Oh man, waiting an hour or so for a bus in -30℃ weather is great. Then the bus is inevitably late because it’s Edmonton (where public transit doesn’t seem to get public funding) and you get to enjoy the great outdoors for another thirty minutes. I’m surprised I still have my toes…
I’m so glad my parents gave me their old truck so I don’t really have to deal with that shit any more.
I agree this kind of post may play in favour of ICE manufacturers and oil companies but I disagree with the comparison you make between EVs and tobacco patches. EVs are produced and sold in order to replace ICEs in the exact same segment. They do not impact peoples lives significantly and will not change anything in the way cities and activities work now. The example you give is the epitome of a work/life organization which was only made possible by the massification of individual motorized transportation, with all the negative externalities listed in the OP. Yes individual cars are going to be needed for many reasons in the future. But we need to work collectively to make them less convenient and less needed in everyday life.
oh buzz off with your weird essay filled with jabs and fallacies and bad faith. actually I just reread it and I have to ask: what the fuck is wrong with you? you’re acting like a white guy who hears two black people talking about racism and leaps in to say “stop calling me racist!” you think this post is calling you out? what the actual fuck is wrong with you?
NO ONE IS SAYING YOU ARE PERSONALLY MORALLY WRONG FOR DRIVING A CAR TODAY IN 2024
that’s the whole fucking gist of this entire guy’s essay, folks. he thinks criticizing EVs is a personal attack on him and people who don’t currently live in walkable cities
So the entire metric for ‘shithole’ to you is based on how many people ride electrified trains? Really? Nothing about, say, their economy or their standard of living or their record on human rights or anything like that?
And the country with the flawless human rights record is what? Iceland because there’s no one to oppress since everyone’s related to everyone else? Great. The rest of 200-some other countries are shitholes by that measure. Again, not the best metric.
Let’s talk about your country now. Where do you live? Will you even volunteer that information?
I am now deeply curious about the deleted comments. All countries have their flaws and past mistakes, Canada's no exception, at the end of the day. The thing is what we're doing now to improve and reflect on these mistakes of the past going forward.
The problem with electric cars is that they’re a distraction. They make people think they’re part of the solution when they’re only partly addressing one of the many problems cars cause. I’m not against people buying them assuming that they’re in a position where they need a new car, but advocating for electric cars as a solution is wrong. I read the OP like this, not how you read it.
I have the occasional beer I’m on year two of LSV [low speed vehicle] 25mph max, 30 mile range. The GEM does what I need it to do. Old & retired, so my requirements are minimal, maybe 100 miles a month. I heard lots of opinion that the low speed would invoke road rage. I find that driving the GEM is much like towing a RV, if there are more than a couple of cars, I pull over & let them pass. Mechanically & electrically basic. Everything is smaller & lighter, so I can do the minor maintenance. The difference in travel time is minimal. Easier to drive safely as my physical skills decline.
Not really a climate solution, more of a pragmatic conservation of my personal resources.
A good start would be greatly restricting the speed, power & performance of vehicles allowed to be registered on the street. Wanna drive 0-60 in 3 seconds & three times the speed limit, go to the race track
Diesel trains are much more environmentally friendly than EVs. Diesel emissions become less of a problem when one engine carries hundreds of people. And diesel doesn’t even pretend to be good for the environment.
This is why people hate liberals, and why liberals often migrate over to conservatism: no matter how right you are, there’s always someone happy to crap on you for not being right enough.
Don’t shit on EVs for merely being one of many solutions that all need to be engaged with. It’s not like without EVs, so many people would be rushing to areas of greater density and riding public transit, so your message is not helpful in achieving what you want, and actively angers your allies.
I don’t doubt that that’s the case, but I’m just pointing out (humorously) the absurdity of someone who is purportedly a principled individual who cares about things like climate change, civil/human rights, equality, bodily autonomy and most importantly democracy changing to the side that is openly against all of those things because people can be harsh and nasty on the internet sometimes.
Like, if someone really was so flimsy with their morals that they could bend so easily, did they ever really care in the first place? Or were they just looking for an excuse to blame the other side for their fecklessness?
I hate ignorant conservatives, but you mostly can’t do much about them because they listen to no one. But progressive ignorance is something I feel compelled to correct: progressives pretend to care about things other than their own assholes.
Meaningless meme. Because people see problems with your simplistic stance doesn’t make them Trump. There should be a plan to get there from here, and right now, you guys are removed about EVs, which are part of the plan for getting there from here.
