memes

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HelixDab2, in Communist Filth/Capitalist Filth

This is fundamentally false.

While it is true that there was inexpensive housing available in the USSR, and that rents were quite reasonable compared to anything that currently exists in the US, and people couldn’t readily be evicted if they lacked the ability to pay, it’s a flat-out lie to say that that was the “solution” to homelessness, or that it eliminated the problem. Rather, the USSR criminalized being homeless and not being engaged in socially-productive labor; people that were homeless ended up in prisons and were labelled as parasites. The problem that we have now is that the official records simply didn’t record the problem, in much the same way that Stalin had histories and photos revised to eliminate people that had become enemies of the state.

HiddenLayer5,
@HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml avatar

deleted_by_author

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  • cricket98,

    How many homeless people in the USA do you think can work but refuse to? Hint: a lot of them.

    Glytch,

    Oh yeah, it’s super easy to get a job that pays enough to afford rent and food when you don’t already have a permanent address. /s

    TheScaryDoor,

    Rather, the USSR criminalized being homeless and not being engaged in socially-productive labor; people that were homeless ended up in prisons and were labelled as parasites.

    Swap USSR with USA and the statement remains true. Though Im sure the degree of severity was much greater in the USSR.

    c0mbatbag3l,
    @c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world avatar

    Sure are a lot of homeless people not in prison for what you’re claiming.

    lolcatnip, (edited )

    Prison would be a step up for a lot of them. They receive other punishments, like having all their belongings confiscated wherever a cop or some bureaucrat decides they’re getting in the way too much.

    Mango,

    I was homeless and police literally made up a reason to put me in jail and label me as a felon to make me be cheap labor when I plead guilty just to get out. No fair and speedy trial during COVID. I live in the US.

    What the law tells you it’s doing and what they’re actually doing are very different. Don’t try to tell me different because I’m a first hand example. If you’re interested in the full story, let me know and I can do a Discord call or something.

    intensely_human,

    If homeless people go to prison in this country, why have I never seen one arrested? Why are they … not in prison but rather sleeping on the street?

    I’m not sure what you’re trying to claim here, as what you’re claiming is obviously false based on my day to day experience in the US

    lolcatnip,

    You have a very simplistic view of what it means for something to be criminalized.

    abbotsbury,
    @abbotsbury@lemmy.world avatar

    If homeless people go to prison in this country, why have I never seen one arrested?

    this is selection bias, obviously

    rchive, (edited )

    That’s kind of true in some parts of the US, indirectly. Some places criminalize not being homeless but all the things that are the result of being homeless like sleeping outside or in public places. But there are a lot of places in the US that do provide for the homeless. New York City has a right to housing provision, for example.

    galloog1,

    That’s the problem with generalizing the United States. Every state has a different approach to the problem.

    tryptaminev,

    And it fucking shouldnt be the case. Ensuring basic humanity and human dignity should be a key matter of the federal government and not delegated to the whimps of states opinions on waht constitutes human rights.

    intensely_human,

    Well, shelter is not a human right that our government recognizes.

    rchive,

    If we set a national policy today and didn’t allow local governments to set their own policies, I’m pretty sure we’d have a national policy of no help for the homeless at all. Be happy the places that do have support are allowed to because of states’ rights.

    nebula42, in lol
    @nebula42@lemmy.world avatar

    You don’t need a VPN when you use tor. In fact, it’s probably less secure since it’s going through a private server that might have a government black box hooked up. Also, no FBI or CIA agent is ever gonna tell you to use tor???

    PleasantAura, (edited )

    This guy has been spamming garbage everywhere. sh.itjust.works is a terrible instance with no moderation and this quality of post is pretty normal from users there. I don’t know why they haven’t been defederated en masse when other less spammy/disruptive instances that actually contribute to discussions have been.

    velox_vulnus, (edited )

    There’s also a lot of racist spam from that instance. I’ve seen multiple images targeting Indians with toilets and excretion, especially on !memes.

    PleasantAura, (edited )

    Honestly, your instance has gotten worse over time in that regard too. Lemmy.ml used to be one of the better instances in that regard but the influx of Reddit users caused quality to crater and weird propaganda-ish pro-America/pro-capitalism stuff (and, not coincidentally, more racist/transphobic stuff) to start flowing from .ml. Probably not anything worthy of any block/defederation because ml still has decent content and a lot of good users but I sometimes am surprised by the stuff that comes out of there.

    Remmock,

    Here from Reddit. That’s one seriously broad paintbrush you’re using.

    ShitOnABrick,
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar

    Pro propaganda??? Pro amercia??? Pro captiliaist??? Wtf you on have you been on memes ml lately it’s mainly unfunny in my opinion tankie memes

    ShitOnABrick,
    @ShitOnABrick@lemmy.world avatar
    SkySyrup,

    This is pretty much you saying „defederate them“. bruh

    SkySyrup,

    You’re accusing thousands of good, active members over a few bad ones. Also defederation should not be thrown around lightly.

    PleasantAura,

    I didn’t say “defederate them”; I said that I didn’t know why other instances were defederated when that instance is worse. I intentionally didn’t say defederation is bad or good because that’s irrelevant.

