I think you overestimate how open minded the average person is. People are quick to reject an argument when it doesn’t conform to their world views. This comic is long because it tries to address most doubts about it. It’s slow to get to the point to avoid triggering the visceral reaction some people have to feminist theories.
Nobody who is not open minded is going to read long ass comic, that is contradicting their world view. Seems like preaching to the choir type of situation to me, makes the artis feel good but misses the audience that would profit from the message.
I think there are a good amount of people who are on the fence who would be persuaded by the detailed argument in this comic. The thing that the author is trying to convince people of is subtle and invisible to most people.
How do you tell people that this invisible thing exists and that they might be the one perpetuating it without putting them off?
It’s like asking your well meaning friends not to use ‘retarded’ as an insult. Sure, they aren’t saying this to hurt disabled people, but they are unaware that it does. The best way to change their minds isn’t by saying ‘you’re offensive’ and decry their character. It’s by slowly and gently telling them that you know they don’t mean to, but this thing that they say hurts people.
I’m not saying that we need to walk on eggshells around every offensive person, I’m saying that slow drawn out explanations without directly criticizing people is what works.
I think there are a good amount of people who are on the fence who would be persuaded by the detailed argument
I can see that point, thank you. I was more thinking about people being totally opposed, but yeah - for someone on the fence who is genuinely looking into the Argument that would be indeed a very nice comic.
I honestly do not understand what you are trying to say. Are you implying this comic is one of the “all men are bad” category? Are you parodying how incels would react to a post like this?
No. I’m just tired of all the blame men are getting. It’s like being a man makes you inherently a bad, evil person and a persecutor of women.
Men have their flaws, sure. And yes there is toxic masculinity. But at some point, blaming men all the time for everything is like they’re using them as scapegoats for their own shortcomings. Fait exemple, is it because of men that this author isn’t assertive?
And I also disagree with her other one about the mental load over responsibilities in her household and how men are lazy. And how, according to her, it’s all women who have this problem and all men are like this. In my household, I’m the one who takes care of these things. I’m the one who plans groceries, thinks about repairs, thinks about laundry, cleaning, dishes, cooking, etc. Yet my girlfriend used her fucking comic to point out to me that I’m the lazy one in the house somehow because I have a dick and balls and spend longer periods in the bathroom than her.
She has a problem with assertiveness and she blames men for her own shortcomings.
And I’m so sick and tired of the anti-men bullshit that it’s really affecting my self esteem and my perception of myself. I can’t express how I feel about this either because someone will just repeat some fucking anti-men text they read off of some feminist meme and mock me by saying “nOt AlL mEn”. As if “yes all men are bad”. I’ve seen girl friends post shit on social media where they said all men should die and even mocked articles about suicide rates in men. They also laughed as they reposted articles about men committing suicide.
At some point, when are we going to recognize there is some toxic feminists who are just outright mysandrists and there is nothing men will ever do to make them happy?
Or maybe that’s the solution isn’t it? Maybe I should just fucking kill myself and do all women a big fucking favor.
So? This happens to other men as well. This isn’t always men’s fault. It can be sexism in some cases, but in others it can be about keeping control over employees or not wanting to give promotions because the company wants to cut costs.
I’ve been fired for trying to be assertive once. I was sick of not getting better working conditions and better pay for the work I was doing compared to my peers and was laid off with some bullshit excuse. I was soon replaced with someone else who was paid less and didn’t complain. But I’m a dude. So…?
I know my shortcomings. I know that, like the author, I lack assertiveness. Maybe that explains why I face the same problem she does. Except, I’m a man. Should I also blame men for what’s happening to me?
Men face a lot of pressure from society. Society has a lot of expectations for men in general. Maybe that’s what’s driving up the suicide rate among men. Add to that the total lack of any support network for men, and lack of support for male victims of abuse. But I suppose we should blame ourselves for this as well?
You don’t represent men and certainly not me. If you feel personally attacked enough to write a novel about it in a Lemmy thread, maybe you are the problem.
I think you are conflating men with the patriarchy. These two things are different. Men are people, and people are diverse with unique thoughts and feelings. The patriarchy is a system that causes men and women to behave in gender conforming ways that are harmful to both.
This comic isn’t criticizing men as a whole, it’s criticizing the social conditioning that many men go through that make them unaware of how certain speech and actions impact women.
When comics like this are asking men to be mindful of benevolent sexism, it’s not saying ‘men are sexist’, it’s asking men to be aware of this phenomenon and take steps to stop themselves and others from perpetuating it.
