Like JKR not being pro-trans is just her opinion. And as far as I know, she hasn’t gone on a crusade against anyone yet.
using a large public platform to disseminate the same kinds of anti-trans arguments currently being used by bigots to draft legislation putting trans people at risk is not just an opinion. like, it isn’t a crusade, but when there is a crusade going on and you’re saying the same thing the crusaders are saying, its not a good look.
I’m not really up to date on JKR to be honest. It was mostly an example of someone who was asked her opinion, gave it and it pissed people off enough for it to become an issue.
There’s a reason we shouldn’t look to celebrities for answers or anything other than the entertainment they supply.
My.limit is where the utility provided is less than the annoyance I get from the creator. JKR is immensely annoying, far more than I enjoy their work so they will never see a dime out of me. Melon husk is a shit head and not entertaining so they don’t get my money or content and so on. But Google gets some data out of me since they don’t literally shitpost in my general direction about their opinions on people different from them.
If I know who the CEO is there is already a problem at the company level. If I care about who the CEO is, there is a MASSIVE issue for the company as I am many times more likely to make a decision based on who they hired rather than the quality of any product. The same goes for arts.
I generally avoid giving meaningful contributions to chuds when possible. I was considering getting a Kagi subscription before, but upon seeing this that is no longer the case.
Have you boycotted JKR
I was never a Harry Potter fan to begin with, but if I were then I would be, yeah.
or dropped your opinion about Picasso
I don’t expect people who died centuries ago to be woke, so probably not. That someone like Picasso would be racist/sexist/queerphobic is a default assumption for me, so that already lowkey colors my perception of them when analyzing their work.
Is it about the general vibe of a product or piece of media, or are you more discerning? What goes into this decision and why?
It’s about applying pressure to provoke capitulation. I want to make clear to both them and everyone watching that being a dipshit in such a way will cost them resources and reputation. This is less effective when the creator is dead, though, so I’m not particularly concerned about their art.
You raise a really good perspective about the relevance of the artist among our culture. Older cultural influences have some significance but not the same as current artists in society. The relevance of problematic Greeks/Romans/Catholics just don’t have the same weight because we know they come from a different time and their art is a reflection of that time. If anything, it’s a sociological study of people from that time - we can still say the same for people today except for the fact that our consumption of their work can effect their estate.
Compared to current artists of today who are problematic - the likes of Roman Polanski, Chris Brown, Kevin Spacey, Johnathon Majors, Roald Dahl, these artists are much more in line with J.K.R. than someone like Picasso (or {insert problematic writer from 1850-1950}, because their works are more immediately relevant to our current culture. I also think the intent of consumption matters based on how it is then talked about - is someone is consuming the media to get an understanding of the cultural feelings at the time, something that highlights aspects of society, or are they trying to live vicariously through this character and thus perpetuating it.
As someone mentioned as well, second-hand is a way to still consume the media without directly supporting the artist. I don’t think consumption of media is inherently supportive of the ideology nor does it have to monetarily support them, though I do understand that there is a high likelihood of sharing thoughts about something leading to others possibly purchasing and supporting them.
What these conversations always come down to me is how effective is blacklisting an artist? As in, does consumption of problematic works inherently perpetuate those problematic ideas or is it able to be discussed while highlighting them? I myself am conflicted here, as one of my favorite movie has 2 problematic actors in it, but Baby Driver is so damn good and having it on my Plex server doesn’t actively support the problematic people (then, nor does it support the good workers). So it comes down to how willing or how able I am to separate the art from the artist, and how I choose to engage with said media when talking about it with others.
Someone mentioned Joss Whedon who is another great (or, awful rather) example where his actions make it harder to consume his media. But Buffy is still and always will be a classic, and The Avengers is still a big moment. Those also happen to have a lot more people than just him working on them. But the same could be said for Roman Polanski, but I am on the side of the user who said his works should effectively be dismissed. The only case for something to that extent would be for film and social studies in an academic setting where all of the knowledge surrounding it becomes part of the conversation - as an example akin to this I think it’s important to be aware of and study American Cinema. Unfortunately by nature American Comedy has deeply rooted racism ranging from creating stereotypes that still are perpetuated today, to poor treatment of actors. And yet it’s essential that we study these else we lack the historical contexts that led to change. I think the same will be said a few decades from now regarding Polanski, where we aren’t studying his work his actions but rather studying the changes in society as a result of them.
We can study without them, but we will miss important contexts that are important dynamics. Without knowing about how trains influenced filmography the impact of travel films like Thelma and Louise are less impactful than they could be. Without knowing about how awful sex scenes in film used to be, the impact of modern sex scenes led by Intimacy Coordinators can seem frivolous. Without knowing the history of blackslpoitation films contemporary ones (like Black Dynamite) made in its image may not have the same weight. They can be viewed and understood without that contextual knowledge, but the impact from viewing the media with the knowledge is very different. Which of course the whole discussion, is exactly what it’s like to consume media with someone problematic - exactly how able, or worthwhile, is separating the art from the artist? Does their intent even matter all that much if how it is consumed is completely antithetical to their position? If someone hateful has a work that everyone consumes and the socially perpetuated message is from love and kindness, does it matter if the artist is problematic? Or does their work become a slap in the face to themselves, so long as the consumers aren’t supportive of the artist but the positive message behind the work - as mentioned this could be as simple as buying the book second hand or pirating it. I don’t remotely have definitive answers to these, but I do think that the discussions surrounding problematic works can be more important than trying to sweep them under the rug in many cases. That of course also isn’t something that’s guaranteed. I’m also not trying to say that there is a definitive answer for any of these, moreso that it almost comes to be a case-by-case basis, per person.
