I have been distro hopping for about 2 weeks now, there’s always something that doesn’t work. I thought I would stick with Debian and now I haven’t been able to make my printer work in it, I think I tried in another distro and it just worked out of the box, but there’s always something that’s broken in every distro.
I’m sorry I’m just venting, do you people think Ubuntu will work for me? I think I will try it next.
EndeavourOS is pretty good, too; also Arch-based with an easy installer.
The advantage to Arch-based-distros is rolling releases, and the Arch wiki instructions are more easily followed. And right now, the Arch wiki is probably the single best resource for Linux instructions and troubleshooting on the web.
I daily drive endeavour and love it to bits but let’s not recommend it to someone who wants an OS with no fuss. It WILL break and require experience to fix. Remember the grub update fiasco?
A LOT of people’s PCs were bricked, including mine. No boot, just blank screen with blinking cursor. Thankfully Endeavour’s team was quick to react (quicker than Arch, as it happens) and published a full tutorial on how to chroot into your system and downgrade grub, but that already required a good level of knowledge and confidence in the Linux system as none of this was trivial, or intuitive for any stretch of the imagination. I woudl imagine most affected EndeavourOS users who were new-ish to Linux threw the towel that day. Wouldn’t blame them, it was jarring even for me, and it wasn’t my first chroot.
That sounds stressfull! It’d put me off a distro, too. I had something similar happen in the early days of Gentoo - multiple times. Those trials by fire did teach me a lot, and I’m now consequently far more sanguine about the boot process, and thank god these days we have smart phones as mini-backup computers to search for solutions! Still, we’re in a time when PCs are not as indispensible, and having one down for a couple days can be a minor disaster.
Rolling updates or no, I rarely -Syu on my desktop more than once a week, and most of my machines get that TLC more like monthly. And sometimes I’ll hold out packages that require rebooting, because FTN. It probably contributes to the fact I’ve avoided these types of dramas --statistically.
Yeop, you can say that again. Can’t read the Arch wiki on a Nokia 3310 for sure lol
Tbh I’m not too careful about updates, I have regular backups and grub exploding wasn’t enough to stop me, so eeeeh, if something really goes awfully wrong I have enough free time to deal with it and use it as a learning experience. I know I should be smarter about them like you are, but on my personal computer I just cannot be asked. ^^
I know I should be smarter about them like you are
TIL being lazy is “smart”.
Nokia 3310!! Those were the days. When you had drive over to your hosting provider (some guy’s garage, who was paying for a T1) so you could sit at your server (a tower you’d built) to fix something that an upgrade had broken. Those experiences with dependency hell put me off Redhat forever.
Edit2: Honestly, I daily drove Fedora for years, didn’t do a clean install from fedora 13 through 25 and it worked like a charm. I guess they improved wildly since your Redhat days!
Are you updating with eos-update, or yay? TBH, I only use yay, or pacman. I don’t imagine it makes any difference, but… IDK. I happened to upgrade and reboot two EOS machine yesterday, with again no issues. Are you running an NVidia card? I’m an Radeon guy, won’t touch NVidia, myself. How about Wayland? I’ve alwayw found Wayland to be super flakey, which keeps me on X.
I dunno. I wonder why you’re having so many issues, while for me EOS has just been Arch with an easier install.
Mostly using eos-update by clicking on the notification, unless I’m on a terminal where I still have the yay reflex from arch. I should remember to use eos-update though, I do appreciate the extra housekeeping.
Nop, I avoid nvidia as much as I can as well, I already can’t avoid it at work, too much driver drama. Ryzen and radeon it is, with (almost) no fuss.
Also mostly using wayland, it works well even on KDE, but got Xorg around just in case, and I’ve had the occasional issue on both. That being said, it’s plymouth that blows up, long before the graphical session is opened, so that shouldn’t have an influence either.
Maybe I’m just a black cat, and/or maybe it just comes with the territory when you stay long enough on a bleeding-edge-use-at-your-own-risk kinda distro and update almost every day. Something’s bound to go wrong eventually. Which, has also “been Arch with an easier install” for me, tbf.
Gonna investigate a bit more today, couldn’t be asked yesterday. But if you’re curious I can keep you updated when I find a fix. :)
Edit: Found the solution by essentially doing the same thing the folks on reddit did with nvidia by enabling early KMS start, and learning quite a bit along the way. Apparently it’s now required by Plymouth and my system didn’t get the memo? Or something? Eh it works.