    Also, different people have different views on defederation and its relation to the Fediverse. In my experience, curating away from content harmful to your users is important to creating healthy communities.

    SkySyrup,

    I apologize for accusing you of wanting to defederate. I must have misread.

    plague_sapiens,
    @plague_sapiens@lemmy.world avatar

    Tor traffic is for some ppl a no go. Better obfuscate it with bridges or use a VPN then.

    Think of this: You’re hosting a darknet market and there’s lots of traffic going on your site. That Tor traffic can be used to find your server, which uses Tor connections and has a lot of Tor traffic. Oh w8 thats bad. With a VPN you can hide that lots of Tor traffic is coming from your server.

    Certainly_No_Brit, (edited )

    When using Tor over VPN, the data going through the VPN’s server is already encrypted for Tor, but your IP is visible to the “black box”. Your anonymity should theoretically still be in effect even if someone reads your traffic.

    When using VPN over Tor, the data itself isn’t encrypted by Tor anymore, but the IP isn’t your original IP, but the exit node’s. Your anonymity depends on how you paid for the VPN (Monero > Cash by mail > Credit card).

    There is no evidence that the Tor network is compromised by the US government. It’s an open source network run by many volunteers all over the world. No FBI or CIA agent is ever gonna tell you to use Tor.

    Rustmilian, (edited )
    @Rustmilian@lemmy.world avatar
    AciesZenora, in He"s put his fighting hobby in front of the life's of the many over and over again.
    @AciesZenora@lemmy.world avatar

    And how does that not sound like a god exactly?

    SuperSaiyanSwag, in Go watch Invasion if you don't believe me

    I enjoyed Mythic Quest, I have not seen the latest season though

    blocker1980,

    Unfortunately it’s absolutely abysmal.

    erogenouswarzone,
    @erogenouswarzone@lemmy.ml avatar

    That’s a bummer. The first season was good… Except that bottle episode… Can TV just stop doing bottle episodes?

    ChadyzGroove,

    I didn’t think it was that bad, but I also binged it all at once and there is a noticeable decline as the show goes on.

    TheGiantKorean, in Go watch Invasion if you don't believe me
    @TheGiantKorean@lemmy.world avatar

    Severance and Foundation have been great. The Morning Show is pretty good, too. But yes, TL is GOAT.

    MdRuckus, in Go watch Invasion if you don't believe me

    I love Ted Lasso, but I actually have found about a dozen shows on AppleTV+. I love Severance, The Servant, Loot, Trying, Still Up, See, Foundation, The Morning Show, Physical, nature shows, documentaries, and still have shows on my list I haven’t gotten too.

    Tier1BuildABear,
    @Tier1BuildABear@lemmy.world avatar

    Thank you, Tim Apple

    RagingRobot,

    Yeah I hate how many good shows they have. I want to hate apple so bad but they are putting out quality stuff

    Guydht, in Never has never will

    How is this a meme

    Also classic lammy.ml hating everything about the west

    mayoi,

    It’s a meme because some people don’t understand that monetary system isn’t political.

    DarthFrodo,

    How is this anti western? Pretty much every country in the world is capitalist by now.

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    Well to be fair to hating the west for committing genocides to accomplish this, it’s not like a lot of them had a choice.

    Grayox,
    @Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

    Very Similar to how Christianity became a world religion at the end of a spear. However Capitalism is about as anti-Christ as any economic system can be.

    milicent_bystandr,

    Christianity became a world religion at the end of a spear

    … But at which end…

    rchive,

    All the good ones, anyway. Lol.

    Too mean?

    DarthFrodo, (edited )

    The good ones tend to do something in-between, with a market based economy, but good regulations, solid welfare, and democracy. Scandinavian countries have the happiest populations in the world, maybe we should try to learn from them.

    Unfortunately corporations get more power over time instead of less. They have an ever growing pile of money to buy media and politicians to push their interests, that’s probably the greatest challenge of democracy.

    rchive,

    Sometimes corporations get bigger, sometimes they get toppled by new competitors. A lot of them that we think of as unstoppable are barely hanging on by a thread. Twitter/X and Facebook are examples that come to mind. People don’t realize how much power they as consumers have.

    Siegfried, (edited )

    I think the meme are OP’s political ideas

    ColdWater, in Communist Filth/Capitalist Filth
    @ColdWater@lemmy.ca avatar

    Why a lot of people on Lemmy like communist so much? As a person who grow up in a country which is almost destroyed by the communist party in the past I don’t know what to say just why?, capitalist or not it’s depends on your own country’s government, at least you still can talking shit about them without getting arrested and torture to death, have we not learn from the past or other communist country, why don’t you live in North Korea or China and see how’ve you like it

    intensely_human,

    You need to tell your story more, and include the feelings, and include how the communist policies did that destruction.

    People like communism because they don’t know your story.

    rando895,

    Though to be fair, DPRK is the way it is at least in part thanks to the Americans obliterating their cities and farm land. But we can ignore history to make a “I used to be in a communist country and it’s bad, trust me bro” statement.

    And I agree, I prefer to live in a system where prisoners aren’t primarily minorities or political prisoners. And where the prison system isn’t the most populated in the world, and rife with for-profit forced labour.

