after more than 25 years using linux I could not care less about those dramas, when my distro will drop xorg I’ll switch and that’s it. I’ve got way too much stuff to implement myself already, there is no time for that. I mean, I’ve even embraced systemd…
sorry, my rhetorical question was obviously intended as why I should bother. I don’t see any value in stopping you doing whatever you think is better for you, in fact it is exactly what annoys me the most :)
Well Xorg is pretty much unmaintained and is on its death bed. Modern hardware and software are slowly favoring Wayland due to it being much simpler by design.
To provide features that Xorg can't.
If you don't need features like fractional scaling, VRR, touchscreen gestures, etc. you won't notice a difference.
People who do use those, will. Because for them, those features would be missing or not complete on Xorg.
mmmh, I bet I will not notice any difference also if I don’t do shit and keep whatever is working until the day I’ll have to switch because my distro drops the packages 🤷🏼
I wish that was my experience, but Nvidia drivers on KDE Wayland have had a lot of oddities and issues that have caused me to go back to Xorg every time I’ve tried (12 times and counting). Wayland is a good move in the right direction, and I look forward to it, but it’s still being implemented.
Oh absolutely, this isn’t to say “Wayland bad”, it’s just to say that a large number of people may not have a smooth transition, so it’s hard to say “just do it”
It was a birthday gift from my wife, and lets not alienate people who don’t know computer hardware very well and pick up something from Best Buy. I agree that Nvidia sucks, and many of the issues are indeed their fault, but we also can’t neglect the fact that they own the vast majority of the market.
I’ve been a Linux user since the 90s, and nvidia has been a problem as long as I can remember. The wayland issues are just a new chapter in a long saga. ATI used to be the same, but they came around after having been bought by AMD.
If you’re already planning to use Linux on something a quick search will directly tell you that nvidia is a problem. If you got the hardware before nvidia that sucks - but again, it’s nvidias fault.
I think we absolutely should neglect nvidias market share, and just fully drop support for nvidia cards - either they’ll get pressured by angry users to no longer behave like dicks, or they keep doing it, and people will only make the mistake of buying nvidia once (or not use Linux) - either way, we’ll have gotten rid of a massive headache.
Running AMD/AMD right now for cpu/gfx, and I’m happy with my gaming laptop (and it’s price point).
Linux support and general support of open source was amajor factor in my decision. Intel is also really good on the CPU front, but I want to support AMD for its ooen source and speedy graphics offerings.
Also quite important to make sure we don’t have just a single strong x86 vendor - even though currently looking at price/performance you’d almost always go for AMD.
The time before ryzen was horrible - a 4-core-CPU was considered high end, and if you needed something more you needed to go for ridiculously overpriced Xeons. Similar for servers - you could get slightly higher core counts there, but when going for more than 8 cores it’d also get expensive very quickly.
Now we’re talking about 16 cores in high end notebook, and 64 cores in still reasonably priced pro workstations.
Eventually people will have to get new hardware. That’s the moment to avoid nVidia, that’s how simple this can be.
Also, the problem is nVidia giving shitty Wayland support, not Wayland providing no nVidia support. It’s nVidia who has to write the drivers since they themselves opted to keep their implementation details a secret. There’s nothing the Wayland people can do except plea, beg and shame. If nVidia then decide not to care, then I say fuck them.
Not supporting Nvidia cards will make Wayland unusable for at least half the Linux desktop users, probably more. Stats I recall range from 50-75%.
“Just buy non-Nvidia” is not, I repeat, a simple option. Lots of people stick with old GPU models because the price/performance ratio has gone out the window and they cannot afford to drop hundreds or thousands on one. Many others have Nvidia in their laptops.
There’s nothing preventing Wayland from working with Nvidia except the political insistence that it be open sourced. Which Nvidia is not interested in, never was, and never will be. And it’s a red herring to begin with.
TLDR either Wayland bends their stance on open source or their adoption will be severely limited.
Nvidia will feel enough pressure (likely from the ML / HPC space?) to provide open kernelspace support that they’ll actually make that happen.
Which… Has already happened.
Nvidia took a lot of the kernelspace logic that used to be in their proprietary driver, re-architected their GPUs to move that logic into a firmware blob (GSP).
And last year they released a completely Free driver that intefaces with GSP.
This allowed Nouveau developers to finally access critical features like power management (which were basically behind a wall of DRM, as Nvidia used legal and technical measures to lock Nouveau out of their firmware).
Now Nouveau has a new shader compiler, Vulcan support is growing rapidly, and people like me will soon prefer the Mesa stack for Nvidia over Nvidia’s own drivers.
And you can bet that Nouveau will work great with all of the Wayland compositors.