Ah. K, I think the differrence is that I’m the outlier. Your system has far larger components, with more moving parts, which I think is more common:
On most of my systems, I’m not running any graphical system; they’re all servers. That eliminates a huge amount of stack that can fail. On all but non-servers I run X, which is very stable (in that upgrades almost never impact it) on non-Nvidia GPUs. And of those, all but one run herbstluftwm - Gnome and KDE are both large systems with a lot of moving parts, any of which can break (or be broken) – in your case, it was Plasma, a KDE component. And the last desktop is running Budgie which, while still Gnome, is a lighter one based on the older GTK3. All of these things tend to make for more stable systems.
But, most people are probably running fancier, full desktop software. Larger, more complex, more development, more frequent changes. And, consequently, more prone to cascading packaging breakages, like the Plasma one.
I think if I were using software like that, I’d consider either giving up Arch and using an immutable distro, or using something like snapper or timeshift that allows boot-time system roll-backs.
Ah no no, maybe I was unclear, but the issue occurs during the initramfs stage, long before any of my KDE/Plasma nonsense had any chance to run! KMS has nothing to do with KDE. ^^
Oh, that plasma. Yeah, that naming conflict is totally not confusing.
You could switch all your repos to the core Arch ones. I did that by accident once, and it was fine (although, I did switch them back eventually). Maybe it’d add release stability? I’m not really clear how the EOS repos vary off the baseline, except by adding some custom packages.
Inspired by our discussion, I installed snapper on two boxen. I included snap-pac and snapper-support to get system change and grub integration; there’s probably also a utility out there that adds visudo-like snapshot-before-manual-edit of anything in /etc. If not, it’d be an easy script. snapper-gui and btrfs-assistant both look useful. While I’m comfortable with rescue SDs and restic backups, what I’m seeing with Arch’s snapper package is pretty nice, and super easy.
I suppose anything that borks grub is going to be a PITA no matter how immutable your OS, or how fancy your rollback. Or - god forbid - fucks up your BIOS firmware. I have never had that last happen, yet (knock on wood).
You could switch all your repos to the core Arch ones. I did that by accident once, and it was fine (although, I did switch them back eventually). Maybe it’d add release stability? I’m not really clear how the EOS repos vary off the baseline, except by adding some custom packages.
They don’t afaik. EOS uses Arch’s repos directly, unlike Manjaro. Just adds its own on top for all the fancy EOS stuff. Which is why EOS was immediately affected by the grub meltdown and not Manjaro. (which kinda digs a few holes in the stability hypothesis, though Manjaro is another kettle of fish tbf)
Snapper sounds really interesting, and I didn’t expect “super easy” to be the feedback there. Sounds a bit overkill for my use case at home but I might look into it for work. Thanks for the info!
Oh god a borked BIOS is my nightmare… I don’t even know how you’d go about fixing that on a modern PC mobo… Let’s not jinx it shall we?
If I remember correctly I liked manjaro and endeavor when I tried them, but the “night color” feature which is very important to me wouldn’t work Idk why.
does night light actually work? I used them for a while, turned it off for color and I didn’t notice a difference. Isn’t it just placibo or just very minimal effect?
Ubuntu will work, sticking to Ubuntu based system is good to have stuff just work. For Gnome UI just use Ubuntu, for KDE use Kubuntu.
If you don’t like Ubuntu as a company you can always use these instead: PopOS for Gnome and KDE Neon for KDE. Both are very stable with great support. I’ve been running KDE Neon for years now.
Hi, I tried endeavor, Linux mint, manjaro, mx Linux, and I don’t remember what else. I have a question, is Gnome really popular? For me it doesn’t make sense, it feels it was made for tablets or something like that.
Absolutely, it’s very popular. It’s pretty similar to MacOS since it comes with a global menu by default. It’s pretty popular since the design is very consistent and looks good. They also have excellent support for new features (except Wayland). Gnome is popular with people that only want to customise the most important ports and just want a standard OS that is well thought out and accessible.
I do watch a lot of content about Linux distros, but I’m not a Gnome user so I can’t give good examples of customisation and differences between KDE and Gnome.
Btw, can replicate the same layout on KDE because of the high level of customization it provides. It can all done through the UI, as all OS changes should be done.
My current work forces me to work with Apple (because they are lazy to prepare Linux for working), I have been on Linux for almost 10 years and I really want to quit my Job because of this stupid Apple laptop, it is trash, the DE is stupid, and I have many issues (with settings, login items, alacritty not working… yabai stopped to work without any reason…) that stresses me a lot… So good, I love my work and I still enjoy working, but the macOS is pure trash.
