Sell Me on Linux

TCB13, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

I’ll instead “un-sell” you on Linux: tadeubento.com/…/linux-desktop-a-collective-delus…

Given your job I wouldn’t do it:

People who need MS Office because once you have to collaborate with others Open/Libre/OnlyOffice won’t cut it. If one lives in a bubble and doesn’t to collaborate with others then native Linux apps might work and might even deliver a decent workflow. Once collaboration with Windows/Mac users is required then it’s game over – the “alternatives” aren’t just up to it.

Windows licenses are cheap and things work out of the box. Software runs fine, all vendors support whatever you’re trying to do and you’re productive from day zero. Sure, there are annoyances from time to time, but they’re way fewer and simpler to deal with than the hoops you’ve to go through to get a minimal and viable/productive Linux desktop experience.

It all comes down to a question of how much time (days? months?) you want to spend fixing things on Linux that simply work out of the box under Windows for a minimal fee. Buy a Windows license and spend the time you would’ve spent dealing with Linux issues doing your actual job and you’ll, most likely, get a better ROI.

Linux desktop is great, I love it but I don’t sugar coat it nor I’m delusional like most posting about it.

Maxy, 1 year ago

People who need MS Office because once you have to collaborate with others Open/Libre/OnlyOffice won’t cut it;

I use office almost daily, Libreoffice is fine for local editing and office online works if I have to collaborate.

People that just installed a password manager (KeePassXC) and a browser (Firefox/Ungoogled) via flatpak only to find out that the KeePassXC app can’t communicate with the browser extension because people are “beating around the bush” on GitHub instead of fixing the issue;

I simply installed the Bitwarden extension in Firefox and it worked flawlessly. I’m not quite sure why you would want a desktop app for a password manager (never needed this even on windows), but if you do, basically distro ships a regular Firefox package which will work just as on windows.

Anyone who wants a simple Virtual Machine and has to go thought cumbersome installation procedures like this one just to get error messages saying virtualization isn’t enable when, in fact, it is… or trying to use GNOME Boxes and have a sub-par virtualization experience;

4 commands doesn’t seem that cumbersome, it can quite literally be done in 30 seconds. Add to this the fact that it will be updated together with all other apps managed by you package manager, which is incomparably faster compared to windows update (or even most apps’ integrated self-updater)

My experience with gnome boxes was also one of the most hassle-free one ever when working with virtualisation. Worked without advanced setup on a very low-end laptop (i3 4th gen, 4gb DDR3), so I’m not quite sure what would be “sub-par”.

Designers because Adobe apps won’t run properly without having a dedicated GPU, passthrough and a some hacky way to get the image back into your main system that will cause noticeable delays;

Adobe doesn’t have a monopoly on design software. I’m not an artist though, so it could be true that the Linux alternatives aren’t full replacements. I would like to point out that, IIRC, Linus Media Group (a company with 100+ employees) uses macs for Adobe apps; windows would constantly crash, so even here the author’s conclusion (just buy a windows key) doesn’t hold up.

Gamers because of the reasons above plus a flat 5-15% performance hit;

In my experience running games though proton, this is more like a 5% difference in either direction. Native games generally run significantly better for me. Though I will admit this can depend on specific hardware and games (and proton has improved a lot over the years).

People that run old software / games because not even those will run properly on Wine;

Wine is actually starting to support an API which Microsoft has deprecated (www.phoronix.com/news/Wine-8.16-Released). These apps might only work on Linux in the future, not on windows anymore. I will admit that I’m not much of a retro gamer, and other API’s might be a different story.

Developers and sysadmins, because not everyone is using Docker and Github actions to deploy applications to some proprietary cloud solution. Finding a properly working FTP/SFTP/FTPS desktop client (similar WinSCP or Cyberduck) is an impossible task as the ones that exist fail even at basic tasks like dragging and dropping a file.

