I thought this until I actually tried windows, it just doesn’t work right ever and feels so weird and old. I wouldn’t use macos, but it’s fine, it feels competently made and for the most part makes sense.
Yes, Windows feels old but at least is usable (10 was more usable that 11 in my opinion). MacOS feels very janky to me and you have to jump to various hoops to do basic things
There are plenty of developers who use macs for work, me included. I mainly go with Mac for the build quality/battery life/performance though and also because my work pays for it so I don’t need to worry about the exorbitant price. I would agree that MacOS is pretty janky at times and it requires a few third party apps to be reasonable usable.
But I’m not really sure what you mean by useful bits? I don’t feel like I’m really restricted in MacOS. If there isn’t a UI element for something, you can probably adjust it in a terminal.
Generally, yes. I like MacOS more than windows because it’s at least *nix.
But to be honest I have no strong opinions on OS when it comes to work. I’ve used windows*/Linux/MacOS and none have stood out as far superior to get my work done faster or more efficiently.
I use MacOS with my Mac because that’s what’s installed out of the box.
The main things that seem to hold me back from working efficiently are programs that are required by the company to maintain their ISO accreditation like Microsoft “intune” or what ever it’s called.
It is true though, developers use macs because they give you a useful unixy environment but Apple do try to keep that hidden because the people they actually market the devices to are the casual users. I find myself constantly fighting with macOS because it has decided that things must be done The Apple Way and I have to go to the forums to find out where they’re hiding the features. Obviously I’m not going to use Windows for a dev environment (I’m not a masochist), but it’s a shame that most companies can’t be bothered supporting a Linux desktop environment.
I work in IT and i’d wager that 95+% of MacOS users don’t know how to find their Library folder or how to view other hidden directories. Keychain Access is also an unnecessarily convoluted system to use as a desktop password manager. The System Settings layout is also not intuitive (not that System Preferences was much better). And although MacOS is a *nix system, there have been plenty of times where I’ve had to Google certain commands to fix things that are different than on Linux.
Windows for Dev is very common actually. And not just for .Net based stuff. Many devs that I know work on Windows. I used all three OS for Dev and I don’t know why Windows is always listed as a nightmare. Maybe fifteen years ago but not now.
It’s not true in the slightest. Terminal is an app that comes on every Mac and is shown in the Launchpad and Applications folders. It’s not hidden at all.
It’s not finding the terminal, it’s finding that you need to install xcode separately to configure or run things, or install brew for a proper package manager, or install third party tools to do basic actions like move windows around with keyboard shortcuts. It’s the “our way or the highway” attitude which drives a lot of how they design their software.
This is just a clever safety feature so that those that don’t need it don’t accidentally mess around with things, if they’re curious they can look up what it does.
No one who would use the terminal would need to find the terminal. It automatically prompts you to install Xcode whenever you try to install a package that requires it through terminal. A “proper” package manager is a nonsense distinction and it’s literally one terminal command similar to any Linux distro that doesn’t include it. The same applies to window management. That all depends on the distro you pick and whether it does what you want out of the box. You’re either being disingenuous or you’re ignorant to how variable Linux actually is.
I don’t mean this in an accusatory way, but did you create your account just to talk up macs? I know some people really love them, but plenty of people have serious issues with Apple’s entire philosophy. The “our way or the highway” idea is great if you want to do everything their way but when that way doesn’t work for what you want to do then that’s what rubs people the wrong way.
You can’t always just not use it, a lot of people get given macs as work machines. And having had macos updates break software compatibility multiple times I would not say “a very stable system”!
I think the recent line of MacBook Pros (M1 and onward) clearly have a focus on the professional segment - stopping the focus on very thin computers, touch bars instead of function keys and USB C ports only.
There’s definitely a disconnect between hardware and software. I quite like the hardware and like you say it’s definitely appropriate for the serious user. The OS that updates, changes my settings, and shouts about new emoji reaction features? Not so much!
I personally love those features as a developer, I don’t need every type of port pretty much just one would be enough in a perfect world we would use wireless to interface all peripherals and media items like cameras
I use Windows and Mac but I would think that Mac is slightly better. Just because I got this privacy statement off them once where they said they will do as much processing locally as they can, rather than sending it off to the cloud to be processed. I just appreciate that they acknowledge that.
