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ValueSubtracted, in Repetitive Epics
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

I think you might be able to draw a parallel with long-running serials like comic books, or even Star Trek itself. They tend to revisit old themes and revolve around a certain status quo.

They tend not to involve multigenerational obedience to an authoritarian regime, though…

inappropriatecontent,

Isn’t there a version of Superman where he lands in Siberia instead of Saskatchewan and ends up a good Soviet citizen?

ValueSubtracted,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar
JungleJim,

Now I want a Canadian superman. I think he was originally from Kansas. Well, first Krypton, but later Kansas.

T156, in Subspace, Real Space, Warp Bubbles and a proposal as to how *Star Trek* Warp Drive might work

(Mostly copying the comment I did on the other places for visibility)

it is implied the nacelles assist with impulse operations (SNW: “Memento Mori”)

At the same time, that seems to be contradicted by ships that have no/limited warp capacity having impulse. The Constellation, sibling of the Enterprise, still retained impulse capabilities, in spite of the warp drive being turned into a pile of slag, and it’s implied that the Hathaway also retained impulse, despite the warp core being non-functional. It wouldn’t be much of a simulated combat if the Hathaway could only sit there.

It is clear, though, that subspace has its own physical laws and its own special frame of reference, one of which is that you can exceed the speed of light in it: for example, the use of subspace radio which transmits at, in TNG times, Warp 9.997 (approximately 79,000c).

What’s surprising is that subspace signals aren’t that much faster than a given starship is. At full tilt, the Sovereign is almost as fast as the radio signal it’s transmitting, and later generations of starships might well match, or even surpass it.

So what if generating a warp field is like domain amplification, creating a bubble of a subspace domain that encloses the ship? This subspace or warp bubble is then shaped by the nacelles, which distorts space locally, allowing the bubble and the ship to be propelled along at FTL speed. This is because while inside the bubble, the rules of subspace apply, not the relativistic rules of real space. It therefore becomes possible to exceed c in that special frame of reference. And yet, the bubble is still strongly connected to real space, so the ship can interact with objects outside the bubble. This explains the existence of Newtonian forces like inertia, acceleration and momentum still acting on the ship, and the continuing need for inertial dampers at warp.

At the same time, if they can do that, you might expect that the warp field could then be used as a shield against alterations in the flow of time, or that being in a warp field would be extremely bad for anyone on board who’s relying on biochemistry or conventional physics to live.

This tight coupling to real space is also why we can see “stars” streaking by while in warp (more likely dust particles in real space being accelerated as they are caught in the ship’s warp bubble). The visual change in post-DIS Trek where the outside of the ship looks more like a Stargate-ish tunnel can be explained away as what the interior of the warp bubble looks like stretched out, as the ship speeds along within it like a canoe on a river, being propelled by layers of warp energy within the bubble and also carried along by the current within the bubble itself as it cruises along.

In TNG, we see both, with the tunnel seeming to be a transitory state as the ship accelerates to warp speed. But treating visuals as literal seems like an exercise in futility. There’s a whole bunch of exotic physics we’re not privy to that go on, in much the same way that a Q do not use warp drives for their powers (despite the similar effect), and people don’t disappear in a puff of light when transporting.

So this further suggests that the TNG Tech Manual c values are meant to reflect speeds in subspace, or rather the ship’s velocity within the warp bubble, which translates to faster velocities and thus further distances travelled in real space. In effect the ship, by surrounding itself with a subspace domain, creates its own shortcut/wormhole through real space.

At the same time, using a subspace distance unit that conflicts with a realspace distance unit seems like it would cause more trouble than not. If anything, were that to be the case, you’d expect the Federation to have a separate distance for subspace travel, just to avoid people getting confused if there is a disparity between realspace and subspace.

It’d be like giving Calorie two different definitions. Does a 200 Calorie food mean that it has 200 Calories, or 200 KiloCalories, and someone’s just used shorthand?

khaosworks,
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

(also copying my answer from the other place)

Good points, but to address a couple of them:

At the same time, that seems to be contradicted by ships that have no/limited warp capacity having impulse. The Constellation, sibling of the Enterprise, still retained impulse capabilities, in spite of the warp drive being turned into a pile of slag, and it’s implied that the Hathaway also retained impulse, despite the warp core being non-functional. It wouldn’t be much of a simulated combat if the Hathaway could only sit there.