I was in the same boat but Linux Mint just literally worked. Easiest transition ever. I keep my Windows dual boot because I need MS Office for work but I’m in mint 95% of the time with no tinkering.
You can always try Linux risk free in a virtual machine like VirtualBox.
If you like what you see, and you have any valuable data backed-up, you can try dual booting. That way you get to use Linux as your primary operating system, but can switch back and forth as much as needed.
I found I was dual booting Windows and Linux for over 3 years before I was comfortable enough to stop using Windows entirely. Switching to Linux doesn’t have to be an all-or-nothing approach. You can take it as slow as you want.
You will get tons of distro recommendations, so here is one more: OpenSUSE, then use the YAST GUI GTK application select Yast Printer it has a GUI tool for all kinds of printer setup options and will show recommended drivers based on printer type, it then installs them via that GUI. Not to be confused with the regular printer settings app you see in most distros.
How long ago? Everyone has an opinion and preference, but SUSE and RHEL are the only two certifed distros for corporate/ enterprise use of Teamcenter PLM and NX CAD…so it cannot be as “badly” built as you feel it is because it has to perform everyday with the least amount of issues.
I honestly believe Red Hat has a policy that everything should pull in Gnome. I have had headless RHEL installs and half the CLI tools require Gnome Keyring (even if they don't deal with secrets or store any). Back in RHEL 7, Kate the KDE based Text Editor pulled in a bunch of GTK dependencies somehow.
Certification is really someone paid to go through a process and so its designed so they pass.
Think about the people you know who are Agile/Cloud/whatever certified and how all it means is they have learnt the basic examples.
Its no different when a business gets certified.
The only reason people care is because they can point to the cert if it all goes wrong
I wrote a long reply but looks like posting it glitched. I’ll try shortening. I should have noted that the Certification on SUSE and RHEL, is also a certification compatibility matrix. distro ver to software ver, and Siemens needs stable Windows, SUSE, RHEL releases to code to. Trying to install/running on other distros fails in many areas (even with an experiences guru trying fixes). They have a symbiotic relationahip with those curated distros to ensure it doesnt give downtime to a large enterprise. It is not just a piece of paper saying yes we tested the software install here is your signoff. Personally I did get it running on OpenSUSE for obvious reasons.
Limiting support of software to specific software configurations makes sense.
Its stuff like Debian might be using Python 3.8 Ubuntu Python 3.9, OpenSuse Python 3.9, etc.. Your application might use a Python 3.9 requiring library and act odd on 3.8 but fine on 3.7, etc.. so only supporting X distributions let you make the test/QA process sane.
This is also why Docker/Flatpack exist since you can define all of this.
However the normal mix is RHEL/Suse/Ubuntu because those target businesses and your target market will most likely be running one.
Yeah it is a Known Known and those 3 distros have tried and true reliability. The term certified is what they call it “Certified to run on X” and “Compatibility CertifIcation” it was in response to OP asking if linux is used in corporate world. It is, and for larger operations it is the 3 you mention. Personally I think Ubuntu hasn’t made it into the Corporate Desktop apps like SUSE/REL because you install it and have a hairy hippo or faceted cougar head as the backdrop, just doesn’t sit well with CEO stuffed shirt types when looking for a professional software.
There are two more I’d reccomend as its what my family and friends have been using and have ran into literally, zero issues.
Linux mint (specifically cinnamon edition) is very stable, and customizable if you’re into that sorta thing, you can install custom kernels and get greatly improved performance out of gaming if thats your thing. It’s built off of Ubuntu (but just better) so there’s great support for it, especially with devices such as printers.
Fedora Kinoite is a solid, also well supported, immutable distribution which will either make your life easier, or more difficult.
Immutable means you can’t change anything in your root directory, so basically your “C: Drive”. You still have a regular file system and can install all your apps, but the operating system stays the same as everyone else’s and is something that by design, never breaks and “just works”, and is what I personally use.
Pop_OS is definitely another option if you have “newer” hardware and Linux Mint doesn’t work for you and you don’t like the immutability of Fedora Kinoite (you can always try regular Fedora KDE). But I’d personally reccomend just the first two. But Pop is also built off of Ubuntu, so you still get that great hardware support.
But please, avoid stock Ubuntu. Ubuntu has far gone away from being a beginner, “just works” distro.
Hope this helped! Please reply or message me if you have any issues or are confused, or you can always ask for some more help within this community as well!