I think it comes down to a mix of the intent of consumption, whether it’s perpetuating or highlighting, as well as the consumers worldview affecting their perspective - like how the movie Idiocracy is received across all demographics. You’d think the conservative mindset would write this movie off, but somehow there is a narrative that fits into their worldview that affects how they perceive and interact with the media.
I’m also not condoning any problematic artists. I grew up with Harry Potter but I haven’t interacted with the IP since the final movie (not the new series), and my interactions since have been through my Plex server, so no direct support. I was interested in the game as a concept and there are people that aren’t her who worked on it, but I’m also neither invested enough in the IP nor interested in supporting her - were I ever to try to play it I would pirate it outright, and I think it would mostly be so that I was able to have a full understanding of the game, its mechanics, seeing the specific problems as they’re presented in game. But that’s me consuming the media with this knowledge in mind, almost inherently creating a dialogue between myself, the property, and society. With that in mind, is my playing that game problematic? Some might still think so, others might think not. I think the same could be said for video games that get called “woke”, such as The Last of Us 2 being poorly received upon release - from an outsiders perspective many critiques were almost entirely comprised of misogyny. Any actual shortcomings of the game were eclipsed by things that just were not an issue, but some consumers decided it was. The reality for that game seems simple; people wanted more Joel and they didn’t get that. Our cultural shortcoming of respecting women have heavily affected any media that represents them, calling them things like Mary Sues or just using woke as a blanket term.
(cont) Finally, there are so many people and examples that I also don’t explicitly fault anyone for liking a problematic artists work, within reason. Someone can love the A-Team and have no idea Crazy Murdock is certifiably insane, or Dilbert strips etc. Consumption with ignorance isn’t ideal but it’s okay within reason. I also think that people can be allowed to have an exception. I don’t support deforestation for Palm Oil but I fucking love Nutella and I’m sorry but I won’t give that up as it’s been the one thing that has kept me going at times of despair. I’m allowed to have that and I can feel okay rationalizing it because of how I carry myself for other products, even if my consumption of it isn’t inherently ethical. Whether or not purchasing Nutella negates my convictions (like boycotting Nestle and trying to avoid non-sustainable practices) becomes irrelevant because it comes down to my happiness. I feel the same way for AI art for general consumers - I personally think that it’s people like little Timmy and overworked Jane who are just using Midjourney to make fun photos to make themselves happy. These are people who likely wouldn’t be commissioning art anyway, and their happiness is allowed to exist. For production of other things someone mentioned shoes as another example, which I personally try very hard to find ethical ones but in practice I always end up with PUMA’s because they fit my feet and have lasted longer. It’s something I wish I could change, but I’m stuck between values and blistered feet and buying another pair far more quickly than usual (just for this one example I bought shoes from Thousandfell and I had to get a new pair within 6 months from basic work wear) just to have to break them in again.
I think media from the perspective of ethical consumption is only a skipping stone away from corporate consumption, with the main difference being that the former you have a little more freedom of choice to decide with a much wider range of acceptability - is the author someone you want to support or do they just have an idea worth talking about, but you need to be informed first? Compared to which handbag/pair of shoes I should by because of how other people perceive my social status.
The former may have problematic elements but they can be discussed and support isn’t as outright. It’s more likely to highlight the issue, even if you’re consuming the work of someone problematic. The latter is a byproduct of societies problematic elements, it is hard to not perpetuate the issues unless you are specifically going out of your way to correct them, if you can buy second-hand or whatever else. Anyway, I realize I scoped this out a bit wider than the original question, but only because I think they are closely related, the main difference simply being that it’s not necessarily inherently ethical to consume a problematic artists works, while general consumption is just so difficult to avoid problematic business.
A creator’s worldview influences me a whole lot on whether I’ll use their stuff or not. I don’t think we can afford the luxury of supporting jerks anymore. There’s just too much shit going on. Consuming is voting. That’s the rational part. The affective part is that when I learn that the creator’s a jerk, I just don’t feel like engaging with their stuff anymore. It’s basically a turn off for me.
The kagi controversy is unfortunate. I’ve been considering biting the bullet, but there’s no way I’m paying for a search engine I don’t feel good about. Also I very naively didn’t realize until now kagi was just aggregating Google, Yandex or whatever, stripping the advertisement rot and applying some extra magic. Won’t they get the rug pulled right from under them the second they reach any sort of relevance?