Want to start using a new language? Just apt install the new interpreter/compiler and start right away. Want to use sftp? Just type sftp into your terminal. Also, most regular file managers just support these protocols out of the box; not having to install a separate app to use these protocols sounds like a Linux win to me. Furthermore, when developing software intended for server use, linux is simply superior due to its similarity to the environment the software will eventually run on.

Just to make it clear, I understand that Linux is not perfect for everyone. But this article appears almost wilfully ignorant to multiple facts. It almost sounds like the author tried Linux for 2 hours, had a single issue they couldn’t resolve during that time (probably nvidia related, which is nvidia’s fault), and decided to give up and write salty articles instead of seeking help.

TCB13, 1 year ago

I use office almost daily, Libreoffice is fine for local editing and office online works if I have to collaborate.

So you’re essentially making the point of the article “office online works if I have to collaborate” implied that LibreOffice really isn’t up for collaboration.

Maxy, 1 year ago

Yes, libreoffice doesn’t really work for live collaboration. But office online is a good solution for that collaboration, and it works in any browser (including Firefox on Linux). Therefore, the author’s conclusion (you need windows to collaborate on word docs) is still wrong.

I personally also believe that WYSIWYG editors are highly overrated: markdown is significantly better for note-taking and similar small documents, and reports would often be better off with LaTeX or something similar. But I understand why the “4 commands is too much hassle to install VirtualBox” crowd might prefer word.

TCB13, 1 year ago

Yes, libreoffice doesn’t really work for live collaboration. But office online is a good solution for that collaboration (…) Therefore, the author’s conclusion (you need windows to collaborate on word docs) is still wrong.

The author isn’t wrong neither he’s right as the actual answer is: it depends. We don’t even have to go as far as “live collaboration” if you’ve to do serious work in MS Office apps just emailing a document to a co-worker that uses LibreOffice can end up badly. LibreOffice works, yes, until you find your custom TOC broken, macros not working, embedded content from other documents not there… images scattered around or even paragraphs ending on a different page just because the MS version of some font is slightly different from what comes with LibreOffice but different enough to totally trash your document. Even Office online has issues with some of the things I described, let alone LibreOffice and this is precisely why people in big companies buy MS Office.

Let me show you even on a very simple document I just made how wrong you are. I created the following document in MS Word and then proceeded to open it in LibreOffice just look at the comments:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f2684d35-6584-4f75-9bc7-677dcf8d85a1.jpeg

It’s all simple formatting a couple of headings, text and a bullet list and yet it fails.

Now even better is that if I change the document in some way in LibreOffice and try to save it I get this message:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5c8a65fc-9dcd-4b1a-9715-78dd9c7066f5.jpeg

So… LibreOffice can’t even ensure that the most basic formatting and features are displayed and saved properly. So much for “it works fine”.

I personally also believe that WYSIWYG editors are highly overrated: markdown is significantly better for note-taking and similar small documents, and reports would often be better off with LaTeX or something similar.

Let me guess you’re someone who works in IT and never had a typical “office job” that includes spending 90% of your time writing reports and pushing spreadsheets around. This is why you don’t get it, you’re not the typical user of MS Office and you don’t share the same use cases the OP, the article author and myself share.

Maxy, 1 year ago

Yes, some minor formatting changes occur when opening a docx file in libreoffice. Hardly sounds like a deal breaker to me. And yes, you do get a pop-up when saving to docx in libreoffice (with the toggle to disable the pop-ups right there in the message). Microsoft office does the exact same thing when saving to an odt file though: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/pictrs/image/7c7c3a1b-df3b-48c5-aeca-8e0f2b766ba9.png

Once again, if you have to collaborate with office-users (and you cannot deal with the horror of having a different amount of space between the items), just use office online. How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Let me guess you’re someone who works in IT and never had a typical “office job” that includes spending 90% of your time writing reports and pushing spreadsheets around.

1. No, I do not work in IT, nor do I aspire to work in IT. I’m just a regular PC-user, who just so happens to have other opinions than you do. HOW DARE I?!?
2. Wouldn’t IT-workers of all people know what the more optimized editors are?