    I would also be curious to hear which definition of “capitalism” and “Communism” you are using. That is, if you are open to dialogue.

    bennieandthez,
    @bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Not to mention NK is economically blockaded and has to endure yearly military provocations by the largest military in the world. No wonder why they take draconian measures.

    TheSanSabaSongbird,

    They take draconian measures because they’re held hostage by one of the world’s most powerful and effective crime families. One only needs to look at South Korea to see that it doesn’t have to be this way.

    bennieandthez,
    @bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    Aint you confusing it with South korea? 😂

    rando895,

    True, the south manages to have a rising GDP and the world’s worst rates of suicide, and some of the longest working hours of anywhere, while being held hostage by that same crime family. That is the difference you can expect while you kiss the boot of the empire responsible for segregating your country and preventing any attempts of reunification.

    KeefChief13,

    deleted_by_author

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  • AngryCommieKender,

    So you think that The Christ was a moron? He is the literal archetype bearded, sandal wearing, tree hugging cursing (ok that one is weird), hippie. Hell, he told his followers to go live in communes…

    AngryCommieKender,

    Saying that any existing communist party looks like what we, or theory, want(s), is like saying that North Korea is a Democratic Republic because it’s part of the name. Authoritarians love corrupting the meaning of words so they can keep people ignorant.

    Ktastic,

    Right, which would also hold true for capitalism… Thus mooting the original point.

    AngryCommieKender, (edited )

    Not really. The US has completely unchecked capitalism if you aren’t wealthier than $100,000,000, as does the rest of the world thanks to a court that the IMF set up. If your country has a resource the capitalists want to exploit, and the people or government don’t allow it, they will sue you in this international court and use the US military to impose fines of billions of dollars per year in “lost revenue.” Much of Africa and South America can tell you all about it.

    Capitalism and communism are economic systems not political theory.

    purahna,
    @purahna@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    ah yes because politics (the management of people at large scale) and economics (the management of things people need to live at large scale) are totally unrelated and have no intrinsic links

    Traister101,

    Capitalism is sadly doing exactly what it’s designed to do there’s just a lot of propaganda to mislead you such as the infamous trickle down economics idea

    OurToothbrush, (edited )

    NK’s highest legislative body is a multiparty parliament elected directly by the people.

    “Oh but the communists dominate”

    Yeah, because they do popular things and have a popular political program compared to the other parties.

    Is it more democratic when no one party is popular because all of them don’t help the proletariat and power is a hot potato passed to whatever bourgeois party fucked the people the longest time ago?

    Grayox,
    @Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

    What Country?

    mo_lave,

    Grass is greener on the other side

    TheBeege,

    This community is on lemmy.ml, which explicitly leans hard left. Maybe a memes community on another instance would be less like this

    Traister101, (edited )

    We have never seen an actual communist country. USSR for example was a fascist dictatorship which runs directly counter to the first property of communism, it must be stateless.

    Facists like the Nazis like to claim they are for the people and sadly the only “communism” we’ve seen so far has been carried out by their hands. This is similar to how Nazis were supposedly progressive… Hopefully we can agree that is obviously not the case.

    rchive,

    I’d say the fact that leftist socialist or communist movements keep decaying into authoritarian dictatorships is a pretty big weakness of communism, actually. I think Western capitalist countries are not perfect by any means, but they’re winning the quality of life game, even of poor people.

    OurToothbrush, (edited )

    The Cuban people literally joke that the government should be less democratic because of how much they consult the people, I dont think it is an authoritarian dictatorship and it is under immense pressure as it is 70 miles away from the imperial core and has been effectively blockaded for 60 years or so.

    rchive,

    Sure, different ones have different levels of dictorshipness. To be clear, democratic and authoritarian are not opposites at all. Chattel slavery in the US was extremely authoritarian and awful, yet it was democratic. Abolition was a minority viewpoint until around the time of the Civil War.

    Traister101,

    Not decaying. The Nazis were always fascist they put on a front of being progressive to ganrner support which worked quite well as we can tell from history. By the time it became obvious they weren’t really progressive they were already in power.

    OurToothbrush,

    jewishcurrents.org/the-double-genocide-theory

    Don’t call communists fascists please. This is an article from a mainstream holocaust historian that explains why a related equation between the two is harmful.

    I would also recommend reading “economy and class structure of german fascism” so you have a better idea of what fascism actually means.

    RichCaffeineFlavor, (edited )

    ‘in the past’

    How old are you? If your claim to authority here is that you grew up being told history by the winners, what should that mean to us?

    What was done in South America for a century was done in a decade in Eastern Europe when the west finally won the cold war. Read Shock Doctrine.

    Grayox,
    @Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

    While they wont even tell us what country they are talking about.

    Omega_Haxors, (edited )

    “They took my father’s slaves!”

    Shut the fuck up, colonizer.

    Zastyion345,

    What ? Why do you have need to bring hostility to a peaceful conversation, where did he say that his father had slaves ?

    My parents grew up in communism, and its true it did ruin some countries but it helped out too, its important to not keep this conversation black and white and use communism or capitalism as the ultimate solution to very difficult problem.

    mycorrhiza, (edited )

    how old were you when the USSR fell? Did you experience communism, or the capitalist takeover after communism fell?

    pinkdrunkenelephants,

    Because they hate the system they live in and communism is the only modern alternative that has ever existed.