This is really the exact wrong point in history to be making the argument you’re trying to make 🤣.
Wow you got that backwards. They don’t do any of that for the sake of Nouveau or Vulkan or Wayland or whatever. They don’t care what people use their open scraps for.
They open up the minimum they can get away with because it’s ultimately meaningless — their proprietary stuff is still hidden away and it’s not like you can use the parts they open with anything else.
This, btw, applies to AMD and Intel too. The only choice you get with proprietary hardware that you have to use (like GPUs) is whose dick you want to suck. They’re not your friend and they won’t let community pressure then into decisions.
Every change will bring it’s fair share of complainers, not much we can do about that. LILO to GRUB, SysV to systemd and now X11 to Wayland. No one is forcing your hand (unless you use a pre-packaged distro like Ubuntu/Fedora, in which case you go with whatever the distro provides), keep using X11 if you want stability, if you wanna dip your toes in bleeding-edge software and increase it’s userbase to show hardware manufacturers that their drivers need to be updated (I’m looking at you, NVIDIA) then feel free to mess around.
Eventually the day will come when Wayland apps will simply not launch on X11 and you’ll migrate too.
In case of Gnome it was addressed, just by different people. Gnome 2 continues to live on as MATE, so anyone who doesn't like Gnome 3 can use it instead.
I don’t understand why anyone ever expects a different outcome. They fork something that has quite some investment into the original version. How do they expect to keep up?
There were news about Ubuntu doing it too some time ago, maybe they realized it’s not feasible yet. I don’t follow their development as I don’t use those distros
Go tell Fedora that then lol. They want it gone to the point where Nate is telling users who want X to stay away on that post. Xwayland I believe will still be around though.
They’ll recant after their usage drops to a fraction. This move makes zero sense no matter how you look at it. As a generalist distro it’s too early to drop X.
If they want to become a niche distro whose only claim to fame is “we only pack Plasma 6”, big whoop, like there’s any shortage of that. What kind of distro defines itself by what it does not offer? And is that the kind of distro that Fedora aims to be?
lmfao Wayland is already ready for over 90% of use cases. Hell, GNOME has been wayland-default since twenty-fucking-sixteen if I remember my dates right. You’re overestimating the value X.Org provides.
It was not sysv to systemD, and it was forced (by making udev not work without it).
Other then nvidia, wayland is still missing some protocols (example: what virtual desktop you want your window to be on). But those protocols are (still) being worked on. And you will always be able to run x11 programs on wayland.
The advantages of wayland are a more direct path to hardware, and trowing away lots of code.
I’d say that’s already becoming the case in a few places. Hyprland isn’t just “Wayland good”, it’s “You should use Wayland good”.
Yes, I know the devs behind it act like pissants. That’s bad and I’m sorry for liking their software. I use Emacs too and RMS was kind of an asshole. Hell, I use Lemmy even though one of the devs has slighted me on more than one occasion.
… has gotten some help and is now a pretty well-adjusted human being, who still tells right wing trolls to go suck it, and still tells paid professionals that they should have known better when they should have known better, but in language that isn’t abusive.
I think you’re like 5 years behind on this. It’s true, just read up on it. Linus took time off after criticism for his language got too much. And he improved by a lot. You’ll find no more name calling directed at contributors after a certain date.
I daily drive Hyprland too, there are some shortcomings with how the mouse behaves with XWayland but I don’t think it’s a Hyprland issue and Gamescope remedies that problem so overall, it’s a great experience.
No, they’re discussing the way forward and what they think makes sense. In fact, they’re even clearly stating that there will be pain, because Wayland intentionally does less than X11. And they’re encouraging people with unsolved pain points to speak up.
Backwards compatibility forever sounds great, but the technical debt eventually becomes a giant fucking limitation on improvement. They chose not to stay backwards compatible for a reason.
I agree that at some point you have to be able to ditch technical debt, but you still should be able to do more or less the same things with the new system as with the old system and that’s currently still not the case.
The problem is that the architecture of Wayland and the organization around it themselves impose limitations that have a chilling effect on development for it. One issue is that Wayland has been deliberately left very slim, leaving a lot of complexity and implementation details up to the compositor. A compositor can be seen as something that approaches the size and complexity of an entire X display server. This means that if someone wants to create a window manager, they have to implement a whole compositor first. So instead of writing window manager code, which is what the developer is probably the most interested in, they are spending most of their time implementing the compositor.
Naturally this also leads to a lot of duplication of effort. For example: GNOME, KDE and the window managers that have implemented a wayland version each have their own compositor that by and large does the same thing.