This is why you don’t get it, you’re not the typical user of MS Office and you don’t share the same use cases the OP, the article author and myself share.

1. The article you shared was talking about gaming, the adobe creative suite, virtual machines, electrical engineers, labs, architects and sysadmins/developers. Please don’t try to claim that the article author and OP ever had “the same use cases”.
2. I guess you are finally correct though, I’m indeed not the typical user of MS Office (thank god). The typical user pays $70 a year just to edit word docs, while calling the family tech support each time they try to add a horizontal page in word. If your use case is being trapped into a proprietary office solution, where you have to provide a reason before microsoft allows you to shut down your onedrive, where all your documents are saved in a mythical “cloud”, then I am glad that our use-cases differ.
3. I hope you see the irony of you using markdown in a comment describing why I am “out of touch” for using markdown.

If you want to use windows, that’s fine. But please don’t share such blatantly ignorant articles, and don’t try to defend them when multiple people point out why it is wrong about so many things.

I probably won’t reply to your next reaction (should there be any) unless you come up with some actual arguments, instead of “the line spacing is broken, you’re out of touch, not me”.

TCB13, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

How many times do I have to repeat myself?

And how many times do I have to tell you that Office Online doesn’t have all the features of Office Desktop? It isn’t even close.

When LibreOffice can’t even make sure text ends up on the same place (as on the screenshot) it isn’t good for collaboration with MS Office users.

Why is it so hard for you look at the screenshot and admit that it isn’t as good as you’ve been saying?

using markdown in a comment describing why I am “out of touch” for using markdown.

No, you’re not “out of touch” for using markdown, you’re “out of touch” for implying that markdown can be a solution for the typical MS Office user as you did.

h3ndrik, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

I’ve debunked that article before. Nearly every statement in it is wrong.

lemmy.world/post/7068568

It’s written by someone who expected it to work 100% like the Windows on his PC he is accustomed to. But it doesn’t work that way.

olafurp, 1 year ago

Get the list of programs you commonly use and figure out if they’re on Linux or have alternatives. Libreoffice, VLC and Okular are good for your case. If you find it limiting and need MS features then browser Office 365 is very good.

The best option would be to buy a used laptop and install Linux, Linux works great on old hardware so you could find something 3-7y old and it’ll run very well.

If you’re coming from Apple try anything with Gnome that’s popular (Ubuntu, Fedora).

If you’re coming from windows try anything that uses KDE (Kubuntu, Fedora w KDE, KDE neon).

If you don’t tinker with things under the hood generally you’ll have a painless polished experience.

Being able to get a modern OS that runs smoothly on a 200$ used laptop is the major selling point for you, rest is extra.

plantedworld, 1 year ago

We use browser office 365 at work. It’s on a Windows computer. I gotta say it sucks ass if your stuff doesn’t all live in an associated onedrive. We have a shared drive that common files live in and accessing them from the browser office is a mess.

radioactiveradio, 1 year ago

Two words “No Advertisements”

the_third, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

I mean, who would have thought 10 years ago that this would one day be a valid reason to switch away from the OS with the biggest marketshare. Weird times.

PseudoSpock, 1 year ago

You can’t be sold on Linux. Anyone ‘sold on’ or ‘lead to’ Linux isn’t going to stick with it. The desire to learn to use and be productive with Linux is purely an internal one. Selling you on it would be like trying to push you into a religion. For this, you need to sell yourself on Linux. Install it, run it, make it your daily system for a few weeks or months… then you can decide if it is for you. The questions you’ll need to find answers to are, but not limited to:

• Will it run the software I need? You mention PDF’s… Viewing non-encrypted PDF’s is no problem. For encrypted PDF forms that I’ve seen from some government sites, I needed Windows or Mac to fill them out reliably. I was able to do some within Wine, but that wasn’t stable enough to depend on.
• Be aware there are desktop choices. Linux comes in many flavours, some can present and work similar to a Windows desktop workflow, some more similar to Mac (but not quite), and some are just either heritage UNIX styles or just Linux unique. Finding what you prefer can take some trial and effort.
• I suggest Linux distributions that offer disk encryption (and be sure to use it). If you were my lawyer, I wouldn’t want the documents we share to be left around un-encrypted anywhere.