    When someone comes up with an alternative to both, humanity will move forward.

    SasquatchBanana,

    I’m going to take your question as genuine and answer in equal.

    It’s a bit more complicated than that. Most leftists will agree with you, the USSR and other Eastern Europe countries that were communist did a lot of damage and most likely more harm. They committed atrocities. They were authoritarian. It was disgusting.

    The leftists who still prop those countries up on their shoulders are what many call tankies. Today they sing praise about Russia, China, and North Korea, but your observation is correct, they won’t ever move there. These are individuals who repeat propaganda and are, ultimately, just red fascists. When you actually dig into their ideals they parallel and sometimes mirror Nazis.

    I believe leftism cannot have an authoritarian element to it. I think most social hierarchies need to be destroyed. I think the only way to have a socialist society is through democratic means. Democracy in the workplace and national level. I think most of us can agree workers need higher wages and there is a wealth gap that needs to be dismantled. I think most of us believe healthcare needs to be universal, food and shelter and water, education, information (internet), speech, and much more should be free and readily available. There is this element of freedom that needs to be achieved that isn’t found the countries that are “communist”.

    I don’t want to explicitly say those communist countries wasn’t “real communism”, but fascists, authoritarianism, always appropriate from progressive movement. There is no freedom, especially of workers, under a dictatorship. If workers are starving, dying, being outright black bagged and killed, i don’t think that can be considered communist.

    tryptaminev,

    In the “capitalism did better than communism/socialism” debate i still feel a great lack of historical context. Eastern Europe has been largely destroyed by the Nazis. China has lived through brutal Japanese occupation and a genocide of 10 Million people. Korea has been subject to a war emplyoing terrible new weapons such as Napalm to bring great destruction.

    Meanwhile the US homeland has been faring without any destruction, France surrendered quick enough to avoid most damage and the UK sucessfully fended off the Nazi attacks so the damage was limited.

    Purely economically speaking the Western allies were off to a much better start than the Eastern countries. So i would argue that for the economical question, it remains impossible to claim capitalism to be superior to socialism. Otherwise authoritarianism is always to the detriment of the people.

    ikidd,
    @ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

    The last paragraph comes across as about “no true Scotsman” as it gets. Maybe true IRL communism is as much fiction as the star trek depiction of it is.

    SasquatchBanana,

    That’s the point of my concluding paragraph. I am acknowledging that fallacy. So I ask, if freedom is an actual component to socialism, communism, or anarchism, then is the USSR actually a communist state? I can easily argue North Korea isn’t. China and Russia aren’t socialist at all. Russia is an oligopoly and China is just state capitalism.

    So what is “true socialism”? I don’t think we can ever achieve. We can’t have a “perfect” society, but I do think we can get close enough having workers been more in control of their labor, be more democratic, and not live in an authoritarian state. We may not 100% be able to live in a Star Trek universe but I think we can get quite close.

    mayoi,

    National socialism of course.

    Seasoned_Greetings,

    See how these people aren’t even engaging you here? That’s because you’re not trying hard enough.

    You can do better my troll friend. I believe in you

    Resonanz,

    Sure, here are some examples:

    As you may imagine, they aren’t finding their way to exist easy. But they sure are having success in learning how to create a horizontal society.

    FlyingSquid, (edited )
    @FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

    The former is operating illegally amidst intense violence that they have as much responsibility for as the Mexican government and the latter have committed ethnic cleansing. So I’m not sure why you think they are good examples. Unless you think socialism means people must be killed.

    RichCaffeineFlavor, (edited )

    Hello, I’d like to speak for people I disagree with

    As a leftist whose platform doesn’t seem to include a word about abolishing capitalism, any time I am challenged by someone to the left of Bernie Sanders, I turn into a right wing crank telling people ‘if you don’t like it get out’

    And today I’d like to tell you about horseshoe theory

    SasquatchBanana,

    If you actually believe in horseshoe theory then I have a bridge to sell you. Are you going to tell me you’re a centrist?

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    context clues

    HelloHotel, (edited )

    Yes, anti-Tankies are verry simmlar to Tankies. However, I think the commenter is coping by being an anti-tankie. Both groups can becone and come back from crazy. People can also safely hold tankie and anti-tankie like beleafs but (like a lot of ideology) run the risk of becoming crazy.

    amaricentric peoples perspective (wrough draft probably wrong)“Tankie” nationallists fail to see the raising over time evil and fantisize the good and the ones who passionately hate Tankies (im guilty of it) fail to see the good slowly rotting away. Then we say the whole country never changed throuout its lifetime, one points to the beginnigng the other points to the end. Places like the Soviate Union from my limited knolage seem to be a nation with slowly growing leadership alignment problems, slowly using things like nationalism and subverting democracy to flip who should be masters and who should be slaves.

    RichCaffeineFlavor,

    Can we just go back to saying communists please?

    HelloHotel,

    Absolutely, internal divisions suck. (What people are calling) Tankie and anti tankie ideas have the potential to be useful if and when its not an ideologial snare.

    mycorrhiza,

    sing praise about Russia

    I have never seen a communist claim that the modern Russian government is good or communist, only that it opposes western hegemony, to the occasional benefit of poor nations in the global south.