Also, Windows has just swapped to a new default email app that requires I sync my email with their own servers. They can fuck off with that.
In what way is macOS more closed than Windows? The kernel is open source, the app store and cloud stuff is entirely optional, and it runs most Unix-y stuff natively.
In the ability to legally and without hassle install it on random PCs.
The kernel is open source
The actual userland is proprietary in both cases. Opening Apple Terminal on macOS and using homebrew is as “open” as running Windows Terminal with WSL: Basically the things in the terminal are FOSS, the graphical surroundings of both systems aren’t.
Having used both, I don’t find WSL comparable to macOS’s native unix shell. Aside from the bloat of it, integration with the rest of the OS is troublesome on Windows, and WSL apps are second-class citizens. On macOS, there is no “rest of the OS” because the unix shell is fundamental. It’s not running in a virtual environment like WSL; it is the native environment.
the WSL 2 architecture uses virtualized networking components, which means that WSL 2 will behave similarly to a virtual machine – WSL 2 distributions will have a different IP address than the host machine (Windows OS).
As of right now WSL 2 does not include serial support, or USB device support
If you have no open file handles to Windows processes, the WSL VM will automatically be shut down. This means if you are using it as a web server, SSH into it to run your server and then exit, the VM could shut down because it is detecting that users are finished using it and will clean up its resources.
WSL is a great addition to Windows, but it’s still kind of a band-aid.
Having used both, I don’t find WSL comparable to macOS’s native unix shell.
I use Windows with openSUSE WSL, macOS with homebrew and “real” Linux.
Aside from the bloat of it
Which bloat? It’s just a regular terminal.
WSL 2 will behave similarly to a virtual machine
That’s not so much different from a sanboxed environment on native Linux where a Flatpak application can request file system access but not touch processes outside its sandbox. If anything, I prefer that I have all my regular openSUSE thingies (zypper, my own Build Service repository,…) available unmodified on Windows, whereas the macOS terminal (and I know that’s subjective) just feels off.
It’s a virtual environment that requires installation of an entire Linux system. The disk and memory usage is not comparable to a native Unix OS.
Everything uses some sort of “virtual environment” these days. It’s not bloat, it’s the norm. homebrew does not use native macOS libraries except the very low level stuff. It handles its own dependencies. “Regular” macOS applications usually bundle their dependencies inside the .app folder bundle. On Linux, Flatpak installs its own dependencies. Heck, for whatever reason the Bazzite maintainers decided that installing Steam within a Arch Linux distrobox container is somehow preferable to the alternatives and Steam on Linux in turn uses “virtual environments” because the various Steam Linux Runtimes are specialized Ubuntu and Debian environments and every version of Proton is its own “virtual environment” of Windows.
I’ve bought a notebook almost exactly 10 years ago for €629 that had a 1TB hard drive and that I’ve upgraded to 16 or 24GB RAM for relatively little money (IIRC around €100). Sure, if you look at the insane prices that Apple asks for even a pathetic 8GB RAM / 256 GB SSD entry level MacBook, you surely want to avoid “bloat” but for many people in the regular x86 PC world a few “virtual environments” here and there don’t make a difference and aren’t considered bloat at all. If anything, for WSL users being able to run most unmodified Linux binaries is a benefit over relying on crappy ports of GTK to macOS and such because those ports of Linux software to macOS integrates so well…
I disagree with the characterization of Homebrew as a “virtual environment”. It installs binaries and libraries in its own directory and by default adds those directories to your PATH. This makes them first-class entities on macOS. Unlike with WSL, there is no secondary kernel and no hypervisor. Everything runs natively within the macOS environment. There’s no bridge, no virtualizer, not even sandboxing with Homebrew or MacPorts. Homebrew and MacPorts do not install “Linux” software; they install Mac software.
As a real-world example, I can install newer versions of standard tools like openssl and kerberos5 via MacPorts or Homebrew, and native Mac apps that rely on those pick them up seamlessly. I don’t think that is realistic with WSL, if even possible.