Check out some Linux periodicals, as well. They can help wet your whistle with reviews on various Linux distributions and often some introductory articles on software and How-To’s. If that kind of thing interests you, you’ve already half sold yourself on Linux.

phoenixz, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

Linux is vastly superior. I’ve been on Linux desktop for over 20 years now, I’ll never go back.

As a typical example: this weekend I install Linux (with download and making iso) takes 20 minutes, I install windows (first time in decades, something for my son), took fucking 6 hours, 14 attempts, loads of problem searching on internet.

Having said that, there are some things to keep in mind. Linux mostly (to users) is slightly different on a few details, and because of Microsoft, there are some things to keep in mind.

You’re a lawyer, so you might have to deal with Microsoft documents. Those you can process with LibreOffice (I don’t like it very much, like Microsoft office), google drive (works very nice, but is still closed source, google) or your own hosted linux server with nextcloud and only office (a bit harder to setup but then it’s all yours and under your control)

Look into any closed source windows applications that are required. Most windows programs run also under Linux (wine, proton, and these days various other solutions up to a virtual machine with windows for those few exceptions that won’t work on Linux for some reason)

Video formats are non-issue, Linux eats everything and mostly out of the box.

Then, Linux has distributions. See it as different car brands. They’re all cars, based on the same tech, just different brand names that do details slightly different. You gotta choose a distro (distribution). I HIGHLY recommend either fedora or (my person Lal preference) a Ubuntu variant. I personally have been using kubuntu for over a decade now. The graphical user interface works mostly like windows (just better) and most programs have Ubuntu ready Linux versions available, making installing them super easy. Install VirtualBox (free, as usual) to run windows in a virtual machine if needed, and setup multiple desktops so that you can easily switch to a windows desktop when needed (hopefully, and likely, never)

If you need help let me know

utopiah, 1 year ago

In 1 word : freedom.

robinj1995, 1 year ago

The fact that there’s entire communities full of people who will spend energy trying to convince you to give it a try, rather than a corporation with a marketing budget and lobbying power :)

UsernameNotFound, 1 year ago

Get a MacBook and use apple software if you are a lawyer.

captain_aggravated, 1 year ago

I think you should absolutely download a Linux distro or three along with VirtualBox and try it out. Look at a couple different desktops, play with cowsay, have a good time.

Don’t switch to an unfamiliar operating system on a work machine without doing a lot of learning first.

Linux itself works in a very different way to Windows. The file system is fundamentally different, for one. You should learn how the Linux file system works, how it’s structured, how users and permissions work, etc.

You would be amazed the little things I’ve seen people lose their shit over. Give a small example, I saw a guy blow all the way up because Linux doesn’t use the word “shortcut.” You know how in Windows, you can have an icon on your desktop with that little arrow next to it, and it might start a program, or it might open an individual file? In Linux, those concepts are called Launchers and Links respectively. There’s a lot of little details like that. Keyboard shortcuts, what the middle mouse button does, all that kind of stuff is different as well, and that kind of thing even varies between distros.

You’ll have to learn how to administer the system, how to keep up with updates, how to take and restore backups for your files and for the system. How to secure the system.

The bigger thing is going to be the software library. The phrase “word documents” stands out to me. There are several different productivity suites and word processors available for Linux, none of them are perfectly compatible with MS Word. In college I found that LibreOffice was perfectly adequate for projects I was doing myself. MLA formatted essay? No problem at all. Group project where you have to work together on a powerpoint presentation? Functionally impossible. I’ve given plenty of talks using LibreOffice Impress for visual aids, it works fine, but it interoperates with MS PowerPoint about as well as my cat does. If you’re expected to communicate documents to other lawyers, the government etc. in .docx format…Linux may not be the best choice at least yet.