I’m not suggesting that if warp drive gives out that impulse cannot be used. It obviously can be from the examples you’ve quoted, but I’d say that without the warp assist (from internal driver coils or external nacelles), it’s less efficient and speed would be reduced. From SNW: “Memento Mori” itself:

PIKE: How fast can you push impulse?

ORTEGAS: The starboard nacelle is half-damaged. I can get us about half speed.

Given the Tech Manual’s idea of incorporating warp drivers into impulse engines, I thought this fit in nicely as well with the idea of using a warp field’s mass-lowering properties to assist impulse operations.

At the same time, if they can do that, you might expect that the warp field could then be used as a shield against alterations in the flow of time, or that being in a warp field would be extremely bad for anyone on board who’s relying on biochemistry or conventional physics to live.

Coincidentally, Sternbach and Okuda have thought about those effects, because the Tech Manual makes passing reference to Starfleet safety standards for subspace field exposure in talking about the inertial dampening system:

The IDF operates by maintaining a low-level forcefield throughout the habitable volume of the spacecraft. This field averages 75 millicochranes with field differential limited to 5.26 nanocochranes/meter, per SFRA-standard 352.12 for crew exposure to subspace fields.

Like many things, they kind of gloss over them, but those millicochrane levels are pretty low, so there must be some kind of protective measure to mitigate against too much direct exposure to subspace. Perhaps it’s in the material hulls and EVA suits are made of? Maybe any deleterious subspace radiation can be blocked easily.

At the same time, using a subspace distance unit that conflicts with a realspace distance unit seems like it would cause more trouble than not. If anything, were that to be the case, you’d expect the Federation to have a separate distance for subspace travel, just to avoid people getting confused if there is a disparity between realspace and subspace.

Although, for practical purposes since ultimately the ship is moving through real space anyway despite being enclosed in a subspace bubble, it all evens out in the wash. I mean, when we’re saying Warp 3 is 39c (TNG scale), we still have to ask ourselves 39c relative to what? And the answer to that might be relative to subspace as a frame of reference, and the distance travelled is simply expressed in real space terms.

StillPaisleyCat,
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

There are any number of shuttles lacking warp drive capability that have impulse drives. It seems clear that they need not be interlinked systems. Also, impulse drives still function when a warp core has been jettisoned.

khaosworks, (edited )
@khaosworks@startrek.website avatar

As I’ve noted, I’m not saying impulse doesn’t function in the absence of warp. Warp makes impulse more efficient.

Also, by the mid-24th Century, impulse engines have driver coils build in which produce sublight warp fields to aid in impulse operations.

buckykat, in Temporal Prime Directive: Get Out of Jail Free?

The unspoken thing about the Prime Directive is that a Federation Captain’s most solemn duty is deciding when to ignore it, and the same goes for the Temporal Prime Directive.

ApostleO,

Sure, but what about random crewmen, like in my example? Are they expected to make such a decision?

buckykat,

They should take it to their captain

ValueSubtracted, in Temporal Prime Directive: Get Out of Jail Free?
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

As far as I know, the directive mainly applies to officers who are sent back in time and/or given the opportunity to change established history. I don’t think it would prevent someone from making an arrest in their “proper” time.

At most, it might limit their ability to interrogate the prisoner, if they can verify that the intruder is from the future and possesses knowledge that the contemporary officers can’t have.

ApostleO,

I guess I assumed a sort of corollary.

Starfleet personnel ends up back in time on a Starfleet vessel. We both serve the same organization. My duty is to protect the timeline I come from. Your duty seems, implicitly, to aid a fellow Starfleet officer in their mission (to protect the aforementioned timeline).

It seems like Starfleet should have a dedicated Temporal Security crew on every starship and starbase for such an occasion. You find a supposed time traveler, you immediately call this team. They sequester the intruder and go through a careful interview to verify their claim as cleanly as possible, then render what aid is needed to secure the timeline and get them home (or, barring that possibility, get them somewhere isolated where they can’t contaminate the timeline). Then, maybe memory wipe the Temporal Security team (and possibly anyone else who interacted with the traveler). On the flipside, if you end up back in time, it’s expected you should immediately attempt to contact the local Temporal Security crew.