    Cannacheques,

    Ah yes the utopian rainbow many want, yes,

    OurToothbrush, (edited )

    It’s a bit more complicated than that. Most leftists will agree with you, the USSR and other Eastern Europe countries that were communist did a lot of damage and most likely more harm. They committed atrocities. They were authoritarian. It was disgusting.

    Most leftists are literally marxist leninists or some derivative of ML in socialist countries. I think you mean most white leftists in the imperial core when you say most leftists.

    captain_aggravated, (edited )
    @captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works avatar

    I think you might call me an FDR New Deal socialist. I’m in favor of things like social security and government public works projects.

    It has been my experience as a lifelong American that “capitalism” is just feudalism, or a desperate attempt to return to feudalism. “Capitalists” aka the ruling class have all the “capital” aka enough resources to actually accomplish anything. When any normal citizen wants to start a business, they have to beg a capitalist for a loan of some type, possibly selling “stock” aka a loan that never pays to term, allowing the capitalists to leech off of your profits basically forever. Wages get lower, costs get higher, all to funnel as much wealth to a small upper class. The myth of the meritocracy, where he with the best ideas, the best inventions, the most innovation, the product most in demand is he one that succeeds…doesn’t hold up in a world of patent trolling or felony contempt of business model we’re currently in. Doesn’t stop them from parroting it to keep the little people quiet though.

    Meanwhile I’m not aware of a “communist” nation that ever actually was. I am unaware of a nation that has ever actually operated per “to each according to his ability, from each according to his need” workers owning the means of production etc. They’ve all turned out as dictatorships with command economies. I mean, show me a country where the workers’ unions are actually the ones in power. No, you’ve got the likes of North Korea, Russia and China building empty skyscrapers, building entire cities that sit empty, demolishing brand new apartment complexes because the floors aren’t safe to walk on. The government told us to build it, so we built it. I get punished if I don’t, and I don’t get rewarded for doing a good job. The man that wrote Tetris didn’t earn a single kopek.

    Neither seem to actually work long-term.

    OurToothbrush,

    Okay, a “fdr new deal socialist” isnt a thing. FDR was a social democrat which isn’t socialist. The new deal was a social democrat policy, not socialist.

    Please consider reading “the abc’s of socialism” it is a good introduction to socialist thought.

    Anamana,
    @Anamana@feddit.de avatar

    Are there any statistics on where the most (convinced) leftists currently live? Just wondering. Not talking about people who are forced to adhere to authoritarian systems to survive or further their career.

    OurToothbrush,

    There are literally 100 million members of the CPC. If .1 percent of them earnestly believe in communist thought that is more than the total members of communist orgs in the US.

    Soleos, (edited )

    Because they are reacting to living under the oppressive structures of late capitalism. Having been raised in a capitalist world, they naturally overemphasize economic systems and their alternatives and make assumptions about government.

    So when they communism theyusually mean communism + some equitable government or just they mean socialist democracy.

    Funnily enough, you live pretty well in China these days if you’re a good little capitalist.

    uis,
    @uis@lemmy.world avatar

    “China is capitalism with beastly grin”

    • Ekaterina Shulman
    PeriodicallyPedantic,

    It’s an unfortunately nuanced subject, where people don’t agree on the underlying definitions of words. For instance, I think you’re confusing “capitalism” with “democracy”. You can have authoritarian undemocratic capitalist countries, where you can’t talk shit about your government.

    For me personally, I think communism has too many issues to actually try, but I like some of its theoretical tennants when compared to that of capitalism. Those goals are something to strive for. The spirit of communism is helping eachother and rewarding work, and the spirit of capitalism is sacrificing others for personal gain

    rchive,

    I’m a big fan of capitalism, but I appreciate your comment nonetheless. To me there’s nothing anti capitalist about sharing or wanting to take care of the people around you.

    Nurse_Robot,

    Well that’s just wrong. Capitalism is about profit, it’s anti capitalist to take care of others unless you’re profiting off of them. I’m not saying that I’m for or against capitalism, I’m just correcting your assertion.

    intensely_human,

    Capitalism is about free markets. The arrangement of wage labor is an emergent result of allowing people to enter only into economic relations they consent to.

    To take care of others for free is entirely fine, if it’s what you want to do. That doesn’t conflict with capitalism at all. The only difference is that under a free market people do that when they choose to, not when they are compelled to.

    And what actually happens is that people choose to a lot.

    rchive,

    That’s the cartoon version of capitalism just like how “socialism is when the government does something” is the cartoon version of socialism. Capitalism just means that the means of production in a society are owned and controlled by private owners instead of by workers or the government as a proxy for workers. It says nothing about whether people are compelled to be greedy or anti-sharing or something.

    PeriodicallyPedantic, (edited )

    Capitalism is about taking everything you can, to act as a balance against everyone else doing the same, because the fundamental assumption is that greed is the natural state for people and we shouldn’t try to fight it. Under capitalism, competition doesn’t just apply to businesses in markets, it extends to everything: people must compete with those around them for resources (be it jobs, or food, or retirement investments), making human connection a primarily adversarial relationship.