You might not express benevolent sexism, but your friends, family, and colleagues might, and you can be an ally when by pointing it out when you see it.
Too often when women face subtle forms of sexism, they are prohibited from speaking up due to the downplay and backlash they get. Subtle forms of sexism are very hard to point out without being labeled as bitchy or oversensitive.
I know it may not feel like it but this is what healthy masculinity means in this day and age. There is nothing more respectable than men speaking up to other men and holding each other to higher standards. It’s incredibly powerful for men to speak up and support women in this because men who perpetuate benevolent sexism generally tend to listen to other men.
I’m sure there’s people out there that this is genuinely great advice for, but at least from my perspective, it just reads like an extremely long way to say almost nothing. “be out there and be confident” is like the most basic possible dating advice, ever, and is really only useful if you’re completely off track on things. And to some extent, I feel like the article did itself a disservice by making it entirely gender neutral, because like it or not, society still tends to be highly gendered, and the problems people face in dating tend to be different along gendered lines.
It’s like the “have you tried restarting your computer” of dating. It’s the most basic possible piece of advice. To that end, most people have heard it tons of times, especially if they’re in the market for dating advice. It’s not bad advice, just not anything special.
Sure on individual level but without knowing the person there is not much general advice to be given. It will always be general things like don’t be ugly or shy.
A friend was in a car crash with his daughter in the passenger seat. I asked him how he was doing when I saw him in the pub and he nearly broke down. No-one had asked before and it had been pretty shocking experience.
I especially liked that they raised point like the fact that despite the fact that men earn more on average and make up more of the top CEO/Board Members spots, that those things don’t help the bottom segment of boys who are left behind in school and left unsupported.
Their program to try and pull those teens back into post secondary is helpful and I’d be excited to see their long term impacts
Great message, but heaven almighty this is a Big Kahuna of a repost! My comment is on your Lemmy post of a Tumblr Note of a Reddit comment and post of a Quora question and answer…
Oh man, I’m actually going through a whole mess of shit right now, but this was absolutely not a call for help. Was sick for months culminating in debilitating reactive arthritis and because of this missed out on some time with my grandmother during her last days. We were very close, I had lived with her for a while during my childhood. She just recently passed and it’s been tough, but I’m doing ok all things considered. Thanks for asking.
Glad to hear you’re pulling through! Condolences; that’s pretty rough. The arthritis getting in the way definitely wasn’t your fault. Hope you can look back on those good childhood memories with her :)
I’m sorry to hear you’re going through a hard time. just know your not alone. life is rough out there for a lot of us. recently I was falsely accused of rape by someone I was dating. top that off, my mom just got admitted to the hospital this morning for some serious medical stuff. I’ve only had one friend who I haven’t seen in years checkin to see if I was ok. it’s sad to see but makes be grateful. wish you the best man! we deserve better but we do the best we can. stay strong brother
Though others have pointed out alternative interpretations of the poll (such as merely disagreeing with the label, not the ideals, of feminism), I am going to voice the minority opinion here: the straightforward interpretation may be right. In fact, I unfortunately find it completely plausible. Millennials, after all, went through ten formative years of #MeToo and BLM, the biggest protests for equality in a century. The younger generation aren’t going through a cultural revolution anywhere near that scale. Things have quieted down, and sentiment may have regressed to the mean.
I also think people may be underestimating how powerful rightwing bro media has become, with radical figures becoming mainstream like Jordan Peterson and Joe Rogan, etc. I don’t see many countervailing feminist voices with as much reach, especially those targeting impressionable boys. I’m not sure about any of this, and I know some may not like to hear the alarm, but I think we need to be realistic about the possibility.
There are also things like dating apps to consider. More and more adults are finding their relationships through dating apps, and women can be pretty disrespectful (obviously this doesn’t mean that men aren’t disrespectful as well).
“Must be 6’0”, have a steady job, must worship me, I hate men if you know what I mean" etc. See too much of that shit, go too long without any matches (alongside things like porn addiction giving you a skewed perspective on what sex/relationships are) and it’s hard not to take it personally.
This isn’t to say the young men are faultless, by any means. Just something that adds fuel to the fire.
I haven’t been in the dating world for quite a while but I assumed that type of profile was pretty rare and just commonly posted online to be ridiculed. Is that not the case?
While it’s probably rare to find a profile with everything I listed , many profiles have at least one of the things I mentioned. Most common one I’ve seen from the list is being unwilling to date men below 6 feet tall. Second most would have to be the “men r bad” or some variation of that.