Another issue is the standardization of the protocols and interfaces that the different compositors use, or lack thereof. There is a steering group containing the major stakeholders that votes on proposed extensions, but good proposals often get shot down because the major stakeholders can’t agree on it and sometimes ego or principles gets in the way. And then you have cases where one compositor just goes their own way and implements something regardless of what the others do.
For example, as a result of this there’s still no standard screen capture API, so if you want to do things like screenshots, remote desktop, desktop streaming, … whether or not you can do that, and with which tool, depends on the compositor you use. Another example: they’re currently still bickering over whether or not an application should be allowed to place windows with absolute coordinates, and how that should be implemented. We’re currently 15 years after initial release of Wayland…
In my opinion, this is all completely backwards. Both in an organizational and technical sense way too much has been left up to the individual compositors that should have been a core part of Wayland itself.
Unfortunately, it’s all too late to fix this. We’re 15 years into Wayland development, and the flawed architecture has been set in stone. Wayland isn’t going to go away soon either, too many parties are invested in it. So for me the reasonable thing to do is to wait and stick with X11 until the dust settles and something emerges on the other side that is better than what I currently have.
This means that if someone wants to create a window manager, they have to implement a whole compositor first. So instead of writing window manager code, which is what the developer is probably the most interested in, they are spending most of their time implementing the compositor.
wlroots has existed for almost 7 years and this misconception is still repeated.
I know wlroots exists. It’s a library that helps you implement a compositor (i.e. does some of the heavy lifting), but at the end of the day the window manager developer is still implementing a compositor and is responsible for maintaining his compositor.
The mere fact that wlroots, and other efforts like louvre, are necessary at all actually prove my point that it was an idiotic design to push everything off into “compositors”.
Yes. And it’s a bad analogy. Nobody is expecting you to be able to take a barge on railways. But existing linux applications are being expected to run on Wayland. As I said - railways didn’t replace canals - they’re different types of things.
Within the last 10 years and the next 5 years, software using old hacks instead of GUI toolkits are expected to switch, yes.
People can choose to continue to use X11 until KDE Plasma 6 hits Debian stable.
I don’t see a problem. Nobody forces Wayland onto anyone yet, except for bleeding edge distributions like Fedora. And unless you’ve been severely misled, you should know what you signed up for when you installed Fedora.
I didn’t say there was a problem. I’m saying it’s pretty disingenuous to act like Wayland isn’t intended as a replacement for X11. All of which you seem to agree with. As you say “nobody forces Wayland onto anyone yet” (emphasis mine).
Also - I just love how your comment is written like a politician would have written it. “Sure you can use the dirty old X11 if you really want to, or you can use the nice new God-fearing Wayland”.
If you bring the two parts of your comment together and dial back the assumptions of bad faith, you’ll get a consistent picture:
Wayland is a blank slate replacement for how to do window management on Linux. At some point it’ll become the standard for software that’s new or maintained. Unmaintained software that doesn’t talk to the internet and is therefore safe to run even with security holes will continue to be supported via XWayland. The giant scope and API surface is part of the reason why it’s deprecated. Maintainers are expected to target the new way to do things going forward, because there are people able and willing to maintain that support (many of those people former X11 maintainers who are looking forward to stop having to deal with that legacy behemoth)
That’s the state of things I wanted to express. Not my opinion, no agenda, just how I understand the situation.
Yeah sorry. But when you look at the events building europeen railways. More so in the UK as we had a huge canal system built in a few decades. But most of Europe denser areas.
Railways were very much a replacement for the to slow canal system.
Canals built a huge industry allowing manufacturers to ship goods to cities while shipping resources from the mines and farms etc.
But industries like meat fish milk and strongly enough market gardening (fresh flowers) were very limited to local areas before the railways. Took off hugely when the railways intentionally set up in direct competition to the canals.
Canals survived for a while moving the slower stuff. But started needing to redesign to support bigger and more boats faster. Before finally closing down.
The UK and most of Europe rebuilt/renovated them as a leasure activity from the 1950s. But most of the late 1800 to early 1900s railways vcompanies actually worked to replace and put canal companies out of business.
Passenger rail really was not a big thing untill about the 1920s.
We’re getting well away from the topic now. It depends on what you mean by “replace”. Railways and canals exist side-by-side as different solutions to similar problems - sure. And some railways have replaced some canals. But the panama canal will not be replaced by a railroad for example. It couldn’t do the same job. The pros/cons of each option depends on many factors.
The analogy is poor for comparing software. Linux distros will likely replace X11 with Wayland over time. To do the same thing that X11 was doing. It will be replaced “in place”. The very same thing you were using with X11 will now need to work on Wayland. This would be like running your barges on the railroad? Maybe? Depending on how you squint?
I wouldn’t expect my barge to work on the railroad. I do expect that Firefox will run on Wayland after having used it on X11 for 20 years.