    Now nothing says that you must apply capitalist principals to every aspect of your life if you live in a capitalist society, but it slowly becomes the norm. Eventually, the reason people take care of eachother because is indirectly benefits themselves, rather than because its a good thing to do… And when that’s your justification, it’s easy to stop doing it.

    It’s all about establishing norms about how people should treat eachother. Under capitalism the norm is adviseraial by design, but under communist it was supposed to be cooperative. It didn’t even up working that way, but that is the ideal we should strive towards.

    Edit: fix typos

    Cannacheques,

    I think a lot of people don’t want to admit that most political ideas ranging from communism to capitalism are half baked labels we stick onto a collection of beliefs about what works best to solve certain problems. If you got rid of the labels you might just ask the question of what works and where the money will come from

    Cowbee,

    A number of reasons. Just like you claim a Communist party almost destroyed your country, Capitalist parties destroy and are destroying many countries as well. The existence of bad Communist parties does not itself mean Communism is structurally a bad thing, as pursuit of a Stateless, Classless, Moneyless society is a noble goal for humanity.

    I think it’s fair to say that decentralization is a good check against Authoritarianism, and as such, this should be extended to the workplace, not just government.

    As far as why Lemmy leans left, the founder is a Communist, and principles of decentralization and federation tend to appeal far more to leftists, while Capitalist-inclined individuals have Reddit.

    intensely_human,

    It’s not so much the existence of bad communism that indicates communism is a structurally bad thing, quite so much as the utter lack of good communism that indicates communism is a structurally bad thing.

    Cowbee,

    That’s certainly enough to form a hypothesis, but far, far from proof against it. There aren’t any “good” developing countries either.

    mayoi, (edited )

    principles of decentralization and federation tend to appeal far more to leftists

    Absolute load of shit, just like your false dichotomy of capitalism vs communism. Neither affects politics. In fact countries are being destroyed by the same type of people, they don’t give a fuck if they’re playing communism or capitalism today.

    … As for why majority of countries are capitalist and not the system that has never been tried, that’s because people always want to outsource decisions to someone else and when the people own means of production, there can be no production, only people inclined to produce do produce.

    Classless society is impossible when 80% of people are worthless lackeys and only 20% of people even dream of doing something.

    Cowbee,

    Lmao, none of what you just said actually meant anything, beyond you hating humanity and deepthroating Capitalist boot.

    mayoi, (edited )

    Yes I’m misanthrope, what are you gonna do about it? Spout more bullshit that makes me hate you even more?

    Colonial insects are the only ones who made communism work and that’s because they’re insects, goodluck with this knowledge.

    Cowbee,

    You don’t actually have any points, though. Your whole thing is that “good thing bad because it hurts my feelings,” lmao.

    mayoi,

    You’re the one whose feelings get hurt every time I tell you that the only ones who implemented communism successfully have no feelings. They don’t even have a brain, ants and bees are more like machines, unlike humans who have hopes, dreams, and aspirations, and some humans aspire to rock the boat which is why goymmunism will never ever work in our species.

    Cowbee,

    What would a human who has hopes, dreams, and aspirations do to rock the boat in Communism? Why do you think Communism is based on requiring everyone not have hopes, dreams, and aspirations?

    You don’t actually know, your feelings are just hurt and so you lash out.

    intensely_human,

    What would a human who has hopes, dreams, and aspirations do to rock the boat in Communism?

    Anything other than what the democratically-decided master economic plan says they should be doing.

    Cowbee,

    So same as Capitalism, but without the democracy. Sounds like Communism is better.

    mayoi,

    Contribute nothing and receive everything, according to everyone’s needs of course.

    Cowbee,

    Yea, so you don’t actually understand Marx, and I’m correct. Glad you could prove me right!

    Seasoned_Greetings,

    Spout more bullshit that makes me hate you even more?

    Bad form, troll. It’s weakness to let your mark know that you hate them

    Seasoned_Greetings,

    when 80% of people are worthless lackeys and only 20% of people even dream of doing something.

    Man, I thought you said yesterday that your parents raised you right? The more I see you, the more it’s clear that they mostly just raised a cynical asshole. I guess that’s par for the course for a troll picking fights on obscure social media

    rchive,

    I’m just laughing to myself about the thought of Reddit being primarily capitalist. Lol

    Cowbee,

    It’s a for-profit, Capitalist business that runs it, ergo its Capitalist. The user base is largely liberal, which is still pro-Capitalism. You tend to see more Anarchists and Communists on Lemmy by proportion.

    Seasoned_Greetings,

    Heads up, this guy is a troll. His sole, self declared purpose is to be an asshole and pick fights. Not worth engaging

    intensely_human,

    I don’t believe you. This sounds like the sort of thing a person could say to poison the well against someone else, unless someone demands proof.

    So where is this statement of purpose?

    Seasoned_Greetings, (edited )

    I was born into this world for no other reason than to be intolerant towards self righteous idiots like yourself who do more harm than good with their naive infantile worldview.

    Also if you pulled your head out of your ass, you’d notice I’ve been pretty tolerant of your stupidity, but it can only go so far. I’m not trying to sound less shitty either, I simply added more to my reply, the reasons as to why that you made up in your head aren’t my problem to deal with.