I’m not comfortable blaming women for how horrible dating is, but I take your point that people can sometimes be pretty disrespectful.
But given that we’re making a comparative claim between generations, I wonder if this really explains the difference. Is disrespect on dating apps so much worse for gen Z men than Millennial men that it’s making men less feminist? I’m skeptical.
I would not blame women for how bad dating apps are either. But I think the average person would say something like “the women in my area suck” or “women just don’t like me” before they think the design of the app itself is part of the problem. Does that make them less feminist? Still probably not, but it could push them towards pickup artists type guys if they are really frustrated.
Or women could just lower their standards if they don’t think anyone is good enough for them. That’s basically what men have been told for ages, that women don’t need to go about changing themselves to meet the standards of men. Surely the same operates in reverse, no? If women don’t like their prospects, they can either lower their bar or stay single since men don’t need to change themselves to please women?
I mean, the point of the article is the women who are struggling to find suitable partners. The attitude that woman should just lower their standards (and yet again just accept higher workloads and lower efforts from their partners) is pretty antifeminist. The problem here isn't that they have unattainable standards, it's that a lot of men aren't putting in effort to meet those basic standards, for whatever reason.
Well, maybe they are looking in the wrong place. Or they just have unobtainable standards.
The article treats it like a onesided issue, which when you are dealing with people, it’s not. There isn’t an easy way of dealing with this issue and the ‘men bad’ vibe this article gives off isn’t adding to the solution. It doesn’t offer solutions, suggestions or even a second viewpoint.
The problem here isn’t that they have unattainable standards, it’s that a lot of men aren’t putting in effort to meet those basic standards, for whatever reason.
Are men obligated to meet those standards if they have no interest in doing so? Men don’t just exist for the sake of giving women someone to date, after all. And while the article was (I hesitate to say intentionally) vague about specifics, one thing it mentioned multiple times was holding a college degree. It’s hardly what I’d call “basic standards”, considering it takes a huge amount of time, and a fair deal of money to achieve. Of all the men I’ve talked with, myself included, that “standard” doesn’t seem to be prevalent, with the closest thing being “I guess it would be cool”.
At what point does the principle of “if everywhere you go smells like shit” start applying to these women who date but seem to never find a man that meet their standards? It only seems reasonable if nobody meets the standards, that the standards may be a major part of the issue.
And I don’t mean to say that women should just settle for men they don’t like, but “just stay single” is always an option, one men are told repeatedly whenever they struggle with relationships.
You have some good points I hadn't considered before, so thank you for that. It's definitely something I'll have to think about more. It's also worth mentioning that the difference between women who couldn't find a suitable male partner vs men who couldn't find a suitable female partner also really isn't very much - "nearly half" vs "one third", which was something I also wasn't really considering when I made my comments. Ultimately it seems like a complicated issue that isn't going to be fixed with one simple solution
Ultimately it seems like a complicated issue that isn’t going to be fixed with one simple solution
Now this I agree with wholeheartedly. My primary issue with the article is that it takes a grievance mindset rather than a problem solving one. It just reads like the women’s equivalent of some incel rant, in the sense that it externalizes the issue such that it’s always someone else’s responsibility to do something about, which doesn’t help solve anything.
The standard doesn't necessarily apply in reverse if you look at how the work is split between male and female partners in hetero relationships - it's often skewed that the woman does a lot more emotional work, household work, and childcare, on top of also having full time jobs. I think you're right though, if men aren't meeting women's standards, then women should either be content to be single, hook up with other women (for those who would prefer), or reexamine how important romantic relationships are for them.
if men aren’t meeting women’s standards, then women should either be content to be single, hook up with other women, or reexamine how important romantic relationships are for them.
I take issue with the part that is bold and italisied. Not sure what you are saying, but it seems like a gross misunderstanding how people work.
Obviously that part only applies to people who are bisexual/pansexual/gay. I'm not saying that hetero women should just become gay >.< Though I realize it sounds like that, it isn't what I meant.
Well, considering dating takes at least 2 people (depending on how you live your life, and yes non-monagamy and polyamory are vaild), asking only one group is incredibly biased.
Please explain how this isn’t a bigoted point of view
Ms. Kearney, for example, acknowledges that improving men’s economic position, especially men without college degrees, is an important step toward making them more attractive partners.
This is why you’re not taken seriously. In other words you’ve shown how completely irrational you are. No point trying to have a rational conversation with someone so completely out of line and irrational.