Your Word templates and such would likely have to be converted or redone. You don’t need to install a Linux machine to find that out; you can install LibreOffice on a Windows machine and try it out.

PDF support is a bit better with the exception of forms. I forget exactly why, which organization was being a little pissy diaper bitch about putting closed source components in an open standard, was it Adobe themselves or the USPS of all people (why do I remember they’re involved?), but PDF forms aren’t well supported in PDF readers and writers available for Linux, and Adobe doesn’t publish Acrobat for Linux. Typing up a word processing document and saving it as a PDF, opening a PDF and looking at it? Those work perfectly fine.

Viewing videos and that sort of thing, I’ve never run into a problem with that sort of thing on Linux, VLC is present and accounted for, and codecs aren’t the nightmare they were back in the heyday of Windows Media Player.

Affordable we got. Linux and practically the entire software ecosystem are available for free, and Linux will run very well on computers that Windows doesn’t. I’ve got a Dell here from 2012, it’s got an Intel Core i7 with three digits in the part number, it doesn’t run Win11 and feels like shit running Win10, feels brand new running Linux Mint. You don’t need to buy a brand new top of the line machine to get a decent experience out of a typical Linux distro.

You expressed some concerns about not being a programmer. You don’t need to be a programmer to use Linux, at least not this decade. It probably helped in the 90’s. I will say though, one of the biggest advantages of Linux is how close at hand scripting tools like Bash and Python are. For example, I have a script that converts .docx files to .pdf files without launching any applications, and it appears in the right click menu when I right click a .docx file so it’s convenient to run. It’s like a two line bash script with a 7 line config file that’s mostly stuff like what text and icon to put in the right click menu. This doesn’t require a degree in computer science. On any platform, you might want to look at an autokeyer, which can save you a surprising amount of time.

cybersandwich, 1 year ago

I will strongly second the “don’t use an unfamiliar OS for critical work tasks” sentiment.

I got a MacBook for work, before I had ever used mavOS before and it was absolutely infuriating and anxiety inducing because I couldn’t get my actual job done.

The OS was in the way. And it was small simple things. I shit you not trying to just use the “delete” key made me almost throw the MacBook out the window.

captain_aggravated, 1 year ago

And if I may expand upon this, I bet you don’t think this is MacOS being objectively terrible. There are lots of Mac users and they seem to get along with it just fine, and in fact they look at you weird for fussing about it.

I’ve often pointed at an LTT video where they had iJustine on as a guest, and Linus and Justine swapped platforms, him on a Mac and her on a Windows PC, and they were given a series of tasks such as “install Slack. Take a screenshot. Save that screenshot as a PDF. Save that PDF to a thumb drive. Attach it to a Slack message” etc. And both of them hit points where they said “Oh, you’re going to struggle with that.” Apparently the keyboard shortcut to take a screenshot on a Mac makes no intuitive sense, and at least at the time Windows 10 didn’t ship with software capable of saving a word processing document as a PDF. They both struggled, and they both hit things where they thought someone unfamiliar with the platform would struggle.

Just as you will encounter culture shocks transitioning from Windows to MacOS, you will encounter culture shocks transitioning from Windows to Linux. The time to get used to a new OS isn’t when a client needs some important documents right away.

Do not get me wrong, OP. I would love to see your independent law firm running open source software rather than relying on the megacorporate duopoloy. I think you can do it, but I want to be clear that you will likely need retraining and experience in the new platform.

I do strongly encourage trying a distro or three out in VirtualBox, right there on your Windows machine. Give it a look, play around, follow some tutorials, have some fun. Install VLC and LibreOffice on your Windows machine and see if they’ll do the work you need them to. I also strongly encourage you to come tell us how it goes.

electric_nan, 1 year ago

If your budget is tight, get a used/refurb, but recent model Thinkpad (T or P series) from EBay. Install Linux Mint (I say Debian Edition, since that is Mint’s future). It comes with LibreOffice preinstalled. You may want to install standard Microsoft fonts, which aren’t included for licensing reasons. You can search for how do do this.