    In the end, people like you end up full fascist psychopaths who kill people they don’t like because that’s better than allowing people to say things you don’t like.

    The self righteous part in question that he’s born to be against, is literally just claiming to be tolerant. Not bludgeoning people with tolerance, not using tolerance as a weapon to silence people as he claims. Just labeling oneself “tolerant”, and the general idea of tolerance. He also spent several comments doubling down. Maybe go read the exchange and see for yourself?

    Seasoned_Greetings, (edited )

    Also, some of his other greatest hits include denying that the holocaust was so bad because “not all the jews died”, outright claiming that “Fossil fuels are recyclable” in a single sentence comment in a debate about why he thinks evs are bullshit, and laying out an explicit violent fantasy about magdumping into a theoretical person who might strike him for any reason.

    One of his most recent comments just says, “violence has never not worked”

    Do go read some of his exchanges for yourself and determine if I’m just poisoning the well.

    Cowbee,

    Noted!

    sleepy555, in ¿¿Que??
    HadManySons, in Go watch Invasion if you don't believe me

    Foundation and Silo are phenomenal

    FlexibleToast,

    Severance and Silo you mean. Foundation has been partly great and partly terrible. Any plotline with Brother Day has been fantastic. The others have been weak or, in the case of Salvor, terrible. Overall, the foundation is worth a watch, but it is not phenomenal, in my opinion. Not like the other shows.

    ivanafterall,
    @ivanafterall@kbin.social avatar

    And Severance. One of my most-awaited TV show returns.

    funkajunk,
    @funkajunk@lemm.ee avatar

    From what I have heard of Foundation, it’s good if you’ve never read the books.

    Serinus,

    Maybe someday I’ll have to try it again while pretending it has nothing to do with Asimov.

    itsJoelle, in Go watch Invasion if you don't believe me

    Lessons in Chemistry is fire.

    Vomitproject,

    Yes!

    Potatos_are_not_friends, in Go watch Invasion if you don't believe me

    Severance is so good

    JuanR,

    It was very very very slow. The season finale was 🤯🤯🤯.

    LucidLethargy, (edited )

    I don’t remember it being slow, but I think that’s just because the slow pace was part of the intention behind the show. Offices are slow, horrible places to work when we’re talking about corporate environments. So it added to the horror that they made many in-office experiences drag out, and it hit really hard as a result.

    So yeah, I agree, but also… I loved/hated it (mostly loved it).

    LucidLethargy,

    It was. I don’t like this service, but this was a fantastic show.

    Retrograde,
    @Retrograde@lemmy.world avatar

    Please remember to enjoy all shows equally

    andrew_bidlaw, in Communist Filth/Capitalist Filth
    @andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works avatar

    You know a lot of soviet buildings was built by prison labor? Let’s make a next meme about egyptian pyramids. They look great too.

    Stalins_Spoon,
    @Stalins_Spoon@lemmygrad.ml avatar
    
    <span style="color:#323232;">citation needed
    </span>
    
    AngryCommieKender,

    Way more shit is done with prison labor in the US. I guarantee. We have 25% of the prison population of the world, and the USSR had a tendency to send a massive amount of their prisoners to Siberia, which would make it difficult to help build apartment blocks several thousand miles away.

    andrew_bidlaw, (edited )
    @andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works avatar

    What’s with that whataboutism? I don’t care about the US. Why do your type brings it up every time, like it makes USSR’s wrongdoings more acceptable. It doesn’t. It’s rather a lesson to learn and not repeat in your country.

    and the USSR had a tendency to send a massive amount of their prisoners to Siberia, which would make it difficult to help build apartment blocks several thousand miles away.

    So? They built infrastructure there, yes, so it’s enormous territory can be somehow crossable. And they also built infrastructure, housing and plants\factories all over it’s territory. Gulag wasn’t just a one small camp, it’s the Main Office of Camp (Managenent), it had a lot of people to send elsewhere, based on what Kremlin wants.

    MissJinx, (edited ) in Communist Filth/Capitalist Filth
    @MissJinx@lemmy.world avatar

    Hey OP, comunistm is great on paper because it doesn’t take into consideration the human nature. Humans are corruptible, no matter who, and even the best of us would be corrupted when it comes to someone they love. This alone breaks the comunist stance because you can’t have fairness when one human is responsable for managing/governing. Comunism would work if there was no hierarchy between humans, no one more powerful. Maybe if some aliens come or if some AI evolve enough to govern, but that’s is not today’s world

    Edit: I do think the US level of captalism is horrible. Maybe begin with just SOME socialist policies, like free healthcare and univesities, that would already improve so much the lifes of americans

    seitanic,
    @seitanic@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

    Humans are corruptible, no matter who, and even the best of us would be corrupted when it comes to someone they love.

    Agreed! That’s why I think it would be better if the workers ran things, instead of a few corrupt CEOs.

    Grayox,
    @Grayox@lemmy.ml avatar

    Hey Commenter, it sounds like you only have a surface level understanding of Communism, i suggest you read some theory. Communism very much takes human greed into account, its kind of its whole point.