Ah yes conservatism, the famous side of rational thinking and anti-bias thoughts, such as avoiding the perfect solution bias
Your comment having so many upvotes is disgusting
I shit on liberals mostly because of their notions on ‘altruistic capitalism’. As soon as they purchase an EV, they think they’re out there saving the world and most don’t think critically past that.
I think both sides are lacking nuance here. If you shit on people getting electric vehicles or just thinking of getting one because that’s not far enough: fuck you. But also, for people that just switched or are thinking of getting one but then see something like this and slam into reverse and say “I’m gonna support ICE cars till the day I die to spite those overly hostile woke liberals”: fuck you too.
People should be able to take the information in a more nuanced way, and should stop swinging from extreme to extreme which has led to the current fucked state of politics
I really have to agree that it’s posts like this that made me give up on left wing politics, in certainly not right wing but I see no hope for the left until fundermental problems are fixed which I don’t believe politics or media is capable of addressing.
Further I am absolutely convinced a large portion of the loudest voices on climate change are so obsessed because they desperately want it to be the big doom that fucks up all the impressive things other people are achieving.
If you’ve given up „left wing“ politics because of a few things people have said on the internet, I have news for you: You never were left wing to begin with. Also, you’re an idiot.
If pointing out that EVs aren’t a real solution is enough to alienate those “allies” they weren’t really allies at all. It’s also less about individual choice to move to areas with better transit, and more about pressuring the government to install better transit everywhere instead of just funneling endless money to car manufacturers.
EVs aren’t a solution to anything except as a way to trick people into thinking purchasing a car is saving the environment or helping fix society.
If liberals are so shallow that they adopt racism because someone was mean to them online, then I’m glad they’re being more honest. The message is that cars, all cars, are something worth fighting against. Electric cars are not a step in the right direction, they’re not even a bandaid. They’re just something liberals can purchase to make them feel like they’re helping something. They’re toys.
Honestly I would rather if most liberals outright come out as conservative, because it sounds like they’re on the line already. It would be more honest of them.
Adopting EVs is an important step imo. The primary achievement of going EV is reducing oil/gas use. Moving away from cars as a society is a separate goal that can happen alongside this. We can never make gas green, at best net zero. EVs on the other hand can be better, with electricity from renewable sources, to batteries made with better materials. Both things which are happening and actively being researched.
So we can make EVs much better environmentally, and reduce gas demand significantly alongside reducing car use. Because we won’t just stop needing gas magically, so replacing that is important for any transition away from it in the grand scheme.
Yeah I just don’t see it. If we want to reduce oil/gas use then the goal would be eliminating private car use altogether and providing alternatives. EVs are still a huge machine designed to transport a single person. They’re still a waste, not to mention how much the global south is getting exploited for their lithium.
Cars just aren’t going to save anything. Here, I’ll compromise. Electric bicycles.
For city use I agree with you but if you live in a small town you need a car. You are too far from almost everything you need. And you don’t have public transport.
If you live in a little town in the middle of nowhere you won’t have public transport. It’s too expensive. Private transport it’s the only way to go anywhere from there. It’s a shame but…
Yeah, I’m an angry ball of rage because I live in a white supremacist hellscape where everyone is too smug or too tired to care. I don’t have any thoughts remaining other than the word fuck. The pretense of being thoughtful is a facade. My true self wants to roll in mud and scream obscenities at anyone I think looks too wealthy.
Don’t take it so personally. sure EVs have a role to play but if we’re to be serious about tackling climate change and environmental sustainability it’s going to require massive infrastructure redevelopment projects, not asking everyone to please swap to rechargeable batteries. It’s not about being “right enough” it’s about recognizing a non-solution and also on a policy level a blatant scam. All these EV subsides the liberal Biden administration is throwing out are an obvious hand out to the failing American auto industry to try to keep them competitive and desperate ploy to their quickly dwindling supporters for them to look like they’re doing anything worthwhile on climate change at all.
Having every American buy a new electric car is just going to make a few auto executives rich as hell and not even reduce overall global emissions because those cheaper ICE cars that can’t be sold in America are just going to go to other parts of the world that don’t have EV infrastructure but have plenty of already existing gas stations. And there’s all the emissions of actually building the damn things. No, they need to put their money where their mouth is and build some fucking trains.
I’m not taking it personally: hyper-progressive policies that require achievements in infrastructure change orders of magnitude more costly and complicated than any other event in human history described as “just something folks have to do” as if it’s that easy, as if they’re not just happening because of half a dozen car company CEOs… they just make me queasy that you’re an ally of mine in our desire to fight global warming.