(Looks at laptop I’m using to reply to this that’s running Debian)
Server OS? Debian? Yes it is, but it’s also a Desktop and Laptop OS and many other things. Everything on this HP laptop just worked, including the function buttons. There’s a reason it’s such a well used distro, and it’s not just because it’s good for servers.
I never said it can’t work, but try using MX for a bit and tell me it doesn’t make Debian much better as a workstation. MX tools are enough of a reason for me to always pick it over Debian in that scenario.
There’s a reason it’s such a well used distro, and it’s not just because it’s good for servers.
What are some workstation specific reasons it’s well used?
I’m pretty sure stuff like function keys are just DE defaults. I’ve installed default gnome and they worked.
The main reason people use Debian, no matter what they use it for, is stability. While it’s great that nothing ever breaks, you’re also receiving nonessential updates every ~2 years.
That’s not an issue on a server that’s running mysql released 7 years ago, but you probably need to use flatpak and guix to keep specific tools relatively up to date. You’re less likely going to need those tools when using a workstation focused distro like Fedora, that’s released on a fixed 6 month cycle.
On top of that, workstation focused distros also integrate flatpak. Since synaptic only knows about apt, MX improves on it by only requiring you to enable flathub as a source to get a unified search/install/update.
Small stuff like that is important for a beginner that’s asking for distro advice. They’ll most likely want to click through a pretty gui, and Debian is lacking on that front because it’s a server focused distro.
There is not a single distro where everything works out of the box. I would be very surprised if even Windows or MacOS work exactly like you expect, the second you boot into them the first time.
I like Arch / EndeavourOS, but you will definitely need quiet some configuration for them. If you want more user-friendly or more up-to-date Debian, try Sparky Linux. It’s honestly quite good. Instead of Ubuntu you might want to give Mint a try. Many fancy it as a more open and less corpo alternative.
Ubuntu itself is alright, but it’s being criticised for pushing anti-consumer moves lately (i.e. forcing Snaps and telemetry onto them). Also, updates on Ubuntu are extremely slow in my experience. Maybe that has changed, but in some areas I doubt it.
That is absolutely not true, Ubuntu has been a lot more out of the box experience for almost 2 decades. Thing is people are already familiar on how to do things on Windows, and most laptops already come with windows and drivers pre installed. Windows 10 was the first version to have a driver manager that could find the correct drivers for you, still you need to waste a few hours and reboots to get all of the drivers and updates.
As a very casual user, I can say that windows has intuitive solutions to issues that may arise. At least there are some things users can try by just using logic.
In Linux, solving issues requires you to type in the Romanian national anthem backwards, speperated by ; and the ocational “sudo” and “apt get”
If you tried to stumble your way around the UI on Linux you’ll probably find very similar UI paths to solve any issue. The thing is that Linux has several different UIs so when you ask in a forum it’s easier to give you the UI-agnostic solution. Let’s take a common issue with an apparent arcane solution, e.g. change your screen positions. On windows you do this by going start > settings > system > display and adjust them there, on Linux you’ll get given an xrandr command like xrandr --output HDMI-0 --left-of DP-2, but on KDE you go start > system settings > display and monitor and adjust them there, but because you might be using Gnome, Lxde, XFCE, Mate, etc (all of which have a very similarly intuitive path to adjust this) it’s easier to give you a command that does it.
For the first several years I used Linux I almost didn’t touched the terminal, and that was a long time ago so it’s not that it’s not possible or recent, it’s just that because windows has only a single graphical interface you get answers for it, but if you ask things on generic Linux forums you’ll get generic Linux responses, if you had to do things without asking anyone online they’re very much the same.
There is not a single distro where everything works out of the box.
On the other hand, if hardware manufacturers or software developers test their products with one Linux distribution, it will be Ubuntu. So that’s generally the safest bet - and that’s coming from someone who doesn’t use Ubuntu.
I have an epson L4260, I downloaded a driver that was supposedly for Debian, it was a .deb file that I installed but nothing happened, I added the printer but it just wouldn’t print.
I’m just taking a guess here but is the .deb you installed a program you have to run to do the setup? My one printer I had to run a program to start scanning every time.
Naah I think it’s super useful to know a bit about all popular distros. This makes you able to actually take part in conversations about what distro to pick for example.
I’ve ran them all at some point in my life, which makes me able to understand that it’s not just “different package manager” as some people say.
I mean, people say that, but for me it wasn’t a problem, I just picked one when I got started. Didn’t feel like a major decision since you can just switch again if you are unhappy.
I feel ya. I was the same way. They said don’t distro hop so that was the first thing I did 🤣 I guess the thing with a lot other people is they are used to the thing that “just works” (whatever the fuck that means).