I haven’t re-evaluated a lot of development stuff since the release of WSL2, so perhaps things are smoother now, but in WSL1 I found there to be a big disconnect between e.g. a Windows-native installation of Spyder and a WSL-based Python environment. If there is a way to set that up, rather than installing Spyder within WSL and wrestling with X11 to run it as a second-class GUI, I’d love to hear it.
From what I have gathered online, it seems like most people believe that macOS is (slightly) more private than Windows. macOSshow you detailed characterization of the telemetry, and you can turn most of it it off; whereas you cannot turn off basic telemetry in Windows.
I cannot verify this claim, since I never owned an apple product.
That being said, if I have to use a closed-source OS, I would probably choice window, since I am more familiar with it and it is (slightly) more open than macOS.
You can shut down all telemetry in Windows Pro/Enterprise, I believe. You probably could with regular, too, especially if you’re blocking all Microsoft domains via DNS, firewall, or other methods.
and you can turn most of it it off; whereas you cannot turn off basic telemetry in Windows.
If only most telemetry can be turned off on macOS, it retains some basic telemetry that cannot be turned off. How is that better than basic telemetry on Windows?
Yeah. I was literally just talking about how my SteamDeck is going to let me retire my remaining Windows PC. And by retire it, I mean install Linux, and continue to enjoy it.
Not that I condone that notification, as I equally hate it too, but if you right-click it, you can tell Windows to never show those notifications ever again. I haven’t gotten one since doing that.
It’s still shitty, nonetheless, and I still fucking hate Windows. Only use it because I have to for work and gaming, for the most part.
I suspect they allowed notifications from some application. When I installed 11 I did it with the offline/local account login instead of the Microsoft account and skipped activation with all optional “features” disabled, then on first login immediately installed Firefox as default, and then disabled telemetry, tracking, targeted ads, location settings, updates, Defender, crash reporting, phoning home, and all unused devices and services that are turned on by default that I don’t use. It’s a shame those are the defaults but I have no complaints about Windows performance after that.
But I finally got speedy with i3 keyboard shortcuts and my games all work great on Linux (perfunctory “btw I use Arch”), so now the only use I have for Windows is in VirtualBox to run ShareMouse until I can find a linux <-> macos KVM alternative that doesn’t require sudo on macos (rip input-leap).
I’m also surprised that people see this kind of ads: I haven’t seen any since I removed Outlook free (after Windows prompted me to switch because the older UWP Mail app was being retired). I’m always surprised when people complain about the number of ads they get in Windows.
But that’s not the point: the point is no paid software should contain any ad.
Gaming on Linux is pretty legit now. I don’t even boot into windows very often. In recent memory, only one AAA game didn’t work out of the box for me that required booting into windows.
Same here. Linux just need rolling gameplay recording and better controller support (steering wheels for one) and for me it’d be set. I know Decky has it for the Steam Deck but I haven’t seen one for desktop that works fine on Wayland.
Have a rather „expensive“ sim racing rig and would love to switch over to Linux again. But it’s simply a niche in a niche so I don’t expect any surprises in the near future. Too bad
Yeah, sim racing is very much left out in the Linux world, if not pretty janky. Virtual reality isn’t doing too hot here either, Valve just announced Steam Link for the Oculus headsets, and right now it’s Windows only.
TBF I haven’t actually tried Asetto Corsa with my steering wheel, or XPlane with my VR headset on Linux yet I just assumed it wouldn’t work. As soon as they do, I can’t wait to shitcan Windows forever.
I’ve tried Euro Truck Sim 2 with my G29, which was built for PlayStation but can work on PC with drivers on both Windows and Linux. On Linux, PS4 mode doesn’t work on Linux, but PS3 mode does - the main thing is you lose the speed indicators on your wheel, if you really want them speed lights you’ll have to go Windows and install G HUB.
Some say PS3 mode disables clutch support since that was the case when using it on a PS3 but IDK if this is the case on PC and specifically Linux. Cursory search points towards no.
That’s useful to know that it at least mostly works. I should really try it out with my Thrustmaster T300, I could be pleasantly surprised. I use an Oculus Quest 2 headset, which requires Meta’s app to run on Windows, so not sure how that would pan out.
If I could one day be playing BeamNG, with my FFB wheel, in VR, on Linux - I will have truly attained nirvana.