    MissJinx, (edited )
    @MissJinx@lemmy.world avatar

    You are right I really don’t, but not all theory translates well into reality. How would a country of milions manage all that without hierarchy? I’m not going against you I’m just trying to understand how would this work without a dictatorship and considering that humans are not trustworthy

    KrasMazov, (edited )
    @KrasMazov@lemmygrad.ml avatar

    You seem to be at least a little bit interested, I suggest you watch some videos on youtube so you understand it better, the channel Second Thought would be a good place to start.

    I’ll try to answer your concerns below:

    The current ideology of society is the ideology of its rulling class.

    Human nature, if anything is much more about collaboration and collective effort than greed, that’s how it has been for most of human history.

    That is to say, we precisely see so much greed everywhere because we live in a system that heavily incentivizes individuality and greed. From the way we are taught to the media we consume, it’s literally everywhere. We are heavily influenced to think and see things in this particular individualistic way.

    A society that puts human needs and collective effort above profits have a different way of viewing and interacting with the world than the way we do in capitalist societies. Besides that, if your concern is people abusing power, there should be mechanisms in place to account for that.

    My knowledge on this whole topic is not deep, but I guess something you could look up is democratic centralism to understand how hierarchy works in a marxist-leninist socialist state.

    Also, my understanding is that marxist theory is only dogmatic in relation to it’s method, as everything else about it adapts to the reality and the material conditions of the time and place it is to be put into practice.

    badcommandorfilename,

    … one human is responsable for managing/governing.

    This is the definition of a dictatorship, not communism

    MissJinx,
    @MissJinx@lemmy.world avatar

    True, also the only exemple of comunism ever

    badcommandorfilename,

    I don’t think that adding capitalism to dictatorships improves anything though.

    Communism/Capitalism/Socialism = Economic Ideas

    Dictatorship/Monarchy/Democracy = Political Systems

    AngryCommieKender,

    you can’t have fairness when one human is responsable for managing/governing.

    I would say that you have left your society and government open to the inevitably of corruption when you place the power in one person’s hands. I’ve been advocating for elected councils to run the system. It’s not impossible to corrupt an elected council, one needs look no further than the US Congress, or whatever they call the CCP massive room of people. I would propose that just having a council is not enough, one also needs to have a more robust voting system such as Ranked Choice Voting, or another runoff system so that you don’t end up with a choice between two shit sandwiches. We also need to abolish policing, as it is currently done, as a career. I’m not certain how to fix this one, and perhaps we can’t without actual incorruptible androids and AI.

    The real issue is that we the people have tried to implement these changes only for the rich old fossils to refuse the will of the people. Just look at what is happening with Measure 1&2 in Ohio.

    MissJinx, (edited )
    @MissJinx@lemmy.world avatar

    I don’t think there is an imediate solution. Humams can not be trusted with power, it’s human nature. I see only 2 ways, either someone/thing else does it or, a more realistic one, technology becomes so powerful that we can manage the managers, monitoring their actions/choices (and voting?! maybe?!) Idk, but remember that tech is a sword and not a knife, if it monitors them.they would also monitor us.

    Anyway there is no simple solution. Captalism as is today and comunism as is today are both bad options.

    Klanky, in Go watch Invasion if you don't believe me
    @Klanky@sopuli.xyz avatar

    I would say Severance, For All Mankind, & Foundation are all good to great. Apple TV has been doing a great job with the quality vs. quantity compared to other services. I tried to get into Ted Lasso but it wasn’t for me.

    Vode_An,

    Tell me you haven’t read the foundation books without saying so

    ivanafterall,
    @ivanafterall@kbin.social avatar

    "It's impossible to like two different things."

    funkajunk,
    @funkajunk@lemm.ee avatar

    “I want the exact same thing that I imagined inside my head when I read the books, how do they not get it!?”

    Klanky,
    @Klanky@sopuli.xyz avatar

    Read and loved them since I was a kid. I understand that different mediums have different requirements and adapting stories from the 40s/50s might necessitate some changes. I definitely have my issues with it, but I am able to enjoy it for what it is and not pretend it’s a 1 to 1 version of the books. Life is too short to get upset about entertainment.

    Serinus,

    1 to 1

    You’re kidding, right? The series would have been better if it weren’t called Foundation. They’ve mutilated the source material far worse than anything JJ Abrams has ever done.

    If you start watching that show because of the name and history, then it’s a terrible show.

    If you took Jersey Shore and renamed it “Lord of the Rings: Shoreline” while having the characters spout the word “Hobbit” here and there, people would be rightfully disappointed.

    This honestly isn’t far off of that. The show is a disgrace to the books and shouldn’t share the name. Maybe if I can go back and forget the association, I could appreciate it for what it is. But it’s not what it was sold as.

    Klanky,
    @Klanky@sopuli.xyz avatar

    I don’t know what to say. I went in not expecting a 1 to 1 of the books. I agree there are definitely some things that are very questionable and things I don’t like, and I think there are some cool things about it too. I love the books and they will always be there for me to enjoy. I just don’t have the energy to get that upset about stuff like this anymore. I’m not trying to change your mind and I see where you’re coming from. I’m just trying to say that liking the series doesn’t automatically mean you’ve never read the books.

    MissJinx, (edited )
    @MissJinx@lemmy.world avatar

    Foundation got a little boring tbf but I still watch

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