What’s up with the ux design of nix? I get it’s made for advanced users but still. I’m reading through this guide and man it’s convoluted.
The different ways of installing packages. Either through editing the configuration.nix or running a command. The weird inconsistency of nix commands. nix-env -iA to install and nix-env --uninstall to uninstall. Then updating uses nix-channel --update but upgrade uses nixos-rebuild switch --upgrade. All this to use the package manager. Also haven’t even mentioned flakes or home manager.
It’s a cool OS, but the UX really needs work imo.
[Edit] I do wanna add something else too because I feel like my point isn’t getting across.
It’s okay to have a complicated ui. Especially if your target audience are tech-savvy. But even tech-savvy people have to start as new users. A tech-savvy new user isn’t going to know what the best practices are. Being able to anticipate the steps for installing a package is important for ux. If the commands for installing packages isn’t cohesive/intuitive, then the user has to spend more time looking for guides and learning how to use the software.
People also mentioned a new command in the works. This is great! However, these current commands are being recommended through blogs and nix. New users won’t know about this new command.
After trying out Nix as a package manager I realized I have a pretty different world view than the makers of Nix. I agree with the end goal but how they are trying achieve it is just alien to me. The nix command line is just downright user hostile.
I am personally hoping that someone else takes a stab at the Nix concept but have accepted Nix isn’t for me.
Yeah because when you make an error it causes a snowball affect and it shows you too little information but when you look at the trace its a wall of errors.
i had a syntax error in my dotfiles that took me two hours to solve.
it was a missing semicolon that was wayyy above where the error said it was. it didn’t even say missing semicolon, instead saying unexpected ‘}’ on line …
Imho I wouldn’t bother with nix-env or nix profile. It just creates a secondary list of packages that needs to be maintained and it’s cumbersome to do so. There’s nix-shell or nix shell if you need a package temporarily and there’s your configuration.nix or flake for everything else.
Side note: nix profile at least has consistent commands: install/remove/upgrade
They have resolved this exact problem. There is an “experimental” cli tool that fixes a lot of your complaints about nix-env, nix-channel, etc. Itcs wrapped together with “flakes”. This newer feature is a little different, and working with or without flakes segments the community AND the types of articles about nix, like this one.
As far as I know though, nixos related thing still have a bizarre set of commands, and even with flakes “nixos-rebuild switch --upgrade” is still how you switch configs.
And as far as installation goes, using nix-env -iA really is a bad practice. Thats installing something ad hoc like you would in any other package manager. That defeats the point of nixos, where your configuration file explicitly defines all the packages you need installed, and nothing else. Nix will remove any packages you didnt specify.
Oh that’s good that they are addressing those issues with a new command. Hopefully it gets into stable soon.
Might be that nix-env -iA is bad practice! I’m strictly talking about ux design here and nix-env -iA is being recommend by blogs and nix themselves. (Nixpkgs tells you how to install using nix-env -iA)
A new user isn’t going to know what bad practice is.
It actually recommends using nix-env -i, which is even worse because with that command it searches the whole repository instead of just getting the correct attribute on nixpkgs. It takes half a minute to run the command, it’s insane.
I do think it’s important to emphasize the difference between installing software in user environments and system wide, which is why the tool is named nix-env. System packages must be installed via the nixos configuration file and a rebuild.
To me the biggest missing piece for new users is a tool to help manage your system configuration and reduce the frustration of having to constantly look up nix syntax or nixpkgs quirks. Maybe thinking of it as a nixos/nix IDE? Also a polished distribution built on nixos would be a good starting point (and easy to do, I didn’t realize I could just copy someone else’s configuration until well after I had my system working well enough)
The other thing that got me starting out is the need to garbage collect old packages. It’s not strictly necessary if you have a large enough disk, but it took me several iterations of filling my root partition before I figured out how to properly clean up old generations.
Is my go-to command. For a while I was looking at generations manually, but now I just wait a while (days, a few reboots, or until I need more space) to run this after changing things in case the new stuff is broken.
I think running this as my normal user cleans out old env generations… But I’m not 100% sure.
There is controversy in the nix world because nix flakes were (some say) merged without proper vetting first. OG nix diehards don’t want to taint nix documentation with ‘experimental’ flakes. But probably the majority of nix users are all in on flakes. So you have documentation from the OG camp that doesn’t include flakes, and you have innumerable unofficial guides for the flakes way. This on top of the quirkiness of nix the language and the multiple ways to do things. Unfortunate.
IMO nix-env was a mistake. It feels like an imperative package manager which may be comfortable to new users who are used to apt or similar. But really what you should be doing on nix is maintaining *.nix files which document/specify your system setup, and nixos-rebuild to update your system to that configuration. Similarly, nix channels are an imperative holdover, which can be done away with if you use flakes, which results in your current nixpkgs version being documented in a system level flake.lock file.