What about all the unfuckable women? Again you look at everything one sided.
Both sexes need to get better. You’re saying that it’s all up to the men. In other words what you’re saying is women don’t have to be responsible for anything, they can act any way they want. A very entitled and selfish attitude.
Did you ever consider that this toxic mentality DRIVES AWAY the good men? Maybe good men want nothing to do with you because of your mentality. That leaves only the toxic men to put up with your bullshit, so that’s all you see.
They aren’t shooting up night clubs, marauding through cities, or lashing out violently out of sexual frustration and a lack of purpose.
Men are doing those things. Look, I get that ‘both sides’ impulse, but unfuckable women don’t pose an existential risk to society, and to be honest, women have to be pretty far gone to qualify as unfuckable.
Angry women aren’t as violent or dangerous as angry men, and the social validation most men are cultured to seek through income, physical prowess, and social success is not as accessible as it once was.
When I was little I noticed that all the father’s were just absent. It seemed to me then that the role of ‘dad’ had been demoted to a placeholder and was existentially diminished in terms of meaning and value. This has a deleterious effect on the sense of purpose of many young men, myself included, but it doesn’t have to define us.
Women are seizing an opportunity for their own self actualization from the oppressive society we live in to find purpose and meaning. Maybe some more men need to do the same.
The thing is no one is arguing that men don’t suck. Plenty of men out there are garbage.
What you’re glossing over is the fact that women have lots of issues as well. There is no shortage of psycho women with deep issues.
Go talk to a “good” man and get their perspective on dating. You’ll get a different picture and you’ll see women are chock full of their own issues. It’s just a different flavor.
The problem is you’ll never do that because you hate men and have no interest in a genuine conversation. Instead it’s all “woe is me, all men suck”.
If you can’t find a good man, it’s not that they don’t exist, but rather you don’t attract them. Maybe work on your attitude and you won’t come off as toxic with tons of baggage and maybe then they will give you a shot.
I like to think that I am a good man, and I know my girlfriend is a good woman.
I know that I wasn’t really ready for the seriousness of relationship some of my ex’s wanted with me and I had to grow up, but I also remember frustrations with some of them not being mature and self reliant enough to be a reliable partner.
I am very fortunate to be on good terms and friendly with many of my previous partners, and I’m lucky to have been in love several times in my life. I know I am a better person because of the love I have shared and that which has been shared with me.
I’ve seen shitty groups of women do things I thought only happened in strawman arguments, like protest a college club of minority men sharing legal and social resources relevant to their community because ‘mens rights is anti feminist’ or other nonsense. I have also seen men joke about vaginal credit card and bitch about their own odious unfuckablity in the same breath.
People can be shitty, that doesn’t mean you need to make assumptions about them. If you give most people a chance, they will tell you who they are.
The TLDR is that not every one sucks and some times you need to give people a chance.
No disagreement there, but I am not seeing how this aligns with the discussion we are having.
At the end of the day not everyone sucks. Putting all of the blame on one sex is disingenuous. Both men and women can be fucked up. There are plenty of good men struggling to find good women. There are plenty of good women struggling to find good men. The world is chock full of assholes for both sexes.
It works both ways but you’re only looking in one direction. Based on everything you said in your last post it sounds a lot like you agree with me, you just don’t want to admit it.
This is the definition of a strawman. You’re fitting an argument the other person never made.
Except this thread is chock full of you all doing this exact thing.
Listen, nothing will change that there are shitty men out there. Nothing will change that there are also shitty women out there. If you can’t find a decent guy it isn’t because they don’t exist, it’s because YOU aren’t attracting them. This is a YOU problem.
Biggest issue with the article. NO male voices, and it’s repeating the same lines I have heard since the mid 00’s.
Now I acknowledge that there hasn’t been much movement on the dating front, but men are only half the problem, as they are only half the population.
They would change in a hurry as a group if they needed to, but men aren’t a monolith and neither are women.
You want men to be better, be better yourself. The article is garbage by saying men need to step up while not talking to them about the issues they face in the dating world. ESPECIALLY if they aren’t Hetronormative.
An article that wonders why people aren’t getting married says they went out and only asked one side what the problem was. 🤔
Doesn’t even seem balanced…
Edit: as a romance favourable aroace, the dating world was a nightmare, even if you do everything “right”. Which is why I no longer look to find companionship.
Do better or not, there are garbage people in all genders and the prevailing “men bad” when it comes to dating is just as toxic as what the men are doing.
The article also doesn’t suggest any possible solutions.
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