So far black desert online is the only game that I’ve wanted to play that I can’t on Linux (eac is awful). I know there are others, but it’s mainly fps games that bother with windows-only eac and I don’t play fps games all that much. Battlebit is probably the only fps I’ve been playing in the past few months, and they use/will be using a linux-compatible eac version which I’m jazzed about
Actually, EAC has a Proton-compatible build, the devs just have to use it. It’s not a hard switch, they just have to choose to allow Linux compatibility, which most devs (well, really it’s probably an exec level decision) do not.
Really sucks because older games will likely never get this. Looking at ones like Ghost Recon Wildlands. I do not care for the newer release but was excited to play Wildlands with my brother from my Steam Deck.
Game loaded just fine into the world and then I got kicked within a few seconds with a EAC error.
In black desert’s case, there’s no chance they would ever allow anyone to play without a kernel anti cheat, which EAC doesn’t allow on linux. The game is literally all grind, if bots could run on linux it would absolutely ravage the already shit economy.
From the controversy around battlebit using eac, apparently the eac version that is just a checkmark for proton/Linux support is not a drop in replacement for the regular one that is more popular. The one with that option would require a lot of refactoring code, and doesn’t have all of the features of the main eac unfortunately.
Linux > windows 10 > Windows 11 > MacOS is my experience, I just can’t stand apple and their walled gardens. I hate that they try to force me to use their shitty cloud and prevent me from installing third party apps. Windows 11 hhurts my eyes. And as a W10 refugee that’s gotten used to linux, I think its tolarable
In my experience, win 8.1 < win 10: less CPU and ram hogging, less telemetry, and overall less frustration. Although, yeah, you’d have to replace metro crap with something less tablet-oriented.
Well, duh. Kinda funny how windows server is a better desktop windows than a regular windows. Basically, you get less candy_crush-like crap plus only security updates, as far as I remember. But yeah, there are different unnecessary features (unless you’re in the corporate environment, ofc)
Although, I’m not really sure nowadays since I haven’t used windows for a few years 😅
Honestly you can use a Mac perfectly well without ever signing into iCloud + you don’t get prompted to sign in ever really unless you click on a feature that requires iCloud like the iCloud tab in settings.
You can even use the apps like mail without ever signing into iCloud.
I’m an Android fan, but I do like the walled garden for iPhones. There are so many people who just do not understand how to protect their privacy online, and phones are a treasure trove of personal information. I’ve no doubt that the tight controls on iOS have saved many people from identity theft due to their own negligence. That, combined with the ease of use and the superior accessibility features over Android makes iPhone the better choice for older generations who don’t understand technology as well.
I would agree that a reasonably locked down device helps certain audiences stay secure, but to me that always sounds like a convenient excuse. Surely they could at least implement some way to regain control, even if that meant having to unlock the boot-loader and flashing the device, which is not something your average person would/could do.
Seriously, if Apple decides an app is too old, then it flat out doesn’t work. No way to prevent updating either unless it is basically without internet.
Linuxians like to complain about not being able to control Windows, but Mac is like a hundred times worse in that regard. Not to mention ads to all those Apple software on there.
Does Windows still allow your applications to function update after update if you decide to stick with Windows 10? Yes. Can you just stay on W10 and expect things to keep working? Also yes.
I don’t have to worry about the newest version of Adobe Premiere not being compatible with this older version of iOS, oops now our promo team and our production team aren’t able to share their files because one bought newer Macs and now has an upgraded version of Adobe that Catalina doesn’t support unless you also buy new machines that are allowed to update through to Monterey.
Apple is fine for home use, but as someone who works operations side IT and has to constantly perform network workarounds to get their equipment functional in a commercial environment, fuck Apple and their “We did the thinking for you uwu™️” nonsense.
And OMG, Apples business support is absolute horse shit
Device management? Good fucking luck. Setting up iOS device management is by far the most painful, migraine inducing, poorly thought out, full of the most asinine restrictions process I’ve ever seen in my life.
Setting up Oracle on-prem software is a cake walk compared to Apples shit.
Windows is a business OS with consumer features, MacOS is a consumer OS with business (poorly executed) “features”
They update Macs for a good 8 years or so, which isn’t that bad really. Then you can often just install newer versions with community tools after that.