The only thing that’s changed about artists and people in power is that we now know a lot more about their beliefs and personal lives than we used to. One thing that hasn’t changed is that everybody has skeletons in their closet and is the hero in their own story.
As such, and given that I don’t seek out salacious details about people I’ll never meet, so long as their irrelevant-to-the-content/product personal views don’t filter into what they produce, I tend to be unaware of anything else about them.
There are of course exceptions, with Musk being at the top of the list. But as I’m not in an income bracket that would let me avail myself of any of his products, it’s still largely irrelevant.
And the further back you go in someone’s history to find dirt, the more likely they’ve changed. I’d hate to be judged now by some of my early columns in college when I was in my edgy atheist libertarian raver phase, so I’m inclined to give others a pass on adolescent musings.
With more recent stuff, as people let more of their personality into their crafted public personas, it’s not all that difficult to deduce whether their worldview is going to be offensive. But commerce overall is not about whether I’d enjoy grabbing a beer with someone so much as whether their product fulfills a need.
I hate the history thing. People still go after Brendan Eich for donating $1000 to the Yes on Prop 8 campaign in 2008. Prop 8 passed with 52.24% of the vote, over 7-million California voters probably including many that people still like (thanks secret ballot). It was thrown out by courts, nothing to do with people being moral.
That’s not to say he’s a good guy I agree with, he’s said and done other things much more recently that I don’t agree with, like his stance on COVID, but Prop 8 is always the number one thing people mention.
Edit: even later on in this thread. People should boycott anything made in California if that one donation is such a painful thing.
Could nation-states just, for a day, not bomb one another? Houthis hit ships. Ships hit back. Iran hits…seemingly anyone nearby? Pakistan says, “Hold my Lassi” and lobs a few rockets back. Could we maybe, just take a deep breath, and chill?
Anyways, found out I got a hole in my knee meniscus exposing bone. I guess if we keep escalating these little tit-for-tat attacks I won’t have to worry about it for too long.
Anxiety has been through the roof this past week. My weekend hasn’t been too great either on account of a hole in my insulation causing my water to freeze on Friday. Hoping that it comes back tomorrow once temperatures start staying above freezing.
As much as that writing style is rather unique and interesting, it is dreadfully difficult to follow. There’s a verbosity to it that would make me think the person who wrote it sat in front of a thesaurus looking for the exact word to replace what they originally wrote about fifteen times per sentence if I didn’t already know eccentric people like this who exist in real life and pride themselves in their ability to use the absolute ‘best’ word to represent their thoughts at any one moment, ignoring the fact that many people will not be able to follow for lack of ever hearing, let alone understanding what the word means. With that being said, I did very much enjoy the imagery the writer was able to conjure on the subject of enshittification and the general state of affairs of the average tech bro.
Looking at the replies on that open ai thread, and how many of people are just going on rooting for ai companies just taking other people’s work without their consent, is alarming, also probably signals that this community might not be for me.
Thank you for everything, and sadly I think I might leave beehaw altogether.
Going to have a look. Not because I don’t believe you, but because it seems so at odds with the usual vibe here that am wondering whether someone unleashed some bot accounts to push this stuff.
If it is regular Beehaw members, that is for sure unnerving!
EDIT: am too dumb at internet to find it. Tried a search (for “ai” to keep it broad), browsing local and looking at subscriptions which aren’t totally incompatible places for such a topic, but coming up blank. Feel free to fling a link my way.
I understand your sentiment, threads on generative AI get me all worked up as well. I couldn’t resist jumping into the fray and I did have the distinct impression that most users supporting OpenAI’s stance were originating from other Lemmy instances and that many Beehaw based users were against it. My humble opinion is that this specific thread is more representative of the Fediverse’s vibe than of Beehaw’s.
I very much doubt you’ll get snark for your comment. That’s just not what Beehaw stands for. If you decide to hang in there some more, I suggest you pay attention to the commenters’ Lemmy instance. Beehaw embodies the hope for a caring web community, but the rest of the Fediverse doesn’t necessarily share the same ideals.
Technology is fun and interesting. AI is interesting and there’s a lot of research going on right now.
But I noticed the same things you do. Many people seem to be “anti-humanity”. We as people need workers protections, better social programs, and more so terrible consequences of these technologies don’t harm us. Technology should be used to help people and societies thrive not for the elite to keep even more power.
Beehaw may not be perfect. And you have a great example of why beehaw should leave the fediverse. But beehaw is the only place I’ve found where we can have civil discussion on topics. Much of the toxicity introduced in beehaw come from non beehaw users. I enjoy my time here, but it’s not for everyone. If you leave, I hope you find a space that’s best for you.
I’m fed up already. Neighbours felt the need to party, with music and screaming, until about 4am. 2024 looks to be significantly more financially challenging than 2023 as my primary source of income has had the final nail in its coffin. I’m not looking forward to going back to university next week - I like the course as a whole, I just despise one of my fellow students and the thought of having to endure his obnoxiousness for another two and a half years is just…
I’m starting this year from a place of having almost completely given up, and it’s all downhill from here.
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