Lmao you are not an ally in fighting global warming if you don’t support major changes in infrastructure. You are taking this way too personally, you’re in a fuck_cars community crying about how we shouldn’t be mean about cars.
You can agree that EV’s are a non-solution while still accepting that you live in a place that’s so fucked up that it doesn’t provide you with an alternative.
No, I’m saying that removed about EVs does what, exactly? The infrastructure change you’re glib about happens how? You haven’t even thought of that. You have a goal, but no map from here to there. You’re still stuck at the fuck cars stage it seems.
Try to actually solve the problem instead of removed about incremental solutions that don’t do enough for your taste.
Infrastructure change at the scale you’re speaking about is not unheard of. The Netherlands did it twice. First because Europe got the shit bombed out of it and building car centric cities was trendy, then second because they realized what a shit idea that was and reversed it.
Sure, the Netherlands was never sparse in the first place, but nobody’s asking for trains to farmer John’s house in Nebraska. If the Netherlands can rework their cities to at least chillax on cars, so can American cities.
I know using the Netherlands as an example is trite, but urban planners literally know the solutions.
First because Europe got the shit bombed out of it
It has little to do with that, actually. There are very few cities that got heavily hit. What was removed and remodelled in the 60s and 70s was way more than the war had damaged and it happened after the major repairs were already done. Even cities and countries the war never really touched got extensive remodelling.
It was a completely deliberate decision to remodel those cities, driven by modernist ideas.
Dunno, in Lithuania and around they are getting bigger, not sure about the western Europe though. But seeing every car brand making bigger versions of each car (Yaris cross, Peugeot 2008, Volkswagen t-cross and many more)makes me think they probably are getting bigger there as well.
it’s already hard to fit a small car to park in the city, i don’t understand how people can even think to buy a car that’s longer than 4 meters. Roads and houses were built during the baby boom when cars weren’t used by everyone, so for example in my area there are 0.8 car parks per family.
Then i see my cousin, living alone, single, no family buying a huge 5,5 meters SUV “because in the next three years i plan to move, bigger space is useful”. Could rent a van for 100 euro a day instead of spending 10k euro extra for a monster…
Riot control vehicle lpt :If you just fill the water cannon tank to half full instead of topping up you save quite a lot over time due to reduced litre/km consumption
Emission laws made big trucks easier to produce than small trucks in the US, I miss the days of the short bed pickup. Still like my 98 taco and use it for hauling hay.
Not really, if you’re doing your weekly shop all in one go (especially for a family), it can make sense that your weekly shop can be more than you can carry and thus you need something to help you carry it. I wouldn’t want to lug 4-5 bags of shopping onto a bus where I’m going to piss someone off because I placed them on the seat, nor do I want to try to balance all that on the handlebars of a bike where a single fuckup or pothole I can’t see will lose me lots of money in shopping.
I don’t personally do those sorts of large shops, but people are busy and literally schedule this in their week so it’s not insane.
Or hey, maybe more people could shop online? With well planned routes it could be more efficient than lots of people all travelling to one place.
My supermarket does this: if you go shopping with public transport, then you can ask the cashier to have someone deliver the just purchased groceries to your house for 5 euro
I used to have this handcart and it could easily carry enough groceries for 3 people for 1 week. We’d put stuff directly inside at the counter and then empty it in the kitchen, then fold it up for storage. It was maybe 100 euros? And of course you could also use it for picnics or shopping for other things.
For heavy stuff we’d use delivery or a lasttaxi. Basically a taxi for carrying heavier things.
The other option to “reduce” cars is replan and rebuild entire cities, districts and even countries around the idea of places being nearby enough to be able to walk or cycle. And cars would still be needed.
This is why mobile electric cars are an easier option. It turns out that there has to be some level of autonomy and ownership, rather than thinking purging cars out of existence will suddenly move us towards full communism, or whatever the idea is. Allowing personal ownership means people have ways to rebuild places to live or migrate for themselves.
The bigger problem is not the smaller cars, but the SUVs and mini trucks everyone loves to have, and multiple car ownership. Pareto frontier is the key to everything, cutting down on emissions and too many cars on roads included.
prices are not where an average person could go out and buy one in the usa $7.25 is still the minimum wage not to mention rising costs of insurance and property taxes and some states tack on extras fee for certain things and some insurance companies are leaving states making the cost jump even more
cheaper gasoline vehicles are barely affordable if at all for most even used ones
what about the battery and materials having to be mined and what have you
are the workers from material gathering to the final build paid a fair living wage
in some places such as tennessee the charging stations for electric are shutting down
Honest question. Does anyone here have enough humility to understand there’s a similar checklist of things an automobile solves?