Edit: I haven’t had one in a few years, apparently that’s not quite true recently as they’re trying to drop x86 support and move everything to ARM
That’s more of an architecture shift as opposed to we don’t support it because fuck you, also Rosetta means most x86 Mac apps will be able to run on the m-series chips.
This. Been using Windows since 95 and Linux since 2008. Mac is the only thing I tried twice (for two years each) and I just cannot get past this mobile-feeling of not being able to customise basic stuff. Mac GUI is not intuitive for me. It’s good that people that like it can use it. It’s bad that I don’t have any choice as soon as I am on Apple hardware. I find this meme completely tone deaf. The issue with mac isn’t that it lacks Unix features, it’s everything else.
Yeah I think most people have experienced an iPad or iPhone but not a Mac so they assume it’s the same walled garden. What they don’t realise is Mac has been a solid choice for power users, developers and creators of all varieties for over 10 years, this means the community and app selection is honestly ridiculously good.
The only place I’ve ever seen ads on my MacBook is in the App Store, the iCloud section of settings and on Apple’s website, all of which it makes sense for the adverts to exist. Oh wait I may have seen one as a precursor to a YouTube video but sans ad-blocker that is standing regards of OS.
I much prefer Windows to MacOS. The fact it is missing decent tiling is a nonstarter. It’s too inflexible for my workflow.
And sure, Windows can be maddeningly inconsistent, but what really destroys the experience is the constant ensh*ttification. I know a lot of people here hate everything about Windows, but for me, it only sucks because Microsoft designs it to suck.
Not only are there ads and (some) first party lockin, I cannot trust they will continue offering updates, paywall feaures, restrict more functionality, or insert stuff like AI to mess up my workflow.
I used to think reliability was just about stability and bugginess, but now I think it is about trust as well.
Another good one is Magnet. Its weakness is that the tiling is manual, but once you internalize the keybindings, it’s good enough. And because it’s manual, it doesn’t screw up your windows like all the others seem to (for me at least).
Sway on Linux beats all of them hands down, though.
I will always choose Windows over Mac, if I have to. Using MacOS is infuriating on so many levels, I’d rather give myself the bullet (which doesn’t mean much tbh). At least I can ameliorate Windows for my VMs (in case of apps not working on Wine) which makes it ok to use
I know that this is irrational and I try to not let it influence my perception of people, but my brain is usually wired to “Mac user detected: technical opinion discarded”
ik and I do notice it (am currently doing an apprenticeship in software development). Maybe if you’d noticed that it’s mostly the frontend (/“js bro”) crowd, you’d be aware that JS and a few markup “languages” require little to no technical knowledge
EDIT: lmao just noticed the username “mac”. Apple fans are truly a special breed
For me, they both suck. I’ve been on Linux for close to 10 years now and continue to enjoy it more and more.
However, I will say, that if I need to recommend a computer to somebody who knows nothing about computers and doesn’t want to know anything, I will recommend Apple. I die a little inside each time though, knowing about their right to repair and privacy policies.
Honestly, if y’all would help your friend out with Linux they might be interested. If you just write down a note for them with the most basic commands for Debian, they would be okay.
DE: Use GNOME
Partiton layout: Use default /home for everything, don’t make seperate partitions for /root, /var, etc.
Add their user(s) to the sudoers file
CTRL+ALT+T to open the command line
Basic commands:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade
Install Flatpak, and bookmark Flathub in their browser. That should be good enough and honestly anyone could figure this out.
Be a good neighbor and teach them then. It’s not as hard as most people think it is. I’ve taught my mom, grandma, and friend how to use Linux before. My grandma uses Debian daily and she only had experience with computers by playing those online casino sites. Now she does it in full freedom and now I saved her some extra dough to throw into becoming a online casino addict! Yay grandma!
I am trying to say you guys should set it up for them, make it easy for them. It is very easy to just setup a taskbar and let them click on the browser, file explorer, etc.
I’m not sure why you are being downvoted but I agree with you. Helping them set up the first time makes their transition to Linux smoother. I just had someone’s laptop prepared with the steps you outlined in your previous comment and left them on how to install flatpak apps. They said they want to learn more beyond flatpak and genuinely interested how to learn to install the distro themselves.
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