I think both nix-env and flakes are designed with making package management easier. Nix-env tries to make it intuitive and familiar for new users. Flakes improve package management by simplifying the configuration.
Personally I would love to see syntax highlighting, language server, code completion. Maybe all in a dedicated application which is configured to give the easiest experience for new users. If nix is intended to be managed through config files, then the experience of writing a config should be as easy as possible.
The intent of nix-env was to make it easier, but the effect was to push some of your system state into a shadowy ‘env’ realm that is not managed by your *nix files. Same with channels - its state that isn’t in your configuration.nix.
To me the whole point is to have all your state in some files you can check in to version control, and use to reproduce your system.
Agree it would be cool to have a way to edit nix files that would give you all the args to functions, code completion etc. You do get some of that with the nix repl. Would be nice to even have a GUI for selecting packages for those that don’t “do” text editing.
I’m using nixd for a nix language server, but haven’t seen a lot of benefit so far to be honest. I think part of the reason is nixpkgs isn’t pulled in until runtime, so most things are undefined as far as the lsp is concerned. Haven’t put a lot of time into it, there may be ways to make it more useful.
I don’t even understand the benefit of it. It’s not like memeing is a job where you have to protect your intellectual property. Why even do it? Do they think so highly of themselves that they need to “protect” memes that they create? They’re randos on the Internet adding captions to images, not V/A professionals…
It also goes against the longstanding spirit of Internet memes, that they are things to by definition be shared, not intellectual property to be bound.
You should take a few minutes to watch this video if you want to see how serious memers can get about ‘stealing memes’ kids with partially developed brains with too much internet access and free time obsess over nutty things
Considering that western media is hysterically blaming Palestinians for Israeli atrocities now, I’d say it’s rather Israel’s (alleged) “plight” that’s getting the limelight - not Gaza.
No, it's not the user catching Linux in trying to pretend user friendliness witht the terminal.
It's Linux catching the user in still hating it when he gets the wanted user friendliness, for the sole reason of being conditioned to hate the terminal.
What? The person you’re replying to doesn’t have the best argument in the world so I’m not exactly siding with them, but also a lot of terminals very much do support mouse input. I’m not sure which all ones it is, but I know the gnome terminal does and I’m pretty sure Konsole does as well. Obviously not every program you run in the terminal is going to support it but off the top of my head I remember vim does as well as I’m pretty sure dialog
Don’t forget loadhigh (lh) and his friend DEVICEHIGH and check with mem the memory layout if anything more can be sqeezed into some unused block lying around…
Ahh, itsfoss.com. they had some article on “being a supercharged Joplin user” or some nonsense and suggestion 3 or 4 was “Create a notebook”… Really being a power user when you’re utilizing the most basic functionality the app was created for…
I thought about doing that but updating nixos confuses me. Does nixos-rebuild switch pull new packages? To my understanding there is a file that saves all currently installed versions of packages and switch only adds new things but wouldn’t update packages.
Like, if I want to update Google Chrome. Doing switch wouldn’t change anything if the config hasn’t changed, right?
I believe that’s correct – if nothing has changed from your last generation, then the new generation will be identical. But if something has changed, it will do a bunch of duplicating and remapping symlinks in the Nix store to ensure that everything plays nicely together and that you can rollback to a previous generation if needed.
So if you do a rebuild switch regularly, you will end up with gigs worth of old “copies” of things that aren’t being referenced in your current generation.
That’s what nix-collect-garbage handles – once you know your current generation is working well, you collect the garbage and recover that space, at the expense of not being able to roll back.
That’s why I think building a core system with NixOS and then having user software come from Flatpak is a nice combo for simple workstation that won’t update and bork itself, leaving my grandpa without a laptop until I can come take a look.
Edit: To clarify, nixos-rebuild-switch won’t update your Flatpaks at all – just the Flatpak service
That makes a lot of sense. I can setup their computer with nixos and stuff that needs to be updated regularly (like a web browser) can be flatpak which should be more stable too.
Then flatpak update would get them updated without rebuilding the whole OS.
My grandparents have been rocking Linux Mint for a few years. I have managed Chrome through Flatpak since I discovered that was possible on Mint. I’ve been flirting with the idea of having NixOS instead so I don’t have to remember what I’ve configured in the past. I’m not 100% sure now though :-P
Sort of… we can 3D print walls out of specific concrete blends that run nicely through an extended hose system that runs from the mud pump to the print nozzle. But, concrete has a limited time as mud before it starts to harden, so you can only print for so many hours before you have to stop and flush out the pump and hoses before it turns into rock, and the concrete mix can’t be too chunky (like including gravel) to flow through the system.
Also, if you get all that right, then you can print walls… but not structural frames that would support a multistory building, or plumbing or electrical wiring or insulation or windows or roofs…
We’re a long way from 3D printing a building wholesale.
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