Now it doesn’t mean it’s the right solution but particularly in North America due to lack of XYZ automobiles are king.
It’s very easy to go “hurr durr automobiles bad” but do you understand the multitude of reasons why we use them? All the things that need to be improved or fixed before we entertain the alternatives?
Saying this as a car owner who takes public transit far more than other car owners.
For the appearance of XYZ we need a policy and cultural change, and for that we need to be very vocal about how stupid and inefficient cars are (i.e. hurr durr automobiles bad).
And I’ll tell you right back that people don’t care about your list here. You want to get people onboard start pivoting the conversation. “yaytransit” is far more positive and forward thinking than “fuckcars”.
In fact, the responses I’ve gotten already are a good indication of how deluded this community is. You’re not here to promote change, you’re here to scream into the wind.
So I guess consider that more a failing on my part.
And I’ll tell you right back that people don’t care about your list here.
You != People
“yaytransit” is far more positive and forward thinking than “fuckcars”.
Huh, it’s almost like there is room for more than one community and angle to achieve things.
Do you know what brought change to the Netherlands, which was an extremely car centric country once? Riots. Pure and simple „fuck this shit“ riots in the streets.
how deluded this community is.
Sure, everyone who disagrees with you is „deluded“.
So I guess consider that more a failing on my part.
Riots and protests don’t need your approval or applause. They happen because the majority of people are too complacent. If everyone was already aboard we’d just do those things, you know. You probably don’t understand this, because you never stuck out your neck for anything in your life.
I’ve noticed that people often imagine that they know what kind of person I am, because in their minds it makes it easy to build up a strawman version of a person that fits their preconceived ideas of the “bad guy” that’s opposed to their dumb ideas. Here you go again, doing that. But in reality, all you know is that I made fun of your idea of rioting against cars.
People can read your other comments as well, you know? Your account is a textbook about insecure masculinity, Mr. „I am the man other men wish they could be“ 😂
“Does anyone here have enough humility to understand there’s a similar checklist of things an automobile solves?”
Firstly, this feels a very confrontational way of phrasing the question. It carries with it the assumption that you are right and everyone else is wrong, which I don’t feel is a helpful way of approaching a discussion.
Yes, of course people realise that car ownership is the only viable solution for individuals at the current time. You have engaged with a community who are passionate about and engaged in urban planning, so they are going to be more switched onto the challenges than most.
The entire point is that on their own they are not a sustainable solution long-term. They are hugely inefficient energy and space-wise, their infrastructure causes massive damage to the communities they carve through (see this Guardian article for a breakdown of some NA case studies), and they currently cause a huge amount of environmental damage.
So, the question becomes: how can we remove the need for car ownership? There’s a host of ideas, from better high speed rail links to eliminate long-distance trips, to micromobility and demand responsive transport for short-distance, to better constructing our cities to begin with to allow for amenities to be walkable. Are we going to eliminate car use in rural areas? Of course not; there’s no point running a bus service for a village of 10 people and a goat. Can we eliminate 99% of car trips for those in built up areas, improving air quality, walkability, and accessibility? That should absolutely be the goal.
Yes. Nobody is suggested we should ban all cars everywhere.
Cars are incredible. I do trips to remote places all the time that would be impossible without cars. There’s no better way to transport 5 people and their gear for a week to a place that’s 100km from the nearest small town.
But for 1 guy commuting from the suburbs to work in the city every day in their SUV? Fuck that, the system is broken to even entertain that as a possibility.
You forgot about the material extraction and carbon emissions for manufaturing a new electric car. Can someone link the data for it please?
Edit: The article in below reply says it best. Lithium extraction and manufaturing emissions for electric cars are bad for the environment but still dozens of times better than ICE cars lifecycle emissions
It heavily depends on the battery technology used in that particular vehicle and the economy of scale. The emissions reduce as the build batches increase
And is there a better solution? And don’t give me that public transportation bullshit, it’s a bad solution in most cases and is already in place anyway.
Then it isn’t good enough yet. People will use public transport when it’s better or cheaper than a car. Dedicated bus lanes to bypass car traffic should be in place, to encourage using busses that create less traffic. Trains should be reliable, frequent, and cheap for longer distance travel. This stuff is all do-able with just a small amount of effort, and has been done and successful in other places, but it requires governments to stuff huffing gasoline.
What kind of public transport? And how is it implemented? The devil is in the details for this stuff.
Free bus tickets do nothing if the buses are stuck in traffic with no bus lane so often that people go “fuck it” and take the car anyway, because it’s more convenient.