GregorGizeh, (edited ) in Vulcan Sex Workers

From that voyager episode with horny belana we learn that Vulcans are basically assigned a mate, so the chances are slim that a vulcan would need release without an outlet. And aside from that, the ponfarr can also be dealt with through meditation and discipline, probably particularly created for the situations you mention where there actually is no partner available.

qantravon,

Vorik and Tuvok both claim the problem can be dealt with through meditation, but both of them also fail to resolve the issue in this way, so we don’t know if that’s actually an effective treatment.

There’s also lots of ways a Vulcan could end up single, not to mention we’ve seen at least two instances of Vulcans rejecting their arranged marriages (T’Pol and T’Pring), so there’s no guarantee any given Vulcan has a mate, despite their customs.

T156,

In the T’Pring case, we also see that sex isn’t the only outlet. A fight to the death is just as effective, with Spock ending up not needing to bed T’Pring, having resolved his Ponn Farr by fighting Kirk.

While the cultural custom is a fight to the death, it is possible that some form of extended, high-stakes physical combat might be enough to relieve things, but Vulcan sensibilities might simply prevent them from choosing that as an option.

qantravon,

This is true, and ultimately fighting is how Vorik’s Pon Farr is resolved as well. So there could also be a Vulcan fight club for those afflicted.

MimicJar, in Vulcan Sex Workers
@MimicJar@lemmy.world avatar

It seems like a Vulcan Mind Meld can cure just about anything.

In “Flashback” from Voyager Tuvok melds with a close family member, in this case Janeway, to fix his disease.

In “Endgame” from Voyager it is implied that a meld will cure Tuvok’s disease.

In “Sarek” from TNG melding with Picard resolves Sarek’s emotional control.

I would expect rather than a sex industry they have those that specialize in mind melds. Perhaps a specific family member.

Having a backup option would still be logical, so random sex is still on the table.

FfaerieOxide,
@FfaerieOxide@kbin.social avatar

I would expect rather than a sex industry they have ... a specific family member.

ewwwwww

BobbyNevada,

I see you have broken both of your arms. How illogical…

T156, (edited )

In “Sarek” from TNG melding with Picard resolves Sarek’s emotional control.

In this case, at least, it was less a cure, and more temporarily offloading it to someone else to deal with. Basically the equivalent of Lwaxana affecting the entire Enterprise when she was going through The Phase, or someone with an injured leg leaning on another person to use as a crutch. Except that Sarek was relying on Picard’s emotional processing capabilities.

Presumably his symptoms would return when he ended the psychic connection.

ColonelSanders, in Vulcan Sex Workers

I always got the impression that Vulcan society operated similar to traditional Japanese or other societies where couples were “arranged” by families. Not sure about the one off cases though so maybe there is some kind of sex industry given the physiological toll if it’s not addressed in time

qantravon,

It does seem to be primarily on an arranged marriage system, but there are plenty of exceptions. Pairings that don’t come together for some reason, partners that die either due to age or accident, etc.

ColonelSanders,

As I recall on Voyager with a little coaxing Tuvok was able to use the holodeck to get “relief” so I’d imagine the same goes for most vulcans who might be on long away missions

qantravon,

It did work for Tuvok, but not for Vorik, so not a totally effective solution.

T156,

I’m not sure that it is. Voyager likely only went with the holodeck solution because they were stranded in the delta quadrant, and no other alternatives were available.

Within the Federation, a Vulcan who felt the Ponn Farr would take leave, like Spock tried to do, or couples would try to serve on the same ship/station together to minimise issues.

inappropriatecontent, in The Leif Ericson Class Incident

If the Leif Ericson class didn’t exist, how could it be in the handbook??!

Wooster,
@Wooster@startrek.website avatar

Asking the deep questions here.

T’Lyn thinks it may be the result of a temporal wake, while Boimler thinks this should be brought to the attention of the Department of Temporal Investigations.

StillPaisleyCat, in Subspace, Real Space, Warp Bubbles and a proposal as to how *Star Trek* Warp Drive might work
@StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website avatar

I’m going to drop in again to say that Albucierre’s particular solution in his doctoral thesis was a mathematical closed form corner solution for tractability.

We shouldn’t take the features of this limited corner case as characteristic of the drive approach. Instead, we need to understand that the point of his thesis was to demonstrate cleanly that this particular solution was viable to get around the FTL problem in general relativity.

The thing is that the inertia being zero is implied one of the assumptions of the corner solution. That is, for tractability, Albucierre assumed that the ship would have no initial velocity that it would take into the warp bubble with it.

