

Ah yes, the “de-Nazification” card
 right after keeping a whole generation imprisoned under Hamas rule. How convenient. 😒

jarfil,

What’s the term for a narcissistic country?

Country. Otherwise the land gets claimed by a different narcissistic country.

jarfil,

Obligatory: “Train stations are where trains stop, bus stations are where busses stop, I have a work station
 and police stations are really frightening.”

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