Free metro tickets do nothing if the routes don’t go where people want to go.
Free train tickets do nothing if the trains don’t leave frequently enough to have options and/or are stuck waiting for freight trains to pass.
There’s any number of non-monetary reasons that public transport might suck, but there are solutions for them.
The problem is that it isn’t a matter of cars vs busses. It’s a matter of urban design in general.
Public transit gets better as density goes up. A bus that drops you off at a giant-ass Walmart parking lot with nothing else but two drivethroughs in walking distance isn’t very useful. A bus that drops you off in a neighborhood with 4 dozen shops, a dozen restaurants, 4 bars and 3 coffee shops within a 5 minute walk is way more useful.
By contrast, density makes driving worse. Density means more people are driving the same way you want to go. More people in cars means more traffic on the road with you. Designing for cars pushes you to low density sprawl.
Just building public transit isn’t the solution. Just building public transit in a typical American suburban sprawl makes something about as compelling as a Ford F150 in Vatican City.
You have to fix urban design - stop building stroads and start building streetcar suburbs again.
I mean, step 1 would be forcing the suburbs to pay the actual cost for their own power lines, plumbing and sewage, roads, phone lines, etc. Since as it stands, most of that cost is subsidised by the highly productive inner city, and that infrastructure is far cheaper per-person in dense neighbourhoods than it is in suburban tumours (sure, live out there if you want, but accept that you will either be paying a fortune for the infrastructure upkeep that supports you, or accept lower-class, cheaper infrastructure. I have a great aunt and uncle who live out in the countryside, and they have a dirt road, a septic tank and a rainwater tank, only their electricity and phone lines are comparable to what you get in cities, because it literally does not make economic sense to run paved roads or plumbing out to where they live).
Once people have realised that single-family housing with paved roads, sewage, plumbing and reliable electricity is well outside the economic reach of the vast majority of people, UPZONE. Demolish suburbs to replace them with far denser urban neighbourhoods, ones made up of townhouses, apartment blocks and mixed residential/commercial buildings. Change the zoning laws so that anyone can start a commercial business out of the front yard. Designate parks and other community areas in between your blocks of apartments and townhouses so that nobody is ever more than 15 minutes’ walk away from one. And for those who still want to live out in suburban sprawl, make the transition to being more self-sufficient easier.
Then, you have a city dense enough that you can start running vast amounts of public transport through it. Not just busses, but trains and trams as well. A train is more or less the ideal form of fast transportation along a known, unchanging transport corridor, with far more energy efficiency than anything that runs on tarmac, the ability to hit highway speeds inside city limits, and the ability to be extended almost infinitely. They can also be run from overhead power lines, no need for batteries or internal combustion engines. Oh, and the same lines you run urban rail along can also be used for freight trains, so they can replace both car journeys and freight truck journeys.
When you have dense cities with well-designed and extensive public transport, you can get almost anywhere with just one transfer, your bus/train/tram comes often enough that you’re never at the stop for more than 10 minutes, and even a trip from one edge of the city to the other will rarely be more than an hour. Plus, you don’t have to pay attention to the road, nor pay for fuel and maintenance.
Source: I live in a city where you can sharply draw a divide between the pre-car and post-car zones, and the pre-car zones are mostly like how I describe, while the post-car zones are suburban sprawl shitholes that might have a train station if they’re lucky
Your comment does nothing but make people angry. It’s not helping anything, and will not change the behavior of anyone. When you insult someone, you only make enemies for yourself, and that’s nothing to be proud of.
Take some time and think about what you write and how it can realistically affect the world. Would you not rather make a positive contribution, and improve social media?
“Sure, the planet is unfit for human habitation now, but at least we got to have lawns in front of our houses and meat every day until the world ended”
Stopping climate change requires drastic action, rethinking how we live every aspect of our lives, and the wastefulness of suburbs means they must go, just like the internal combustion engine and the animal agriculture industry. How will you justify to future generations that you left them with a ruined world, all because you and those like you were too selfish to give up your current style of living?
Additionally, they are provably a blight on cities. They cost far more to maintain than they produce, since they lack any serious commercial activity, so no taxes, and the spread-out nature of them means that any infrastructure is far more expensive per person. You wouldn’t even need to actively demolish them, just cut off all maintenance, and watch them rot. Plus, they keep literally bankrupting cities, so often there is no choice, the money is no longer there to maintain them.
Sure, go right ahead and get to work on that plan then. I’m sure everyone in the suburbs will agree to give up their homes and land and move to the dense urban Soviet-style shitholes that you envision as the perfect way to live.
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