It would be mathematically messier and would require a computational approach to relax this assumption and allow the ship to have positive initial velocity, but it’s exactly what some of the folks trying to extend the model and reduce the exotic matter requirement have explored.

All to say that the elaboration of Albucierre’s approach seems likely to take it exactly in the direction of some of the distinctions the OP has noticed.

Th most significant difference that remains is that ships at warp are able observe and to receive information from outside their bubble while this seems inconsistent with a bubble in Alcubierre’s model.

ValueSubtracted, in The Leif Ericson Class Incident
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

The interesting thing about cars like this, in which something is literally erased from reality, is that it’s completely victimless.

One cannot destroy that which never existed to begin with. From that perspective, I’d say Spock made the right call.

NOPper,

Spock just rolls with time travel ever since he went back, pretended he was his distant cousin, and saved his childhood self from venomous space wolves or whatever that was.

Wooster,
@Wooster@startrek.website avatar

I mean, that’s easy to say, because we’re not attached to the Leif Ericsson class or anyone onboard.

But would the same argument be made if instead it was Bajor, or Kronos that disappeared from existence?

HeyThisIsntTheYMCA,
@HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world avatar

Where?

ValueSubtracted,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

Well that’s the thing - something can’t really “disappear from existence,” unless we’re talking about something that did exist and was destroyed.

But if it never existed at all…well, there’s literally nothing lost.

The exception to this would be if Kirk and his crew remembered the Cerritos existing before the time travel shenanigans.

T156, (edited )

But if it never existed at all…well, there’s literally nothing lost.

But from an objective, non-linear perspective, the USS Leif Ericson did exist, before it was erased. A temporal agent with a timeline map would be able to follow the ship across its own personal timeline, until the point where it abruptly ends because the timeline it is currently in caused it to be erased.

It’s similar to the Federation and billions of Borg lives existing and not existing in First Contact, or any of the myriad times the Federation was erased by time travel, and then restored.

ValueSubtracted,
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

Even accepting this to be true, Spock sure wouldn’t have any way of knowing, or any reason to care.

T156, in Temporal Prime Directive: Get Out of Jail Free?

Now you’ve paused, thinking any action could cause a temporal paradox, or damage to the future timeline.

You can also arrest them anyway. Logically, it would fit into the timeline, since if they’re from the future, they should have accounted for those circusmtances, including their arrest in their future timeline. And a scan would show a fair few forms of time travel, which you can use to verify, or any connections that you might have with other temporal entities. Time travel is a bit convenient like that, until everything goes horribly wrong.

But ultimately, nothing actually prevents someone from just out and out lying. They could easily say “oh, sorry, can’t say, Starfleet Intelligence business”, or “I’m here on Captain/Engineering’s orders”, and you’d have that delay in either case to verify the story. The Temporal Prime Directive doesn’t really factor into it.

ValueSubtracted, in Subspace, Real Space, Warp Bubbles and a proposal as to how *Star Trek* Warp Drive might work
@ValueSubtracted@startrek.website avatar

The TNG Technical Manual has another line that I think supports this general idea:

The combination of forces produced within the warp engine core and the flow of space and subspace around the vessel created the particular engineering solution to the problem of faster-than-light travel.

This seems to support the notion that subspace itself is bleeding into real space around the ship, at least to a degree.

edgemaster72, in Raktajino... has liquor in it?
@edgemaster72@lemmy.world avatar

Only when O’Brien makes it

Corgana, in Repetitive Epics
@Corgana@startrek.website avatar

I love this question. My first thought was not a book, but Béla Tarr’s The Turin Horse which depicts the repetitive life of a Hungarian farmer and his daughter. Each day is essentially the same, with similar but ever-changing frustrations, and no hope for change in sight. The audience really feels their frustrations, but the characters also appear to have fully accepted the situation. The title is a reference to the horse-whipping that allegedly drove Nietzsche insane.

Not quite an “epic” in the usual sense, but absolutely repetitive and a surrender to economic powers beyond one’s control.

inappropriatecontent, in Repetitive Epics

I don’t know what the most similar novel to The Neverending Sacrifice might be, but I think the exact opposite is probably the 1970s novels satirizing the British Raj called The Flashman Papers. They are incredibly funny, highly offensive, beautiful assaults on the landed gentry, set during one of the most incompetent, badly failed military expeditions to Afghanistan in the history of badly failed military expeditions to Afghanistan–the British one.

No, not the American one with British help–the actual British one, from way back in the seventeenth century.

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