But as a user of a barge if you needed wanted to use railways. Because they are faster. It would be the barge maker or a new train maker you would look at. Not the railway.
Just like canals X11 still exists. And is still being developed. It has its limitations but some applications are choosing not to port. Because like barge makers. They simply do not see the need. Or merit.
If the makers of railways insisted that all current users agents had to work on them without adaption. Many of the advantages would no longer be there.
Just as if waylaid did not expect Firefox et al to adapt to its methods. The security and other advantages they seek would not be practice.
Waylaid is a replacement. Not an upgrade.
(PS yeah living in the UK replace canal with inland waterways navigation. Tends to be how we think of it. As they are such a huge part of our industrial history. I forget the US really never went through that part of europeen industrial development. Your example is a fairly unique and modern by comparison, it dose not link to any network. Where as the inland waterways accross the UK and parts of Europe were a linked inferstructure like our railways. When the railways in Europe were built. They were very much seen as a replacement to our existing canal system. By both the corperations set up to build the inferstructure and the media of the time. It is literally a part of our industrial history thought is schools here. As so much of our culture and industrial revolution is built around the events)
Would be interesting if this is more on Firefox side, or on compositor side. I’ve been running Firefox in Wayland for about 9 months now, without any issues.
this is a wayland issue. Due to how wayland works, it cannot drop messages, this means if the messages stop being accepted (IE. the program becomes very slow and not very responsive) the application will wind up dying. EEVDF helped resolve a lot of these issues. but they arent gone yet.
a fairly easy replication cause is to start a large rust project compile since cargo will thread to oblivion if it gets the chance, then use the PC on wayland. Applications can frequently die, Firefox, MPV, Kate, gnome web, chromium, games, etc. it also doesn’t matter what compositor you use right now as gnome, kde sway all share the issue
EEVDF really does help stop a lot of these crashing though
You’re describing Wayland running into issues due to overall high system load, and not been given enough scheduler time to accept messages?
edit: This issue? gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/…/159 - didn’t find anything else matching the description, and personally have never seen that, both on my low specs notebook or my workstation, which probably counts as higher spec.
correct, this is the same issue, this generally really only happens with a sustained all core workload that will consistently leave you cpu at 100%, since if it’s not sustained, the kernel will allot some time to the programs, and the crash wont happen
I agree. The proxy solution they’re proposing seems like a band-aid on a fundamental design issue to me. It’s easier to just tack yet another library onto a big project than to refactor large amounts of code. This is exactly why a lot of software is getting more and more shit.
Also this is the kind of issues Wayland will be facing now that it’s starting to see widespread adoption, issues that arise from more and more complex situations created by interconnecting more apps with it in more ways.
How the devs handle this will be crucial and imo it can make or break the project in the long run. It’s one thing to successfully run a hobby project at a small scale, it’s another to shoulder the entire Linux desktop for the foreseeable future. That’s the bar that X had to meet; if Wayland intends to be the Linux desktop it has to step up. “Not our problem, deal with it outside Wayland” will not do.
while this is good on theory, when your CPU is being absolutely hammered, you need to re-adjust priorities to make a system responsive again, it’s actually not a simple thing to do without a context aware scheduler. Even though EEVDF is pretty good, it still struggles some times
Ah. For me it’s not the search bar only but also if I select text and press Ctrl+C/press context menu Copy as well.
Interestingly, if sites put something in the clipboard (eg. Mastodon toot Copy link button) it works anywhere else.
I had to force it to run in xwayland because in wayland it no longer remembers window positions, so with wayland it was opening all my windows in a big pile on the current desktop, instead of putting them in the positions and on the desktops they belong.
That sounds more like a compositor problem - typically a client should not have control over where windows are placed, and that X11 allowed that got heavily abused with negative impact on UI. Wayland fortunately fixed that, so it is now up to the compositor where to place windows. Those can send hints, but the compositor is free to ignore them.
In your situation your compositor should remember where to stick the windows.
And if I ever browse away from that page and forget to return to it before closing firefox…
This has a million caveats and isn’t even close to a solution for how I use firefox. Each desktop has their own windows and I want them to stay there because the tabs open are relevant to that desktop.
TLDR: Debian will stop producing 32-bit iso installer images. You can still use 32-bit applications. This will stop you from installing the newest version of Debian on a 32-bit processor. That’s all.
I’d rather use some sbc on rk3588, tho. It shouldn’t be too hard to pack one of SBCs with it into a laptop case given they often expose eDP (which laptop displays use) or mipi dsi (which is convertible to eDP, but I’m not sure here).
Otherwise, it’s good to have an option to run a proper os on such a low-spec machine. Windows on 4gb ram, eesh
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