For them, I just tell them use PopOS. Good distro. Little fuss. Maintained by a company with interest in keeping it going.
That said, I’m teaching a class this afternoon to CS majors and the first thing I’m having them do is install Arch in a vm 😉
Why would you use Debian, it has the oldest packages and kernel of all distros. I would maybe run that on a server, but probably just use Ubuntu LTS instead.
For desktop you should try Pop OS. Really good distro from System 76.
Stay away from Ubuntu, it’s very buggy for desktop. I tried it six months ago, fresh install, and the console app wouldn’t even open on a fresh install. No error message, just didn’t open. Great impression…
Care to explain how you come to your harsh judgment of Debian? I’m not a fan of using it as a desktop OS either, but every other day you hear people talking about Debian having newer packages than Arch on occasion. If anything, Debian, Arch, Fedora and derivatives should give you the most recent packages.
I don’t know which people you are listening to, but Debian does not have newer packages than arch. It has older packages than almost all other distros. You can see this on distrowatch for yourself also.
The idea of Debian is that old = stable, which I don’t agree with personally. As an example, users of Debian are reporting tons of KDE Plasma bugs that was already fixed, but because they are running an ancient version, they still have the bugs.
But it depends. It’s correct that new versions of plasma had new bugs, that was fixed in the coming weeks or months.
I guess a better way of describing Debian is that it has old bugs instead of new ones, since it stays on older versions.
Debian has an effective Rolling distribution through testing than can get ahead of Arch.
At some point they freeze the software versions in testing and look for Release Critical and Major bugs. Once they have shaken everything and submitted fixes where possible. It then becomes stable.
The idea is people have tested a set baseline of software and there are no known major bugs.
For the 4-5 releases Debian has released every 2 years (Similar to Ubuntu LTS). Debian tends to align its release with LTS Kernel and Mesa releases so there have been times the latest stable is running newer versions than Ubuntu and the newest software crown switches between Ubuntu LTS and Debian each year.
For some the priority to run software that won't have major bugs, that is what Debian, Ubuntu LTS and RHEL offer.
Debian has an effective Rolling distribution through testing than can get ahead of Arch.
I wouldn’t call a distro “branch” where maintainers say “don’t use this, it’s not officially supported and may even be insecure” an “effective” distribution. I’d consider it a test bed.
Debian tends to align its release with LTS Kernel and Mesa releases so there have been times the latest stable is running newer versions than Ubuntu
Ubuntu LTS.
Ubuntu’s regular channel releases every 6 months, similar to Fedora or NixOS. That in itself is already a “stable” distro, just not long-time stable (LTS).
So Debian can for a short span of time after release be about as fresh as stable distros which is …kinda obvious? I would not consider a month or so every 2 years to be significant to even mention though, especially if you consider that Debian users aren’t the kind to jump onto a new release early on.
For some the priority to run software that won’t have major bugs, that is what Debian, Ubuntu LTS and RHEL offer.
That’s not the point of those distros at all. The point is to have the same features aswell as bugs for longer periods of time. This is because some functionality the user wants could depend on such bugs/unintended behaviour to be present.
The fact that huge regressions have to be weeded out more carefully before release in LTS is obvious if you know that it’d be expected for those “bugs” to remain present throughout the release’s support window.
As an example, users of Debian are reporting tons of KDE Plasma bugs that was already fixed, but because they are running an ancient version, they still have the bugs.
The idea is that those bug fixes would be backported as patches; old feature version + new security/bug fixes.
In practice, that’s really expensive to do, so often times bug fixes simply aren’t backported and I don’t even want to know the story of security fixes though I’d hope they do better there.
I’ve been using Linux for 10y and never distro-hopped to solve a problem. Overall I’ve only used 3 distros as daily drivers. IMO you should look into making things work with a distro you like instead of looking for the perfect off the shelf distro.
To build off of the above poster, some things sometimes take some tweaking to make work. When you distro hop you’re really just hopping to a different set of defaults and maybe a few relevant library differences. Learning what to do and how to do it can be daunting but when you get it its brilliant and then you have some idea what you need to do the next time you encounter a similar issue
I second EndeavourOS. Nothing beats the arch wiki and arch user repository, and combining that with the easy and sane install of EndeavourOS makes it an almost perfect distro.
For first time plug-n-play distros, I either go with Linux Mint or Fedora, for me they have the best results for just working.
And make sure when installing them, you always check to use proprietary drivers and codecs if it’s an option, that will save you a bunch of trouble down the line.
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