TrickDacy, 1 year ago

Debian edition? Never heard of this and apparently neither has their website… Is it replacing Ubuntu as the base with Debian?

electric_nan, 1 year ago

www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php

It’s a version of Mint they have been maintaining in case Ubuntu ceases to be a desirable base for the distro. With things like over reliance on Snaps, and advertising paid security updates in the terminal, it seems like it won’t be very long until that point is reached. I love Mint, but dislike those specific aspects it brings from Ubuntu, so I have found LMDE to be the perfect solution.

TrickDacy, 1 year ago

Thanks so much! This is a really cool idea. I may have to try it out sometime

cupcakezealot, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

don’t go all in on linux when you’re already trying to get a new business up and running. it’s stressful enough without relearning an entire new os.

just install linux through virtualbox on top of windows or use a bootable usb/dvd to test drive it before you take the plunge and go all in.

if you really want to, you can install MATE on an amazon linux ec2 instance or get familiar with the command line on a micro sized free tier version.

or, for a more entry friendly approach, just enable wsl2 in windows 11 and get familiar with both gui programs and the command line. it’s not perfect but it will give you a better understanding of the underlyings of linux without having to give up the programs you’re ready for. when you’re comfortable, you can go further.

Yerbouti, 1 year ago

You sound more of a Windows 11 type. Linux is free (free as freedom, not free beer), we dont have to sell you anything.

hottari, 1 year ago

Use whatever software your peers are using, the way they are using them. The importance of software compatibility cannot be overstated.

MimicJar, 1 year ago

This is hugely important. Since Windows is what they use now, I’d start by seeing if any peers are using macOS. See what issues, if any, they have. If you can find someone who uses ChomeOS, ask them too.

Linux will likely have a solution to any sort of compatibility problems, but I imagine folks who have already moved off of Windows will share similar problems.

beta_tester, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

You can just downlaod any linux iso, e.g. fedora fedoraproject.org/workstation/download , and install it in a virtual machine. This way you can play with linux.

You can also write it to an USB and boot from the USB, nothing grts written on any other storagr device and you can test if everything works, check for compatibility, play around and once you’re done, you shut down, remove the USB and your PC is like nothing has happened. Getting to know how to download an iso, write it to usb and boot from it is a common and easy task.

I’ve never heard of a common video format not playing on linux

Sage_the_Lawyer, 1 year ago

This is a great tip, I’ll definitely do some test runs, thanks!

Flaky, 1 year ago

Some old video codecs were proprietary and had to be installed afterwards from a separate repository or package, that might be where that notion is coming from. That being said once the relevant codecs are installed (open-source or proprietary) things just work fine, or you could install VLC or mpv and just call it a day.

astraeus, 1 year ago (edited 1 year ago)

Some legal software only runs on Windows, including some of the proprietary video software used by courts and police departments. There’s a ton of reason they should move towards interoperability in the legal system, but a lot of this software is contract-bound and carries lofty promises of security and privacy.

That being said, I would try to run those on Wine if it’s possible.

das_monk, 1 year ago

If you’re looking for something to buy, look elsewhere… Linux is FREE

Sage_the_Lawyer, 1 year ago

Oh I’m aware the OS is free. The affordability I was asking for was for the actual computer to run it. I guess that part wasn’t Linux-specific. Mostly just looking for a good option for a work computer that will last a while. Will probably just get some kind of refurb laptop, I’ve always had good success with those.

But if someone has a specific recommendation I’m all ears.

UnexploredEnigma, 1 year ago

If you are ever going to bring a Linux machine to display evidence, I would suggest going in and testing beforehand. Should be fine but always anticipate failures is my takeaway

Nyfure, 1 year ago

The Lenovo Business Laptops always were super strong for me.
A bit on the heavy side (at least on the older models), but build like a tank and has an awesome keyboard.
But any halfway decent Laptop will run Linux fine.